EPTOn October 31 2015 02:00 Xatalos wrote:
Well I think you can pretty safely say that if my filter is 20+ pages, I'm town
Well I think you can pretty safely say that if my filter is 20+ pages, I'm town
your mah rock babe : P
[M][N] Mini Mafia: The (kinda) Vanilla Experience - Page 169
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gumshoe
Canada3602 Posts
your mah rock babe : P | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
On October 31 2015 02:00 Chromatically wrote: If you disagree with this, you are saying that mafia WILLINGLY chose to kill their partner over GB, when they were already being read as town by everyone in the thread (BH, gumshoe, ritoky, Xatalos all were top towns). There was no reason to bus for town cred when they could have switched to put us in LYLO. Yeah I think it's kind of unlikely for any of these players to be scum - IF GB is town, at least. Though I think you're just giving Vivax ammunition for his scumread by hypothesizing something based on GB's town flip while scumreading him (not saying it's scummy, just that he'll probably bring it up soon enough lol) | ||
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gumshoe
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Xatalos
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Xatalos
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Xatalos
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gumshoe
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Honestly dont remember much of VivaxThink there is some good effort to keep things on track from Vivax, though it was pissed away to tell rayn to fuck off basically. The bolded was crossed out / ; its like he wanted to write a super vague post but thought better of it to avoid being obvious, not sure why he made it clear though -_- This is all we got from onegu Vivax will trust yamato's read on him for now. You KNOW someones giving a vague read when you have to go into someone elses filter to find out wtf they are talking about -_- this was yams opionion btw literally town Vivax to a tee mafia Viv is a little bitch | ||
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Xatalos
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gumshoe
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On October 31 2015 02:08 Xatalos wrote: Btw I still have a lingering feeling that ritoky could be scum, but all the voting etc. evidence seems to point otherwise... Meh. There are enough pretty clear / reasonable townies here that everything should work out fine. Dont worry about it, youll be dead soon enough : D don't see scum letting you through to lylo / : your way too green for your own good. | ||
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Xatalos
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Xatalos
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gumshoe
Canada3602 Posts
basically when in doubt of your own reads, the best thing you can do is not provide an opening for scum. You clearly agree based off your sig : P "The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." | ||
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gumshoe
Canada3602 Posts
Its perfectly reasonable for someone with unconfident in thier scum hunt game to be excited about proving they're towniness, as they have done the second best thing they can for town / : also bh yall should get in some last words too, you probs gonna die : P | ||
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Vivax
21686 Posts
The bolded was crossed out / ; its like he wanted to write a super vague post but thought better of it to avoid being obvious, not sure why he made it clear though -_- Yes when I want to make something not obvious I'll just cross it out and make it obvious. | ||
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gumshoe
Canada3602 Posts
On October 31 2015 02:18 Vivax wrote: Yes when I want to make something not obvious I'll just cross it out and make it obvious. I said as much : P its dumb, but yeah nobody is lining up to give hopeless any pro play medals. | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
Basically scum can only be catched when they make mistakes, and town can only be mislynched when they make mistakes. If everyone plays perfectly, it would just be the same as RNG lynching every day. I guess it's an achievement in itself to establish your innocence, even if your reads are unreliable. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 30 2015 22:11 Chromatically wrote: Here's something I just thought of: You're GB and you're town. You KNOW 100% that the wagons were mafia-town, and the vote went through 5-4. Here are the votes against you: Onegu (confirmed mafia) Chromatically (your townread who's been pushing you) Vivax (your #1 scumread all game) Hopeless (complete lurker you've been calling scum all game) So... a Vivax-Hopeless team should be pretty obvious from a town GB perspective, right? Instead, GB is assuming that Onegu was a complete bus from both mafia (who didn't hammer GB for some reason?), when he logically should see that all the scummiest people in the game (from his perspective) were piled on his wagon (who he should know is town). On October 30 2015 22:21 Xatalos wrote: Hmm.... Yeah, that's a bit odd. Would make sense if GB is scum with either hopeless or Vivax though. Yeah, I've been pretty much thinking GB/H1 is where we should be lynching tomorrow. I'm putting together a final VCA + Last Will post. On October 30 2015 23:04 Chromatically wrote: I'm getting worried that people won't actualy lynch GB, so I just thought I'd quote a lot of the points against him: + Show Spoiler + On October 25 2015 09:08 Chromatically wrote: GlowingBear That's right ladies and gentlemen, this is a legit case so strap yourselves in. This game's filter --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GB has not been pushing his scumreads like he does as town GB has three different lynch targets throughout the day (although he spends most of the time on Vivax). GB does not even make an attempt to get people to vote on BH or rayn other than the posts quoted here. Vivax he "pushes" on for a little bit earlier in the day, but it basically consisted of talking to marv a little bit about it and then discussing it with Vivax himself. He never really pushes it very hard. Compare this to his other games (quotes all taken from D1): As Town + Show Spoiler + Mini Mafia Down Under On July 27 2015 03:46 GlowingBear wrote: .:Case on KelsierSC:. 1) Constantly whining about having to waste posts with bad things without actually using his remaining 50+ posts for anything else + Show Spoiler + /*really long nested quote omitted*/ If he is so worried about wasting posts with useless stuff, WHY DOES HE WASTE POSTS TO KEEP SAYING HE IS ANNOYED? "Yes, one person is enough to annoy me", really? Why is he so annoyed, man? "Everybody is playing like shit". No, nobody is playing like shit in this game. This game is pretty concise and to the point. His annoyance is unjustified, it's ridiculous. Looks like mafia trying to fake being emotional. 2) Deflecting any early suspicions brought on him + guilty conscience THIS IS HIS SECOND POST IN THE GAME! This is an unnatural reaction to what scott posted. In town mindset, the reaction I would expect would be "then you're stupid because I'm town" and not "ok, you think I'm scum, am I the only one lol". It reveals mafia's guilty conscience. More than that, and more important, it is a deflection of early pressure. He sees someone calling him scum and softly tries to shift pressure to someone else. If you ask "am I the only one?" a common response would be "no, I didn't like X as well" and if they keep talking about X, the pressure is shifted. The same reaction can be seen here: + Show Spoiler + On July 25 2015 19:54 KelsierSC wrote: This isn't going to lead to anything productive so I think it's best to just end it here. It can be interpreted in both ways: town not wanting to shit the thread, or scum deflecting pressure. Since Kelsier already displayed the deflection behaviour, the second option is more likely. 3) Wanting to lynch me then backtracking when having no reasons to + Show Spoiler + */ even longer nested quote */ The progression is this, for people that doesn't want to read the posts: Kelsier says he doesn't like me and he would lynch me happily. I ask him why he doesn't like me. He says everything I post looks stupid. I asked him what is stupid in them and why does that makes me mafia. He said it doesn't make me mafia but he would lynch me anyway, and that he is annoyed because idiots (like me) are annoying him, but never says what are the problems with my posts. He then comes to the thread and says he wants to lynch "hopeless, clarity, obi and bf", not wanting to lynch me. It's simple: he said he didn't like me hoping to have me as an option for mislynch. When I confront it, he says I look stupid but he forgets it's something he doesn't believe is alignment indicative for me. Then he says he would lynch me anyway implying that I annoy him. Well, I wasn't raising suspicions on him since that time. Now I've being pressuring him for the rest of day1 and he doesn't want to lynch me anymore LOL. He is not annoyed with it. What I mean with this is: his actions does not follows his discourse, which is mostly a scum trait. Add to this the fact that he answers almost NOTHING of my posts directed to him. He just deflects them, adding to point (2) of this case. 4) HE IS VOTING TOFU INSTEAD OF SCOTT HE IS FUCKING VOTING TOFU INSTEAD OF SCOTT. SCOTT WAS THE FIRST GUY TO ANNOY HIM (AND KELSIER WOULD LYNCH PEOPLE DOING THAT)! Why he doesn't prefer a scott lynch? Hell, a lot of people thinks he is mafia! Instead of going against the guy that