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On September 28 2013 01:38 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 00:42 vthree wrote:On September 28 2013 00:34 rikter wrote:
Glad they got rid of the DT's, but the oracle change is lame. People talking about how its the same speed as the mutalisk seem to be forgetting that the mutas hit at the ten minute mark, while oracles hit at five. By the time the mutas are in play the ebay is up, stim is done, and I can actually catch the mutas. When an oracle shows up, I have no stim, less units, and no plans to build an ebay at 430 or so to have turrets in time.
The oracle isnt used late game because it sucks in that role. The observer provides better scouting, and just about anything else is hardier and more useful.
Widow mine change isnt bad, especially coupled with tank buff. I think Blizz wants to see both units in the bio force vZ, with the mines shifting more to an anti air role while the tanks do better against the ground stuff. An extra shot off per tank makes a huge difference vs lings and banes, so theres balance in TvZ. The mirror is a wash and no one uses tanks and mines vs P anyways, so this is, I think, one of the better balance changes they have made. At least in terms of not fixing one matchup while trashing another. 1 of the main problems with tanks vs ling bane muta was that they usually got 1 shot off before lings got in Merle range. Plus they are easy to surround if they are on creep. Lowering the cool down time between shots are nice. But not sure if the 0.3 second decrease will actually let tanks get more shots off. This is the wrong way to think about it. It's not about getting an extra shot off, it's about getting the shots it does get off quicker. Consider the following: Each shot erases a clump of banes or lings, correct? That means the after the first shot, the next group dies .3 seconds faster, meaning there are .3 additional seconds where your marines are shooting other things, and that clump is not attacking your units. When the third shot comes, it's .6 seconds faster than it originally was, so another clump is gone .6 seconds faster than it would have been. Even if the tank doesn't get more attacks than it ordinarily would (incidentally, it's likely that it will), it's still being substantially more effective. Why is it that 3 marines beat 2 marines, but 15 marines absolutely slaughter 2 marines? It's about destroying the enemy DPS as fast as possible, and therefore reducing the damage the enemy army can do to you. The faster you kill the enemy army, the less damage your enemy army gets to attempt to do to you, and you therefore wind up with more units leftover after the battle. As for whether or not a .3 second attack speed reduction will allow more shots to get off than normal: Consider an engagement. If the tank dies in the 2.7-2.99 second mark of the fight, it got another shot off than it would have otherwise. If it dies in the 5.4-5.99 second mark, it got an extra shot off. If it dies in the 8.1-8.99 second mark, it got an extra shot off. I mean, FFS, this is a 10% attack speed buff, that's fricken huge!
The 10% attack buff is not as big as you think. AoE units are all about landing the first shot. If you looked at tanks in TvZ in WoL, unless they were behind a wall or in a entrench position that the opposition couldn't break, their first shot did 60-70% of the damage.
Here is an extreme example of the firing rate. Think about it, that is why the widow mine is so good compare to tank. If you want to look at firing rate, the tank is like 1300% faster at only +200% the cost. The tank should be much better, right?
zerg units are so fast (especially on creep) that by the time the 2nd shot fires, they are already pretty spread out.
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Vatican City State431 Posts
Its the same like the previous patch when they nerfed hellbats and "buffed" banshees..Nobody uses banshees except in TvT. I don't understand why Thor doesn't has the same armor as the Ultralisk or the same hp for starter. Oh wait! I remember now: David Kim said he hates mass Thor gameplay...but he also loves mass Ultras and mass Collosus or Immortall. If this isn't bias towards the other races I don't know what it is. Why did he removed the the warhound from the game completely? He didn't even tried to balance it...As long as there are Vipers and Swarm Hosts in the game Mech is beyond repair. It was a very big mistake to put free units in the game.
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United States7483 Posts
On September 28 2013 02:02 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 01:38 Whitewing wrote:On September 28 2013 00:42 vthree wrote:On September 28 2013 00:34 rikter wrote:
Glad they got rid of the DT's, but the oracle change is lame. People talking about how its the same speed as the mutalisk seem to be forgetting that the mutas hit at the ten minute mark, while oracles hit at five. By the time the mutas are in play the ebay is up, stim is done, and I can actually catch the mutas. When an oracle shows up, I have no stim, less units, and no plans to build an ebay at 430 or so to have turrets in time.
