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On March 21 2008 07:36 ahrara_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2008 07:26 French_Toast wrote:
Okay, first of all thanks for insulting me directly, now I have an excuse to put you down. Secondly, are you the type of n00b that when he gets a great game and plays it, he types in cheat codes automatically? Funny how you get all sensitive when someone insults you, but it's ok for you to be a bitch to everyone else. I don't really care about what French_Toast has to say. I just hope the townies realize that just a few people being persuaded to not send in their PMs by this possible mafia ploy are going to seriously weaken Ace's plan. It's possible the mafia realize this, and have sent a saboteur in to get enough people upset that the plan doesn't work. Send in your PMs, for everyone's sake.
I don't really see how my posts are bitchy, but if you want me to be more polite, then sure.
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On March 21 2008 07:33 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2008 06:18 Kau wrote:On March 21 2008 05:10 qrs wrote:
It's not that dumb. Assuming that all blues (+ fake-blues) send in their roles as they are supposed to, it makes absolutely no difference whether the rest of us officially declare townie or not. No one's going to declare Mafia, and anyone who was going to declare roleplayer should have done that.
But on second thought, I concede that if we are afraid that some blues will stay low for whatever reason (although they shouldn't) and we are afraid of lynching them by mistake then the "I am townie" statement does do something: it tells the mayor "I am not an inactive blue". It does make a difference if townies have to pm because it forces the mafia to pm too, because ideally, every townie and every blue would have pm'ed Ace, so the only ones who have not pm'ed would be mafia. If we had it so that no townie had to pm, then mafia can just do nothing. And this way, Mafia have to PM that they are townies. And that's exactly the same as doing nothing in the original scenario. They don't have to reveal anything about themselves, they don't have to contradict themselves, all they have to do is say something that is implicit from the very fact that they are playing the game. This is not an "exploit". The one slight reason I can see for having green townies PM is to eliminate the possibility that they are inactive blues. If everyone is playing well, this shouldn't be necessary (because all blues should respond) but, OK, it's possible that not all blues are paying attention, so it doesn't hurt to PM Ace--more information is not bad. In any case, I've already said in the thread that I'm a vanilla townie. (If I'm actually mafia, the Mafia knows it and if I'm actually a roleplayer, Ace knows it.) PS-French Toast has just jumped to the top of my suspicion list.
Well if you are accusing me of being mafia then I'm afraid I have no defense off the top of my head. The only thing I could really say is that you'll be wasting a lynch. 
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Edit: lol, massive amount of posts came in since I posted this. So " @ the above" changed to @ French_Toast's previous post
@ French_Toast: 4 pool is easily countered even when not scouted properly at today's standards.
On March 21 2008 05:36 Lysithea wrote:
Why are people waiting for a dt to confirm? Wasn't the whole point that if no dt/bg speak up against Ace's townmanship he's considered legit?
Only thing we're waiting for is for the dts to have ample time to be sure they've done their thing. How long we wait is up to the masses I guess.
Because some people clearly didn't read that post where it was explained, or misunderstood it.
So maybe there's need for more reiteration.
Next random topic popping up: I think as Ace put it, we waited enough for a detective to speak up and prove his innocence. It might sound as a gamble if we believe they have done so, and didn't speak up according to plan so Ace is innocent - since there's always a chance they missed posts for 2 days straight, didn't agree with the plain due to plain selfishness or didn't know that they can use their role anytime. But as Ace said that, we're as good as dead in this case.
Another note worth mentioning about this topic, since the 2 days (I assume Chuiu meant game-days, not "real" days, he'll correct me if I'm wrong I guess) that he'll redistribute the blue roles off of inactive people. But that's not done yet! So if we PM our roles now to Ace, as a townie, out of our best interest - it might still cause problems! What if I was a mere townie, just PMed Ace, then a few hours later I would have to be like "oh, hehe X was inactive, I got his Jack role, now count me in as Jack." He could believe I'm not lying then it would be fine, or it could be just a mafia ploy for even more confusion.
Of course Ace's plan has holes, but why would he post every possible hole? It's enough to post holes that you know the solution for, so you can lure the mafia into your trap Let their heads ache and may all of them act out of desperation by the sound of the new plan - even if it's not an insta-win of course. But we really do need a strategy (sad for those that don't get it and act selfish, like some of the above - just lynch them along with shit-strirrers I say, problem solved! This is no democracy!)
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Jeez, it sounds like you're against the town winning. If it's by the rules, why complain about what you feel is inevitable victory? Sure sounds like your against the interest of the town. It sounds like you're a mafioso who's having trouble deciding on what to do.
