EPTTL Mafia LXIII: Time to Die - Page 206
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Oatsmaster
United States16627 Posts
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
On November 20 2013 11:27 thrawn2112 wrote: (1) I don't know what you mean here. I did make that joke about pandain being honest but it wasn't really anything more than that, a joke. If you look at the rest of my posts and my D2 vote I definitely didn't let him off the hook like you're suggesting (2) lol no (3) null (4/5) i'm way too lazy to read that game and besides that I don't see what scum newbie mocsta has to do with this game's mocsta. and can you or somebody else explain what's so bad about BC's analysis? this is what seems to be the core of it: "I say this not because of how strongly my gut screams hes red, but purely on how the interactions between mocsta and him were. Mocsta appeared to be extremely angry/cross/annoyed/etc... almost exclusively with grack which is completely different from how he interacted with basically everyone in this game and everyone in personality." 1 mocsta is scum... his flip confirms this 2 grack is scum... he is unflipped but I hope to finally get people to reevaluate him now that we can talk about non-bh stuff 3 if # 2 is correct then it would make PERFECT sense that mocsta decided to buss grack go read grack's filter up to the end of N1. pretend that grack is scum and pretend that you're scum mocsta. does BC's stuff make sense now? speaking of reading grack's filter, can everyone go read grack's filter? people said they would do that if BH doesn't flip scum and I don't see that happening THIS is why:+ Show Spoiler + BloodyC0bbler This particular individual falls under the same category as oats, just in a more articulate way. He tries to act like he is "participating" but quite frankly, avoids any and all speculating or hunting. That is until there is "content": + Show Spoiler + On November 16 2013 01:39 BloodyC0bbler wrote: now that theres some content to the game lets get this shit on the go. Grackeroni This guy is clearly red. Nothing he has done in the span of the game so far is in anyway shape or form actions of town. One of his opening posts is this Kush is one of the single most disruptive players I have ever played with. He trolls and is generally unhelpful and annoying. Anyone advocating a waste of skin player to be elected is not doing it for any purposes other than his own sadistic pleasure and general fuck you stance to everyone hes playing with. No town should be doing this period. After that post he follows it up with retarded back and forth comments with pandain calling the two of them mafia (himself and pandain). He then calls out someone for calling them mafia and says he should have kush kill them. Nothing really important and all trolling. All incredibly annoying. He then proceedes to say that he will only tell us if he finds mafia, and will 100% accept whatever decision pandain says unless he otherwise says. Hes not being helpful hes directly passing off all responsibility of his "reads" to another player. Town has no bloody reason to do this. He ignores all reads for ages accept for storr in which he tries to elegantly duck out from at first then all in defends the guy on terrrrible reasons. RNG is never good, Storr isn't a newb. He then continues to troll and spout useless "non alignment indicative" drival which is imo a huge tell about him. He has been incredibly active compared to most players and said exactly nothing of substantial quality nor is he even attempting to do so or promising to do so. He has shown that he doesn't fucking care about town and thus should be removed by fire. Lets move on to the next one shall we Storrzerg The guy has pulled out RNG as a reason to lynch people and has continuously in most of his posts pulled the newb card. I know for a fact he played with me years ago and may be rusty but is in no shape or form new. I also know he plays mafia elsewhere. The fact he pulls a card he should be fully aware at least some of us know is a lie raises insane red flags for me. Anyone who actively lies about something to manipulate an election to his own advantage cannot be town. I have strong inclinations against Risen, and Rayn, but I want to see more. VE, Oats, and SS are all town currently in my books and anyone harassing them for anything other than their aggression needs their head examined. Yamato get off my dick. If you thought I was mafia you should know damn well to hold onto your train of thought until more time has passed and I've posted more to validate your opinion. By posting shit on how I haven't committed to anything by the 7 hour mark you look like a retard. The sheer data available to formulate decent reads of any shape usually doesn't exist by that time. There were so so many things going on in the game. There was me and rayn, there was mocsta making a case (where was that mentioned??) he came under a lot of flak, a lot of people gave reads on it and questioned him but still... no mention of that either. The only thing that does get mentioned is .... grack and storrzerg??? Some of the 2 most non-descript people within the game. Grack, yes, had been trolling but had also been coming under a lot of flak. He was the perfect person to lay scum reads on without making him come under threat because the case was quite frankly shit. Grack has been trolling? What's new? He is always carefree and trollish and while BC does not like trolls or whatever he states, this is so out of the blue and unreasonable that it just left me going "Huh??". This was when my interest was truly piqued in regards to BC. While he is defending his read of grack he tries to point out a game where "town grack" was located (hogwarts), to artanis: On November 16 2013 02:42 BloodyC0bbler wrote: artanis do me a favour read this for me