The oracle isnt used late game because it sucks in that role. The observer provides better scouting, and just about anything else is hardier and more useful.
Widow mine change isnt bad, especially coupled with tank buff. I think Blizz wants to see both units in the bio force vZ, with the mines shifting more to an anti air role while the tanks do better against the ground stuff. An extra shot off per tank makes a huge difference vs lings and banes, so theres balance in TvZ. The mirror is a wash and no one uses tanks and mines vs P anyways, so this is, I think, one of the better balance changes they have made. At least in terms of not fixing one matchup while trashing another. 1 of the main problems with tanks vs ling bane muta was that they usually got 1 shot off before lings got in Merle range. Plus they are easy to surround if they are on creep. Lowering the cool down time between shots are nice. But not sure if the 0.3 second decrease will actually let tanks get more shots off. This is the wrong way to think about it. It's not about getting an extra shot off, it's about getting the shots it does get off quicker. Consider the following: Each shot erases a clump of banes or lings, correct? That means the after the first shot, the next group dies .3 seconds faster, meaning there are .3 additional seconds where your marines are shooting other things, and that clump is not attacking your units. When the third shot comes, it's .6 seconds faster than it originally was, so another clump is gone .6 seconds faster than it would have been. Even if the tank doesn't get more attacks than it ordinarily would (incidentally, it's likely that it will), it's still being substantially more effective. Why is it that 3 marines beat 2 marines, but 15 marines absolutely slaughter 2 marines? It's about destroying the enemy DPS as fast as possible, and therefore reducing the damage the enemy army can do to you. The faster you kill the enemy army, the less damage your enemy army gets to attempt to do to you, and you therefore wind up with more units leftover after the battle. As for whether or not a .3 second attack speed reduction will allow more shots to get off than normal: Consider an engagement. If the tank dies in the 2.7-2.99 second mark of the fight, it got another shot off than it would have otherwise. If it dies in the 5.4-5.99 second mark, it got an extra shot off. If it dies in the 8.1-8.99 second mark, it got an extra shot off. I mean, FFS, this is a 10% attack speed buff, that's fricken huge! The 10% attack buff is not as big as you think. AoE units are all about landing the first shot. If you looked at tanks in TvZ in WoL, unless they were behind a wall or in a entrench position that the opposition couldn't break, their first shot did 60-70% of the damage. Here is an extreme example of the firing rate. Think about it, that is why the widow mine is so good compare to tank. If you want to look at firing rate, the tank is like 1300% faster at only +200% the cost. The tank should be much better, right? zerg units are so fast (especially on creep) that by the time the 2nd shot fires, they are already pretty spread out.
The tank in bio/tank and the mines in bio/mine are really only for making the numbers managable for the marines to split then kill, and for targeting banelings in particular. I'm discussing this from a context of a mech army, where you have a lot more tanks. And yeah, the 10% attack buff is huge even in bio/tank. Great players will make great use of them.
Except you are missing the fact that tanks damage has friendly fire. So once enemies are in melee range of your own units, the Terran takes a lot of damage as well.
Vthree, if you are arguing that the tank buff isn't a buff because you might kill your own units with a better tank, then I don't know what to tell you, but you've lost perspective.
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On September 28 2013 02:19 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 02:02 vthree wrote:On September 28 2013 01:38 Whitewing wrote:On September 28 2013 00:42 vthree wrote:On September 28 2013 00:34 rikter wrote:
Glad they got rid of the DT's, but the oracle change is lame. People talking about how its the same speed as the mutalisk seem to be forgetting that the mutas hit at the ten minute mark, while oracles hit at five. By the time the mutas are in play the ebay is up, stim is done, and I can actually catch the mutas. When an oracle shows up, I have no stim, less units, and no plans to build an ebay at 430 or so to have turrets in time.
