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On June 21 2014 09:20 YouKnowZhou wrote:Thanks for your generosity, VE. If you have some time, could you please respond to this post tonight? Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 08:59 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 21 2014 08:58 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 21 2014 08:57 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 21 2014 08:56 VisceraEyes wrote:
It's strong enough to lynch him over other people Artanis, that's about as certain as I can be. Same with mderg, but as I said before the people I'm townreading are more inclined to lynch BH. The difference between this lynch and the last was A) I wasn't around in the waning hours of the day last cycle and B) I'm not SUPER TOWN on the opposing wagon this cycle, in fact the opposite. So you have a townread on SloOsh and Snickers, the other two voters on my wagon? Release was on you earlier, that's who I was referring to. And now he's not. Now he's voting WITH me. And yeah, Sloosh you like, but you think snickers is scum On June 21 2014 08:48 VisceraEyes wrote:
Specifically I like slOosh and Release on your wagon and I disliked Snickers and you on the mderg wagon. I'm not really reading Koshi as supertown yet which concerns me, but I dislike him less than I dislike you and Snickers. So what's the deal VE? Why me over mderg? Or are your explanations as fallacious as your timing? If you're willing to extend to me the courtesy of assuming I'm town for a moment, let me explain what this lynch looked like to me. It looked like I had caught scum and finally forced town to accept it. You were hedghing your bets, calling both me and mderg scum. If you are in fact scum, this isn't a bad move. Now, things are close and it looks like you could get me lynched instead of your scumbuddy, so you vote me. You need a good reason, so you say you like the people on my wagon better. When I say "okay, fine, I'm getting lynched, let's interact a bit beforehand so I can develop reads and leave something for town", everyone interacts with me, except you, who snaps at me and goes afk. Now, finally I manage to convince people to lynch mderg. After it becomes clear my life is no longer in danger, you return to the thread and respond to my questions. You can no longer afford to just ignore me until the lynch deadline. Then, when I ask you about your vote on me, you talk about the people on my wagon. 1 of the 2 people you had a townread on is now voting with me instead of against me, and of the 2 people left, one of them is Snickers, on whom you have a scumread. And yet your vote stays on me. What this looks like to me is a poorly rationalized vote on the counterwagon to a scumbuddy. I think you were trying to defend mderg, kill me, and ignore my attempts to form reads until the lynch ended and I was dead. Then, when I turned things around, you came back to do damage control. It looks to me like you're scum with mderg. You had him pegged as scum and voted me instead of him, which would have been fine since you had me for scum, but your reasoning didn't add up, and your timing was very, very oppotunistic. So here's my question for you, VE. Do you see how I, as town, perceive this? What is your response to the issues I've raised in this post, issues to which you didn't respond in the previous post I raised them in?
Oh and don't forget that unlike you. VE loves me. That's why I'm confirmed town and mafia love me.
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Assuming you're town then yes, I can absolutely see why my vote being on you instead of the flipped scum would be suspicious. Why did that take you literally four paragraphs to ask?
Understand that slOosh looked really good and you looked really bad. And that we agreed that you looked really bad made me think we actually were onto something. Obviously I thought I was onto something with mderg as well (see: only case I've made all game) but because slOosh, who was at the time my "rock" so to speak, had misgivings about lynching mderg. And because I failed to get mderg lynched yesterday and people were scummy on me today, I didn't feel like I had the necessary clout to oppose he and Release in lynching you, so I figured it was just as well to lynch you.
*moment of assumption over*
That Snickers, who I'm scum on, was voting for you plays no part. Obviously, because I was fine with an mderg lynch IN SPITE of you being on him, right? Scum bus, it happens all the time. It's why I still want to lynch you tomorrow: because I had a good case on mderg BEFORE you came in and voted for him. I can see a scum BH bussing there, so that's where my head is at.
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So now that a mafia is shown, what route should we take. I remember someone saying that my reads on mderg's specific phrases were probably wrong since most of the time they do it, they are wrong.
Also i would like hear peoples thoughts on my alignment now that mderg has been shown scum.
I think i should be looking town as hell right now. Here are some of the big reasons.
Day one. I made what i think is the best case on mderg for day one. I consolidated my post on him because that is what town is suppose to do for mafia to not sway it easily. I also commented on how bad a 27nb lynch was because of how town she was. I am not 100% sure of this but i think goodkarma said he was just voting 27nb since release would probably not come back to change his vote. Mderg probably could of been lynched day one if goodkarma(confirmed town) had release actually consolidate his posts.
Day two. I made the best case on Mderg before i had to go. Release tried to say my case on him was just going to be a fallback to prove me town. Note that YKZ's case on mderg before i had to go was the same case i made on mderg day one.
I was voting for mderg until i saw the votes on YKZ. I had no clue what way the votes were going to go so i only had one option to consolidate on unlike day one. I did not think mderg was going to be voted today.
I have sometime so I am going to respond to release's actual case on me. I do not know if there is a point to it if people think I am super town. Anyway if anyone is watching the thread I will be around for some time.
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On June 21 2014 06:31 Release wrote:Foreword: If you paid attention to my case any other time, read after "Why stop there:" Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 02:48 Snickers wrote:On June 20 2014 23:43 Koshi wrote:On June 20 2014 22:54 Lazermonkey wrote:
I'm busy today as well but will hopefully at least be able to post during the lynch. I don't really get the BH wagon yet though. Well, I do get it but I don't get how people would rather vote for BH than they would vote for VE or Koshi.
Untill his reason vote he didn't have a single scum read what so ever. And it IS very convinient that he votes that number 1 lynchbait... I am voting for the only person who has a case made against him. Two even. Do you disagree with the cases? I don't so I vote Mderg. What do you mean with you don't understand why people are voting BH? BH pushed bunnies like a mofo and then disappeared, only to come back do nothing and taunt everybody, so he got votes. I am only doing the do nothing part, so I got less votes than BH. Now that BH did something everybody should comment on that. Is the case legit or is it not? For me the case is very legit and well made so I am ok with BH. Somewhere I should look at the meta of BH in djinn game and in Ver game because he tunneled town D1 in both those games. I will do that later. Voting me is pretty boring btw. I pinkysweared I was town when I entered the game. That should be enough. On top of that I am voting for the best cases in the thread, I am not pushing my own agenda in the thread, and I do not hide any of my reasoning from the thread. I already told you people to look at the people who didn't vote Mderg D1. Scum never votes together. It simply doesn't happen ever. If I had to guess I would say Snickers is the scummer between the 4 but he is on Mderg ass since D1 so meh. Snickers hasn't been answering any of my questions and is just ignoring everything and pushing Release/Mderg.
But I am not pushing anything this game. People that lie frequently. 1.Koshi 2.Release People that play this game annoyingly (regardless of alignment most likely) 1.YKZ 2.Chezinu Mderg do you have a question. My filter will answer it for you. Also funny how i commented on Release's whole "case" on me and he still "thinks" i did not. Do not think it is a case since he summarizes stuff and does not quote. Also lets see who is the first to find out that YKZ's case on mderg is repeating what me and another person said. Then he completely takes the post i quoted and says the exact same thing. He even says he is sure somebody said this. You ask and I guess you will receive. (It is a case. A summary of mafia play means mafia play was there). At the beginning of the game, he casts suspsicion on 27nb following YKZ, supports the Kenpachi rule and encourages further discussion of it.+ Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote:
So far I am leaning towards 27nb as scum. Although i said the kenpachi rule is useless, now that i understand it better, it does have some merit. It seems like for a scum to claim VT first day would be a tactic that would be stupidly selfish, since it would most likely hurt the whole scum team. It seems like a tactic only a bad scum team would use. (But how would a scum team know it had a disadvantage. Maybe with poor roles? Maybe by meta? I do not think a scum team would plan to use the kenpachi rule to their favor.) 27nb has not really commented on the kenpachi rule and is just dismissing it.
Also i am not voting for her yet.
Only eight out of the twelve players have posted so far, so it seems too early.
My reads for other players so far.
Artanis, sloosh and Ve have not said much so no read.
goodkarma seems to be playing standard. Nothing really sticking out at me for now. Maybe I will reread his posts.
Chezinu has a high ratio of text to information. Seems weird but it only the first day. I do not think this information is sufficient enough to even mention the s word.
YKZ seems to be a very knowledgeable player.
It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one.
Please comment on my thoughts This is already well into the day and YKZ has detailed his application of the kenpachi rule. Despite initially disliking the use of the Kenpachi rule + Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 10:58 Snickers wrote:Hello everyone. I am not sure how to quote someone so if the above quote was wrong please tell me how. (I checked preview and it looked right) What does BH stand for? For awhile i thought VT stood for vigilante not vanilla town. Also this kenpachi rule is useless. he now claims that it has merit. Bandwagon play. 27nb dismisses the reasoning for the Kenpachi (which again is the mention of VT; I'm pretty certain incorrect). Misrep. of information by Snickers. + Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 12:32 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 12:14 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 12:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 12:03 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:59 slOosh wrote:
What is this "limited information" that you guys are getting at? On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? What's truly amazing here is what an awesome example this is for Kenpachi Rule Extended. Even after I call it you're still doing it. Assuming you do in fact flip scum I'll have to write a post game analysis just on the first few pages of this game. Maybe I could tie it in with a general Kenpachi and Kenpachi Rule Extended / Zephirdd Rule tutorial. I'm getting more excited by the minute! BH I thought you were some amazing mafia player? Obviously not because YOU ARE WRONG ON ME! And I'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game. See the statement is suspicious to me "i'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game." why the end of the game. It could easily be prove "wrong" the first night. "wrong" as in if your lynched and shown as town. Or if YKZ is lynched and showed scum. I am just trying to show where I think 27nb is thinking in a strange way. Maybe she just thinks that way normally. I do not think the kenpachi rule can be proven wrong. I think it can be proven to not be 100% right though. I think saying it is wrong is stating it has no merit at all. I already explained why i thought a scum could potentially claim VT day one to attempt for an advantage. Also sloosh thanks for posting. I think this kenpachi rule should still be discussed a little more, but I see where you think we should stop the seeming rigmarole. Focuses to narrowly on the phrasing of game vs day. The idea of bunny's wish to survive to the end of the game is very clear. And he adds a completely wrong scietific interpretation of the Kenpachi rule, and supports the Kenpachi rule discussion which has caused nothing but havoc in the thread. Then he makes some slightly unclear buddy up to YKZ posts.The last quoted post does exactly that. Bad reasoning to support YKZ's incorrect claims. Let's also go back to this + Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote:
It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one.
in which he supports YKZ's towniness by saying that he would prefer to have a knowledgable player. Later claims that this was an unlikely outcome, but if that were the case, there would be no point in making a post like this. Therefore, I conclude that Snickers is lying and that the intention of this post is to half-defend but moreso align himself with the "towny" YKZ (from his perspective). Then he supports me, the he flipflops on me following a not so good case on me by artansis.+ Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 13:49 Snickers wrote:
Good post release, I wanted to comment on some of your points.
1.I think it should be stated that 27nb mentioned VT in a post before her vote post.
2.Also this "limited information" we all have different levels of information. This is a semi open game so we know what roles are possible but not the quantity. I am assuming that we all could be goons and VT? but even if we were not, information is simply not on the level of scum or town. A PR has more information that a VT because he knows his respective role exists in the game. So i think generally information goes scum>PR>Vt.
Also this "limited information" does not seem like a slip. 27nb was just trying to get the game going and I think two of the people she mentioned did not post. Even now three people have not posted so I would say we all have limited information.
3.Your point on YKZ claiming he only slips as mafia while playing town. I think this is 10000x more worthy than the "limited information" post. Is YKZ's slip the "limited information" post? I still think this point is very important even though I do not think YKZ slipped with the kenpachi rule or the "limited information"
4. I do not think talk about blue would lead to mafia finding out the blue players. Although it seems bad to claim blue players day one right? If I was scum and said I was vigilante and there was actually someone vigilante, they would shoot me the first night. If I was VT and claimed vigilante, it would help lead scum to target a "less worthy player". But the risk seems to high for that tactic to be valuable. Also i used "less worthy player" because a smart VT would obviously be more worthy than an unintelligent vigilante that shot a PR.
5. Also that speculate post was really ambiguous and I think i may have caused that. I was not speculating that YKZ was a blue. I was trying to show a possibility that was being overlooked by a player. Then 27nb said "I wouldnt speculate" well is she telling me not to speculate or saying she would not personally speculate.
Appears to want a discussion with me. + Show Spoiler +On June 17 2014 00:13 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 17:12 Release wrote:On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote:
So far I am leaning towards 27nb as scum. Although i said the kenpachi rule is useless, now that i understand it better, it does have some merit. It seems like for a scum to claim VT first day would be a tactic that would be stupidly selfish, since it would most likely hurt the whole scum team. It seems like a tactic only a bad scum team would use. (But how would a scum team know it had a disadvantage. Maybe with poor roles? Maybe by meta? I do not think a scum team would plan to use the kenpachi rule to their favor.) 27nb has not really commented on the kenpachi rule and is just dismissing it.
Also i am not voting for her yet.
Only eight out of the twelve players have posted so far, so it seems too early.
My reads for other players so far.
Artanis, sloosh and Ve have not said much so no read.
goodkarma seems to be playing standard. Nothing really sticking out at me for now. Maybe I will reread his posts.
Chezinu has a high ratio of text to information. Seems weird but it only the first day. I do not think this information is sufficient enough to even mention the s word.
YKZ seems to be a very knowledgeable player.
It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one.
Please comment on my thoughts First bold is incorrect. YKZ has been acted stubbornly incorrectly and has misrepresented information in a manner that implies that he is correct and 27nb is wrong (whereas the opposite is true). So you essentially have no reads? I doubt anyone has any solid reads except for/against 27nb and YKZ. Weird to include an entire paragraph about null. The above implies bad/useless town but the next paragraph changes my read completely (as it did for 27nb). Second bold: You would prefer that YKZ be town and therefore believe that 27nb is scum? The roles have already been determined. That is a complete lack of reasoning for wanting a lynch but still being swayed? That reeks of scum trying to jump on the bandwagon. On June 16 2014 12:32 Snickers wrote:On June 16 2014 12:14 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 12:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 12:03 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:59 slOosh wrote:
What is this "limited information" that you guys are getting at? On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? What's truly amazing here is what an awesome example this is for Kenpachi Rule Extended. Even after I call it you're still doing it. Assuming you do in fact flip scum I'll have to write a post game analysis just on the first few pages of this game. Maybe I could tie it in with a general Kenpachi and Kenpachi Rule Extended / Zephirdd Rule tutorial. I'm getting more excited by the minute! BH I thought you were some amazing mafia player? Obviously not because YOU ARE WRONG ON ME! And I'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game. See the statement is suspicious to me "i'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game." why the end of the game. It could easily be prove "wrong" the first night. "wrong" as in if your lynched and shown as town. Or if YKZ is lynched and showed scum.I am just trying to show where I think 27nb is thinking in a strange way. Maybe she just thinks that way normally. I do not think the kenpachi rule can be proven wrong. I think it can be proven to not be 100% right though. I think saying it is wrong is stating it has no merit at all. I already explained why i thought a scum could potentially claim VT day one to attempt for an advantage. Also sloosh thanks for posting. I think this kenpachi rule should still be discussed a little more, but I see where you think we should stop the seeming rigmarole. That is a strange statement because asking for town to die to prove something is ridiculous, and is against our goal to kill mafia. However, the second part is correct. Why would you include the first part in this statement? Reeks of mafia. Also quick note on Scientific Method: Nothing can be proven correct, but 1 counterexample demonstrates a need to change the hypothesis. And from 27nb's perspective, I take a neutral stance on what she said. By the end of the game sounds like she was saying that she would be revealed as town when the game conclude, assuming that she would survive the entire game. As opposed to end of the day by getting a lynch of YKZ, but, at that point, not many people had taken a stance on the situation. It's passive but focussed on moving the game forward (as opposed to YKZ's comments which were designed to draw attention to himself and his survival). -----------------------Line for separation-------------------------- On June 16 2014 13:49 Snickers wrote:
Good post release, I wanted to comment on some of your points.
1.I think it should be stated that 27nb mentioned VT in a post before her vote post.
2.Also this "limited information" we all have different levels of information. This is a semi open game so we know what roles are possible but not the quantity. I am assuming that we all could be goons and VT? but even if we were not, information is simply not on the level of scum or town. A PR has more information that a VT because he knows his respective role exists in the game. So i think generally information goes scum>PR>Vt.
Also this "limited information" does not seem like a slip. 27nb was just trying to get the game going and I think two of the people she mentioned did not post. Even now three people have not posted so I would say we all have limited information. On day 1, information :: Mafia > Town.
3.Your point on YKZ claiming he only slips as mafia while playing town. I think this is 10000x more worthy than the "limited information" post. Is YKZ's slip the "limited information" post? I still think this point is very important even though I do not think YKZ slipped with the kenpachi rule or the "limited information"
4. I do not think talk about blue would lead to mafia finding out the blue players. Although it seems bad to claim blue players day one right? If I was scum and said I was vigilante and there was actually someone vigilante, they would shoot me the first night. If I was VT and claimed vigilante, it would help lead scum to target a "less worthy player". But the risk seems to high for that tactic to be valuable. Also i used "less worthy player" because a smart VT would obviously be more worthy than an unintelligent vigilante that shot a PR.
5. Also that speculate post was really ambiguous and I think i may have caused that. I was not speculating that YKZ was a blue. I was trying to show a possibility that was being overlooked by a player. Then 27nb said "I wouldnt speculate" well is she telling me not to speculate or saying she would not personally speculate.
@1: That was a question, separate from her vote. @2: I'm pretty sure we don't use roles on "night 0." (check the Godfather role on the OP) @3: Not too sure what you're asking but I can clarify: "Limited information" indicates scum because on Day 1, no one has any information except for the mafia, so assuming that YKZ is town, he should have less than or equal information to everyone else. Clearly, "limited information" implies that he has more and therefore cannot be town. next point: The Kenpachi rule does not apply but he insisted repeatedly and incorrectly that it did apply, causing chaos in town and trying to lead a mislynch. @4: That sounds really scummy. On day 1, blues have no information more than town so we need to keep them alive. Talking about blues can only increase that chance that mafia corrects identifies blue so talking about blue on day 1 favors mafia. @5: "You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip." this is incorrect. 27nb who thinks YKZ is scum does not speculate whether YKZ is blue because 27nb believes that YKZ is red. YKZ presents information as though 27nb is speculating which is the complete opposite of what is actually happening. Read the second part closely. Speculation only occurs if town is the hypothesis, which is not the case, so again, YKZ makes an incorrect statement and misleads us. 27nb's statement is not a scum slip by any stretch of the imagination. See below: On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
Snickers, you need to work a bit on your quoting, but not bad.