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On March 21 2008 07:46 Falcynn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2008 07:43 French_Toast wrote:On March 21 2008 07:31 Falcynn wrote:On March 21 2008 07:26 French_Toast wrote:On March 21 2008 07:15 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:On March 21 2008 06:18 French_Toast wrote:
Wow, Ace's plan is so stupid and cheap. I liked the bodyguard plan but this is a sign of desperation. Yeah, guys let's make this game even more cheap! Lets have everyone pm their roles so we know who's lying! Seriously, if you want to keep this game fun, avoid cheap exploits like that. You must suck at starcraft and every other competitive game out there. The best players always find cheap exploits to gain a slight advantage over their opponents. Mafia is no exception, especially since this is a competitive forum for one of the most competitive games ever. If you wanted to lose, you shouldn't have joined in this game. Unless, that is, you are mafia. Not neccessarily accusing you, you might just be really, really stupid. Same goes for HeroeS)Pink (should we be paying attention to the mr. pink clue or is that too obvious? Damn you for picking a clue like that chuiu). Okay, first of all thanks for insulting me directly, now I have an excuse to put you down. Secondly, are you the type of n00b that when he gets a great game and plays it, he types in cheat codes automatically? Do you really like to replace skill with exploits? If so then games in general are not for you, especially StarCraft. Why do you think developers balance games out? StarCraft went through so many patches for that single purpose, that is why it's so competitive. And no, I don't want to lose, but I don't want to play unfair either! And if you were talking about cheesing for StarCraft, those aren't really exploits, they are valid strategies that can be countered. That's a horrible example. We're playing this game perfectly within the boundaries of the rules, for your analogy to make any sense we would've had to do something drastic like hacking into everyone's accounts and checking their PM's. If you want to talk about SC examples. We're 4pooling you mafia guys, and you're complaining about how we're ruining the game because of a "cheap" strategy that you can't get around (it's not that hard). Edit: and obviously we're going to keep looking out for clues, but since there are like 130 guys, there are obviously going to be times where clues point to more than one guy. So we need other tactics to narrow down the choices. Of course you are playing by the rules, you just chose to go the wrong way to go about it. You are not hacking, or cheating, a better way to describe it would be glitching. Look, let's say everyone responds truthfully except for the Mafia. Unless the Mafia are stupid they will all claim to be townies. Now, what you have is, all special roles are safe and medics can be assigned via PM. Also you have 31 innocents and you know everyone's special role. So, then you could also coordinate attacks with vigilantes, investigations with detectives, and other stuff. HOW CHEAP IS THAT? You are pretty much assembling an organized army and reducing possible suspects by 31! This game is set for you! Unless the mafia are super awesome you are pretty much 4 pooling them. I'm sure you guys will come up with something to counter this I'd rather not share how the mafia can counter this since I don't want to give them ideas, but it is possible. Town will gain a slight advantage, but mafia can still win easily.
I do not see how this is only a slight advantage. What I wrote would be an ideal case scenario because we will have inactive people not send their PM and the mafia can use this as an excuse but, if someone suddenly becomes active and does not reply then I presume they become suspicious. And if you do not wish to post your ideas, that is fine, I'll have other people to debate with.
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Sorry, meant to say "At worst, town will gain a slight advantage..."
However despite that, this plan isn't 100% fool proof like you seem to be trying to make it out to be.
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On March 21 2008 07:54 Naib wrote:Edit: lol, massive amount of posts came in since I posted this. So " @ the above" changed to @ French_Toast's previous post @ French_Toast: 4 pool is easily countered even when not scouted properly at today's standards. Show nested quote +On March 21 2008 05:36 Lysithea wrote:
Why are people waiting for a dt to confirm? Wasn't the whole point that if no dt/bg speak up against Ace's townmanship he's considered legit?
Only thing we're waiting for is for the dts to have ample time to be sure they've done their thing. How long we wait is up to the masses I guess. Because some people clearly didn't read that post where it was explained, or misunderstood it. So maybe there's need for more reiteration. Next random topic popping up: I think as Ace put it, we waited enough for a detective to speak up and prove his innocence. It might sound as a gamble if we believe they have done so, and didn't speak up according to plan so Ace is innocent - since there's always a chance they missed posts for 2 days straight, didn't agree with the plain due to plain selfishness or didn't know that they can use their role anytime. But as Ace said that, we're as good as dead in this case. Another note worth mentioning about this topic, since the 2 days (I assume Chuiu meant game-days, not "real" days, he'll correct me if I'm wrong I guess) that he'll redistribute the blue roles off of inactive people. But that's not done yet! So if we PM our roles now to Ace, as a townie, out of our best interest - it might still cause problems! What if I was a mere townie, just PMed Ace, then a few hours later I would have to be like "oh, hehe X was inactive, I got his Jack role, now count me in as Jack." He could believe I'm not lying then it would be fine, or it could be just a mafia ploy for even more confusion. Of course Ace's plan has holes, but why would he post every possible hole? It's enough to post holes that you know the solution for, so you can lure the mafia into your trap Let their heads ache and may all of them act out of desperation by the sound of the new plan - even if it's not an insta-win of course. But we really do need a strategy (sad for those that don't get it and act selfish, like some of the above - just lynch them along with shit-strirrers I say, problem solved! This is no democracy! )
I know this is doing wonders for my post count
Mafia related: I am not trying to act selfish, if I seem that way, I'm just trying to point out that this strategy is cheap and we should stick to others like: interpreting the clues, and bodyguard plan.