The oracle isnt used late game because it sucks in that role. The observer provides better scouting, and just about anything else is hardier and more useful.
Widow mine change isnt bad, especially coupled with tank buff. I think Blizz wants to see both units in the bio force vZ, with the mines shifting more to an anti air role while the tanks do better against the ground stuff. An extra shot off per tank makes a huge difference vs lings and banes, so theres balance in TvZ. The mirror is a wash and no one uses tanks and mines vs P anyways, so this is, I think, one of the better balance changes they have made. At least in terms of not fixing one matchup while trashing another. 1 of the main problems with tanks vs ling bane muta was that they usually got 1 shot off before lings got in Merle range. Plus they are easy to surround if they are on creep. Lowering the cool down time between shots are nice. But not sure if the 0.3 second decrease will actually let tanks get more shots off. This is the wrong way to think about it. It's not about getting an extra shot off, it's about getting the shots it does get off quicker. Consider the following: Each shot erases a clump of banes or lings, correct? That means the after the first shot, the next group dies .3 seconds faster, meaning there are .3 additional seconds where your marines are shooting other things, and that clump is not attacking your units. When the third shot comes, it's .6 seconds faster than it originally was, so another clump is gone .6 seconds faster than it would have been. Even if the tank doesn't get more attacks than it ordinarily would (incidentally, it's likely that it will), it's still being substantially more effective. Why is it that 3 marines beat 2 marines, but 15 marines absolutely slaughter 2 marines? It's about destroying the enemy DPS as fast as possible, and therefore reducing the damage the enemy army can do to you. The faster you kill the enemy army, the less damage your enemy army gets to attempt to do to you, and you therefore wind up with more units leftover after the battle. As for whether or not a .3 second attack speed reduction will allow more shots to get off than normal: Consider an engagement. If the tank dies in the 2.7-2.99 second mark of the fight, it got another shot off than it would have otherwise. If it dies in the 5.4-5.99 second mark, it got an extra shot off. If it dies in the 8.1-8.99 second mark, it got an extra shot off. I mean, FFS, this is a 10% attack speed buff, that's fricken huge! The 10% attack buff is not as big as you think. AoE units are all about landing the first shot. If you looked at tanks in TvZ in WoL, unless they were behind a wall or in a entrench position that the opposition couldn't break, their first shot did 60-70% of the damage. Here is an extreme example of the firing rate. Think about it, that is why the widow mine is so good compare to tank. If you want to look at firing rate, the tank is like 1300% faster at only +200% the cost. The tank should be much better, right? zerg units are so fast (especially on creep) that by the time the 2nd shot fires, they are already pretty spread out. The tank in bio/tank and the mines in bio/mine are really only for making the numbers managable for the marines to split then kill, and for targeting banelings in particular. I'm discussing this from a context of a mech army, where you have a lot more tanks. And yeah, the 10% attack buff is huge even in bio/tank. Great players will make great use of them. Show nested quote +Except you are missing the fact that tanks damage has friendly fire. So once enemies are in melee range of your own units, the Terran takes a lot of damage as well. Vthree, if you are arguing that the tank buff isn't a buff because you might kill your own units with a better tank, then I don't know what to tell you, but you've lost perspective.
However, it is true that by the second shot the zerg units are already closing in and there is more likely to be friendly fire.
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On September 28 2013 02:19 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 02:02 vthree wrote:On September 28 2013 01:38 Whitewing wrote:On September 28 2013 00:42 vthree wrote:On September 28 2013 00:34 rikter wrote:
Glad they got rid of the DT's, but the oracle change is lame. People talking about how its the same speed as the mutalisk seem to be forgetting that the mutas hit at the ten minute mark, while oracles hit at five. By the time the mutas are in play the ebay is up, stim is done, and I can actually catch the mutas. When an oracle shows up, I have no stim, less units, and no plans to build an ebay at 430 or so to have turrets in time.
The oracle isnt used late game because it sucks in that role. The observer provides better scouting, and just about anything else is hardier and more useful.