Just hit quote in the upper right corner of the post. It works better!
Also, pr means power role, so yes means same as blue.
I think coming out like that puts yourself in the spotlight.
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. On June 16 2014 11:22 27ninjabunnies wrote:
OMG Bh<3
WTG buddy!
hahaha. im laughing my ass off right now.
So what I'm saying here is that I think you are scum, and I'm not removing my vote from you..
But in the offchance you are town- which I don't believe one bit- town shouldnt speculate this early in the game whether or not a person is blue or just vt. That gives tooooo much information for mafia. That's what I was saying in sayng we shouldnt speculate whether or not you are blue.
That was definitely not a slip, so stop trying to grasp at straws because I caught you d1. Overall, this sounds like a soft defense of YKZ, and such a defense is untenable.\ + Show Spoiler +and with that I am off to bed So i do not think you guys should pick a statement and bold it when right after that statement i said why it would be terrible to do that. I was not asking for 27nb to die, I was saying it was strange for her to act super confident and not mention how she could prove him wrong less than 48 hours than now. 1.In my above post i showed where it was linked to her vote post. Also Her first post about VT was a question. The second one was not. It was then linked to the Vote Post. 2.and 3. Last time I am explaining this unless someone one new to the thread does not understand this. "no one has any information except for the mafia," Since this is a semi open game the knowledge of a PR and a VT is different. Pr knows that his respective role exists. Also we all have information through the posts. 4.So this actually makes sense why talking about blue would be bad day one. (Same logic applies for why we try to get scrum to speak on day one). But i do not think what i said was scummy. I think you said I was scummy then put a true statement after it to try and fool somebody. 5. I still do not understand this speculation idea. I do not think you understand me and are twisting my words a lot to hurt me. You also seem to be twisting 27nb's words a lot to protect her. You seemed to have missed the part where she mentions VT without the question mark. Claims I do not understand and that I twist his words, when I'm pretty sure I understood what he meant. He just doesn't want others to read his statements as mafia so he misrepresents his own ideas to make them appear town, when they are not. Misleading the town --> mafia agenda. + Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release Artanis case OP. I disagreed with it and so did slo0sh. + Show Spoiler +On June 17 2014 02:17 Snickers wrote:
Ok I'm on a mobile phone ATM and will not have a proper keyboard 9 hours from now.
First off. 27nb i will try to be more clear in nine hours with examples. My overall feelings on you is this. You were being super confident but did not use all the smack talk available to you. Again I will try to be more clear later.
Somebody wanted to know my thoughts on release.
For awhile I started to think that neither he , 27nb or ykz was scum. I think 27nb is most likely town now.
I think release is actually scum. He has aligned himself with bunnies and defended her but I think she was not in need of defense . I do not see a reason to defend someone not in trouble unless u know they are town. I think release saw a good time to cause confusion while also looking extremly town. It is good to align with a town as scum as a future defense, right?
Some people think I am siding with YKZ. I do not think it is smart to be siding with someone so early unless u know his or her role. I would argue I was going after 27 nab rather than defending YKZ. Also i said he seems knowledgable.
I think he def still is because of his knowledge on the lenpachi rule. You guys have been saying his use of it was wrong but not his definition of it. Also he is bh which u guys know him so he has played a lot. It seems weird for a player that has played a lot to slip so early. ( I know it sounds life I'm defending him now) I think he is knowledgable regardless of his role.
His posts do seem weird tho. He adds on little joking phrases to the end of some posts. Also why create a smurf then show ur actual self. I think he was reacting strongly to something. Flip. Claims defending a suspected towny is scummy. What I had been doing was more attacking YKZ and defending 27nb as a corollary. I said even said that 27nb is not necessarily towny because I thought town 27nb would have made my points already. It should be noted that this post is made after Artanis OP case on me. (sequence: he says I have good post, artanis case, misleading response from snickers, snickers firm flip) He harps quite a bit on the "information" and blue talk even after I try multiple times to dissuade him from doing so.Read the thread. You should be able to find it. + Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 13:49 Snickers wrote:
Good post release, I wanted to comment on some of your points.
1.I think it should be stated that 27nb mentioned VT in a post before her vote post.
2.Also this "limited information" we all have different levels of information. This is a semi open game so we know what roles are possible but not the quantity. I am assuming that we all could be goons and VT? but even if we were not, information is simply not on the level of scum or town. A PR has more information that a VT because he knows his respective role exists in the game. So i think generally information goes scum>PR>Vt.
Also this "limited information" does not seem like a slip. 27nb was just trying to get the game going and I think two of the people she mentioned did not post. Even now three people have not posted so I would say we all have limited information.
3.Your point on YKZ claiming he only slips as mafia while playing town. I think this is 10000x more worthy than the "limited information" post. Is YKZ's slip the "limited information" post? I still think this point is very important even though I do not think YKZ slipped with the kenpachi rule or the "limited information"
4. I do not think talk about blue would lead to mafia finding out the blue players. Although it seems bad to claim blue players day one right? If I was scum and said I was vigilante and there was actually someone vigilante, they would shoot me the first night. If I was VT and claimed vigilante, it would help lead scum to target a "less worthy player". But the risk seems to high for that tactic to be valuable. Also i used "less worthy player" because a smart VT would obviously be more worthy than an unintelligent vigilante that shot a PR.
5. Also that speculate post was really ambiguous and I think i may have caused that. I was not speculating that YKZ was a blue. I was trying to show a possibility that was being overlooked by a player. Then 27nb said "I wouldnt speculate" well is she telling me not to speculate or saying she would not personally speculate.
On June 17 2014 00:13 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 17:12 Release wrote:On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote:
So far I am leaning towards 27nb as scum. Although i said the kenpachi rule is useless, now that i understand it better, it does have some merit. It seems like for a scum to claim VT first day would be a tactic that would be stupidly selfish, since it would most likely hurt the whole scum team. It seems like a tactic only a bad scum team would use. (But how would a scum team know it had a disadvantage. Maybe with poor roles? Maybe by meta? I do not think a scum team would plan to use the kenpachi rule to their favor.) 27nb has not really commented on the kenpachi rule and is just dismissing it.
Also i am not voting for her yet.
Only eight out of the twelve players have posted so far, so it seems too early.
My reads for other players so far.
Artanis, sloosh and Ve have not said much so no read.
goodkarma seems to be playing standard. Nothing really sticking out at me for now. Maybe I will reread his posts.
Chezinu has a high ratio of text to information. Seems weird but it only the first day. I do not think this information is sufficient enough to even mention the s word.
YKZ seems to be a very knowledgeable player.
It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one.
Please comment on my thoughts First bold is incorrect. YKZ has been acted stubbornly incorrectly and has misrepresented information in a manner that implies that he is correct and 27nb is wrong (whereas the opposite is true). So you essentially have no reads? I doubt anyone has any solid reads except for/against 27nb and YKZ. Weird to include an entire paragraph about null. The above implies bad/useless town but the next paragraph changes my read completely (as it did for 27nb). Second bold: You would prefer that YKZ be town and therefore believe that 27nb is scum? The roles have already been determined. That is a complete lack of reasoning for wanting a lynch but still being swayed? That reeks of scum trying to jump on the bandwagon. On June 16 2014 12:32 Snickers wrote:On June 16 2014 12:14 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 12:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 12:03 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:59 slOosh wrote:
What is this "limited information" that you guys are getting at? On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? What's truly amazing here is what an awesome example this is for Kenpachi Rule Extended. Even after I call it you're still doing it. Assuming you do in fact flip scum I'll have to write a post game analysis just on the first few pages of this game. Maybe I could tie it in with a general Kenpachi and Kenpachi Rule Extended / Zephirdd Rule tutorial. I'm getting more excited by the minute! BH I thought you were some amazing mafia player? Obviously not because YOU ARE WRONG ON ME! And I'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game. See the statement is suspicious to me "i'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game." why the end of the game. It could easily be prove "wrong" the first night. "wrong" as in if your lynched and shown as town. Or if YKZ is lynched and showed scum.I am just trying to show where I think 27nb is thinking in a strange way. Maybe she just thinks that way normally. I do not think the kenpachi rule can be proven wrong. I think it can be proven to not be 100% right though. I think saying it is wrong is stating it has no merit at all. I already explained why i thought a scum could potentially claim VT day one to attempt for an advantage. Also sloosh thanks for posting. I think this kenpachi rule should still be discussed a little more, but I see where you think we should stop the seeming rigmarole. That is a strange statement because asking for town to die to prove something is ridiculous, and is against our goal to kill mafia. However, the second part is correct. Why would you include the first part in this statement? Reeks of mafia. Also quick note on Scientific Method: Nothing can be proven correct, but 1 counterexample demonstrates a need to change the hypothesis. And from 27nb's perspective, I take a neutral stance on what she said. By the end of the game sounds like she was saying that she would be revealed as town when the game conclude, assuming that she would survive the entire game. As opposed to end of the day by getting a lynch of YKZ, but, at that point, not many people had taken a stance on the situation. It's passive but focussed on moving the game forward (as opposed to YKZ's comments which were designed to draw attention to himself and his survival). -----------------------Line for separation-------------------------- On June 16 2014 13:49 Snickers wrote:
Good post release, I wanted to comment on some of your points.
1.I think it should be stated that 27nb mentioned VT in a post before her vote post.
2.Also this "limited information" we all have different levels of information. This is a semi open game so we know what roles are possible but not the quantity. I am assuming that we all could be goons and VT? but even if we were not, information is simply not on the level of scum or town. A PR has more information that a VT because he knows his respective role exists in the game. So i think generally information goes scum>PR>Vt.
Also this "limited information" does not seem like a slip. 27nb was just trying to get the game going and I think two of the people she mentioned did not post. Even now three people have not posted so I would say we all have limited information. On day 1, information :: Mafia > Town.
3.Your point on YKZ claiming he only slips as mafia while playing town. I think this is 10000x more worthy than the "limited information" post. Is YKZ's slip the "limited information" post? I still think this point is very important even though I do not think YKZ slipped with the kenpachi rule or the "limited information"
4. I do not think talk about blue would lead to mafia finding out the blue players. Although it seems bad to claim blue players day one right? If I was scum and said I was vigilante and there was actually someone vigilante, they would shoot me the first night. If I was VT and claimed vigilante, it would help lead scum to target a "less worthy player". But the risk seems to high for that tactic to be valuable. Also i used "less worthy player" because a smart VT would obviously be more worthy than an unintelligent vigilante that shot a PR.
5. Also that speculate post was really ambiguous and I think i may have caused that. I was not speculating that YKZ was a blue. I was trying to show a possibility that was being overlooked by a player. Then 27nb said "I wouldnt speculate" well is she telling me not to speculate or saying she would not personally speculate.
@1: That was a question, separate from her vote. @2: I'm pretty sure we don't use roles on "night 0." (check the Godfather role on the OP) @3: Not too sure what you're asking but I can clarify: "Limited information" indicates scum because on Day 1, no one has any information except for the mafia, so assuming that YKZ is town, he should have less than or equal information to everyone else. Clearly, "limited information" implies that he has more and therefore cannot be town. next point: The Kenpachi rule does not apply but he insisted repeatedly and incorrectly that it did apply, causing chaos in town and trying to lead a mislynch. @4: That sounds really scummy. On day 1, blues have no information more than town so we need to keep them alive. Talking about blues can only increase that chance that mafia corrects identifies blue so talking about blue on day 1 favors mafia. @5: "You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip." this is incorrect. 27nb who thinks YKZ is scum does not speculate whether YKZ is blue because 27nb believes that YKZ is red. YKZ presents information as though 27nb is speculating which is the complete opposite of what is actually happening. Read the second part closely. Speculation only occurs if town is the hypothesis, which is not the case, so again, YKZ makes an incorrect statement and misleads us. 27nb's statement is not a scum slip by any stretch of the imagination. See below: On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
Snickers, you need to work a bit on your quoting, but not bad.
Just hit quote in the upper right corner of the post. It works better!
Also, pr means power role, so yes means same as blue.
I think coming out like that puts yourself in the spotlight.
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. On June 16 2014 11:22 27ninjabunnies wrote:
OMG Bh<3
WTG buddy!
hahaha. im laughing my ass off right now.
So what I'm saying here is that I think you are scum, and I'm not removing my vote from you..
But in the offchance you are town- which I don't believe one bit- town shouldnt speculate this early in the game whether or not a person is blue or just vt. That gives tooooo much information for mafia. That's what I was saying in sayng we shouldnt speculate whether or not you are blue.
That was definitely not a slip, so stop trying to grasp at straws because I caught you d1. Overall, this sounds like a soft defense of YKZ, and such a defense is untenable.\ + Show Spoiler +and with that I am off to bed So i do not think you guys should pick a statement and bold it when right after that statement i said why it would be terrible to do that. I was not asking for 27nb to die, I was saying it was strange for her to act super confident and not mention how she could prove him wrong less than 48 hours than now. 1.In my above post i showed where it was linked to her vote post. Also Her first post about VT was a question. The second one was not. It was then linked to the Vote Post. 2.and 3. Last time I am explaining this unless someone one new to the thread does not understand this. "no one has any information except for the mafia," Since this is a semi open game the knowledge of a PR and a VT is different. Pr knows that his respective role exists. Also we all have information through the posts. 4.So this actually makes sense why talking about blue would be bad day one. (Same logic applies for why we try to get scrum to speak on day one). But i do not think what i said was scummy. I think you said I was scummy then put a true statement after it to try and fool somebody. 5. I still do not understand this speculation idea. I do not think you understand me and are twisting my words a lot to hurt me. You also seem to be twisting 27nb's words a lot to protect her. You seemed to have missed the part where she mentions VT without the question mark. On June 17 2014 11:50 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 08:25 Release wrote:On June 17 2014 03:00 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 17 2014 02:39 Release wrote:
@Lazer (and everyone else): His actions alone are bad. The repetitiveness of the badness and refusal to change his play after being corrected manifest his mafia agenda. "blazinghand is stubborn, therefore he is mafia" and "blazinghand has scumslipped, therefore he is mafia" are both sentences that are like always super doops wrong. I certainly can be stubborn as mafia, but I'm always stubborn. And the scumslip thing, come on guys. I legit don't scumslip as scum, and scumslip all the time as town, ask like anyone who has played more than 2 games with me. Also, I'm just generally a stubborn bastard no matter what I roll; again, ask anyone who has played with me. I will say this though: although I don't particularly like that Release is all over me like a dog on a butt-flavored biscuit, I gotta give him credit: he IS all over me. He went through my filter and tried to find anything he could possibly construe as scummy and slapped it down in a big honkin filter dive case. Now, it's a big honkin WRONG filter drive case, but it's still a lot of effort. Maybe he was explicitly dodging Kenpachi Rule Extended, but he still gets mondo credit for putting in effort imo. Is release scummy for jumping in and just repeating what other people said? Eh, maybe. It's certainly a easy move for scum to make, but it's also worth noting that it's a move town would make. Suppose Release comes in and sees this horrible back and forth between me and 27nb, and for some weird reason becomes convinced I'm scum as a result. He wants to drop a vote on me, but also there's like no-one voting me, so he drops a hella big case. He does work, he does research. I give him credit for this, at least. Yes, it would have been good if he had an original idea, but if he didn't, he didn't. There's only so much to be said about me. Maybe you think he's scum because you think I'm scum and this is the most poorly executed bus ever, but really, 1) it would be a terrible way to do it, and 2) as SloOsh said (and he gets mucho townie points for this) you don't draw associative tells between unflipped players. Back onto the 27nb thing, Check it out. If you look at 27nb's filter, you see the initial push on me, and you see some interactions on me in places where I directly call out 27nb, but that's it as far as interactions with me. Check out some of the posts I made after the post that set off 27nb's "flag" so to speak about me being scummy: On June 16 2014 11:05 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 10:58 Snickers wrote:Also, your posts are giving me BH vibes.