http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=431052&user=Grackaroni¤tpage=3 tell me how that game differs from this one. Hint, grack was town in that one However, he quite conveniently linked from page 3. Why is this? It is quite clearly a misrepresentation of Grack intentionally placed to make him look bad. The game started on page 1 for grack and he was trolly and posting fluff from then to page 3. It is only on that page that things start to change, much like this game. This is but an instance of BC misconstruing points to work in his favour. On November 16 2013 07:13 BloodyC0bbler wrote: hes clearly active while posting near no content while "appearing" to weigh in on things. I noticed he was doing it, watched, have seen 0 improvement and thus why I opted for him. hes given material to hang him with. As I've shown you in the oats case, this is the same deal for him, yet there is no mention of oats whatsoever despite his appearences in the start of the game? Why not? It's because grack is the lynch bait. This is where things get super crazy clairvoyant: + Show Spoiler + On November 18 2013 13:19 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Looking over how Mocsta plays mafia in personality 2 has led me to a bit of insight into his current game. Given that it is one game that I have looked at as its one of the A) large games B) full of big names I think its the best pool to work with. Mocsta's doesn't like starting confrontation with his own teammates. In fact he doesn't really like causing a ton of confrontation period. He carefully and calmly writes his posts. In Personality he opted to tunnel corazon until he died. This game he was tunneling Storr and grack. Aside from that he likes to drop reads without giving any solid background information for. He likes to buddy up to strong vet players and avoid sticking his neck out whatsoever. He makes basic comments on situations but only enough to appear active / fan the flames. To be quite honest his play in personality 2 and here is borderline identical. This only changes near the end of the game when mafia was basically the only ones left with a small pool of townies. Given that I would say virtually every name he mentioned is likely town given his history of actively ignoring his team in thread. As such I would tentatively list the group I mentioned before as all likely town. The only odd exception to this although very slight would be grack. I say this not because of how strongly my gut screams hes red, but purely on how the interactions between mocsta and him were. Mocsta appeared to be extremely angry/cross/annoyed/etc... almost exclusively with grack which is completely different from how he interacted with basically everyone in this game and everyone in personality. There is no way a towny mentality is to read up on mocsta's meta to see how he plays with fellow scum to then determine he doesn't bus them to then determine that everyone he was arguing with is town APART FROM GRACK. I know people in this thread have argued with BC about this but arguing with the person that does it is not productive because they will say anything to make themselves seem right. It's just flat out not a logical step in reasoning. This is the biggest ???? of the post. Mocsta was definitely definitely arguing with artanis(? not checked if it was him, it was definitely someone), in fact artanis was the first person that stuck in my mind for arguing with mocsta, not grack. So why was his first reaction to base mocsta's aggression as a scum/scum confrontation when mocsta's meta says otherwise??? It's because he is still on top of making grack look bad in any way shape or form. On November 19 2013 01:16 BloodyC0bbler wrote: His meta shows he distances himself and almost exclusively talks with town. He tunnels a townie he views as bad (storr). He then does everything else he did this game which is try and not be on radars. I am saying grack is different because of HOW he talked to him. Read personality 2, read this games filter. His interactions with grack are completely different than any other he had. He seems in this game to have a genuine reaction of anger/annoyance/whatever to grack. The guy carefully writes posts. Why would his interactions with 1 player be completely different from everything else his meta suggests? I would say cause he was legit pissed at grack for tunneling the shit out of him. I am reading it off of one specific reaction. Could I be wrong? Yes. However Grack has done basically nothing this game to make me doubt that read of the situation. If mocsta was as pissed as I think he was it would make perfect sense to still dive on grack. I still just don't comprehend a towny mindset. Mocsta is scum, somebody tunnels him. Mocsta feels pressured and argues with the person so vehemently that BC thinks grack is therefore scum? Why is the alternative (that grack was correct in finding scum, albeit, tunneled and that annoyed mocsta because he wouldn't drop it) not the first assumption that was stated? He seems too confident in this. Like I said, NOT a town mindset. _____________________________ On November 20 2013 11:29 Grackaroni wrote: Oats looks really scummy as town lol. When he's scum he tries to make his posts seem sensible, plays more passively, and tries to avoid getting a lot of attention. This Oats is getting in dumb fights constantly; town Oats is agressive, confrontational, and dumber than scum Oats. The case I stated says the exact opposite, he is anything BUT confrontational in this game. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43188 Posts
On November 20 2013 11:28 Holyflare wrote: he only mentioned mocsta last second on an on the cuff remark, who is to say if he became mayor that somebody couldn't have "changed his mind"? it is wifom at best and shouldn't really matter either way This is what i tried to say earlier. supersoft says after the deadline "i am rereading Mocsta's filter". There is no guarantee he would lynch Mocsta at all. Especially considering he does never bring Mocsta up on N1. Not a single time after the lynch. | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