Widow mine change isnt bad, especially coupled with tank buff. I think Blizz wants to see both units in the bio force vZ, with the mines shifting more to an anti air role while the tanks do better against the ground stuff. An extra shot off per tank makes a huge difference vs lings and banes, so theres balance in TvZ. The mirror is a wash and no one uses tanks and mines vs P anyways, so this is, I think, one of the better balance changes they have made. At least in terms of not fixing one matchup while trashing another. 1 of the main problems with tanks vs ling bane muta was that they usually got 1 shot off before lings got in Merle range. Plus they are easy to surround if they are on creep. Lowering the cool down time between shots are nice. But not sure if the 0.3 second decrease will actually let tanks get more shots off. This is the wrong way to think about it. It's not about getting an extra shot off, it's about getting the shots it does get off quicker. Consider the following: Each shot erases a clump of banes or lings, correct? That means the after the first shot, the next group dies .3 seconds faster, meaning there are .3 additional seconds where your marines are shooting other things, and that clump is not attacking your units. When the third shot comes, it's .6 seconds faster than it originally was, so another clump is gone .6 seconds faster than it would have been. Even if the tank doesn't get more attacks than it ordinarily would (incidentally, it's likely that it will), it's still being substantially more effective. Why is it that 3 marines beat 2 marines, but 15 marines absolutely slaughter 2 marines? It's about destroying the enemy DPS as fast as possible, and therefore reducing the damage the enemy army can do to you. The faster you kill the enemy army, the less damage your enemy army gets to attempt to do to you, and you therefore wind up with more units leftover after the battle. As for whether or not a .3 second attack speed reduction will allow more shots to get off than normal: Consider an engagement. If the tank dies in the 2.7-2.99 second mark of the fight, it got another shot off than it would have otherwise. If it dies in the 5.4-5.99 second mark, it got an extra shot off. If it dies in the 8.1-8.99 second mark, it got an extra shot off. I mean, FFS, this is a 10% attack speed buff, that's fricken huge! The 10% attack buff is not as big as you think. AoE units are all about landing the first shot. If you looked at tanks in TvZ in WoL, unless they were behind a wall or in a entrench position that the opposition couldn't break, their first shot did 60-70% of the damage. Here is an extreme example of the firing rate. Think about it, that is why the widow mine is so good compare to tank. If you want to look at firing rate, the tank is like 1300% faster at only +200% the cost. The tank should be much better, right? zerg units are so fast (especially on creep) that by the time the 2nd shot fires, they are already pretty spread out. The tank in bio/tank and the mines in bio/mine are really only for making the numbers managable for the marines to split then kill, and for targeting banelings in particular. I'm discussing this from a context of a mech army, where you have a lot more tanks. And yeah, the 10% attack buff is huge even in bio/tank. Great players will make great use of them. Show nested quote +Except you are missing the fact that tanks damage has friendly fire. So once enemies are in melee range of your own units, the Terran takes a lot of damage as well. Vthree, if you are arguing that the tank buff isn't a buff because you might kill your own units with a better tank, then I don't know what to tell you, but you've lost perspective.
No, if you read the post that I was quoting. The poster was trying to say that tanks would get an extra shot off and would 'balance' tanks in TvZ. Which is most situations, it isn't true. I am not saying it is not a buff, of course it is.
Second of all, you never mentioned mech in your post and you only said I was looking at it the wrong way. It seems you never read the post I was responding to.
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On September 28 2013 00:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 00:34 rikter wrote:
Glad they got rid of the DT's, but the oracle change is lame. People talking about how its the same speed as the mutalisk seem to be forgetting that the mutas hit at the ten minute mark, while oracles hit at five. By the time the mutas are in play the ebay is up, stim is done, and I can actually catch the mutas. When an oracle shows up, I have no stim, less units, and no plans to build an ebay at 430 or so to have turrets in time.
The oracle isnt used late game because it sucks in that role. The observer provides better scouting, and just about anything else is hardier and more useful.