Hello everyone. I am not sure how to quote someone so if the above quote was wrong please tell me how. (I checked preview and it looked right) What does BH stand for? For awhile i thought VT stood for vigilante not vanilla town. Also this kenpachi rule is useless. BH stands for "Blazinghand": he is a mafia-guy who is mean to newbies and throws around his "vet" status in games and thinks he is way better then everyone else. ne1 who thinks I am BH also thinks I am town tho cuz BH's favorite thing is to fake claim blue roles every game when he is scum. He would never claim vt as scum bcuz he wants to fake claim blue rofl In this post i'm explicitly stating I'm not BH and trying to fake not being me. Even worse, I'm setting up the "bh claiming vt must be town" meme and I later "accidentally" reveal myself to be BH. If I were someone who thought YKZ was scum and saw this, I'd be all over it. I'd point out that it's awfully CONVENIENT to say that and then "accidentally" reveal yourself to be bh. I'd write a case, or at least a post, or heck, at least a SENTENCE, about this. Since I'm already suspicious of YKZ, since I supposedly have a scumread on YKZ, responding to this would be a NATURAL thing to do if I was town and voting YKZ. And yet, no response from 27nb (who was in thread at the time) next.. On June 16 2014 11:34 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 11:27 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 11:13 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip. This reminds me of something you once said in Les Mafia: On May 22 2013 15:51 Blazinghand wrote:
DP, you're not bad, you're just wrong about scumslips. When I flip town, promise me this: for the next full game played, any time you mention scumslips you will say "I was wrong, BH was right, there is no such thing as a scumslip" Did something change? Yeah in the YKZ quote nobody thought I was blazinghand, so I thought I could get away with the fallacious "scumslip" argument, since you guys clearly aren't willing to accept the reasonable Kenpachi Rule argument. The fact of the matter is, 27nb IS scum because of Kenpachi Rule. I'm allowed to lie, cheat, steal, etc (well not cheat but you get the idea) to get you sheep to follow me and lynch him. The ends justify the means. also, 27nb's retconned case on me that's about me saying s/he doesn't have good info is based on, you guessed it, another scumslip. Let me get it through everyone's heads: I, Blazinghand, am by far the best scum player on TL Mafia. I may not be an amazing town player, I admit, but I am a GOD of scum, I only ever scumslip as town. You can look at my past games; every time someone calls me out for a scumslip, I'm town. You know why? As town, I don't have to bother worrying about scumslips cause I know I am innocent. As scum, I play a much cleaner game in terms of slips because I have to. So, 27nb's slip-based case on me actually proves how townie I am, and his/her hilarious backtracking on calling me potentially blue only shows how scummy 27nb is. Look at what I'm saying here. I'm literally admitting to lying to and deceiving the thread. I then say it's okay to lie and that the ends justify the means. Jesus christ on a stick with a cherry on top, how do you not flip out over this if you're town and think I'm scum? You'd be like "look, BH is obviously willing to lie. He was trying to pretend to be someone else while smurfing, which is a CLASSIC BH move when smurfing as scum. He even admits it, right here, in an attempt to defuse the situation. You can't let this slide guys, this is proof BH is scum" anyone who thinks I'm suspicious and has a vote on me, after reading that I admit to lying and trying to decieve the thread, would be ALL OVER this post. You want to know how 27nb responds, though? Here, I'll show you. On June 16 2014 11:39 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:34 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 11:27 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 11:13 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip. This reminds me of something you once said in Les Mafia: On May 22 2013 15:51 Blazinghand wrote:
DP, you're not bad, you're just wrong about scumslips. When I flip town, promise me this: for the next full game played, any time you mention scumslips you will say "I was wrong, BH was right, there is no such thing as a scumslip" Did something change? Yeah in the YKZ quote nobody thought I was blazinghand, so I thought I could get away with the fallacious "scumslip" argument, since you guys clearly aren't willing to accept the reasonable Kenpachi Rule argument. The fact of the matter is, 27nb IS scum because of Kenpachi Rule. I'm allowed to lie, cheat, steal, etc (well not cheat but you get the idea) to get you sheep to follow me and lynch him. The ends justify the means. also, 27nb's retconned case on me that's about me saying s/he doesn't have good info is based on, you guessed it, another scumslip. Let me get it through everyone's heads: I, Blazinghand, am by far the best scum player on TL Mafia. I may not be an amazing town player, I admit, but I am a GOD of scum, I only ever scumslip as town. You can look at my past games; every time someone calls me out for a scumslip, I'm town. You know why? As town, I don't have to bother worrying about scumslips cause I know I am innocent. As scum, I play a much cleaner game in terms of slips because I have to. So, 27nb's slip-based case on me actually proves how townie I am, and his/her hilarious backtracking on calling me potentially blue only shows how scummy 27nb is. You are soooooo wrong on me. It's super bad. And tbh, idc what you think of yourself, but you haven't impressed me ass the "best" in TL Mafia. I caught your mafia self d1. Get rekt! And as I said, Kenpachi rule is useless and stupid, and it will be highly disproved this game. I have no need to backtrack, and I had not backtracked anywhere. I'm going forward with this lynch and into the abyss you go! All 27nb sees is the part of the post directed at her. She argues about like backtracking or whatever, and says she's going forward with this lynch while literally ignoring possibly the most damning statement a player could make. If she was really town and really thought I was scum, at this point she'd say, not "blah blah kenpachi rule backtracking, your'e so bad and i'm so good", she'd say, "ah hah! Caught you in a lie, blazinghand, this is exactly what scum do!" You can see she's clearly not in a mindset of hunting scum, or hell, even actually PUSHING The wagon. She is putting on a big SHOW of pushing the wagon, but she's not actually doing it. She's not pointing out what I'm posting, or why I'm scum, just shouting about like one sentence in one post. She's not hunting scum. She's making noise. This is because she lacks the town mindset, the mindset that someone who really thought I was scum would have. Because 27nb is scum. vote her, for justice. @ first 4 paragraphs: The first sentence is again deliberate misrepresentation of the information that I have presented. Blazinghand is stubbornly wrong even when corrected and refuses to acknowledge corrections and is therefore mafia is the complete picture. This is the same misrepresentation of information he used earlier to cause chaos and it is used to cause chaos now. And the scumslip (which to my mind is the "more information") is NOT the reason that I think you are mafia. Please stop trying to twist information to suit your agenda. I do not merely repeat what has been said. I created a case on you with greater breadth and depth than 27nb did. And maybe you should pay more attention to what SloOsh is saying because he has asked useful questions when (mostly) you and 27nb have caused havoc in the thread. Now disregarding that, my case demonstrates that your logic in your play is incorrect. A proper defense is not to say "If I were scum, I would have..." because that is meaningless. Instead, you need to demonstrates that your logic is not incorrect. Otherwise, I think we should still construe YKZ's earlier posts as deliberate chaos. On June 17 2014 03:11 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 17 2014 01:42 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release Boring, why so? And I know I'm town, so you think Release is more likely scum defending a town here? Or do you think it's scum defending a partner this early into the game? I'm thinking we're both town here. Though, i agree, he is basically just sayng everything I've already said. Boring because you both just kept repeating the same things but in different words and it wasn't going anywhere for me to get a read on either of you. I don't know your alignment and I'm not going to make an association between unflipped players. People did that in cell. You supported that as mafia. Why are you trying to create associations now? On June 17 2014 01:45 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 22:45 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? I agree Release is looking scummy, but I wouldn't use that exact wording. He seems heavily invested in his case, but is only leaning towards ninja's side of this debate. These two statements especially didn't sit right with me from Release's post on 21:10 15 June 2014: "As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies." And yet he ends this same post: "I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ." Release doesn't seem that interested in what may develop from YKZ. He already has the verdict in mind... This is a HUGE inconsistency from how he starts his post. You have a point here I really like. Which makes me wonder if scum defending a town here. He's not even considering in what YKZ could or could not do. But then if that's the case, and Release is scum, then YKZ is town, and I don't like that. I really really want to be right that YKZ is scum. This gives me a slight scumread on you. Wanting to be right is an easy reason to lean back on without actually saying anything. On June 17 2014 02:38 Release wrote:
Currently this is our only point of discussion, although your vote on me now introduces a discussion about me.
wordy words Boring. You could've introduced a discussion about anyone that had an opinion on the case for bullshit reasons. You also keep repeating yourself in the post as well. If you want me to actually read your posts thoroughly, be more to the point. I'm not interested in your description of what you provided and what you want. It won't help me get a more accurate read on you. On June 17 2014 02:38 slOosh wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I'm sorry, how is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He hasn't rehashed anything, it's original content and wordiness is alignment null. Release made a giant post about stuff that was really boring so I didn't get very far in it. The first part is definitely rehash. You're right in that he did add some original content afterwards though. Wordiness being alignment null is debatable but that debate wouldn't go anywhere so let's agree to disagree on that. I "repeat" myself because YKZ makes similar chaotic plays with the same agenda. I rehashed some of the dispute because I wanted to provide a complete argument as to why YKZ is mafia and I want to be specific about my references. On June 17 2014 03:19 Lazermonkey wrote:@Release: I'm sorry, I missread your post a little bit. Your argument is actually quite different from Bunnies. I do, however, still fail to understand how YKZ actions make him scum. Your argument seems like WIFOM to me. It's like you assume that YKZ is already scum and then try to justify his actions from that point of you. Have you even considered YKZ's actions from a town PoV? Assuming that he is trying to create chaos by missinterpreting Bunnies is a big leap of faith. I also do think that there is merit to the Kenpachi rule in this case. Even if Bunnies said nummerous times that the VT claim wasn't the reason she voted for YKZ, she still pointed out two times: On June 16 2014 09:42 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? Awwwww, how rude. Don't you know you are supposed to talk to a person when they are talking to you? Also-she. And Why right off the bat claim vt? On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 09:45 slOosh wrote:
Bunnies (ninja? 27?), who is smurf and why should we lynch him? YKZ is smurf. And at first, I just put him on the list to get conversation going. I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. Looking at these two posts, you get the impression that Bunnies is indeed suspicious of YKZ because of the claim. Bunnies later on refutes this by saying that her suspicion of YKZ had nothing to do with the VT claim, HOWEVER: On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 09:50 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? This post has no substance. And why would you talk down to bunny about him having limited information? Do you have less limited information? Also, another point to why I don't like YKZ is the bolded. He says I have limited information. How would he know that I am town? Well, if he was mafia he would know that I am town. So ##Vote: YKZ Note the bolded part. It doesn't say "look, this is a really scummy thing YKZ said", it says "look, this is another point I don't like". If she didn't care about him claiming VT, why say that it was another part she didn't like? If there is something that I find null in someones filter I don't say "Hey, this is wierd". I just don't say a thing about it. And the thing is that Bunnies doesn't say anything about this untill YKZ votes her with because of the Kenpachi rule. It is therefore impossible for us to know whether she is talking the truth or not about not caring about the VT thing. Her actions in the thread does, however, indicate that this was something she cared about. Which makes me belive that all this was just a massive backpaddle by Bunnies after she got caught doing scummy stuff. ##Vote: 27ninjabunnies Here is a very concise argument train of thought for you: YKZ claims vt 27 questions claim and in a SEPARATE post votes for "limited information" YKZ repeatedly claims that the vote is for the "vt" claim (incorrect/bad play, currently not particularly indicative of alignment) 27 states the vote is not for the claim, but for the "limited information" (lots of back and forth) but ultimately, YKZ insists that 27 is scum because of vote due to her vote due to vt claim (incorrect again while being corrected). here we consider: if YKZ were town, he would recognize his mistake and reevaluate the situation, and conclude that he was incorrect and therefore 27 is not mafia, and YKZ should unvote. However, YKZ doesn't and, therefore, YKZ has made a conscious choice to ignore corrections to his play, which is indicative of mafia. --------------------------------------- But you should consider the magnitude of the reasoning. You are correct in sayi ng that "another" implies the vt is relevant. However, the next two sentences and the vote form an independently logical sequence of events (and the vt claim alone did not procure a vote). This implies that "limited information" is the main reason for the vote. Care about it? somewhat. Enough to merit use of Kenpachi rule? doubt it. On June 17 2014 03:22 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 17 2014 03:13 slOosh wrote:Hmm, not quite feeling the flaming spears of logic and justice yet. On June 16 2014 12:46 slOosh wrote:
I can see a somewhat reasonable case to be made that bunnies is not a stellar townie, but I don't see the case being made that she must be scum. Why isn't she "bad" town? I think my most recent post demonstrates that 27nb's attention is drawn towards statements about her, rather than incriminating things I say-- even a bad townie would naturally respond to me saying things like "I lied to decieve town because I thought I could get away with it", whereas scum regardless of badness would naturally respond to me saying kenpachi rule but NOT respond to additional evidence. It's not a matter of skill, it's a matter of mindset. A townie, even a new townie (I remember being one), when thyey have a scumread on someone and that person does something really scummy, they RESPOND to it. they add it to their case. It's the natural thought process of a town player REGARDLESS of skill. 27nb is not showing this natural thought process. Look at her responses to my posts. Is she responding to things I say that are scummy or inconsistent and pointing out their inconsistency? Or is she just shouting about my first post whenever she gets the chance, and not actually trying to convince people to lynch me based on new evidence that emerges? A townie who was really tunnelled on me would LOVE to point out new scummy things I say, because he's still trying to formulate and develop a case. 27nb is always talking about me, sure, but look at WHAT she's responding to. Not the stuff a townie would. This is always your argument. 'Not one specific town agenda and therefore mafia." There are multiple ways to play town (since you clearly claim to enjoy pretending to scumslip and most others do not). On June 17 2014 03:48 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 17 2014 03:40 Lazermonkey wrote:On June 17 2014 03:33 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 17 2014 03:28 Lazermonkey wrote:On June 17 2014 03:21 slOosh wrote:
Lazermonkey, what is the "scummy stuff" that bunnies is backpedaling from? The quick version: 1. Bunnies says that YKZ's VT claim is wierd and that she doesn't like it. 2. Bunnies says that ANOTHER thing the she doesn't like about YKZ is his "scum slip". Bunnes votes for YKZ. 3. YKZ votes Bunnies because Kenpachi rule. 4. Bunnies claims that the VT claim wasn't a reason she voted YKZ. 4. It wasn't the MAIN reason I voted YKZ. Okay, I'm not really interested in discussing this further with you. My goal isn't to make you confess in the thread. Its to convince the others. It is basically that it is impossible for us to know that what you are claiming is true or not. Based on what you wrote earlier I do find it more likely that you are scum than that you are town though. Understandable: also ##UnvoteI know this is not going to get votes off of me, and I'm fine with that. But YKZ's last few posts have been a bit towny, especially his read on Artansis. I'm starting to worry we are two town fighting. I also don't want my judgement clouded by my vote on YKZ and would like to hear more from other people. His posting has mostly been to say that town (a very specific town) would have done X but did Y and therefore mafia. Do you guys agree with this kind of arguement? Because I certainly do not. I urge you to reconsider you unvote on YKZ. On June 17 2014 07:05 goodkarma wrote:On June 17 2014 02:38 slOosh wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I'm sorry, how is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He hasn't rehashed anything, it's original content and wordiness is alignment null. On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? Hmm? How does it make him scum? On June 16 2014 22:45 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? I agree Release is looking scummy, but I wouldn't use that exact wording. He seems heavily invested in his case, but is only leaning towards ninja's side of this debate. These two statements especially didn't sit right with me from Release's post on 21:10 15 June 2014: "As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies." And yet he ends this same post: "I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ." Release doesn't seem that interested in what may develop from YKZ. He already has the verdict in mind... This is a HUGE inconsistency from how he starts his post. Where's the inconsistency? Leaning may not be indicative of degree of conviction, but merely the direction of it. On June 17 2014 01:45 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 22:45 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? I agree Release is looking scummy, but I wouldn't use that exact wording. He seems heavily invested in his case, but is only leaning towards ninja's side of this debate. These two statements especially didn't sit right with me from Release's post on 21:10 15 June 2014: "As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies." And yet he ends this same post: "I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ." Release doesn't seem that interested in what may develop from YKZ. He already has the verdict in mind... This is a HUGE inconsistency from how he starts his post. You have a point here I really like. Which makes me wonder if scum defending a town here. He's not even considering in what YKZ could or could not do. But then if that's the case, and Release is scum, then YKZ is town, and I don't like that. I really really want to be right that YKZ is scum. You are starting to make associations here and I don't think that's a good idea. Focus on them as individuals. I'm not really sure what else to say here except that there's a large variance of degrees. How I see it, you have release saying "I'm leaning YKZ scum" on first quote and saying "I am unequivocally convinced YKZ is scum" on second one. Release has since posted something in disagreement, but this is what I see when looking at that post. What's more, when would town ever say "...what needs to be said to incriminate..."? That's some super-scummy wording. Town looks to determine who's scum, not to make someone look like scum. Further, when thinking back on my own games the way Release has posted is almost exactly how I handled my first mafia game. I posted a huge case on an easy target then AFK'ed, only posting when I felt I had to. Looking at a few of his past games (when he was town), he had a much easier to follow flow with his posts. Every post in this game feels very calculated, and given how I personally liked to post in previous games as scum, it's easy for me to see how as an insecure newbie scum he would feel inclined to stack as much together as he could into a few very carefully planted posts. Incriminate: " To cause to appear guilty of a crime or fault; implicate" I believe that YKZ is guilty of a crime of fault, but others do not share that opinion with me. Therefore, it is my duty to convince others (you) of his guilt by causing him to appear to be guilty. I see nothing wrong with the use of the word. It is an apt choice. (would you have preferred implicate? same meaning) OP says to reduce spam / one-liners and I play the game fitfully (about an hour each time). On June 17 2014 07:29 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 17 2014 04:46 slOosh wrote:Yea I so I think Artanis is scum. On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release Here is his first post, top of page 8. There are many unnatural things about this post. First is his complaining tone. We are only 5 pages in, and yet he calls it all "bullshit". It's totally out of place and unnatural. Then he moves away from it and blames Release. Two things here. One is that he does nothing to either comment on, or figure out said "bullshit". No reads or questions on either YKZ / 27nb. Nothing to try to figure either one out. Just a straight up dismissal of the whole thing, and moving on to someone else. Next is how he blames Release for it all. When I press him on this issue: On June 17 2014 03:11 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 17 2014 02:38 slOosh wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I'm sorry, how is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He hasn't rehashed anything, it's original content and wordiness is alignment null. Release made a giant post about stuff that was really boring so I didn't get very far in it. The first part is definitely rehash. You're right in that he did add some original content afterwards though. Wordiness being alignment null is debatable but that debate wouldn't go anywhere so let's agree to disagree on that. Nothing but fluff. He doesn't offer any meaningful reason why Release is scum. Look at the backpedaling. "oh yea I guess he added content. I could argue that wordiness isn't alignment null but I won't". He doesn't really care to convince me or others why he finds Release scum. He just wants to put his vote somewhere to look like he is contributing. He dodges the question the first time around so I ask him again: On June 17 2014 03:26 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 17 2014 03:17 slOosh wrote:On June 17 2014 03:11 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 17 2014 02:38 slOosh wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I'm sorry, how is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He hasn't rehashed anything, it's original content and wordiness is alignment null. Release made a giant post about stuff that was really boring so I didn't get very far in it. The first part is definitely rehash. You're right in that he did add some original content afterwards though. Wordiness being alignment null is debatable but that debate wouldn't go anywhere so let's agree to disagree on that. How is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He's the perpetrator of the conversation continuing about that specific topic. Ridiculous. Release is trying to make sense of the debacle, and Artanis is overexaggerating, blaming him for "perpetrating" this "bullshit", while making no effort to either figure out the YKZ / bunnies thing himself, nor make clear how Release is scum for it. Just vague handwaving and avoiding the biggest discussion topic at the time. Artanis is unnatural, Artanis is apathetic, Artanis is scum. ##Vote Artanis[Xp] I think this post makes slOosh scum. DETAILS AT ELEVEN!!! Really? Because he has been the one asking clarifying questions, obviously with a purpose behind them. That fits townie agenda of forwarding the game in my book. Currently, I feel confident in SloOsh and Lazer as town for candid presentation of information and quetions. I feel that 27nb is town but to a lesser extent. I feel confident in YKZ as mafia. I have 100% corrected you and you did not respond to me at all. You had two main points in your first post. 1. Bunnies connection with YKZ's VT claim. 2. "limited information". I questioned you about the VT claim and even after going back to check yourself you still reported false information. Then i said you were still wrong and you still have not responding. You are not even following your own guidelines to not look like scum. Also this "limited information" this has a detail we all missed. I have never read anywhere in the rules where you have to read your role pm before starting play. Obviously u should (have to?) before day one ends. So we all had "equal info" unless we assume someone has read his role pm. It seems like a weird tactic but i still believe this "limited information" thing has very little value. So one of the two things your first post was based on was just wrong and you still did not correct it. The other thing has very little value in my opinion. I am leaning pretty hard to vote for you. Especially when two people have posted how your post had such a great timing. Also i would really like to hear from oats and hear more for the world cup watcher. Also Chezinu's encryption is a hassle. On June 17 2014 12:23 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 00:13 Snickers wrote:On June 16 2014 17:12 Release wrote:On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote:
So far I am leaning towards 27nb as scum. Although i said the kenpachi rule is useless, now that i understand it better, it does have some merit. It seems like for a scum to claim VT first day would be a tactic that would be stupidly selfish, since it would most likely hurt the whole scum team. It seems like a tactic only a bad scum team would use. (But how would a scum team know it had a disadvantage. Maybe with poor roles? Maybe by meta? I do not think a scum team would plan to use the kenpachi rule to their favor.) 27nb has not really commented on the kenpachi rule and is just dismissing it.