certainly looked as mafia for him, he is going against questionmark!Tofu. More than that, he wasn't advocating for a lynch on Scott, but opened a range of possible lynches he would go against (tofu, scott, obi, clarity). IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, PEOPLE! COME ON!!! + Show Spoiler [WIFOM] + Points on Kelsier were brought many times and no one quickly jumped on it, not even Scott, who was suspicions on Kelsier in the first place. The quick and unreasonable town reads Kelsier got points out that scum didn't want him as a possible mislynch. I am POSITIVE Kelsier is mafia. Vote him with me. ##Vote: KelsierSC On July 27 2015 06:28 GlowingBear wrote: Thought process does not compute. You think Tofu is Mafia Then you say Mafia is trying to take people out of the tofu wagon. The alternate wagon is clarity. I suppose you may think Mafia could be there. But you call Mafia people that were in other wagons and does not consider people that moved to the clarity wagon. You even raise suspicions on me but you don't call me Mafia (?), what's the point then? Then you dive clarity and suddenly he is bad? What about Mafia protecting tofu by forming another wagon????? Your thought process makes no sense and it completely fits Mafia perspective GUYS VOTE SCOTT PLEASE On July 27 2015 06:35 GlowingBear wrote: I mean, if you THINK Mafia is trying to take votes off of Mafia!Tofu you MUST consider they are forming the alternate wagon INSTEAD of ignoring people forming the alternate wagon and placing votes somewhere else. There is no other option EVEN if you believed in what you just said, it would make me completely Mafia, and not just something you would say "I don't know you're Mafia". Then other Mafia are boxerfred (?) and PROBABLY A VET? Why a vet, which vet, why not me. Then you simply say you could lynch clarity, man. You just said Mafia was taking votes off of tofu. You can't me town. PEOPLE PLEASE, SCOTT CAN'T BE TOWN Battle of the Drams Mafia: On October 01 2015 04:18 GlowingBear wrote: And truffle's recent posts are looking townie which is making me doubt my scum read on him. So there is that. LYNCH COOL TL NAME. Brb later On October 01 2015 06:54 GlowingBear wrote: STOP Keep your votes on COOL TL he is Mafia On October 01 2015 06:57 GlowingBear wrote: DO NOT VOTE SCOTT FUCKING KILL COOL TL ARGH DAMDRED ISN'T EVEN CLAIMING TRACKER, HE IS CLAIMING HE WILL HE DEAD As Mafia + Show Spoiler + Newbie Student XIV: On September 07 2015 02:26 GlowingBear wrote: I'm voting scott. I don't see a better lynch than him. On September 07 2015 03:55 GlowingBear wrote: I really think noobking shouldn't be the lynch today. Vote scott. On September 07 2015 05:36 GlowingBear wrote: Superbia, I'm home but I'm not feeling well, so I'm not going to format it well so I can take a quick nap quicker: This post may appear contributive at first glance but it's basically a summary of the thread at that point and reads accordingly to thread sentiment, bringing nothing new to the table. Why is Rayn town, why he is so quick to give yamato a townread like that? Why just saying I'm "drinking" again, discrediting me? It's a bunch of rehash with an attempt of looking contributive without actually contributing. He then starts to post reads accordingly to his progression on the pages of thread, cluttering the thread with partial and outdated information he keeps further reevaluating instead of just giving his opinion on one big post. My problem with this is that he is again trying to look contributive while not actually being contributive. Worse. He is cluttering the thread just to show "look, I'm doing stuff!" instead of interacting and actually search for Mafia. He is very bold when he gives reads. Calls Nocturne "town" with no back reqsoning when he was suspicious of mage's slot. He gives 3 names of people he thinks are Mafia and he could lynch (sayinf maybe I'm not Mafia an cake is) but posts this: For someone who has 3-4 scumreads, this is extremely scummy. Why is he okay with boxer's lynch if he has THREE better targets and he even ADMITS boxer is only a policy? I see no better lynch. Game of Thrones Mini Mafia: On April 18 2015 05:15 GlowingBear wrote: ... I've already said I'd prefer to lynch a scummy lurker at this point. It's not that I can't lynch SL, it's that I can deal with him later since I have information on him On April 18 2015 06:36 GlowingBear wrote: I'm voting loafery thrn art Vote with me Mafia Mini Mafia 2: On April 08 2015 03:48 GlowingBear wrote: Lol Damdy. Last time you said this you were Mafia. I also don't have to rely on meta this early. Again, I also know well your gameplay so I can figure you out later better. I need more information on you so I can draft a meta argument. That is why I think you should be Mafia, though: jumping too fast on the conclusion that I am Mafia. As town, GB not only pushes his target a lot, but is very passionate about doing so (doing capslock or spamming the thread to vote for his target). As mafia, he may have a target but he is much calmer about it and doesn't seem to be very invested in the lynch. GB's pushes this game have resembled his mafia pushes much much more than they resemble his town pushes by not having any passion for pushing his targets and not being invested in the lynch at all. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Total activity Here's just some numbers on activity for the games I looked at. Each number represents the page of filter GB was on after D1 finishes. Town games: Mini Mafia Down Under (this was a post restricted game): 5 pages Battle of the Drams: 9 pages Mafia in the Himalayas: 13 pages Mafia games: Newbie Student XIV: 7 pages Game of Thrones Mini: 3 pages Mafia Mini Mafia 2: 5 pages Average town: 9 pages Average mafia: 5 pages This game: 4 pages Of course, this isn't conclusive: activity is not entirely indicative of alignment, and the sample size of only 3 games per side means that this could be misrepresentative. However, I think the difference between town and mafia activity on D1 (even including a post restricted game!) is large enough to make it a point worth considering in conjunction with the other points. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other non-meta stuff One thing I thought was really weird from GB this game are the posts he pinged out when rereading the thread. I thought these were very strange posts to get reads from. Why does my post in there give him such a strong townread on me? I LITERALLY said that BH hasn't done anything alignment indicative and I get a day pass for it??? What? The posts from ritoky and Xatalos he quoted also seemed very strange, since I do not consider those posts particularly town at all. This doesn't make sense from town, but it makes sense from a mafia trying to manufacture their town reads on players they already know are town. In addition, I found this interaction with Vivax strange: Theoretically, GB has a scumread on Vivax at this point. So why is he basically giving tips to Vivax about how to read yamato? It makes more sense if he's unsure about his read and is starting to think Vivax is town, but his next list post just reaffirms that Vivax is his top scumread. I think this post is more likely to come from mafia, who already know that Vivax is town, than it is to come from a townie talking to someone they think is mafia. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is all in addition to the stuff that other people have said already about GB this game (usually related to his read on Vivax), which I won't repeat again here, and the general idea that GB really hasn't done much this game other than kind of just being around. ##Vote: GlowingBear Sources: Mini Mafia Down Under (town) Battle of the Drams Mafia (town) Mafia in the Himalayas (town) Newbie Student Mafia XIV (mafia) Game of Thrones Mini Mafia (mafia) Mafia Mini Mafia 2 (mafia) On October 27 2015 23:50 raynpelikoneet wrote: GlowingBear is definitely mafia. Just read this and the post i made about this earlier, here: and here... The fact is this has nothing to do with either: 1) re-evaluating a read, or 2) not having read the thread GlowingBear calls me town, then calls me mafia 20 hours later while calling me town there all the time between. Nowhere there does he make any attempt to re-evaluate anything, also i asked him multiple times if he has read the thread properly. He says "yes i have". This is not re-evaluating something (in contrary to for what example i did regarding my reads on ritoky / GB on D1), because he never shows any process of re-evaluation. Then, he just ends up saying the same bullshit Xatalos is pushing. Now idk, maybe he expected Slam to get lynched and didn't want to be on a mislynch wagon, or maybe he expected Xatalos to be able to lynch me which would be a much better for mafia than Slam lynched. idk. But still, the fact is he ended up voting for his townread over someone who he "can't get a read on" (=null). That, is a fact, and he just made up reasons for the read, as shown above. Hopeless is another scum since he just doesn't play anymore. He can also get lynched. Next thing is to read Onegu, and unless i come to the conclusion he is scum then the next thing is to read BH. Just because BH does not really take any stance on any lynch. He really does not, he goes onto his shennies which gives him outs left and right saying either "i was right", "i tried to lynch mafia", "i didn't want to lynch town", or if he hit mafia "i actually wanted to lynch that mafia". Shennies are bullshit and they don't even happen. Period. He is not trying to lynch anyone for reals. On October 27 2015 07:17 ritoky wrote: to summarize it quickly before i go: - no read on me even though he has played with me a bunch and can read