Widow mine change isnt bad, especially coupled with tank buff. I think Blizz wants to see both units in the bio force vZ, with the mines shifting more to an anti air role while the tanks do better against the ground stuff. An extra shot off per tank makes a huge difference vs lings and banes, so theres balance in TvZ. The mirror is a wash and no one uses tanks and mines vs P anyways, so this is, I think, one of the better balance changes they have made. At least in terms of not fixing one matchup while trashing another. A widow mine comes up before an Oracle. Just learn to count pylons at the main, at X time they should have Y pylons, if not then its a proxy.
I know how to count the pylons, and I am aware that the widow mine can come out before the oracle. The issue is that even if you count the pylons, you still don't know what the proxy will be. Sure, it can be oracle, but it can also be DT's or robo, or a stargate but making voids. Splitting up units to search can be fine, but if he sends his first stalker across the map it can cause problems. The responses to each of these proxies is different. Getting the widow mine out in time for oracles requires you to have made your decision on gas before you can actually confirm the proxy anyways. If planetary nexus wasn't a thing, it might not be such a big deal to open earlier gas, since my attack wouldn't get totally shut down by casting a single spell... but as it stands, I dont feel like I can reliably do enough damage in the face of PNexus to justify stunting my economy, and even just containing them with threat of drop is worthless because toss typically either all-in or sit in their base for the first 12 minutes anyways, so what am I really gaining? This is not even considering that they can make their 1shot amove army off 2 bases.
For what its worth, I am lifetime 55% or greater against T and Z, and 35% against P. Over several thousand games. I think my vT and vZ indicate that I have SOME ability to play the game competently, especially considering that matchmaking tries to keep you at 50%, but I can't beat Toss. I cant fucking stand it when they continue to buff the one goddamn matchup that I can't win in, and do it in such a one sided fashion to boot. I can live with the mine and tank changes, I think they are good for TvZ, and the combined air/mech upgrades is really good for TvT, I was even on board with the hellbat nerf, because hellbats were retarded, but again, that needed to be done because they were breaking the game. But I am so tired of more buffs to toss, especially when the global MU stats they have posted for the last few months have already shown a significant disparity in TvP, in P's favor. Lack of late game oracles isnt breaking TvP, and they are already good enough in the early game, so is it really necessary to fool with them at all?
In conclusion, while most of the proposed changes I am fine with, and think enhance the game, Blizz can seriously fuck off with buffing the goddamn Protoss. They are getting buffs not because they are at some kind of competitive disadvantage, but just to "spice up play". The widowmine change probably needs to happen because they really are a bit much right now...but the only reason they give for the oracle is just wanting to see more late game use (which it isn't even designed for anyways!)
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Keep in mind that these changes are supposed to hit in ..November? They're more experimental, meant to go into effect in the off-season, they will 100% change before going live and they are not purely for balance purposes.
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On September 28 2013 02:57 Grumbels wrote:
Keep in mind that these changes are supposed to hit in ..November? They're more experimental, meant to go into effect in the off-season, they will 100% change before going live and they are not purely for balance purposes.
Personally I think if the changes aren't being made to balance matchups then it isn't really appropriate to make them at all. If the MU is fine as it is competitively, but the variety isn't what you wanted, that to me is a bad reason to go buffing units. Blizz needs to realize that the oracle is suited for early game worker harass, and pretty much nothing else. Its spells aren't good for the lategame, beacause you will have better options both for killing the enemy, scouting the enemy, and detecting cloaked units, so why would you build an oracle. Blizz is all upset about no late game oracles? Maybe if they didn't design a unit with such a stupidly small window of utility, people would actually use them past the 7-8 minute mark. Phoeni are a lot more useful than oracles in that situation, but without the ability to just rape mineral lines at the 5 min mark.
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One thing i've yet to see is to have someone Hallucinate 2 phoenix and send one oracle into a mineral line with just like 1 turret.... really this could be done later in the game and would provide a seroiusly powerful harass option....