Also i am not voting for her yet.
Only eight out of the twelve players have posted so far, so it seems too early.
My reads for other players so far.
Artanis, sloosh and Ve have not said much so no read.
goodkarma seems to be playing standard. Nothing really sticking out at me for now. Maybe I will reread his posts.
Chezinu has a high ratio of text to information. Seems weird but it only the first day. I do not think this information is sufficient enough to even mention the s word.
YKZ seems to be a very knowledgeable player.
It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one.
Please comment on my thoughts First bold is incorrect. YKZ has been acted stubbornly incorrectly and has misrepresented information in a manner that implies that he is correct and 27nb is wrong (whereas the opposite is true). So you essentially have no reads? I doubt anyone has any solid reads except for/against 27nb and YKZ. Weird to include an entire paragraph about null. The above implies bad/useless town but the next paragraph changes my read completely (as it did for 27nb). Second bold: You would prefer that YKZ be town and therefore believe that 27nb is scum? The roles have already been determined. That is a complete lack of reasoning for wanting a lynch but still being swayed? That reeks of scum trying to jump on the bandwagon. On June 16 2014 12:32 Snickers wrote:On June 16 2014 12:14 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 12:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 12:03 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:59 slOosh wrote:
What is this "limited information" that you guys are getting at? On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? What's truly amazing here is what an awesome example this is for Kenpachi Rule Extended. Even after I call it you're still doing it. Assuming you do in fact flip scum I'll have to write a post game analysis just on the first few pages of this game. Maybe I could tie it in with a general Kenpachi and Kenpachi Rule Extended / Zephirdd Rule tutorial. I'm getting more excited by the minute! BH I thought you were some amazing mafia player? Obviously not because YOU ARE WRONG ON ME! And I'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game. See the statement is suspicious to me "i'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game." why the end of the game. It could easily be prove "wrong" the first night. "wrong" as in if your lynched and shown as town. Or if YKZ is lynched and showed scum.I am just trying to show where I think 27nb is thinking in a strange way. Maybe she just thinks that way normally. I do not think the kenpachi rule can be proven wrong. I think it can be proven to not be 100% right though. I think saying it is wrong is stating it has no merit at all. I already explained why i thought a scum could potentially claim VT day one to attempt for an advantage. Also sloosh thanks for posting. I think this kenpachi rule should still be discussed a little more, but I see where you think we should stop the seeming rigmarole. That is a strange statement because asking for town to die to prove something is ridiculous, and is against our goal to kill mafia. However, the second part is correct. Why would you include the first part in this statement? Reeks of mafia. Also quick note on Scientific Method: Nothing can be proven correct, but 1 counterexample demonstrates a need to change the hypothesis. And from 27nb's perspective, I take a neutral stance on what she said. By the end of the game sounds like she was saying that she would be revealed as town when the game conclude, assuming that she would survive the entire game. As opposed to end of the day by getting a lynch of YKZ, but, at that point, not many people had taken a stance on the situation. It's passive but focussed on moving the game forward (as opposed to YKZ's comments which were designed to draw attention to himself and his survival). -----------------------Line for separation-------------------------- On June 16 2014 13:49 Snickers wrote:
Good post release, I wanted to comment on some of your points.
1.I think it should be stated that 27nb mentioned VT in a post before her vote post.
2.Also this "limited information" we all have different levels of information. This is a semi open game so we know what roles are possible but not the quantity. I am assuming that we all could be goons and VT? but even if we were not, information is simply not on the level of scum or town. A PR has more information that a VT because he knows his respective role exists in the game. So i think generally information goes scum>PR>Vt.
Also this "limited information" does not seem like a slip. 27nb was just trying to get the game going and I think two of the people she mentioned did not post. Even now three people have not posted so I would say we all have limited information. On day 1, information :: Mafia > Town.
3.Your point on YKZ claiming he only slips as mafia while playing town. I think this is 10000x more worthy than the "limited information" post. Is YKZ's slip the "limited information" post? I still think this point is very important even though I do not think YKZ slipped with the kenpachi rule or the "limited information"
4. I do not think talk about blue would lead to mafia finding out the blue players. Although it seems bad to claim blue players day one right? If I was scum and said I was vigilante and there was actually someone vigilante, they would shoot me the first night. If I was VT and claimed vigilante, it would help lead scum to target a "less worthy player". But the risk seems to high for that tactic to be valuable. Also i used "less worthy player" because a smart VT would obviously be more worthy than an unintelligent vigilante that shot a PR.
5. Also that speculate post was really ambiguous and I think i may have caused that. I was not speculating that YKZ was a blue. I was trying to show a possibility that was being overlooked by a player. Then 27nb said "I wouldnt speculate" well is she telling me not to speculate or saying she would not personally speculate.
@1: That was a question, separate from her vote. @2: I'm pretty sure we don't use roles on "night 0." (check the Godfather role on the OP) @3: Not too sure what you're asking but I can clarify: "Limited information" indicates scum because on Day 1, no one has any information except for the mafia, so assuming that YKZ is town, he should have less than or equal information to everyone else. Clearly, "limited information" implies that he has more and therefore cannot be town. next point: The Kenpachi rule does not apply but he insisted repeatedly and incorrectly that it did apply, causing chaos in town and trying to lead a mislynch. @4: That sounds really scummy. On day 1, blues have no information more than town so we need to keep them alive. Talking about blues can only increase that chance that mafia corrects identifies blue so talking about blue on day 1 favors mafia. @5: "You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip." this is incorrect. 27nb who thinks YKZ is scum does not speculate whether YKZ is blue because 27nb believes that YKZ is red. YKZ presents information as though 27nb is speculating which is the complete opposite of what is actually happening. Read the second part closely. Speculation only occurs if town is the hypothesis, which is not the case, so again, YKZ makes an incorrect statement and misleads us. 27nb's statement is not a scum slip by any stretch of the imagination. See below: On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
Snickers, you need to work a bit on your quoting, but not bad.
Just hit quote in the upper right corner of the post. It works better!
Also, pr means power role, so yes means same as blue.
I think coming out like that puts yourself in the spotlight.
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. On June 16 2014 11:22 27ninjabunnies wrote:
OMG Bh<3
WTG buddy!
hahaha. im laughing my ass off right now.
So what I'm saying here is that I think you are scum, and I'm not removing my vote from you..
But in the offchance you are town- which I don't believe one bit- town shouldnt speculate this early in the game whether or not a person is blue or just vt. That gives tooooo much information for mafia. That's what I was saying in sayng we shouldnt speculate whether or not you are blue.
That was definitely not a slip, so stop trying to grasp at straws because I caught you d1. Overall, this sounds like a soft defense of YKZ, and such a defense is untenable.\ + Show Spoiler +and with that I am off to bed So i do not think you guys should pick a statement and bold it when right after that statement i said why it would be terrible to do that. I was not asking for 27nb to die, I was saying it was strange for her to act super confident and not mention how she could prove him wrong less than 48 hours than now. 1.In my above post i showed where it was linked to her vote post. Also Her first post about VT was a question. The second one was not. It was then linked to the Vote Post. 2.and 3. Last time I am explaining this unless someone one new to the thread does not understand this. "no one has any information except for the mafia," Since this is a semi open game the knowledge of a PR and a VT is different. Pr knows that his respective role exists. Also we all have information through the posts. 4.So this actually makes sense why talking about blue would be bad day one. (Same logic applies for why we try to get scrum to speak on day one). But i do not think what i said was scummy. I think you said I was scummy then put a true statement after it to try and fool somebody. 5. I still do not understand this speculation idea. I do not think you understand me and are twisting my words a lot to hurt me. You also seem to be twisting 27nb's words a lot to protect her. You seemed to have missed the part where she mentions VT without the question mark. you never responded to this post. Also you seem to not understand the fact that pr have more info than VT. Also you keep highlighting the same thing i did but have you read what i wrote right after that. On June 17 2014 12:54 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 12:44 Release wrote:
Not on day 1 and there is no point in talking about it on day 1.
I read it and it does not excuse illogical play. Regardless of 0/1/2 of 2 scum, you wish does not affect their roles. You soft retract your statement by saying it's a bad reason, but why say it in the first place if that is the case? ok start quoting because i have no clue what "it" is. It is a bad reason why? because we had such little information at the time. I was providing the most detail i could of why i thought 27nb was scum. It was a "long shot" but it still gave me another reason to. I do not understand two thirds of your above post. Why would I not say a bad reason. By bad reason i meant the game was probably going to end up with a lot better reasons for a scum. I am voting you know. I already showed multiple reasons why. ##Vote Release And admit that you are wrong about information. PR has more information than VT. This is a semi open game. PR know if his role exists. VT does not know if any or what PR exists. PR does not know if even one VT exists?(Do not know if this is 100% right because i am new) VT knows at least one VT exists. Both said VT and PR know there is three mafia. Knowing there is a pr is more info than knowing there is a VT. On June 17 2014 13:17 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 13:05 Release wrote:
If you read the original situation in which the information is said, the information relates to 27nb calling out 3 purported mafia and YKZ saying she has less information. It pertains to knowing who and who isn't mafia, and in this case, VT and PR are equally informed (since it is day 1). Knowing there is a pr does not in any way help call out 3 mafia. Therefore it is the same and we should stop talking about PRs. limited does not equal less. Also you do have a point with at the very start of the game PR and VT have the same chance of randomly guessing mafia. But even on day one it could matter. If u were a cop and somebody claimed cop... for example.
Numbers = his bold statement (ie. 1 2 3 4)
1. Yes i was leaning 27nb but that was before a lot of posted and the people that did posted did not post much. So it was the very start of the game. I think I did not even vote for her. The person i voted for flipped scum today. Also i was saying how terrible it was to vote27nb after i had information from all players.
I support the kenpachi rule. It has merit(it has some value) I do not see where release thinks i support further discussion of it. He did not post the post but someone said they were sick of it but i said i still think it should be discussed but i understand how it could be repetitive. I think that release thinks i encouraged further discussion of it by saying how 27nb dismissed it(which she did, koshi is saying this is true but release is denying it i guess make your own decision) And i did say that only two people said what the kenpachi rule was. YKZ explained it in a lot of detail while 27nb did not have a good explanation of it. I wanted someone else to say what it was or if YKZ was talking nonsense. Nobody did so I am still assuming that is was the kenpachi rule is. Second time I am saying this but no one was saying the kenpachi rule was defined wrong they were saying it was being used wrong.
Release also posted to where i said the kenpachi rule was useless. That was my first post to a mafia game ever. I had very little knowledge of the game.(For example i knew the term lylo existed and it was a phase as the end of the game but I did not know it meant lynch or lose.) Then i gathered new info that no was refuting so i did see the merit in it. Notice how i comment on YKZ saying the kenpachi rule also works then said it almost always works. His knowledge of it did not change but he said different things. I said different things but my knowledge of it did change.
I do not understand where I represented information wrong. Also 27nb could say if YKZ was lynched it would be proven by the end of the day. Also release wants to throw in the scientific method bs. It is simply stated as the kenpachi rule has merit but is not 100% correct.
2. I still stand that i did not make an association with YKZ because of the information I posted after that. I guess you all can decide. I was saying another reason i would want to vote 27nb. That would of been a longshot.
3. I thought was release was scum and I made my own case on his. I did not follow Art's case on him. I thought release did have a good point until he did not even know that 27nb said vt twice before he vote post. I think sloosh but somebody said something like good job now somebody is actually reading the thread. I still believe releases whole post was just the same information we have and then a misleading or terrible new point in his case about vt. So either scum or terrible town. I also do not see how I flip flopped (Does this mean I went from one player to another?) I was slightly leaning 27nb, i never even voted for her. I was full blown for you day one. More than mderg. But i played like a team player and consolidated my post like somebody said that was normal so scum votes could not factor that much.
Now these numbers are going to be related to the third bold comments, second spoiler.
I never asked 27nb to die. I was saying how she could of said if she died she would show town and the kenpachi rule would be disproved or if YKZ was lynched and shown scum first day. Things like this is where i think release is either a terrible town or scum. He misreads the simplest of things.
1. Where i was proving to release that he missed that 27nb mentions vt twice before vote post.
2. and 3. Me and Release had a different definition so i think we were both right about that.
4. I agree that talking about blue roles is bad.(My information on the subject changed) I realized that it
is the same thing we do to find scum. I still never talked about who had which blue role. I was
talking about talking about blue roles. I still think this does not have a primary nature to help scum.
I guess you could say it could lead someone else to mention a role with a person.
|
On June 21 2014 06:31 Release wrote:Foreword: If you paid attention to my case any other time, read after "Why stop there:" Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 02:48 Snickers wrote:On June 20 2014 23:43 Koshi wrote:On June 20 2014 22:54 Lazermonkey wrote:
I'm busy today as well but will hopefully at least be able to post during the lynch. I don't really get the BH wagon yet though. Well, I do get it but I don't get how people would rather vote for BH than they would vote for VE or Koshi.
Untill his reason vote he didn't have a single scum read what so ever. And it IS very convinient that he votes that number 1 lynchbait... I am voting for the only person who has a case made against him. Two even. Do you disagree with the cases? I don't so I vote Mderg. What do you mean with you don't understand why people are voting BH? BH pushed bunnies like a mofo and then disappeared, only to come back do nothing and taunt everybody, so he got votes. I am only doing the do nothing part, so I got less votes than BH. Now that BH did something everybody should comment on that. Is the case legit or is it not? For me the case is very legit and well made so I am ok with BH. Somewhere I should look at the meta of BH in djinn game and in Ver game because he tunneled town D1 in both those games. I will do that later. Voting me is pretty boring btw. I pinkysweared I was town when I entered the game. That should be enough. On top of that I am voting for the best cases in the thread, I am not pushing my own agenda in the thread, and I do not hide any of my reasoning from the thread. I already told you people to look at the people who didn't vote Mderg D1. Scum never votes together. It simply doesn't happen ever. If I had to guess I would say Snickers is the scummer between the 4 but he is on Mderg ass since D1 so meh. Snickers hasn't been answering any of my questions and is just ignoring everything and pushing Release/Mderg.
But I am not pushing anything this game. People that lie frequently. 1.Koshi 2.Release People that play this game annoyingly (regardless of alignment most likely) 1.YKZ 2.Chezinu Mderg do you have a question. My filter will answer it for you. Also funny how i commented on Release's whole "case" on me and he still "thinks" i did not. Do not think it is a case since he summarizes stuff and does not quote. Also lets see who is the first to find out that YKZ's case on mderg is repeating what me and another person said. Then he completely takes the post i quoted and says the exact same thing. He even says he is sure somebody said this. You ask and I guess you will receive. (It is a case. A summary of mafia play means mafia play was there). At the beginning of the game, he casts suspsicion on 27nb following YKZ, supports the Kenpachi rule and encourages further discussion of it.+ Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote:
So far I am leaning towards 27nb as scum. Although i said the kenpachi rule is useless, now that i understand it better, it does have some merit. It seems like for a scum to claim VT first day would be a tactic that would be stupidly selfish, since it would most likely hurt the whole scum team. It seems like a tactic only a bad scum team would use. (But how would a scum team know it had a disadvantage. Maybe with poor roles? Maybe by meta? I do not think a scum team would plan to use the kenpachi rule to their favor.) 27nb has not really commented on the kenpachi rule and is just dismissing it.
Also i am not voting for her yet.
Only eight out of the twelve players have posted so far, so it seems too early.
My reads for other players so far.
Artanis, sloosh and Ve have not said much so no read.
goodkarma seems to be playing standard. Nothing really sticking out at me for now. Maybe I will reread his posts.
Chezinu has a high ratio of text to information. Seems weird but it only the first day. I do not think this information is sufficient enough to even mention the s word.
YKZ seems to be a very knowledgeable player.
It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one.
Please comment on my thoughts This is already well into the day and YKZ has detailed his application of the kenpachi rule. Despite initially disliking the use of the Kenpachi rule + Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 10:58 Snickers wrote:Hello everyone. I am not sure how to quote someone so if the above quote was wrong please tell me how. (I checked preview and it looked right) What does BH stand for? For awhile i thought VT stood for vigilante not vanilla town. Also this kenpachi rule is useless. he now claims that it has merit. Bandwagon play. 27nb dismisses the reasoning for the Kenpachi (which again is the mention of VT; I'm pretty certain incorrect). Misrep. of information by Snickers. + Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 12:32 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 12:14 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 12:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 12:03 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:59 slOosh wrote:
What is this "limited information" that you guys are getting at? On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? What's truly amazing here is what an awesome example this is for Kenpachi Rule Extended. Even after I call it you're still doing it. Assuming you do in fact flip scum I'll have to write a post game analysis just on the first few pages of this game. Maybe I could tie it in with a general Kenpachi and Kenpachi Rule Extended / Zephirdd Rule tutorial. I'm getting more excited by the minute! BH I thought you were some amazing mafia player? Obviously not because YOU ARE WRONG ON ME! And I'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game. See the statement is suspicious to me "i'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game." why the end of the game. It could easily be prove "wrong" the first night. "wrong" as in if your lynched and shown as town. Or if YKZ is lynched and showed scum. I am just trying to show where I think 27nb is thinking in a strange way. Maybe she just thinks that way normally. I do not think the kenpachi rule can be proven wrong. I think it can be proven to not be 100% right though. I think saying it is wrong is stating it has no merit at all. I already explained why i thought a scum could potentially claim VT day one to attempt for an advantage. Also sloosh thanks for posting. I think this kenpachi rule should still be discussed a little more, but I see where you think we should stop the seeming rigmarole. Focuses to narrowly on the phrasing of game vs day. The idea of bunny's wish to survive to the end of the game is very clear. And he adds a completely wrong scietific interpretation of the Kenpachi rule, and supports the Kenpachi rule discussion which has caused nothing but havoc in the thread. Then he makes some slightly unclear buddy up to YKZ posts.The last quoted post does exactly that. Bad reasoning to support YKZ's incorrect claims. Let's also go back to this + Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote:
It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one.
in which he supports YKZ's towniness by saying that he would prefer to have a knowledgable player. Later claims that this was an unlikely outcome, but if that were the case, there would be no point in making a post like this. Therefore, I conclude that Snickers is lying and that the intention of this post is to half-defend but moreso align himself with the "towny" YKZ (from his perspective). Then he supports me, the he flipflops on me following a not so good case on me by artansis.+ Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 13:49 Snickers wrote:
Good post release, I wanted to comment on some of your points.