me (claims can't){for ex. he has been mafia with me before and he knows how much i like the bus, i was expecting a no bus d1 = no mafia read out of him and i didn't get it} - self centric defensive play d1 - lots of talking about self and no real pro-active scum hunting - not GB town - isn't astounded he isn't being read town, hasn't freaked out, lacking charisma, low effort/caring level, and not plays attempted. - terrible defense - "i am town, push to vote" - 0 attempt to push his targets with any form of conviction. lots of caveats in the few reads given. if you find that town gb indicative then thumbs up to you, i don't. On October 29 2015 06:43 Chromatically wrote: Most of GB's posts on Vivax - "I'm used to see Vivax being paranoid town and him giving a bunch of town reads right out of the blue does not looks like his standard gameplay." #491 (first posts) - "I disagree with everyone, being confident =/= being straight forward and giving unexplained town passes, especially from a guy that I remember seeing flipping his reads constantly based on tinfoil theories. Here I see a guy with static reads that are never updated" #737 (list post) - "He has yet to explain the townreads, his activity dropped, his reads are static." #774 (post to rayn D1) - "He comes back, jokes about stuff, says some random stuff about killing me, but actually talks about nothing else in the game. His read on yamato has vanished, too." #1114 (end of D1) - "Vivax called Yamato scum for being inactive (in less than 24 hours in the game). When yamato turned against me, Vivax gave him a very weird townread (it felt like a joke, Vivax said it was an actual townread). Yamato is inactive now. Vivax never talks about him anymore. He only supports my lynch when people talk about it." #1808 (D2) - "Vivax has displayed some townie posts, I must agree, but his overall gameplay seems scummy to me. He doesn't feel engaged to win. He hasn't done anything memorable." #2818 (D3) I was looking through GB's filter again, and I noticed how his reasons for his read on Vivax really change a lot throughout the game. His actual read is completely static, but the reasons completely change and GB gives no sign of how his read is evolving. For example, he starts by saying that Vivax isn't paranoid enough, but hasn't mentioned that in a long time. Instead he talks about yamato and how Vivax forgot about his read on him, but then he also didn't mention that again today? The only reasons he's given today are the ones in the last bullet point, which are basically completely unrelated to the ones he's given before. Basically, if the other reasons from earlier still apply, then why hasn't GB mentioned them at all? And if they don't apply anymore, then why has his read not shown any signs of reevaluation? On October 30 2015 11:09 Chromatically wrote: Here's every read Onegu gave on GB: + Show Spoiler + On October 25 2015 09:42 Onegu wrote: Ill read the GB case in a bit. He has been really null for me. On October 26 2015 23:44 Onegu wrote: No I never said he was lying. He never said he was working. I point it out because sometimes I dont know if he is working or not. I do not know his work schedule. My point was out of the 2 wagons I would lynch yamato over GB because of activity. And normally that doesnt work for yamato you cannot make a read off of him because of activity because he is working. But this game I know he wasnt working. This doesnt mean yamato is my preferred lynch, he looked really townie day 1. On October 26 2015 23:57 Onegu wrote: No I am not calling him mafia rayn. I am null on him. I am null on GB. They are the 2 current wagons. I gave my thoughts on the wagons. I said if I had to choose from the wagons I would vote Yamato. On October 27 2015 00:21 Onegu wrote: Becuase it effects my read on him. That is why I would lynch him over GB. But I am waiting for you to tell me why GB is scum. On October 30 2015 01:32 Onegu wrote: The main reason is because I am scum reading you two more. GB needs looked at also, but I feel multiple people scum read GB maybe he shoots rayn, but only rayn and myself were scum reading you. Rayn had the clout that I dont to actually lynch you. And here's most of what he says about Hopeless (I omitted a bunch of "lynch hopeless" posts): + Show Spoiler + On October 24 2015 02:55 Onegu wrote: ... Hopeless said he was going to lynch me for being useless I told him good luck, he didnt bite at the bait. Not looking good. IE rels in rayns game. ... On October 25 2015 05:48 Onegu wrote: ... Could also lynch hopeless here. Like I baited him and he did nothing about it and just went after easy lynches even after threatening me. His reads seem to just go along with thread sentiment. ... On October 26 2015 14:27 Onegu wrote: Ok I take back my read on Gumshoe. He looks really townie now. I think I like a hopeless lynch at this point. He is just