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On September 28 2013 01:58 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 01:52 Tsubbi wrote:
not going into specifics as there are so many potential underused units but overall id love if blizzard was willing to test way way bigger changes for the offseason in testmaps in the beginning of the testphase
also i think the most important part in all of this is to integrate a button into the client next to the ranked and unranked buttons to play the testmap against equally skilled players, this would up the testing quality and quantity by at least 9000% Agreed 100%. I would love a test map where they just buff the shit out of underused units such as tanks, hydras, carriers. Just force people into playing completely new styles and then readjust if necessary, instead of slightly encouraging people to do something new and they end up doing exactly the same as before. The game right now is probably the most balanced its been, but its also getting very stale with the same strategies used in every game. Its time to buff the underused things. Old me would have disagreed with this completely, but new me completely agrees. I would have been disgusted that you would suggest we ruin the state of balance, but right now that would probably be the best thing that could be done for this game. We used to pine for perfect balance, but now that there is relatively good state of balance the game is getting very stale, very fast, and it is causing people to get bored. I would love if they tried some out-of-left-field changes on a test map just to see how much they can shake up things. It would be more fun than the current free-3-bases-into-snorefest metagame that is going on.
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On September 28 2013 02:51 rikter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 00:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 28 2013 00:34 rikter wrote:
Glad they got rid of the DT's, but the oracle change is lame. People talking about how its the same speed as the mutalisk seem to be forgetting that the mutas hit at the ten minute mark, while oracles hit at five. By the time the mutas are in play the ebay is up, stim is done, and I can actually catch the mutas. When an oracle shows up, I have no stim, less units, and no plans to build an ebay at 430 or so to have turrets in time.
The oracle isnt used late game because it sucks in that role. The observer provides better scouting, and just about anything else is hardier and more useful.
Widow mine change isnt bad, especially coupled with tank buff. I think Blizz wants to see both units in the bio force vZ, with the mines shifting more to an anti air role while the tanks do better against the ground stuff. An extra shot off per tank makes a huge difference vs lings and banes, so theres balance in TvZ. The mirror is a wash and no one uses tanks and mines vs P anyways, so this is, I think, one of the better balance changes they have made. At least in terms of not fixing one matchup while trashing another. A widow mine comes up before an Oracle. Just learn to count pylons at the main, at X time they should have Y pylons, if not then its a proxy. I know how to count the pylons, and I am aware that the widow mine can come out before the oracle. The issue is that even if you count the pylons, you still don't know what the proxy will be. Sure, it can be oracle, but it can also be DT's or robo, or a stargate but making voids. Splitting up units to search can be fine, but if he sends his first stalker across the map it can cause problems. The responses to each of these proxies is different. Getting the widow mine out in time for oracles requires you to have made your decision on gas before you can actually confirm the proxy anyways. If planetary nexus wasn't a thing, it might not be such a big deal to open earlier gas, since my attack wouldn't get totally shut down by casting a single spell... but as it stands, I dont feel like I can reliably do enough damage in the face of PNexus to justify stunting my economy, and even just containing them with threat of drop is worthless because toss typically either all-in or sit in their base for the first 12 minutes anyways, so what am I really gaining? This is not even considering that they can make their 1shot amove army off 2 bases. For what its worth, I am lifetime 55% or greater against T and Z, and 35% against P. Over several thousand games. I think my vT and vZ indicate that I have SOME ability to play the game competently, especially considering that matchmaking tries to keep you at 50%, but I can't beat Toss. I cant fucking stand it when they continue to buff the one goddamn matchup that I can't win in, and do it in such a one sided fashion to boot. I can live with the mine and tank changes, I think they are good for TvZ, and the combined air/mech upgrades is really good for TvT, I was even on board with the hellbat nerf, because hellbats were retarded, but again, that needed to be done because they were breaking the game. But I am so tired of more buffs to toss, especially when the global MU stats they have posted for the last few months have already shown a significant disparity in TvP, in P's favor. Lack of late game oracles isnt breaking TvP, and they are already good enough in the early game, so is it really necessary to fool with them at all? In conclusion, while most of the proposed changes I am fine with, and think enhance the game, Blizz can seriously fuck off with buffing the goddamn Protoss. They are getting buffs not because they are at some kind of competitive disadvantage, but just to "spice up play". The widowmine change probably needs to happen because they really are a bit much right now...but the only reason they give for the oracle is just wanting to see more late game use (which it isn't even designed for anyways!)