1.I think it should be stated that 27nb mentioned VT in a post before her vote post.
2.Also this "limited information" we all have different levels of information. This is a semi open game so we know what roles are possible but not the quantity. I am assuming that we all could be goons and VT? but even if we were not, information is simply not on the level of scum or town. A PR has more information that a VT because he knows his respective role exists in the game. So i think generally information goes scum>PR>Vt.
Also this "limited information" does not seem like a slip. 27nb was just trying to get the game going and I think two of the people she mentioned did not post. Even now three people have not posted so I would say we all have limited information.
3.Your point on YKZ claiming he only slips as mafia while playing town. I think this is 10000x more worthy than the "limited information" post. Is YKZ's slip the "limited information" post? I still think this point is very important even though I do not think YKZ slipped with the kenpachi rule or the "limited information"
4. I do not think talk about blue would lead to mafia finding out the blue players. Although it seems bad to claim blue players day one right? If I was scum and said I was vigilante and there was actually someone vigilante, they would shoot me the first night. If I was VT and claimed vigilante, it would help lead scum to target a "less worthy player". But the risk seems to high for that tactic to be valuable. Also i used "less worthy player" because a smart VT would obviously be more worthy than an unintelligent vigilante that shot a PR.
5. Also that speculate post was really ambiguous and I think i may have caused that. I was not speculating that YKZ was a blue. I was trying to show a possibility that was being overlooked by a player. Then 27nb said "I wouldnt speculate" well is she telling me not to speculate or saying she would not personally speculate.
Appears to want a discussion with me. + Show Spoiler +On June 17 2014 00:13 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 17:12 Release wrote:On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote:
So far I am leaning towards 27nb as scum. Although i said the kenpachi rule is useless, now that i understand it better, it does have some merit. It seems like for a scum to claim VT first day would be a tactic that would be stupidly selfish, since it would most likely hurt the whole scum team. It seems like a tactic only a bad scum team would use. (But how would a scum team know it had a disadvantage. Maybe with poor roles? Maybe by meta? I do not think a scum team would plan to use the kenpachi rule to their favor.) 27nb has not really commented on the kenpachi rule and is just dismissing it.
Also i am not voting for her yet.
Only eight out of the twelve players have posted so far, so it seems too early.
My reads for other players so far.
Artanis, sloosh and Ve have not said much so no read.
goodkarma seems to be playing standard. Nothing really sticking out at me for now. Maybe I will reread his posts.
Chezinu has a high ratio of text to information. Seems weird but it only the first day. I do not think this information is sufficient enough to even mention the s word.
YKZ seems to be a very knowledgeable player.
It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one.
Please comment on my thoughts First bold is incorrect. YKZ has been acted stubbornly incorrectly and has misrepresented information in a manner that implies that he is correct and 27nb is wrong (whereas the opposite is true). So you essentially have no reads? I doubt anyone has any solid reads except for/against 27nb and YKZ. Weird to include an entire paragraph about null. The above implies bad/useless town but the next paragraph changes my read completely (as it did for 27nb). Second bold: You would prefer that YKZ be town and therefore believe that 27nb is scum? The roles have already been determined. That is a complete lack of reasoning for wanting a lynch but still being swayed? That reeks of scum trying to jump on the bandwagon. On June 16 2014 12:32 Snickers wrote:On June 16 2014 12:14 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 12:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 12:03 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:59 slOosh wrote:
What is this "limited information" that you guys are getting at? On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? What's truly amazing here is what an awesome example this is for Kenpachi Rule Extended. Even after I call it you're still doing it. Assuming you do in fact flip scum I'll have to write a post game analysis just on the first few pages of this game. Maybe I could tie it in with a general Kenpachi and Kenpachi Rule Extended / Zephirdd Rule tutorial. I'm getting more excited by the minute! BH I thought you were some amazing mafia player? Obviously not because YOU ARE WRONG ON ME! And I'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game. See the statement is suspicious to me "i'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game." why the end of the game. It could easily be prove "wrong" the first night. "wrong" as in if your lynched and shown as town. Or if YKZ is lynched and showed scum.I am just trying to show where I think 27nb is thinking in a strange way. Maybe she just thinks that way normally. I do not think the kenpachi rule can be proven wrong. I think it can be proven to not be 100% right though. I think saying it is wrong is stating it has no merit at all. I already explained why i thought a scum could potentially claim VT day one to attempt for an advantage. Also sloosh thanks for posting. I think this kenpachi rule should still be discussed a little more, but I see where you think we should stop the seeming rigmarole. That is a strange statement because asking for town to die to prove something is ridiculous, and is against our goal to kill mafia. However, the second part is correct. Why would you include the first part in this statement? Reeks of mafia. Also quick note on Scientific Method: Nothing can be proven correct, but 1 counterexample demonstrates a need to change the hypothesis. And from 27nb's perspective, I take a neutral stance on what she said. By the end of the game sounds like she was saying that she would be revealed as town when the game conclude, assuming that she would survive the entire game. As opposed to end of the day by getting a lynch of YKZ, but, at that point, not many people had taken a stance on the situation. It's passive but focussed on moving the game forward (as opposed to YKZ's comments which were designed to draw attention to himself and his survival). -----------------------Line for separation-------------------------- On June 16 2014 13:49 Snickers wrote:
Good post release, I wanted to comment on some of your points.
1.I think it should be stated that 27nb mentioned VT in a post before her vote post.
2.Also this "limited information" we all have different levels of information. This is a semi open game so we know what roles are possible but not the quantity. I am assuming that we all could be goons and VT? but even if we were not, information is simply not on the level of scum or town. A PR has more information that a VT because he knows his respective role exists in the game. So i think generally information goes scum>PR>Vt.
Also this "limited information" does not seem like a slip. 27nb was just trying to get the game going and I think two of the people she mentioned did not post. Even now three people have not posted so I would say we all have limited information. On day 1, information :: Mafia > Town.
3.Your point on YKZ claiming he only slips as mafia while playing town. I think this is 10000x more worthy than the "limited information" post. Is YKZ's slip the "limited information" post? I still think this point is very important even though I do not think YKZ slipped with the kenpachi rule or the "limited information"
4. I do not think talk about blue would lead to mafia finding out the blue players. Although it seems bad to claim blue players day one right? If I was scum and said I was vigilante and there was actually someone vigilante, they would shoot me the first night. If I was VT and claimed vigilante, it would help lead scum to target a "less worthy player". But the risk seems to high for that tactic to be valuable. Also i used "less worthy player" because a smart VT would obviously be more worthy than an unintelligent vigilante that shot a PR.
5. Also that speculate post was really ambiguous and I think i may have caused that. I was not speculating that YKZ was a blue. I was trying to show a possibility that was being overlooked by a player. Then 27nb said "I wouldnt speculate" well is she telling me not to speculate or saying she would not personally speculate.
@1: That was a question, separate from her vote. @2: I'm pretty sure we don't use roles on "night 0." (check the Godfather role on the OP) @3: Not too sure what you're asking but I can clarify: "Limited information" indicates scum because on Day 1, no one has any information except for the mafia, so assuming that YKZ is town, he should have less than or equal information to everyone else. Clearly, "limited information" implies that he has more and therefore cannot be town. next point: The Kenpachi rule does not apply but he insisted repeatedly and incorrectly that it did apply, causing chaos in town and trying to lead a mislynch. @4: That sounds really scummy. On day 1, blues have no information more than town so we need to keep them alive. Talking about blues can only increase that chance that mafia corrects identifies blue so talking about blue on day 1 favors mafia. @5: "You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip." this is incorrect. 27nb who thinks YKZ is scum does not speculate whether YKZ is blue because 27nb believes that YKZ is red. YKZ presents information as though 27nb is speculating which is the complete opposite of what is actually happening. Read the second part closely. Speculation only occurs if town is the hypothesis, which is not the case, so again, YKZ makes an incorrect statement and misleads us. 27nb's statement is not a scum slip by any stretch of the imagination. See below: On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
Snickers, you need to work a bit on your quoting, but not bad.
Just hit quote in the upper right corner of the post. It works better!
Also, pr means power role, so yes means same as blue.
I think coming out like that puts yourself in the spotlight.
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. On June 16 2014 11:22 27ninjabunnies wrote:
OMG Bh<3
WTG buddy!
hahaha. im laughing my ass off right now.
So what I'm saying here is that I think you are scum, and I'm not removing my vote from you..
But in the offchance you are town- which I don't believe one bit- town shouldnt speculate this early in the game whether or not a person is blue or just vt. That gives tooooo much information for mafia. That's what I was saying in sayng we shouldnt speculate whether or not you are blue.
That was definitely not a slip, so stop trying to grasp at straws because I caught you d1. Overall, this sounds like a soft defense of YKZ, and such a defense is untenable.\ + Show Spoiler +and with that I am off to bed So i do not think you guys should pick a statement and bold it when right after that statement i said why it would be terrible to do that. I was not asking for 27nb to die, I was saying it was strange for her to act super confident and not mention how she could prove him wrong less than 48 hours than now. 1.In my above post i showed where it was linked to her vote post. Also Her first post about VT was a question. The second one was not. It was then linked to the Vote Post. 2.and 3. Last time I am explaining this unless someone one new to the thread does not understand this. "no one has any information except for the mafia," Since this is a semi open game the knowledge of a PR and a VT is different. Pr knows that his respective role exists. Also we all have information through the posts. 4.So this actually makes sense why talking about blue would be bad day one. (Same logic applies for why we try to get scrum to speak on day one). But i do not think what i said was scummy. I think you said I was scummy then put a true statement after it to try and fool somebody. 5. I still do not understand this speculation idea. I do not think you understand me and are twisting my words a lot to hurt me. You also seem to be twisting 27nb's words a lot to protect her. You seemed to have missed the part where she mentions VT without the question mark. Claims I do not understand and that I twist his words, when I'm pretty sure I understood what he meant. He just doesn't want others to read his statements as mafia so he misrepresents his own ideas to make them appear town, when they are not. Misleading the town --> mafia agenda. + Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release Artanis case OP. I disagreed with it and so did slo0sh. + Show Spoiler +On June 17 2014 02:17 Snickers wrote:
Ok I'm on a mobile phone ATM and will not have a proper keyboard 9 hours from now.
First off. 27nb i will try to be more clear in nine hours with examples. My overall feelings on you is this. You were being super confident but did not use all the smack talk available to you. Again I will try to be more clear later.
Somebody wanted to know my thoughts on release.
For awhile I started to think that neither he , 27nb or ykz was scum. I think 27nb is most likely town now.
I think release is actually scum. He has aligned himself with bunnies and defended her but I think she was not in need of defense . I do not see a reason to defend someone not in trouble unless u know they are town. I think release saw a good time to cause confusion while also looking extremly town. It is good to align with a town as scum as a future defense, right?
Some people think I am siding with YKZ. I do not think it is smart to be siding with someone so early unless u know his or her role. I would argue I was going after 27 nab rather than defending YKZ. Also i said he seems knowledgable.
I think he def still is because of his knowledge on the lenpachi rule. You guys have been saying his use of it was wrong but not his definition of it. Also he is bh which u guys know him so he has played a lot. It seems weird for a player that has played a lot to slip so early. ( I know it sounds life I'm defending him now) I think he is knowledgable regardless of his role.
His posts do seem weird tho. He adds on little joking phrases to the end of some posts. Also why create a smurf then show ur actual self. I think he was reacting strongly to something. Flip. Claims defending a suspected towny is scummy. What I had been doing was more attacking YKZ and defending 27nb as a corollary. I said even said that 27nb is not necessarily towny because I thought town 27nb would have made my points already. It should be noted that this post is made after Artanis OP case on me. (sequence: he says I have good post, artanis case, misleading response from snickers, snickers firm flip) He harps quite a bit on the "information" and blue talk even after I try multiple times to dissuade him from doing so.Read the thread. You should be able to find it. + Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 13:49 Snickers wrote:
Good post release, I wanted to comment on some of your points.
1.I think it should be stated that 27nb mentioned VT in a post before her vote post.
2.Also this "limited information" we all have different levels of information. This is a semi open game so we know what roles are possible but not the quantity. I am assuming that we all could be goons and VT? but even if we were not, information is simply not on the level of scum or town. A PR has more information that a VT because he knows his respective role exists in the game. So i think generally information goes scum>PR>Vt.
Also this "limited information" does not seem like a slip. 27nb was just trying to get the game going and I think two of the people she mentioned did not post. Even now three people have not posted so I would say we all have limited information.
3.Your point on YKZ claiming he only slips as mafia while playing town. I think this is 10000x more worthy than the "limited information" post. Is YKZ's slip the "limited information" post? I still think this point is very important even though I do not think YKZ slipped with the kenpachi rule or the "limited information"
4. I do not think talk about blue would lead to mafia finding out the blue players. Although it seems bad to claim blue players day one right? If I was scum and said I was vigilante and there was actually someone vigilante, they would shoot me the first night. If I was VT and claimed vigilante, it would help lead scum to target a "less worthy player". But the risk seems to high for that tactic to be valuable. Also i used "less worthy player" because a smart VT would obviously be more worthy than an unintelligent vigilante that shot a PR.
5. Also that speculate post was really ambiguous and I think i may have caused that. I was not speculating that YKZ was a blue. I was trying to show a possibility that was being overlooked by a player. Then 27nb said "I wouldnt speculate" well is she telling me not to speculate or saying she would not personally speculate.
On June 17 2014 00:13 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 17:12 Release wrote:On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote:
So far I am leaning towards 27nb as scum. Although i said the kenpachi rule is useless, now that i understand it better, it does have some merit. It seems like for a scum to claim VT first day would be a tactic that would be stupidly selfish, since it would most likely hurt the whole scum team. It seems like a tactic only a bad scum team would use. (But how would a scum team know it had a disadvantage. Maybe with poor roles? Maybe by meta? I do not think a scum team would plan to use the kenpachi rule to their favor.) 27nb has not really commented on the kenpachi rule and is just dismissing it.
Also i am not voting for her yet.
Only eight out of the twelve players have posted so far, so it seems too early.
My reads for other players so far.
Artanis, sloosh and Ve have not said much so no read.
goodkarma seems to be playing standard. Nothing really sticking out at me for now. Maybe I will reread his posts.
Chezinu has a high ratio of text to information. Seems weird but it only the first day. I do not think this information is sufficient enough to even mention the s word.
YKZ seems to be a very knowledgeable player.
It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one.
Please comment on my thoughts First bold is incorrect. YKZ has been acted stubbornly incorrectly and has misrepresented information in a manner that implies that he is correct and 27nb is wrong (whereas the opposite is true). So you essentially have no reads? I doubt anyone has any solid reads except for/against 27nb and YKZ. Weird to include an entire paragraph about null. The above implies bad/useless town but the next paragraph changes my read completely (as it did for 27nb). Second bold: You would prefer that YKZ be town and therefore believe that 27nb is scum? The roles have already been determined. That is a complete lack of reasoning for wanting a lynch but still being swayed? That reeks of scum trying to jump on the bandwagon. On June 16 2014 12:32 Snickers wrote:On June 16 2014 12:14 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 12:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 12:03 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:59 slOosh wrote:
What is this "limited information" that you guys are getting at? On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? What's truly amazing here is what an awesome example this is for Kenpachi Rule Extended. Even after I call it you're still doing it. Assuming you do in fact flip scum I'll have to write a post game analysis just on the first few pages of this game. Maybe I could tie it in with a general Kenpachi and Kenpachi Rule Extended / Zephirdd Rule tutorial. I'm getting more excited by the minute! BH I thought you were some amazing mafia player? Obviously not because YOU ARE WRONG ON ME! And I'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game. See the statement is suspicious to me "i'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game." why the end of the game. It could easily be prove "wrong" the first night. "wrong" as in if your lynched and shown as town. Or if YKZ is lynched and showed scum.I am just trying to show where I think 27nb is thinking in a strange way. Maybe she just thinks that way normally. I do not think the kenpachi rule can be proven wrong. I think it can be proven to not be 100% right though. I think saying it is wrong is stating it has no merit at all. I already explained why i thought a scum could potentially claim VT day one to attempt for an advantage. Also sloosh thanks for posting. I think this kenpachi rule should still be discussed a little more, but I see where you think we should stop the seeming rigmarole. That is a strange statement because asking for town to die to prove something is ridiculous, and is against our goal to kill mafia. However, the second part is correct. Why would you include the first part in this statement? Reeks of mafia. Also quick note on Scientific Method: Nothing can be proven correct, but 1 counterexample demonstrates a need to change the hypothesis. And from 27nb's perspective, I take a neutral stance on what she said. By the end of the game sounds like she was saying that she would be revealed as town when the game conclude, assuming that she would survive the entire game. As opposed to end of the day by getting a lynch of YKZ, but, at that point, not many people had taken a stance on the situation. It's passive but focussed on moving the game forward (as opposed to YKZ's comments which were designed to draw attention to himself and his survival). -----------------------Line for separation-------------------------- On June 16 2014 13:49 Snickers wrote:
Good post release, I wanted to comment on some of your points.
1.I think it should be stated that 27nb mentioned VT in a post before her vote post.
2.Also this "limited information" we all have different levels of information. This is a semi open game so we know what roles are possible but not the quantity. I am assuming that we all could be goons and VT? but even if we were not, information is simply not on the level of scum or town. A PR has more information that a VT because he knows his respective role exists in the game. So i think generally information goes scum>PR>Vt.
Also this "limited information" does not seem like a slip. 27nb was just trying to get the game going and I think two of the people she mentioned did not post. Even now three people have not posted so I would say we all have limited information. On day 1, information :: Mafia > Town.
3.Your point on YKZ claiming he only slips as mafia while playing town. I think this is 10000x more worthy than the "limited information" post. Is YKZ's slip the "limited information" post? I still think this point is very important even though I do not think YKZ slipped with the kenpachi rule or the "limited information"
4. I do not think talk about blue would lead to mafia finding out the blue players. Although it seems bad to claim blue players day one right? If I was scum and said I was vigilante and there was actually someone vigilante, they would shoot me the first night. If I was VT and claimed vigilante, it would help lead scum to target a "less worthy player". But the risk seems to high for that tactic to be valuable. Also i used "less worthy player" because a smart VT would obviously be more worthy than an unintelligent vigilante that shot a PR.
5. Also that speculate post was really ambiguous and I think i may have caused that. I was not speculating that YKZ was a blue. I was trying to show a possibility that was being overlooked by a player. Then 27nb said "I wouldnt speculate" well is she telling me not to speculate or saying she would not personally speculate.