lurking which is with the way the thread was and has been imploding I cant shake the feeling there is at least 1 scum in the lurkers if not 2 or even 3. Plus I did a test for him and he failed it hard. He said he would vote me if I did nothing and I basically told him I look forward to it and he did nothing about it. There are a few other things like his votes and reasons. I will go more into it tomorrow. Ritoky could also easily be mafia as a lurker, plus his thing following his towniest read and that read was BH. Ill get into more details tomorrow. But for now. ##Vote: Hopeless On October 30 2015 01:48 Onegu wrote: That vote from hopeless on Xata is so fucking random, If he is going to be around why use a placeholder and why Xata. Then he drops a vote on GB... Why does this give me the heebie jeebies that this is two town wagons... Can we please vote hopeless? ##Vote: Hopeless So my initial reaction to this is that Onegu never giving a read at all on GB looks really really bad. I don't think this says much about Hopeless at all, it could be Onegu pushing an easy target or it could be him putting pressure on his scumbuddy that's not playing (and wasn't really up for lynch any of those days). On October 30 2015 22:11 Chromatically wrote: Here's something I just thought of: You're GB and you're town. You KNOW 100% that the wagons were mafia-town, and the vote went through 5-4. Here are the votes against you: Onegu (confirmed mafia) Chromatically (your townread who's been pushing you) Vivax (your #1 scumread all game) Hopeless (complete lurker you've been calling scum all game) So... a Vivax-Hopeless team should be pretty obvious from a town GB perspective, right? Instead, GB is assuming that Onegu was a complete bus from both mafia (who didn't hammer GB for some reason?), when he logically should see that all the scummiest people in the game (from his perspective) were piled on his wagon (who he should know is town). It is interesting that historically GB has been on the block but always gotten out of a lynch (especially given the possibility of a double lynch D2; this is on the list of reasons I think he should be lynched). I really think if he was town he'd have gotten hammered. As it stands I think GB/H1 should be our lynches, as a natural extension of 1G/GB/H1 as our lynches yesterday. I am pretty sure we just lynch these guys and win the game. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 31 2015 01:33 Xatalos wrote: If gumshoe is scum in this game, I'll happily give the win to him. I think he's been the most helpful player for town in the game overall. If such a player is scum, then town deserves to lose... Well, I think gum is town so I'm glad for anyone to not vote him, but this kind of logic is shit. You lynch in a way that gives us the best chance to win, not because of some moral judgment about who "deserves" to win. I didn't push Onegu because his shit play meant he "deserves" to lose if he's town or if he's scum, I pushed him because he was likely to flip scum. By the same notion, I don't care whether gumshoe deserves to win or lose: we shouldn't lynch him anyways. Why? Because he is town. I think that he was instrumental in the 1G lynch yesterday (though if both wagons were scum as I suspect it doesn't matter) and all game has been laying down solid analysis. He has been unafraid to interact with players, make posts and cases, and comment on other people's posts and cases. Overall he plays like a guy with nothing to hide and I really can't see why people think he's scum. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 31 2015 01:36 Chromatically wrote: Guys, think about this: IF GB is town: The mafia are three out of {me, Vivax, Hopeless}. No question. If you believe otherwise (that at least one mafia was bussing), then you have to find a person on the Onegu wagon that couldn't have switched to secure the GB lynch. gumshoe wrote a justification for voting GB, he could have kept his vote there. BH was posting a lot about being worried about the lynch, he could have easily switched at the last second and people would be like "Oh BH, you silly goose! You and your shenannies!" ritoky switched for basically no reason and hammered scum, he 100% could have just kept his vote on GB with perfect justification. Xatalos was saying that he might be okay with lynching GB earlier in the day and he's been scumreading GB too, he could have switched. The mafia team is EITHER GB + someone else OR {me/Vivax/Hopeless}. To believe otherwise, you have to think that scum willingly avoided, for basically no reason, lynching a town and saving Onegu, which would have put us into 4-3 LYLO. BTW coupled with my D2 VCA I think we can pretty safely say that a GB/H1 team fits the vidence we have here. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
oh lordy | ||
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