On November 20 2013 11:30 austinmcc wrote: I think you're conflating two things? My stance on MOCSTA was that I couldn't get a scumread on him. My stance on mocsta has changed because he flipped red. My stance on BC yesterday was that I did not like his play, found him kind of scummy. + Show Spoiler + On November 16 2013 11:28 austinmcc wrote: He actively engaged me early when he didn't need to, which I found mildly townie. His return post on grack I didn't care too much for. BC can make that post as either alignment, it doesn't say much. The most interesting thing in his return is the stuff at the tail end, the quick minor lists of reads:That bit looks decent there, including the response to yamato, which I'm fine with. But after being suspicious on rayn, he...he has this weird interaction. He asks rayn about risen, agrees to look at rayn's HF case, seems to find 2/3 of the 3 points rayn made on HF unconvincing + Show Spoiler + On November 16 2013 01:59 BloodyC0bbler wrote: You didnt actively call him town but you did say you would ignore him and won't consider him for now. I can see this being stretched to "calling risen town" but yes you never actually said those words. Ignoring a player in full though tends to make people think town read. I don't think him having a non alignment indicative campaign is a bad thing. I would argue that making a "huge pro town" one is actually hard to do. Campaigns are required if someone seriously wants to be elected but past that their actions determine if they get elected. I would never elect HF based on his election post but I also wouldn't kill him for it. Point 3 has a ton of merit and looks bad. I honestly prefer a grack / storr lynch at this point but if HF keeps this behaviour up we will have a solid #3 to the list The train of thought there, as I read things, is: (1) rayn is on my watch list; (2) rayn made this case; (3) I don't like 2 of his 3 points; (4) the 3rd is good therefore I will consider rayn's target maybe scummy. Within the development of BC/rayn, I never saw BC call out rayn as TOWN, or specifically like anything rayn said and find it super awesome. Which leaves me wondering why rayn, who was suspicious a moment ago, has a single good point and two bad points on HF, yet HF now jumps up BC's lynch list. He engages Artanis which I like okay, gives Artanis a task, follows up, has clearly actually looked into Grackaroni. Overall, the BC read on rayn/HF is confusing to me, and I would like to hear what he was thinking throughout that. Otherwise, I don't want to lynch him, but I really really really don't want him in office. I think his grackaroni suspicion is supported by real stuff, but it's stuff he can find well enough as town OR mafia, and there's nothing in his filter that makes me confident he's actually town. A lot of his posting has been addressing side issues (his hatred of trolling, his thoughts re: storrzerg's newbieness or lack thereof), and if you eliminate side issues and grackaroni, his filter is very very meh (hopeless should post more/better, AMG SUCH A TOWNIE THOUGHT). I think that IF he's very obviously town, he's a fine person to slap a vest on. But I do not read him as such, and I would not want him voted for anything right now. On November 17 2013 03:20 austinmcc wrote: And a bunch of other posts where I ask people about their BC reads, ask for updates, etc.Still of the mind that his big post on grack/storr is not something to draw a read off of. I don't know about you, i THINK it was Acrofales and not you that I was scum with once and we were chatting about opportunities to make very townie housecleaning/scumhunting posts in the middle of shitfights while being scum. HolyFlare and...was it rayn? Yes. Were fighting, being spammy, trying to take control of the thread and rayn was really trying to get discussion centered on his HF case. There were a LOT of folks not being examined yet, it was early, and I think BC as town OR scum would notice that thread really needs a half-decent case at someone in that un-examined group to (a) turn discussion towards something more fruitful and (b) get AWAY from rayn/HF. It's not scummy to do that, but it's not as townie as other people make it out to be. The rest of his filter...there's a lot of side stuff. Discussions over ss and VE mayoral candidacies. Questioning yamato's townieness re mayor/pardonership. Apart from his one sizeable reads post, I see way more discussion of side issues or sniping at little things than I like. Towniest thing in his filter for me is him pointing you towards a specific grack game to read. But for all his posts, there isn't much of substance. Certainly don't want him elected, mildly scummy on him. Just way too much about hating trolls, skorr not being a noob, hopeless not having contributed enough, who should be mayor, it's all...not scumhunty, and it rarely/never leads anywhere. My turn. If I may, let's mix things up a little. BOTH ONEGU AND HOLYFLARE, GO! Or in mason chat - "I'm currently not loving BC, not loving cheesecake, not loving lonemeow (but I have zero experience with the guy), and generally not very sure on anything." (/m57) The way that BC has acted today has not improved my read on him. He has continued to be mainly involved in side discussion, and where he interacts with the mocsta flip reads, I find his interaction to be...questionable at best. Your stance on mocsta was you couldn't get a scum read because he wasn't demonstrating anything you saw that applied to the newbie game. His red flip should not change this at all. BC is scummy for the reasons I linked in my post. | ||
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Grackaroni