@1: That was a question, separate from her vote. @2: I'm pretty sure we don't use roles on "night 0." (check the Godfather role on the OP) @3: Not too sure what you're asking but I can clarify: "Limited information" indicates scum because on Day 1, no one has any information except for the mafia, so assuming that YKZ is town, he should have less than or equal information to everyone else. Clearly, "limited information" implies that he has more and therefore cannot be town. next point: The Kenpachi rule does not apply but he insisted repeatedly and incorrectly that it did apply, causing chaos in town and trying to lead a mislynch. @4: That sounds really scummy. On day 1, blues have no information more than town so we need to keep them alive. Talking about blues can only increase that chance that mafia corrects identifies blue so talking about blue on day 1 favors mafia. @5: "You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip." this is incorrect. 27nb who thinks YKZ is scum does not speculate whether YKZ is blue because 27nb believes that YKZ is red. YKZ presents information as though 27nb is speculating which is the complete opposite of what is actually happening. Read the second part closely. Speculation only occurs if town is the hypothesis, which is not the case, so again, YKZ makes an incorrect statement and misleads us. 27nb's statement is not a scum slip by any stretch of the imagination. See below: On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
Snickers, you need to work a bit on your quoting, but not bad.
Just hit quote in the upper right corner of the post. It works better!
Also, pr means power role, so yes means same as blue.
I think coming out like that puts yourself in the spotlight.
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. On June 16 2014 11:22 27ninjabunnies wrote:
OMG Bh<3
WTG buddy!
hahaha. im laughing my ass off right now.
So what I'm saying here is that I think you are scum, and I'm not removing my vote from you..
But in the offchance you are town- which I don't believe one bit- town shouldnt speculate this early in the game whether or not a person is blue or just vt. That gives tooooo much information for mafia. That's what I was saying in sayng we shouldnt speculate whether or not you are blue.
That was definitely not a slip, so stop trying to grasp at straws because I caught you d1. Overall, this sounds like a soft defense of YKZ, and such a defense is untenable.\ + Show Spoiler +and with that I am off to bed So i do not think you guys should pick a statement and bold it when right after that statement i said why it would be terrible to do that. I was not asking for 27nb to die, I was saying it was strange for her to act super confident and not mention how she could prove him wrong less than 48 hours than now. 1.In my above post i showed where it was linked to her vote post. Also Her first post about VT was a question. The second one was not. It was then linked to the Vote Post. 2.and 3. Last time I am explaining this unless someone one new to the thread does not understand this. "no one has any information except for the mafia," Since this is a semi open game the knowledge of a PR and a VT is different. Pr knows that his respective role exists. Also we all have information through the posts. 4.So this actually makes sense why talking about blue would be bad day one. (Same logic applies for why we try to get scrum to speak on day one). But i do not think what i said was scummy. I think you said I was scummy then put a true statement after it to try and fool somebody. 5. I still do not understand this speculation idea. I do not think you understand me and are twisting my words a lot to hurt me. You also seem to be twisting 27nb's words a lot to protect her. You seemed to have missed the part where she mentions VT without the question mark. On June 17 2014 11:50 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 08:25 Release wrote:On June 17 2014 03:00 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 17 2014 02:39 Release wrote:
@Lazer (and everyone else): His actions alone are bad. The repetitiveness of the badness and refusal to change his play after being corrected manifest his mafia agenda. "blazinghand is stubborn, therefore he is mafia" and "blazinghand has scumslipped, therefore he is mafia" are both sentences that are like always super doops wrong. I certainly can be stubborn as mafia, but I'm always stubborn. And the scumslip thing, come on guys. I legit don't scumslip as scum, and scumslip all the time as town, ask like anyone who has played more than 2 games with me. Also, I'm just generally a stubborn bastard no matter what I roll; again, ask anyone who has played with me. I will say this though: although I don't particularly like that Release is all over me like a dog on a butt-flavored biscuit, I gotta give him credit: he IS all over me. He went through my filter and tried to find anything he could possibly construe as scummy and slapped it down in a big honkin filter dive case. Now, it's a big honkin WRONG filter drive case, but it's still a lot of effort. Maybe he was explicitly dodging Kenpachi Rule Extended, but he still gets mondo credit for putting in effort imo. Is release scummy for jumping in and just repeating what other people said? Eh, maybe. It's certainly a easy move for scum to make, but it's also worth noting that it's a move town would make. Suppose Release comes in and sees this horrible back and forth between me and 27nb, and for some weird reason becomes convinced I'm scum as a result. He wants to drop a vote on me, but also there's like no-one voting me, so he drops a hella big case. He does work, he does research. I give him credit for this, at least. Yes, it would have been good if he had an original idea, but if he didn't, he didn't. There's only so much to be said about me. Maybe you think he's scum because you think I'm scum and this is the most poorly executed bus ever, but really, 1) it would be a terrible way to do it, and 2) as SloOsh said (and he gets mucho townie points for this) you don't draw associative tells between unflipped players. Back onto the 27nb thing, Check it out. If you look at 27nb's filter, you see the initial push on me, and you see some interactions on me in places where I directly call out 27nb, but that's it as far as interactions with me. Check out some of the posts I made after the post that set off 27nb's "flag" so to speak about me being scummy: On June 16 2014 11:05 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 10:58 Snickers wrote:Also, your posts are giving me BH vibes.
Hello everyone. I am not sure how to quote someone so if the above quote was wrong please tell me how. (I checked preview and it looked right) What does BH stand for? For awhile i thought VT stood for vigilante not vanilla town. Also this kenpachi rule is useless. BH stands for "Blazinghand": he is a mafia-guy who is mean to newbies and throws around his "vet" status in games and thinks he is way better then everyone else. ne1 who thinks I am BH also thinks I am town tho cuz BH's favorite thing is to fake claim blue roles every game when he is scum. He would never claim vt as scum bcuz he wants to fake claim blue rofl In this post i'm explicitly stating I'm not BH and trying to fake not being me. Even worse, I'm setting up the "bh claiming vt must be town" meme and I later "accidentally" reveal myself to be BH. If I were someone who thought YKZ was scum and saw this, I'd be all over it. I'd point out that it's awfully CONVENIENT to say that and then "accidentally" reveal yourself to be bh. I'd write a case, or at least a post, or heck, at least a SENTENCE, about this. Since I'm already suspicious of YKZ, since I supposedly have a scumread on YKZ, responding to this would be a NATURAL thing to do if I was town and voting YKZ. And yet, no response from 27nb (who was in thread at the time) next.. On June 16 2014 11:34 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 11:27 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 11:13 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip. This reminds me of something you once said in Les Mafia: On May 22 2013 15:51 Blazinghand wrote:
DP, you're not bad, you're just wrong about scumslips. When I flip town, promise me this: for the next full game played, any time you mention scumslips you will say "I was wrong, BH was right, there is no such thing as a scumslip" Did something change? Yeah in the YKZ quote nobody thought I was blazinghand, so I thought I could get away with the fallacious "scumslip" argument, since you guys clearly aren't willing to accept the reasonable Kenpachi Rule argument. The fact of the matter is, 27nb IS scum because of Kenpachi Rule. I'm allowed to lie, cheat, steal, etc (well not cheat but you get the idea) to get you sheep to follow me and lynch him. The ends justify the means. also, 27nb's retconned case on me that's about me saying s/he doesn't have good info is based on, you guessed it, another scumslip. Let me get it through everyone's heads: I, Blazinghand, am by far the best scum player on TL Mafia. I may not be an amazing town player, I admit, but I am a GOD of scum, I only ever scumslip as town. You can look at my past games; every time someone calls me out for a scumslip, I'm town. You know why? As town, I don't have to bother worrying about scumslips cause I know I am innocent. As scum, I play a much cleaner game in terms of slips because I have to. So, 27nb's slip-based case on me actually proves how townie I am, and his/her hilarious backtracking on calling me potentially blue only shows how scummy 27nb is. Look at what I'm saying here. I'm literally admitting to lying to and deceiving the thread. I then say it's okay to lie and that the ends justify the means. Jesus christ on a stick with a cherry on top, how do you not flip out over this if you're town and think I'm scum? You'd be like "look, BH is obviously willing to lie. He was trying to pretend to be someone else while smurfing, which is a CLASSIC BH move when smurfing as scum. He even admits it, right here, in an attempt to defuse the situation. You can't let this slide guys, this is proof BH is scum" anyone who thinks I'm suspicious and has a vote on me, after reading that I admit to lying and trying to decieve the thread, would be ALL OVER this post. You want to know how 27nb responds, though? Here, I'll show you. On June 16 2014 11:39 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:34 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 11:27 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 11:13 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip. This reminds me of something you once said in Les Mafia: On May 22 2013 15:51 Blazinghand wrote:
DP, you're not bad, you're just wrong about scumslips. When I flip town, promise me this: for the next full game played, any time you mention scumslips you will say "I was wrong, BH was right, there is no such thing as a scumslip" Did something change? Yeah in the YKZ quote nobody thought I was blazinghand, so I thought I could get away with the fallacious "scumslip" argument, since you guys clearly aren't willing to accept the reasonable Kenpachi Rule argument. The fact of the matter is, 27nb IS scum because of Kenpachi Rule. I'm allowed to lie, cheat, steal, etc (well not cheat but you get the idea) to get you sheep to follow me and lynch him. The ends justify the means. also, 27nb's retconned case on me that's about me saying s/he doesn't have good info is based on, you guessed it, another scumslip. Let me get it through everyone's heads: I, Blazinghand, am by far the best scum player on TL Mafia. I may not be an amazing town player, I admit, but I am a GOD of scum, I only ever scumslip as town. You can look at my past games; every time someone calls me out for a scumslip, I'm town. You know why? As town, I don't have to bother worrying about scumslips cause I know I am innocent. As scum, I play a much cleaner game in terms of slips because I have to. So, 27nb's slip-based case on me actually proves how townie I am, and his/her hilarious backtracking on calling me potentially blue only shows how scummy 27nb is. You are soooooo wrong on me. It's super bad. And tbh, idc what you think of yourself, but you haven't impressed me ass the "best" in TL Mafia. I caught your mafia self d1. Get rekt! And as I said, Kenpachi rule is useless and stupid, and it will be highly disproved this game. I have no need to backtrack, and I had not backtracked anywhere. I'm going forward with this lynch and into the abyss you go! All 27nb sees is the part of the post directed at her. She argues about like backtracking or whatever, and says she's going forward with this lynch while literally ignoring possibly the most damning statement a player could make. If she was really town and really thought I was scum, at this point she'd say, not "blah blah kenpachi rule backtracking, your'e so bad and i'm so good", she'd say, "ah hah! Caught you in a lie, blazinghand, this is exactly what scum do!" You can see she's clearly not in a mindset of hunting scum, or hell, even actually PUSHING The wagon. She is putting on a big SHOW of pushing the wagon, but she's not actually doing it. She's not pointing out what I'm posting, or why I'm scum, just shouting about like one sentence in one post. She's not hunting scum. She's making noise. This is because she lacks the town mindset, the mindset that someone who really thought I was scum would have. Because 27nb is scum. vote her, for justice. @ first 4 paragraphs: The first sentence is again deliberate misrepresentation of the information that I have presented. Blazinghand is stubbornly wrong even when corrected and refuses to acknowledge corrections and is therefore mafia is the complete picture. This is the same misrepresentation of information he used earlier to cause chaos and it is used to cause chaos now. And the scumslip (which to my mind is the "more information") is NOT the reason that I think you are mafia. Please stop trying to twist information to suit your agenda. I do not merely repeat what has been said. I created a case on you with greater breadth and depth than 27nb did. And maybe you should pay more attention to what SloOsh is saying because he has asked useful questions when (mostly) you and 27nb have caused havoc in the thread. Now disregarding that, my case demonstrates that your logic in your play is incorrect. A proper defense is not to say "If I were scum, I would have..." because that is meaningless. Instead, you need to demonstrates that your logic is not incorrect. Otherwise, I think we should still construe YKZ's earlier posts as deliberate chaos. On June 17 2014 03:11 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 17 2014 01:42 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release Boring, why so? And I know I'm town, so you think Release is more likely scum defending a town here? Or do you think it's scum defending a partner this early into the game? I'm thinking we're both town here. Though, i agree, he is basically just sayng everything I've already said. Boring because you both just kept repeating the same things but in different words and it wasn't going anywhere for me to get a read on either of you. I don't know your alignment and I'm not going to make an association between unflipped players. People did that in cell. You supported that as mafia. Why are you trying to create associations now? On June 17 2014 01:45 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 22:45 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? I agree Release is looking scummy, but I wouldn't use that exact wording. He seems heavily invested in his case, but is only leaning towards ninja's side of this debate. These two statements especially didn't sit right with me from Release's post on 21:10 15 June 2014: "As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies." And yet he ends this same post: "I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ." Release doesn't seem that interested in what may develop from YKZ. He already has the verdict in mind... This is a HUGE inconsistency from how he starts his post. You have a point here I really like. Which makes me wonder if scum defending a town here. He's not even considering in what YKZ could or could not do. But then if that's the case, and Release is scum, then YKZ is town, and I don't like that. I really really want to be right that YKZ is scum. This gives me a slight scumread on you. Wanting to be right is an easy reason to lean back on without actually saying anything. On June 17 2014 02:38 Release wrote:
Currently this is our only point of discussion, although your vote on me now introduces a discussion about me.