Sounds like you need to take a week or two and practice the shit out of only TvP.
I have your opposite problem, my PvT is atrocious. Last few days I've been playing games against a T friend and it has been helping tremendously. I've readjusted my plan in the matchup and figured some new things out, like drop defense, which is 100% my biggest flaw in PvT. If you just mass ladder all the time, you can get stuck.
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This is just a curiosity question - I was thinking about how Swarm Hosts are really on viable in ZvP but what if you made it so that SH's could attack air but reduce the damage the Locusts actually do. I would be curious to see if this would make something like Swarm Host/Hydra viable vs Terran and Viable ZvZ. That's just spit balling but I'm curious as to what others think.
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I don't know there is a crapton of Terran players that struggle in TvP myself included... I'm 90% winrate in TvT 70% in TvZ and 40% in TvP its just very strange the way protoss can steamroll you if they get the slightest advantage...... I've had GM protoss go Oracle into Mothership rush with teching to tempests...... It just feels like there is so much you can do as protss
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On September 28 2013 04:03 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I don't know there is a crapton of Terran players that struggle in TvP myself included... I'm 90% winrate in TvT 70% in TvZ and 40% in TvP its just very strange the way protoss can steamroll you if they get the slightest advantage...... I've had GM protoss go Oracle into Mothership rush with teching to tempests...... It just feels like there is so much you can do as protss
That's fine, pretty much all terrans except for MMA and ForGG go yolo bomber mode in TvP pretty much because of that.
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On September 28 2013 03:30 Pirfiktshon wrote:
One thing i've yet to see is to have someone Hallucinate 2 phoenix and send one oracle into a mineral line with just like 1 turret.... really this could be done later in the game and would provide a seroiusly powerful harass option....
The Missile Turret is a Detector structure that can see cloaked, burrowed and hallucinated units. Missile Turret
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On September 28 2013 03:30 Pirfiktshon wrote:
One thing i've yet to see is to have someone Hallucinate 2 phoenix and send one oracle into a mineral line with just like 1 turret.... really this could be done later in the game and would provide a seroiusly powerful harass option....
Wouldn't the turret detect the phoenix as hallucinated and target the oracle instead?
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United States7483 Posts
On September 28 2013 03:30 Pirfiktshon wrote:
One thing i've yet to see is to have someone Hallucinate 2 phoenix and send one oracle into a mineral line with just like 1 turret.... really this could be done later in the game and would provide a seroiusly powerful harass option....
That's because the turret ignores hallucinations unless there are no real units around.
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Yea I have vowed to never do the Yolo Pull i feel its admitting defeat in the match up
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On September 28 2013 04:03 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I don't know there is a crapton of Terran players that struggle in TvP myself included... I'm 90% winrate in TvT 70% in TvZ and 40% in TvP its just very strange the way protoss can steamroll you if they get the slightest advantage...... I've had GM protoss go Oracle into Mothership rush with teching to tempests...... It just feels like there is so much you can do as protss
Your statistics don't say anything about the balance though. I sometimes see people post something like: "I'm very good at mirror match-ups (demonstrating skill), but I struggle in TvP, clearly my MMR is lower than it should be because TvP is imbalanced". That's not how the MMR works.
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On September 28 2013 04:15 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 03:30 Pirfiktshon wrote:
One thing i've yet to see is to have someone Hallucinate 2 phoenix and send one oracle into a mineral line with just like 1 turret.... really this could be done later in the game and would provide a seroiusly powerful harass option.... That's because the turret ignores hallucinations unless there are no real units around.
Show's you how much I've played protoss in sc2 I've never made an attempt at this but it just made sense LOL I remember in the BW days we would do this to be able to storm workers on a consistent basis even if someone had like 10 turrets LOL
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EPT