United States9832 Posts
On November 20 2013 11:30 raynpelikoneet wrote: I don't even need to read Grack's filter to know it's terrible. lol no. | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16627 Posts
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43188 Posts
Well you called everyone who accused you scum and then basically went afk at D2 start. I agree that if you had known BH is not scum (being scum) you would have probably done something to avoid this situation and that's a point in your favor - i mean if you were scum you would have known BH will flip non-scum and therefore tried to avoid this situation by being more active on D2. I am not calling you scum, i just think you could be more productive because i know you are capable of being more productive. | ||
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Grackaroni
United States9832 Posts
On November 20 2013 11:22 raynpelikoneet wrote: Because he is acting like a baby and every time he posts he whines about me posting so much bohoo too hard to read bullcrap and then says nothing.. Also as i said i refuse to believe scum did not want to run for mayor. so basically.... SS is scum because he complains about you? Sounds logical. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On November 20 2013 11:34 Holyflare wrote: His red flip changes my read on him, yes. I am now 100% convinced that mocsta was scum.Your stance on mocsta was you couldn't get a scum read because he wasn't demonstrating anything you saw that applied to the newbie game. His red flip should not change this at all. BC is scummy for the reasons I linked in my post. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43188 Posts
On November 20 2013 11:43 Grackaroni wrote: so basically.... SS is scum because he complains about you? Sounds logical. No because half of his posts is complaining about me and the other half is complaining about something else.. He's supposed to be a fucking town leader, yet he doing nothing to be one. | ||
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Grackaroni
United States9832 Posts
On November 20 2013 11:43 raynpelikoneet wrote: Well you called everyone who accused you scum and then basically went afk at D2 start. I agree that if you had known BH is not scum (being scum) you would have probably done something to avoid this situation and that's a point in your favor - i mean if you were scum you would have known BH will flip non-scum and therefore tried to avoid this situation by being more active on D2. I am not calling you scum, i just think you could be more productive because i know you are capable of being more productive. I don't think Koshi was accusing me earlier, but yeah a lot of the accusations against me having been scummy. Mocsta was scummy. BC's post was scummy and he is still scummy. VE/BH were basically scum too lol. I Don't see what the problem is. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
Also, if you think he's mafia and i'm mafia, I chose to make him pardoner and not mayor | ||
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Grackaroni
United States9832 Posts
On November 20 2013 11:42 Oatsmaster wrote: Hey grack you deny that your filter is terrible? vehemently. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43188 Posts
On November 20 2013 11:48 austinmcc wrote: rayn, ss is very likely town. Also, if you think he's mafia and i'm mafia, I chose to make him pardoner and not mayor Yeah and pardoner is pro-scum role and better than mayor if the mayor lynches town on D1. Also as people have said supersoft said he will lynch Mocsta. So i don't see the problem here. | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16627 Posts
Its terrible. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On November 20 2013 11:54 raynpelikoneet wrote: I will draw a picture for you in a bit.Yeah and pardoner is pro-scum role and better than mayor if the mayor lynches town on D1. Also as people have said supersoft said he will lynch Mocsta. So i don't see the problem here. The problem is that methinks you are wrong about ss's alignment. And meknows you're wrong about me. And the scenarios you are creating don't really make the BEST sense. So I think you need to reexamine. | ||
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Grackaroni
United States9832 Posts
people just say that because I make a lot of random posts. The reads in there are solid. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43188 Posts
On November 20 2013 11:56 austinmcc wrote: I will draw a picture for you in a bit. The problem is that methinks you are wrong about ss's alignment. And meknows you're wrong about me. And the scenarios you are creating don't really make the BEST sense. So I think you need to reexamine. Don't twist the argument. You said it does not make sense for you two to be scum i said it makes perfect sense if you are scum. Now how does it not make sense if you are both scum again? | ||
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Grackaroni
United States9832 Posts
On November 20 2013 11:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: Don't twist the argument. You said it does not make sense for you two to be scum i said it makes perfect sense if you are scum. Now how does it not make sense if you are both scum again? there's still the fact that SS had absolutely no way of knowing that VE would show up for the lynch. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43188 Posts
On November 20 2013 12:02 Grackaroni wrote: there's still the fact that SS had absolutely no way of knowing that VE would show up for the lynch. I have fucking explained that three times already. There is no guarantee ss will in fact lynch Mocsta. How the fuck is it so hard to read the thread? This is why i need to post all the stuff many times, people do not read. | ||
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