wordy words Boring. You could've introduced a discussion about anyone that had an opinion on the case for bullshit reasons. You also keep repeating yourself in the post as well. If you want me to actually read your posts thoroughly, be more to the point. I'm not interested in your description of what you provided and what you want. It won't help me get a more accurate read on you. On June 17 2014 02:38 slOosh wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I'm sorry, how is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He hasn't rehashed anything, it's original content and wordiness is alignment null. Release made a giant post about stuff that was really boring so I didn't get very far in it. The first part is definitely rehash. You're right in that he did add some original content afterwards though. Wordiness being alignment null is debatable but that debate wouldn't go anywhere so let's agree to disagree on that. I "repeat" myself because YKZ makes similar chaotic plays with the same agenda. I rehashed some of the dispute because I wanted to provide a complete argument as to why YKZ is mafia and I want to be specific about my references. On June 17 2014 03:19 Lazermonkey wrote:@Release: I'm sorry, I missread your post a little bit. Your argument is actually quite different from Bunnies. I do, however, still fail to understand how YKZ actions make him scum. Your argument seems like WIFOM to me. It's like you assume that YKZ is already scum and then try to justify his actions from that point of you. Have you even considered YKZ's actions from a town PoV? Assuming that he is trying to create chaos by missinterpreting Bunnies is a big leap of faith. I also do think that there is merit to the Kenpachi rule in this case. Even if Bunnies said nummerous times that the VT claim wasn't the reason she voted for YKZ, she still pointed out two times: On June 16 2014 09:42 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? Awwwww, how rude. Don't you know you are supposed to talk to a person when they are talking to you? Also-she. And Why right off the bat claim vt? On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 09:45 slOosh wrote:
Bunnies (ninja? 27?), who is smurf and why should we lynch him? YKZ is smurf. And at first, I just put him on the list to get conversation going. I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. Looking at these two posts, you get the impression that Bunnies is indeed suspicious of YKZ because of the claim. Bunnies later on refutes this by saying that her suspicion of YKZ had nothing to do with the VT claim, HOWEVER: On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 09:50 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? This post has no substance. And why would you talk down to bunny about him having limited information? Do you have less limited information? Also, another point to why I don't like YKZ is the bolded. He says I have limited information. How would he know that I am town? Well, if he was mafia he would know that I am town. So ##Vote: YKZ Note the bolded part. It doesn't say "look, this is a really scummy thing YKZ said", it says "look, this is another point I don't like". If she didn't care about him claiming VT, why say that it was another part she didn't like? If there is something that I find null in someones filter I don't say "Hey, this is wierd". I just don't say a thing about it. And the thing is that Bunnies doesn't say anything about this untill YKZ votes her with because of the Kenpachi rule. It is therefore impossible for us to know whether she is talking the truth or not about not caring about the VT thing. Her actions in the thread does, however, indicate that this was something she cared about. Which makes me belive that all this was just a massive backpaddle by Bunnies after she got caught doing scummy stuff. ##Vote: 27ninjabunnies Here is a very concise argument train of thought for you: YKZ claims vt 27 questions claim and in a SEPARATE post votes for "limited information" YKZ repeatedly claims that the vote is for the "vt" claim (incorrect/bad play, currently not particularly indicative of alignment) 27 states the vote is not for the claim, but for the "limited information" (lots of back and forth) but ultimately, YKZ insists that 27 is scum because of vote due to her vote due to vt claim (incorrect again while being corrected). here we consider: if YKZ were town, he would recognize his mistake and reevaluate the situation, and conclude that he was incorrect and therefore 27 is not mafia, and YKZ should unvote. However, YKZ doesn't and, therefore, YKZ has made a conscious choice to ignore corrections to his play, which is indicative of mafia. --------------------------------------- But you should consider the magnitude of the reasoning. You are correct in sayi ng that "another" implies the vt is relevant. However, the next two sentences and the vote form an independently logical sequence of events (and the vt claim alone did not procure a vote). This implies that "limited information" is the main reason for the vote. Care about it? somewhat. Enough to merit use of Kenpachi rule? doubt it. On June 17 2014 03:22 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 17 2014 03:13 slOosh wrote:Hmm, not quite feeling the flaming spears of logic and justice yet. On June 16 2014 12:46 slOosh wrote:
I can see a somewhat reasonable case to be made that bunnies is not a stellar townie, but I don't see the case being made that she must be scum. Why isn't she "bad" town? I think my most recent post demonstrates that 27nb's attention is drawn towards statements about her, rather than incriminating things I say-- even a bad townie would naturally respond to me saying things like "I lied to decieve town because I thought I could get away with it", whereas scum regardless of badness would naturally respond to me saying kenpachi rule but NOT respond to additional evidence. It's not a matter of skill, it's a matter of mindset. A townie, even a new townie (I remember being one), when thyey have a scumread on someone and that person does something really scummy, they RESPOND to it. they add it to their case. It's the natural thought process of a town player REGARDLESS of skill. 27nb is not showing this natural thought process. Look at her responses to my posts. Is she responding to things I say that are scummy or inconsistent and pointing out their inconsistency? Or is she just shouting about my first post whenever she gets the chance, and not actually trying to convince people to lynch me based on new evidence that emerges? A townie who was really tunnelled on me would LOVE to point out new scummy things I say, because he's still trying to formulate and develop a case. 27nb is always talking about me, sure, but look at WHAT she's responding to. Not the stuff a townie would. This is always your argument. 'Not one specific town agenda and therefore mafia." There are multiple ways to play town (since you clearly claim to enjoy pretending to scumslip and most others do not). On June 17 2014 03:48 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 17 2014 03:40 Lazermonkey wrote:On June 17 2014 03:33 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 17 2014 03:28 Lazermonkey wrote:On June 17 2014 03:21 slOosh wrote:
Lazermonkey, what is the "scummy stuff" that bunnies is backpedaling from? The quick version: 1. Bunnies says that YKZ's VT claim is wierd and that she doesn't like it. 2. Bunnies says that ANOTHER thing the she doesn't like about YKZ is his "scum slip". Bunnes votes for YKZ. 3. YKZ votes Bunnies because Kenpachi rule. 4. Bunnies claims that the VT claim wasn't a reason she voted YKZ. 4. It wasn't the MAIN reason I voted YKZ. Okay, I'm not really interested in discussing this further with you. My goal isn't to make you confess in the thread. Its to convince the others. It is basically that it is impossible for us to know that what you are claiming is true or not. Based on what you wrote earlier I do find it more likely that you are scum than that you are town though. Understandable: also ##UnvoteI know this is not going to get votes off of me, and I'm fine with that. But YKZ's last few posts have been a bit towny, especially his read on Artansis. I'm starting to worry we are two town fighting. I also don't want my judgement clouded by my vote on YKZ and would like to hear more from other people. His posting has mostly been to say that town (a very specific town) would have done X but did Y and therefore mafia. Do you guys agree with this kind of arguement? Because I certainly do not. I urge you to reconsider you unvote on YKZ. On June 17 2014 07:05 goodkarma wrote:On June 17 2014 02:38 slOosh wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I'm sorry, how is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He hasn't rehashed anything, it's original content and wordiness is alignment null. On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? Hmm? How does it make him scum? On June 16 2014 22:45 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? I agree Release is looking scummy, but I wouldn't use that exact wording. He seems heavily invested in his case, but is only leaning towards ninja's side of this debate. These two statements especially didn't sit right with me from Release's post on 21:10 15 June 2014: "As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies." And yet he ends this same post: "I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ." Release doesn't seem that interested in what may develop from YKZ. He already has the verdict in mind... This is a HUGE inconsistency from how he starts his post. Where's the inconsistency? Leaning may not be indicative of degree of conviction, but merely the direction of it. On June 17 2014 01:45 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 22:45 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? I agree Release is looking scummy, but I wouldn't use that exact wording. He seems heavily invested in his case, but is only leaning towards ninja's side of this debate. These two statements especially didn't sit right with me from Release's post on 21:10 15 June 2014: "As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies." And yet he ends this same post: "I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ." Release doesn't seem that interested in what may develop from YKZ. He already has the verdict in mind... This is a HUGE inconsistency from how he starts his post. You have a point here I really like. Which makes me wonder if scum defending a town here. He's not even considering in what YKZ could or could not do. But then if that's the case, and Release is scum, then YKZ is town, and I don't like that. I really really want to be right that YKZ is scum. You are starting to make associations here and I don't think that's a good idea. Focus on them as individuals. I'm not really sure what else to say here except that there's a large variance of degrees. How I see it, you have release saying "I'm leaning YKZ scum" on first quote and saying "I am unequivocally convinced YKZ is scum" on second one. Release has since posted something in disagreement, but this is what I see when looking at that post. What's more, when would town ever say "...what needs to be said to incriminate..."? That's some super-scummy wording. Town looks to determine who's scum, not to make someone look like scum. Further, when thinking back on my own games the way Release has posted is almost exactly how I handled my first mafia game. I posted a huge case on an easy target then AFK'ed, only posting when I felt I had to. Looking at a few of his past games (when he was town), he had a much easier to follow flow with his posts. Every post in this game feels very calculated, and given how I personally liked to post in previous games as scum, it's easy for me to see how as an insecure newbie scum he would feel inclined to stack as much together as he could into a few very carefully planted posts. Incriminate: " To cause to appear guilty of a crime or fault; implicate" I believe that YKZ is guilty of a crime of fault, but others do not share that opinion with me. Therefore, it is my duty to convince others (you) of his guilt by causing him to appear to be guilty. I see nothing wrong with the use of the word. It is an apt choice. (would you have preferred implicate? same meaning) OP says to reduce spam / one-liners and I play the game fitfully (about an hour each time). On June 17 2014 07:29 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 17 2014 04:46 slOosh wrote:Yea I so I think Artanis is scum. On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release Here is his first post, top of page 8. There are many unnatural things about this post. First is his complaining tone. We are only 5 pages in, and yet he calls it all "bullshit". It's totally out of place and unnatural. Then he moves away from it and blames Release. Two things here. One is that he does nothing to either comment on, or figure out said "bullshit". No reads or questions on either YKZ / 27nb. Nothing to try to figure either one out. Just a straight up dismissal of the whole thing, and moving on to someone else. Next is how he blames Release for it all. When I press him on this issue: On June 17 2014 03:11 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 17 2014 02:38 slOosh wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I'm sorry, how is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He hasn't rehashed anything, it's original content and wordiness is alignment null. Release made a giant post about stuff that was really boring so I didn't get very far in it. The first part is definitely rehash. You're right in that he did add some original content afterwards though. Wordiness being alignment null is debatable but that debate wouldn't go anywhere so let's agree to disagree on that. Nothing but fluff. He doesn't offer any meaningful reason why Release is scum. Look at the backpedaling. "oh yea I guess he added content. I could argue that wordiness isn't alignment null but I won't". He doesn't really care to convince me or others why he finds Release scum. He just wants to put his vote somewhere to look like he is contributing. He dodges the question the first time around so I ask him again: On June 17 2014 03:26 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 17 2014 03:17 slOosh wrote:On June 17 2014 03:11 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 17 2014 02:38 slOosh wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I'm sorry, how is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He hasn't rehashed anything, it's original content and wordiness is alignment null. Release made a giant post about stuff that was really boring so I didn't get very far in it. The first part is definitely rehash. You're right in that he did add some original content afterwards though. Wordiness being alignment null is debatable but that debate wouldn't go anywhere so let's agree to disagree on that. How is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He's the perpetrator of the conversation continuing about that specific topic. Ridiculous. Release is trying to make sense of the debacle, and Artanis is overexaggerating, blaming him for "perpetrating" this "bullshit", while making no effort to either figure out the YKZ / bunnies thing himself, nor make clear how Release is scum for it. Just vague handwaving and avoiding the biggest discussion topic at the time. Artanis is unnatural, Artanis is apathetic, Artanis is scum. ##Vote Artanis[Xp] I think this post makes slOosh scum. DETAILS AT ELEVEN!!! Really? Because he has been the one asking clarifying questions, obviously with a purpose behind them. That fits townie agenda of forwarding the game in my book. Currently, I feel confident in SloOsh and Lazer as town for candid presentation of information and quetions. I feel that 27nb is town but to a lesser extent. I feel confident in YKZ as mafia. I have 100% corrected you and you did not respond to me at all. You had two main points in your first post. 1. Bunnies connection with YKZ's VT claim. 2. "limited information". I questioned you about the VT claim and even after going back to check yourself you still reported false information. Then i said you were still wrong and you still have not responding. You are not even following your own guidelines to not look like scum. Also this "limited information" this has a detail we all missed. I have never read anywhere in the rules where you have to read your role pm before starting play. Obviously u should (have to?) before day one ends. So we all had "equal info" unless we assume someone has read his role pm. It seems like a weird tactic but i still believe this "limited information" thing has very little value. So one of the two things your first post was based on was just wrong and you still did not correct it. The other thing has very little value in my opinion. I am leaning pretty hard to vote for you. Especially when two people have posted how your post had such a great timing. Also i would really like to hear from oats and hear more for the world cup watcher. Also Chezinu's encryption is a hassle. On June 17 2014 12:23 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 00:13 Snickers wrote:On June 16 2014 17:12 Release wrote:On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote:
So far I am leaning towards 27nb as scum. Although i said the kenpachi rule is useless, now that i understand it better, it does have some merit. It seems like for a scum to claim VT first day would be a tactic that would be stupidly selfish, since it would most likely hurt the whole scum team. It seems like a tactic only a bad scum team would use. (But how would a scum team know it had a disadvantage. Maybe with poor roles? Maybe by meta? I do not think a scum team would plan to use the kenpachi rule to their favor.) 27nb has not really commented on the kenpachi rule and is just dismissing it.
Also i am not voting for her yet.
Only eight out of the twelve players have posted so far, so it seems too early.
My reads for other players so far.
Artanis, sloosh and Ve have not said much so no read.
goodkarma seems to be playing standard. Nothing really sticking out at me for now. Maybe I will reread his posts.
Chezinu has a high ratio of text to information. Seems weird but it only the first day. I do not think this information is sufficient enough to even mention the s word.
YKZ seems to be a very knowledgeable player.
It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one.
Please comment on my thoughts First bold is incorrect. YKZ has been acted stubbornly incorrectly and has misrepresented information in a manner that implies that he is correct and 27nb is wrong (whereas the opposite is true). So you essentially have no reads? I doubt anyone has any solid reads except for/against 27nb and YKZ. Weird to include an entire paragraph about null. The above implies bad/useless town but the next paragraph changes my read completely (as it did for 27nb). Second bold: You would prefer that YKZ be town and therefore believe that 27nb is scum? The roles have already been determined. That is a complete lack of reasoning for wanting a lynch but still being swayed? That reeks of scum trying to jump on the bandwagon. On June 16 2014 12:32 Snickers wrote:On June 16 2014 12:14 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 12:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 12:03 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:59 slOosh wrote:
What is this "limited information" that you guys are getting at? On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? What's truly amazing here is what an awesome example this is for Kenpachi Rule Extended. Even after I call it you're still doing it. Assuming you do in fact flip scum I'll have to write a post game analysis just on the first few pages of this game. Maybe I could tie it in with a general Kenpachi and Kenpachi Rule Extended / Zephirdd Rule tutorial. I'm getting more excited by the minute! BH I thought you were some amazing mafia player? Obviously not because YOU ARE WRONG ON ME! And I'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game. See the statement is suspicious to me "i'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game." why the end of the game. It could easily be prove "wrong" the first night. "wrong" as in if your lynched and shown as town. Or if YKZ is lynched and showed scum.I am just trying to show where I think 27nb is thinking in a strange way. Maybe she just thinks that way normally. I do not think the kenpachi rule can be proven wrong. I think it can be proven to not be 100% right though. I think saying it is wrong is stating it has no merit at all. I already explained why i thought a scum could potentially claim VT day one to attempt for an advantage. Also sloosh thanks for posting. I think this kenpachi rule should still be discussed a little more, but I see where you think we should stop the seeming rigmarole. That is a strange statement because asking for town to die to prove something is ridiculous, and is against our goal to kill mafia. However, the second part is correct. Why would you include the first part in this statement? Reeks of mafia. Also quick note on Scientific Method: Nothing can be proven correct, but 1 counterexample demonstrates a need to change the hypothesis. And from 27nb's perspective, I take a neutral stance on what she said. By the end of the game sounds like she was saying that she would be revealed as town when the game conclude, assuming that she would survive the entire game. As opposed to end of the day by getting a lynch of YKZ, but, at that point, not many people had taken a stance on the situation. It's passive but focussed on moving the game forward (as opposed to YKZ's comments which were designed to draw attention to himself and his survival). -----------------------Line for separation-------------------------- On June 16 2014 13:49 Snickers wrote:
Good post release, I wanted to comment on some of your points.
1.I think it should be stated that 27nb mentioned VT in a post before her vote post.
2.Also this "limited information" we all have different levels of information. This is a semi open game so we know what roles are possible but not the quantity. I am assuming that we all could be goons and VT? but even if we were not, information is simply not on the level of scum or town. A PR has more information that a VT because he knows his respective role exists in the game. So i think generally information goes scum>PR>Vt.
Also this "limited information" does not seem like a slip. 27nb was just trying to get the game going and I think two of the people she mentioned did not post. Even now three people have not posted so I would say we all have limited information. On day 1, information :: Mafia > Town.
3.Your point on YKZ claiming he only slips as mafia while playing town. I think this is 10000x more worthy than the "limited information" post. Is YKZ's slip the "limited information" post? I still think this point is very important even though I do not think YKZ slipped with the kenpachi rule or the "limited information"
4. I do not think talk about blue would lead to mafia finding out the blue players. Although it seems bad to claim blue players day one right? If I was scum and said I was vigilante and there was actually someone vigilante, they would shoot me the first night. If I was VT and claimed vigilante, it would help lead scum to target a "less worthy player". But the risk seems to high for that tactic to be valuable. Also i used "less worthy player" because a smart VT would obviously be more worthy than an unintelligent vigilante that shot a PR.
5. Also that speculate post was really ambiguous and I think i may have caused that. I was not speculating that YKZ was a blue. I was trying to show a possibility that was being overlooked by a player. Then 27nb said "I wouldnt speculate" well is she telling me not to speculate or saying she would not personally speculate.
@1: That was a question, separate from her vote. @2: I'm pretty sure we don't use roles on "night 0." (check the Godfather role on the OP) @3: Not too sure what you're asking but I can clarify: "Limited information" indicates scum because on Day 1, no one has any information except for the mafia, so assuming that YKZ is town, he should have less than or equal information to everyone else. Clearly, "limited information" implies that he has more and therefore cannot be town. next point: The Kenpachi rule does not apply but he insisted repeatedly and incorrectly that it did apply, causing chaos in town and trying to lead a mislynch. @4: That sounds really scummy. On day 1, blues have no information more than town so we need to keep them alive. Talking about blues can only increase that chance that mafia corrects identifies blue so talking about blue on day 1 favors mafia. @5: "You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip." this is incorrect. 27nb who thinks YKZ is scum does not speculate whether YKZ is blue because 27nb believes that YKZ is red. YKZ presents information as though 27nb is speculating which is the complete opposite of what is actually happening. Read the second part closely. Speculation only occurs if town is the hypothesis, which is not the case, so again, YKZ makes an incorrect statement and misleads us. 27nb's statement is not a scum slip by any stretch of the imagination. See below: On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
Snickers, you need to work a bit on your quoting, but not bad.
Just hit quote in the upper right corner of the post. It works better!
Also, pr means power role, so yes means same as blue.
I think coming out like that puts yourself in the spotlight.
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. On June 16 2014 11:22 27ninjabunnies wrote:
OMG Bh<3
WTG buddy!
hahaha. im laughing my ass off right now.
So what I'm saying here is that I think you are scum, and I'm not removing my vote from you..
But in the offchance you are town- which I don't believe one bit- town shouldnt speculate this early in the game whether or not a person is blue or just vt. That gives tooooo much information for mafia. That's what I was saying in sayng we shouldnt speculate whether or not you are blue.
That was definitely not a slip, so stop trying to grasp at straws because I caught you d1. Overall, this sounds like a soft defense of YKZ, and such a defense is untenable.\ + Show Spoiler +and with that I am off to bed So i do not think you guys should pick a statement and bold it when right after that statement i said why it would be terrible to do that. I was not asking for 27nb to die, I was saying it was strange for her to act super confident and not mention how she could prove him wrong less than 48 hours than now. 1.In my above post i showed where it was linked to her vote post. Also Her first post about VT was a question. The second one was not. It was then linked to the Vote Post. 2.and 3. Last time I am explaining this unless someone one new to the thread does not understand this. "no one has any information except for the mafia," Since this is a semi open game the knowledge of a PR and a VT is different. Pr knows that his respective role exists. Also we all have information through the posts. 4.So this actually makes sense why talking about blue would be bad day one. (Same logic applies for why we try to get scrum to speak on day one). But i do not think what i said was scummy. I think you said I was scummy then put a true statement after it to try and fool somebody. 5. I still do not understand this speculation idea. I do not think you understand me and are twisting my words a lot to hurt me. You also seem to be twisting 27nb's words a lot to protect her. You seemed to have missed the part where she mentions VT without the question mark. you never responded to this post. Also you seem to not understand the fact that pr have more info than VT. Also you keep highlighting the same thing i did but have you read what i wrote right after that. On June 17 2014 12:54 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 12:44 Release wrote:
Not on day 1 and there is no point in talking about it on day 1.
I read it and it does not excuse illogical play. Regardless of 0/1/2 of 2 scum, you wish does not affect their roles. You soft retract your statement by saying it's a bad reason, but why say it in the first place if that is the case? ok start quoting because i have no clue what "it" is. It is a bad reason why? because we had such little information at the time. I was providing the most detail i could of why i thought 27nb was scum. It was a "long shot" but it still gave me another reason to. I do not understand two thirds of your above post. Why would I not say a bad reason. By bad reason i meant the game was probably going to end up with a lot better reasons for a scum. I am voting you know. I already showed multiple reasons why. ##Vote Release And admit that you are wrong about information. PR has more information than VT. This is a semi open game. PR know if his role exists. VT does not know if any or what PR exists. PR does not know if even one VT exists?(Do not know if this is 100% right because i am new) VT knows at least one VT exists. Both said VT and PR know there is three mafia. Knowing there is a pr is more info than knowing there is a VT. On June 17 2014 13:17 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 13:05 Release wrote:
If you read the original situation in which the information is said, the information relates to 27nb calling out 3 purported mafia and YKZ saying she has less information. It pertains to knowing who and who isn't mafia, and in this case, VT and PR are equally informed (since it is day 1). Knowing there is a pr does not in any way help call out 3 mafia. Therefore it is the same and we should stop talking about PRs. limited does not equal less. Also you do have a point with at the very start of the game PR and VT have the same chance of randomly guessing mafia. But even on day one it could matter. If u were a cop and somebody claimed cop... for example.
Numbers = his bold statement (ie. 1 2 3 4)
1. Yes i was leaning 27nb but that was before a lot of posted and the people that did posted did not post much. So it was the very start of the game. I think I did not even vote for her. The person i voted for flipped scum today. Also i was saying how terrible it was to vote27nb after i had information from all players.
I support the kenpachi rule. It has merit(it has some value) I do not see where release thinks i support further discussion of it. He did not post the post but someone said they were sick of it but i said i still think it should be discussed but i understand how it could be repetitive. I think that release thinks i encouraged further discussion of it by saying how 27nb dismissed it(which she did, koshi is saying this is true but release is denying it i guess make your own decision) And i did say that only two people said what the kenpachi rule was. YKZ explained it in a lot of detail while 27nb did not have a good explanation of it. I wanted someone else to say what it was or if YKZ was talking nonsense. Nobody did so I am still assuming that is was the kenpachi rule is. Second time I am saying this but no one was saying the kenpachi rule was defined wrong they were saying it was being used wrong.