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On March 21 2008 08:01 Falcynn wrote:
Sorry, meant to say "At worst, town will gain a slight advantage..."
However despite that, this plan isn't 100% fool proof like you seem to be trying to make it out to be.
Not 100%? Debate with me. (Unless you don't want to.)
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The "selfish" part wasn't actually directed at you in person, just in general.
Oh and Shallow: ur mum ;(
See: the above one-liner is the quality of most of your posts made here. And it's not only me noticing / saying (Hell, it's not even only about Mafia but TL in general, just look around). Maybe everyone on the road is going on the wrong side...but maybe it's you?
/derailment off
Can't wait to see who dies when they day arises...That'll be how much hours approximately from here on?
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If I can come up with counters to what the mafia might be able to do, then I'll post what I'm thinking of right now. However if the mafia does what I'm thinking of, I'm not sure if there's a decent way to catch them. So until I can think of a way to close this hole, I'd rather not discuss it (since I'm hoping that the mafia won't think of it).
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@french toast, heros pink
firstly - the thing about excel spreadsheets. whichever one of you mentioned it, the conversation was between me and ace. however since i flipped vanilla townie, i stopped updating my excel sheet cause i honestly don't give a damn (it's stuck at around page 35ish, the conversation took page on around 40ish).
secondly, this everyone-pm-ace-their-role plan is just that, a plan. plans can go wrong in so many ways. how is this cheap? certainly if you argue that this is cheap, what about my excel spreadsheet? let's assume i wasn't lazy, and actually updated it. as soon as someone died, BAM i could go and see who supported that person, who accused that person, who that person accused, who that person supported, who he voted for, whether he changed votes, etc.
With 9+ kills per night, don't you think that's a retardedly high amount of information? add in the themes and clues i was thinking of (another tab in my excel sheet), and you get a nice suspect list, that you can fine-tune each day, as each death gives a shitload of information to the person. i almost talked myself into getting back to updating this list -_-;
both plans are just ways of getting information, which is necessary for town to win. both are within the rules, and so the game is balanced around them. i find it hard to believe that chuiu didn't take this into account. if he didn't want this to happen, he can ban PMs, plain and simple (like in tracil's game)
seriously now don't be silly
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On March 21 2008 07:54 LucasWoJ wrote:
Jeez, it sounds like you're against the town winning. If it's by the rules, why complain about what you feel is inevitable victory? Sure sounds like your against the interest of the town. It sounds like you're a mafioso who's having trouble deciding on what to do.
I think I already addressed this, whatever I'll say it again. In the previous posts I made, one of my arguments was that it would make the game less fun. Mafia is supposed to be about digging up clues and dirt on people, convincing your theory is right to other people, and having fun in general. These kind of games can become epic and fun to read, but if you use a cheap win you will lose all of that.
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On March 21 2008 08:15 French_Toast wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2008 07:54 LucasWoJ wrote:
Jeez, it sounds like you're against the town winning. If it's by the rules, why complain about what you feel is inevitable victory? Sure sounds like your against the interest of the town. It sounds like you're a mafioso who's having trouble deciding on what to do. I think I already addressed this, whatever I'll say it again. In the previous posts I made, one of my arguments was that it would make the game less fun. Mafia is supposed to be about digging up clues and dirt on people, convincing your theory is right to other people, and having fun in general. These kind of games can become epic and fun to read, but if you use a cheap win you will lose all of that. TBH mafia is originally supposed to be played without any clues and you usually win using strategies like what we're using (ok...not really like them, but close enough). Clues are only used for large internet games where it's hard to personally get to know people and understand their character.
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Some ppl's characters stand out more than others 
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On March 21 2008 08:09 French_Toast wrote:
Not 100%? Debate with me. (Unless you don't want to.)
The 'PM your role' plan isn't foolproof because there are many people with the same role and additionally, a few of each role will probably be inactive.
For example, there are 7 paramedics. Odds are that 1-2 of them won't get the message that they're supposed to PM their role to Ace, which means the mafia is fairly safe having a member or two lie to Ace about being a medic. Even if Ace receives 7 or fewer medic PMs, he can't trust those people to not be mafia. If he receives 8+ PMs, at least one person is mafia, but 1/8 is a lower ratio than randomly guessing, and there aren't enough detectives to go around to ferret out that one liar. Either way, those people can't be trusted.