Release also posted to where i said the kenpachi rule was useless. That was my first post to a mafia game ever. I had very little knowledge of the game.(For example i knew the term lylo existed and it was a phase as the end of the game but I did not know it meant lynch or lose.) Then i gathered new info that no was refuting so i did see the merit in it. Notice how i comment on YKZ saying the kenpachi rule also works then said it almost always works. His knowledge of it did not change but he said different things. I said different things but my knowledge of it did change.
I do not understand where I represented information wrong. Also 27nb could say if YKZ was lynched it would be proven by the end of the day. Also release wants to throw in the scientific method bs. It is simply stated as the kenpachi rule has merit but is not 100% correct.
2. I still stand that i did not make an association with YKZ because of the information I posted after that. I guess you all can decide. I was saying another reason i would want to vote 27nb. That would of been a longshot.
3. I thought was release was scum and I made my own case on his. I did not follow Art's case on him. I thought release did have a good point until he did not even know that 27nb said vt twice before he vote post. I think sloosh but somebody said something like good job now somebody is actually reading the thread. I still believe releases whole post was just the same information we have and then a misleading or terrible new point in his case about vt. So either scum or terrible town. I also do not see how I flip flopped (Does this mean I went from one player to another?) I was slightly leaning 27nb, i never even voted for her. I was full blown for you day one. More than mderg. But i played like a team player and consolidated my post like somebody said that was normal so scum votes could not factor that much.
Now these numbers are going to be related to the third bold comments, second spoiler.
I never asked 27nb to die. I was saying how she could of said if she died she would show town and the kenpachi rule would be disproved or if YKZ was lynched and shown scum first day. Things like this is where i think release is either a terrible town or scum. He misreads the simplest of things.
1. Where i was proving to release that he missed that 27nb mentions vt twice before vote post.
2. and 3. Me and Release had a different definition so i think we were both right about that.
4. I agree that talking about blue roles is bad.(My information on the subject changed) I realized that it
is the same thing we do to find scum. I still never talked about who had which blue role. I was
talking about talking about blue roles. I still think this does not have a primary nature to help scum.
I guess you could say it could lead someone else to mention a role with a person.
5. This does not matter much now. Still confused about this.
So i thought release had a very good post because of his thread changing point of the vt thing but then I realize that and i still think that it was wrong because 27nb. says also or another when referring to vt claim. It looks even worst when release did not know a simple fact about how many times 27nb mentioned vt when the thread was small and it was his first post and he could reread. For some reason release thinks i was following art's case but i was not. I think maybe his case triggered my case. Also the two people that mentioned the timing. One of them was me.
4.Already mentioned blue talk. So far my "harping" w/e the hell that means. It sounds so negative. My "harping" or focusing on slight details was my main read on mderg the scum.(letters correspond with only some of the major harps that helped the game)
A. Mderg's comment about hopefully helping tomorrow. I think i was the first person to catch this.
B. Mderg's comment on how he said something that he did not actually say.
Both of these "harps" were accurately reading scum but release defended Mderg both time. I do not know this was because release thought i was misleading, like a scum should or If he wanted to defend Mderg for w/e reason (scum team or did not think he was scum)
I will Harp till the day I die. Cause so far it has led to my 100% lynch record. (no I did not vote for mderg the day he got lynched but I did the first day and I would have continued the second day If I knew(or saw) that people decided to vote him.
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Snickers is now probably town. But if he posts anymore I might reverse that read.
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On June 21 2014 12:51 VisceraEyes wrote:
Snickers is now probably town. But if he posts anymore I might reverse that read.
Care to elaborate. Also can you tell me what I am suppose to do now. I know I am taking a risk but i have a lot of free time now and will not tomorrow. Am i suppose to go back through the thread and try to find connections with mderg. Also am I suppose to look at the prior votes and their timings?
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Short on time again. Will get back to Snickers.
On June 21 2014 12:51 VisceraEyes wrote:
Snickers is now probably town. But if he posts anymore I might reverse that read.
Care to elaborate?
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It was a joke man. He made 3 huge posts in a row. I haven't even read them yet.
So you think Snickers is next I guess. I'll look at that for sure. He was on my list anyway, and I never did get around to reading him. I thought I remembered being scummy on him, but then I realized that it was just me reading you being scummy on him and thinking "I should go look at this guy".
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On June 21 2014 12:58 Release wrote:Short on time again. Will get back to Snickers. Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 12:51 VisceraEyes wrote:
Snickers is now probably town. But if he posts anymore I might reverse that read. Care to elaborate?
If he posts too much, I'm not going to read it. Actually, I not going to read it anyways. Big blocks of text is indicative of mafia. Don't you know almost every behavior can be linked to a mafia play? Well, if you are mafia - you better not waste people's time... too much. You got to get people to love you. For example, Everyone loves Chezinu. No one wants to lynch Chezinu. Mafia don't want to shoot Chezinu. Uh oh... Mafia beware, If you shoot me... There will be mourning! wait.. it all makes sense now.. I have spoken to The Sheriff. Everyone else who has spoken to The Sheriff has died... Am I the chosen one? Little oh chez? Who am I kidding? Chezinu has always been the best! ... but what if that ends here... What if mafia kill me to spite me? What if they try and fulfill the prophecy and kill Chez tonight to secure the lynch of VE? Then.. Chezinu would get shot first..
The truth about brown. Brown is simply red and green all the time. In fact there are many different types of brown. Brown is in its true sense dirty. To understand what I mean, let us examine the color brown in terms of RGB (red,green,blue). If all of red, green, and blue are of equal value - you get grey. The extremes being black and white. Brown is a mix and uneven mixture. But what it contains is a mystery. That which our eyes fail to see. If you were to zoom in on grey.. you will see ones in zeros.. tons of black and white situations that are evenly distributed. All those white situation are display a maximum amount of red, green, blue -- where black shows no of it. So a gray issue is in reality quite easily discernible to one with a sharp eye that can zoom in to see the contrast. Brown... from far away we have the same issue as the gray issue. but this time when we zoom in... it is a mystery! We can't expect to see a uniform distribution of black and white. For the RGB is displayed in different intensities. Brown could be red + green, orange + blue, or yellow + purple. But one thing is for sure about brown, you need all colors. You see, in truth.. every green has a bit of blue in it. For green is blue + yellow. orange is red + yellow, and purple is red + blue... BUT WAIT!!! This system seems to be base on red, yellow, and blue instead of red, green, and blue. We are now talking about mixing paint instead of mixing light. With paint mixing colors leads to darkness whereas mixing light leads to brightness. Absorbing versus reflecting is the key. But let us not stray too far from our discussion of the brown. Brown is mysterious for you never know what to expect until you zoom in. Will red be dominate in the RYB (case red+green) or will yellow (purple + yellow), or blue (case orange +blue). So in RYB one primary has to stand twice as tall as the other primaries to make it brown. So next time you face a gray issue, you will know it is truly a uniform display of black and white. But Brown... That is a mystery full of surprises.
Too sum everything up, huge blocks of text can be quite intimidating. If you write too much, many will miss your key points. Especially if you are cryptic in your writing using code numbers like snickers. But as for catching mafia, it is a brown issue. You never know what type of mafia you are hunting down, as the personalities of people are quite brown and require dedication to unlock the mysteries. If you want to understand more about personalities I recommend reading a book called Please Understand Me.
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So I guess i was suppose to reply to his posts in four different posts. Woops the Newbie is oozing out of me. Anyway you post more than me if you compare how much i was replying to versus how much you were replying to.
I think big posts get people's attention. I will most def make my posts bigger the next game I am in. I put a lot of effort into small posts that A. I do not think many people have read. B. Have not been commented on. I replied to releases whole case before he even made his "case" into one post. People probably will not remember all of those tiny posts. Now this huge post no one will forget. Also it helps me look at the whole case and reply with my own synergy. In hindsight, I should have posted all of my tiny posts reads on mderg into one big posts. I would do that for release but I do not think that would be the most efficient way to use my time. No one has answered me yet but I am almost 100% positive we are suppose to go back and look at mderg's filter and how people reacted with him.
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So I'm going to bed now. It looks like ykz is saying ve is doing scummy things.
Let me harp you by harping. Also can somebody define what ban wagon is for me. I think I'm going to be accused of it here.
I'm not 100 percent sure about all of this because I am on a phone so the rest of this post may be inaccurate slightly.
Ve first day posts did not harp town at all.
I am preatty sure ve was telling me not to harp since it led to him mislynching a lot. He was specifically referring to me harping mderg. Ve said he would provide details at 11 about something but never did. Then be told chezinu(I may be very wrong about the particular player) to get reads on somebody and he would read me then they would switch the next day. Still has not provided reads on me. Ve thought that I did not know 27nb was vt after lynch post. Now ve is talking about releases case on me. Let's all be honest here. I think release may be town and he is saying I am scum but he may actually think I am town. His case on me did not include anything from day 2 or night one. Let's say release is 100 percent town. His case on me is lacking three fifths if the game so I am assuming he had a bigger read on someone else. Ve thinks release is trying to push me now but I do not think so. I think release is just trying to prove me wrong for the same of him being right.
So ve seems disinterested in the game to me. In a way that mderg was . The only time he seemed interested was in defending mderg.
Now I am not calling ve scum. I am just showing my thoughts of one out of eight players.
I will for sure harp town tomorrow by harping some more. I need to review the thread with the new info. I do not think filter diving is the best way to read scum so I will do it the tedious way. I am scared of nighttime. Keep think vigilante or mafia will kill me. Atleast maybe there is no vigilante.
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Snickers stop spending so much goddamn time defending yourself, you're confirmed town.
5 bonus points to the person who knows why.
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So ... I don't know how to feel. My reads feel like the garbage 
VE I'll get back to you on the Lazermonkey read. Just wallowing for a while.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 21 2014 11:47 Snickers wrote:--snip--
Numbers = his bold statement (ie. 1 2 3 4)
1. Yes i was leaning 27nb but that was before a lot of posted and the people that did posted did not post much. So it was the very start of the game. I think I did not even vote for her. The person i voted for flipped scum today. Also i was saying how terrible it was to vote27nb after i had information from all players.
I support the kenpachi rule. It has merit(it has some value) I do not see where release thinks i support further discussion of it. He did not post the post but someone said they were sick of it but i said i still think it should be discussed but i understand how it could be repetitive. I think that release thinks i encouraged further discussion of it by saying how 27nb dismissed it(which she did, koshi is saying this is true but release is denying it i guess make your own decision) And i did say that only two people said what the kenpachi rule was. YKZ explained it in a lot of detail while 27nb did not have a good explanation of it. I wanted someone else to say what it was or if YKZ was talking nonsense. Nobody did so I am still assuming that is was the kenpachi rule is. Second time I am saying this but no one was saying the kenpachi rule was defined wrong they were saying it was being used wrong.
Release also posted to where i said the kenpachi rule was useless. That was my first post to a mafia game ever. I had very little knowledge of the game.(For example i knew the term lylo existed and it was a phase as the end of the game but I did not know it meant lynch or lose.) Then i gathered new info that no was refuting so i did see the merit in it. Notice how i comment on YKZ saying the kenpachi rule also works then said it almost always works. His knowledge of it did not change but he said different things. I said different things but my knowledge of it did change.
I do not understand where I represented information wrong. Also 27nb could say if YKZ was lynched it would be proven by the end of the day. Also release wants to throw in the scientific method bs. It is simply stated as the kenpachi rule has merit but is not 100% correct.
2. I still stand that i did not make an association with YKZ because of the information I posted after that. I guess you all can decide. I was saying another reason i would want to vote 27nb. That would of been a longshot.
3. I thought was release was scum and I made my own case on his. I did not follow Art's case on him. I thought release did have a good point until he did not even know that 27nb said vt twice before he vote post. I think sloosh but somebody said something like good job now somebody is actually reading the thread. I still believe releases whole post was just the same information we have and then a misleading or terrible new point in his case about vt. So either scum or terrible town. I also do not see how I flip flopped (Does this mean I went from one player to another?) I was slightly leaning 27nb, i never even voted for her. I was full blown for you day one. More than mderg. But i played like a team player and consolidated my post like somebody said that was normal so scum votes could not factor that much.
Now these numbers are going to be related to the third bold comments, second spoiler.
I never asked 27nb to die. I was saying how she could of said if she died she would show town and the kenpachi rule would be disproved or if YKZ was lynched and shown scum first day. Things like this is where i think release is either a terrible town or scum. He misreads the simplest of things.
1. Where i was proving to release that he missed that 27nb mentions vt twice before vote post.
2. and 3. Me and Release had a different definition so i think we were both right about that.
4. I agree that talking about blue roles is bad.(My information on the subject changed) I realized that it
is the same thing we do to find scum. I still never talked about who had which blue role. I was
talking about talking about blue roles. I still think this does not have a primary nature to help scum.
I guess you could say it could lead someone else to mention a role with a person.
5. This does not matter much now. Still confused about this.
So i thought release had a very good post because of his thread changing point of the vt thing but then I realize that and i still think that it was wrong because 27nb. says also or another when referring to vt claim. It looks even worst when release did not know a simple fact about how many times 27nb mentioned vt when the thread was small and it was his first post and he could reread. For some reason release thinks i was following art's case but i was not. I think maybe his case triggered my case. Also the two people that mentioned the timing. One of them was me.
4.Already mentioned blue talk. So far my "harping" w/e the hell that means. It sounds so negative. My "harping" or focusing on slight details was my main read on mderg the scum.(letters correspond with only some of the major harps that helped the game)
A. Mderg's comment about hopefully helping tomorrow. I think i was the first person to catch this.
B. Mderg's comment on how he said something that he did not actually say.
Both of these "harps" were accurately reading scum but release defended Mderg both time. I do not know this was because release thought i was misleading, like a scum should or If he wanted to defend Mderg for w/e reason (scum team or did not think he was scum)
I will Harp till the day I die. Cause so far it has led to my 100% lynch record. (no I did not vote for mderg the day he got lynched but I did the first day and I would have continued the second day If I knew(or saw) that people decided to vote him.
3rd spoiler: "Also sloosh thanks for posting. I think this kenpachi rule should still be discussed a little more, but I see where you think we should stop the seeming rigmarole." @ " I do not see where release thinks i support further discussion of it"
@2 Fantastic as in literally fantasy. Pointless.
@3 That is misrep. of info. 27nb did made not even close to the depth or breadth of indictment that I made.
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@2/3/4 don't see how that was supposed to help us. When 27nb initially said not to speculate whether blue or not, that should have been the last meniton of blue discussion Day 1.
It's the bandwagon nature of flipping only after someone else has made accusations.
@4 I disagree. In the end, Mderg's voting timing/pattern is what ultimately got him lynched. Those were not particularly indicative. Just because he flipped mafia does not make every single line of his posts indicative of mafia. + Show Spoiler +For example, yesterday, YKZ was helpful, but I still expect him to flip mafia
Also, harp:
"To talk or write about to an excessive and tedious degree; dwell on." It's just another word.
On June 21 2014 17:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Snickers stop spending so much goddamn time defending yourself, you're confirmed town.
5 bonus points to the person who knows why.
Care to elaborate?
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No Release, I'm desperate to give someone bonus points. Now stop focussing on Snickers, he's not scum. Your attention is better suited for just about anyone that isn't me/snickers/lazer.
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Well I'm going to bed. Maybe I'll see it when I'm less tired tomorrow.
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+ Show Spoiler +So I'm typing this up around 4:30am ... b/c stupid dota tilting ... so excuse any typos or whatever I'm gonna be slightly lenient on the editing. My day 1 interpretation was wrong. Mderg is scum, so D1 looks different. D1 Lynch: 27ninjabunnies the Vanilla Townie has died to lynch!Final Vote Count - Day 1: 27ninjabunnies (7): YouKnowZhou, Artanis[Xp], mderg, Chezinu, Koshi, slOosh, goodkarmaYouKnowZhou (1): Release mderg (4): Snickers, VisceraEyes, 27ninjabunnies, Lazermonkey
27ninjabunnies is lynched with 7 votes! Ok nvm I don't know how to do vote analysis. Crap. UHhh Right things that stick out D1: Snickers calls out mderg first I think, before anyone else. VE follows up. Artanis doesn't like it. Snicker joins, Lazer odesn't like so he backs off, I don't like so I back off. On June 18 2014 04:35 Chezinu wrote:
##UnVote
##Vote: mderg
Art it is time to have some fun! Let's do this!!! This post makes lots of sense here in hindsight. I move to VE, Lazer joins me. YKZ comes in and asks a summary of mderg case couple times. On June 18 2014 05:33 Kurumi wrote:Vote Count - Day 1: mderg (3): VisceraEyes, Lazermonkey, Chezinu, Snickers 27ninjabunnies (2): YouKnowZhou, Lazermonkey, mderg VisceraEyes (2): Lazermonkey, slOosh YouKnowZhou (1): 27ninjabunnies, Release, goodkarmaKoshi (1): Artanis[Xp] Release (0): Artanis[Xp], SnickersArtanis[Xp] (0): slOoshCurrently Not Voting (3): goodkarma, Koshi, 27ninjabunnies,
Currently mderg is set to be lynched with 3 votes! Day will end in
Ok, scum probably starting to feel the heat here? On June 18 2014 05:38 mderg wrote:
Also, what the hell is it with Chezinu? He doesn´t even try to make sense. Chezinu rule? Chezinu rule. Artanis not liking these votes, goes on Koshi. I'm still gungho on VE. Stuff stuff stuff. Ultimately on page 18 Artanis town reads mderg and YKZ makes a bigger push on bunnies. I townread mderg here too.
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Artanis probably meant the mderg vote. If it brought Snickers in the lead it looks pretty good for Snickers. Snickers was on mderg his ass so mderg might have gotten greedy. Mderg didnt move to bh when he could, so why move to a teammate?
I am back condemned to phone posting for today.
My fav lynch for tomorrkw is VE or lazermonkey. I agree that the vote put it him the spotlight but it was so obviously extremely strange. I dont see why town would do it.
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On June 21 2014 21:14 Koshi wrote:
Artanis probably meant the mderg vote. If it brought Snickers in the lead it looks pretty good for Snickers. Snickers was on mderg his ass so mderg might have gotten greedy. Mderg didnt move to bh when he could, so why move to a teammate?
I am back condemned to phone posting for today.
My fav lynch for tomorrkw is VE or lazermonkey. I agree that the vote put it him the spotlight but it was so obviously extremely strange. I dont see why town would do it.
Ding ding ding, we have a winner. I think your lynch targets are bad though. Also, the town reasoning should be obvious; he thought YKZ was more scummy than mderg, so he tried to get YKZ lynched.
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EPT