The plan is more useful for limited roles such as the Mad Hatter. With only one of those left, the mafia would be taking a huge gamble to pretend to be that one. Vigilantes and Detectives are medium risk - pretending to be one could be a huge payoff if the mafia doesn't get caught and Ace trusts them, but also poses a high risk of being busted.
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On March 21 2008 08:11 Naib wrote:
The "selfish" part wasn't actually directed at you in person, just in general.
Oh and Shallow: ur mum ;(
See: the above one-liner is the quality of most of your posts made here. And it's not only me noticing / saying (Hell, it's not even only about Mafia but TL in general, just look around). Maybe everyone on the road is going on the wrong side...but maybe it's you?
/derailment off
Can't wait to see who dies when they day arises...That'll be how much hours approximately from here on?
Ha ha, good joke I guess, I didn't fully understand how my posts don't have quality. (If your speaking about my previous one liner then I didn't really have much to respond to.)
If I can come up with counters to what the mafia might be able to do, then I'll post what I'm thinking of right now. However if the mafia does what I'm thinking of, I'm not sure if there's a decent way to catch them. So until I can think of a way to close this hole, I'd rather not discuss it (since I'm hoping that the mafia won't think of it).
I'll be looking forward to it.
@french toast, heros pink
(long so I shortened it)
For the spreadsheet thing, to bad you didn't go through with it, I guess it's a thing for people with a lot of time. As for the information gathering point, I actually see a big difference. You could, of course keep track of all these people, get info, and guess who's who, that's what I'm saying you should do. Doing your own investigative work and then comparing answers with someone else is what I think the most exciting part of this game is. However, telling everyone to PM their roles to you, if you can combine that with your list effectively, you own all. Not only will you have all of the special roles in due time, you will also have an abridged list of suspects, and all the detectives at your disposal. Using detectives to check your suspects and Vigilantes to kill them is like the ultimate counter-mafia fighting force!
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On March 21 2008 08:19 Falcynn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2008 08:15 French_Toast wrote:On March 21 2008 07:54 LucasWoJ wrote:
Jeez, it sounds like you're against the town winning. If it's by the rules, why complain about what you feel is inevitable victory? Sure sounds like your against the interest of the town. It sounds like you're a mafioso who's having trouble deciding on what to do. I think I already addressed this, whatever I'll say it again. In the previous posts I made, one of my arguments was that it would make the game less fun. Mafia is supposed to be about digging up clues and dirt on people, convincing your theory is right to other people, and having fun in general. These kind of games can become epic and fun to read, but if you use a cheap win you will lose all of that. TBH mafia is originally supposed to be played without any clues and you usually win using strategies like what we're using (ok...not really like them, but close enough). Clues are only used for large internet games where it's hard to personally get to know people and understand their character.
Now it hits me! That's why this game was so familiar yet so new. I've played it offline couple o' dozen times, once at a long chess-competition (at night after the day's matches, instead of resting). It's hella fun.
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French_Toast you misunderstood me again, I meant "general" as in: people who don't read / don't get it / don't PM.
I didn't mean general as "French_Toast's posts in general". You take everything personal
edit: the followup part of my post that you quoted can be misunderstood, too, and I think you took it on yourself: it's directed at Shallow[bay] to try to get him get his act together.
Well that's too much posting from me again: I'm off to sleep.
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Everyday i wake up to this now...
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On March 21 2008 08:19 Falcynn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2008 08:15 French_Toast wrote:On March 21 2008 07:54 LucasWoJ wrote:
Jeez, it sounds like you're against the town winning. If it's by the rules, why complain about what you feel is inevitable victory? Sure sounds like your against the interest of the town. It sounds like you're a mafioso who's having trouble deciding on what to do. I think I already addressed this, whatever I'll say it again. In the previous posts I made, one of my arguments was that it would make the game less fun. Mafia is supposed to be about digging up clues and dirt on people, convincing your theory is right to other people, and having fun in general. These kind of games can become epic and fun to read, but if you use a cheap win you will lose all of that. TBH mafia is originally supposed to be played without any clues and you usually win using strategies like what we're using (ok...not really like them, but close enough). Clues are only used for large internet games where it's hard to personally get to know people and understand their character.
True, but that is why I am attracted to this game so. You have lots of time to keep track of everything and to determine clues. However the down side to this is that there are so many people that it is a guessing game most of the time, if people actually take the challenge to do all of this investigating then they will have fun and dominate.
ShadowDrgn
Yes, at first. But this plan is not instantly put into place, after around 2 days people have to login to vote or else they are breaking the rule that you have to vote and will be kicked, then the role will be assigned to another and they will confirm. After a while you will the info.
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EPT
