EPTI just wanted to let the terran know that was posting previously that I also was having trouble and in the same thought that in it being a balanced m/u that protoss shoudln't get random buffs..... this would tip the scales in protoss' favor.....
Updated Balance Test Map - Page 26
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
I just wanted to let the terran know that was posting previously that I also was having trouble and in the same thought that in it being a balanced m/u that protoss shoudln't get random buffs..... this would tip the scales in protoss' favor..... | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
On September 28 2013 04:28 Grumbels wrote: Your statistics don't say anything about the balance though. I sometimes see people post something like: "I'm very good at mirror match-ups (demonstrating skill), but I struggle in TvP, clearly my MMR is lower than it should be because TvP is imbalanced". That's not how the MMR works. My issue is this: I can hang against the other 2 races at a league higher than my current, in many cases with a comp similar to TvP, yet I lose to protoss ranked a league below me. My macro and micro is somehow good enough against everybody else, but not toss? I havent started doing the yolo pull but believe me Im going to start, and I hote my oppponents cry me a fucking river. I used to have options against toss early, now its just herp derp photon overcharrge. I am at a loss at how I can do anything to hurt them before ten minutes, except for a kind of suicidal 888 into proxy fact for mines. I think that while the matchup may be balanced in theory, in practice it takes a lot more for T to overcome Ps deathball than it does for P to use his deathball. | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
On September 28 2013 04:39 rikter wrote: My issue is this: I can hang against the other 2 races at a league higher than my current, in many cases with a comp similar to TvP, yet I lose to protoss ranked a league below me. My macro is somehow good enough against everybody else, but not toss? I havent started doing the yolo pull but believe me Im going to start, and I hote my oppponents cry me a fucking river. I used to have options against toss early, now its just herp derp photon overcharrge. I am at a loss at how I can do anything to hurt them before ten minutes, except for a kind of suicidal 888 into proxy fact for mines. That's clearly your problem and your lack of understanding/execution in TvP, clearly seen by these balloon'ed percentages. I used to have like 30% PvZ back when toss was killin zerg, doesn't mean ZvP was broken. This is likely due to you being an aggressive styled player back when terran could abuse toss early game, you never learned to play mid/late game TvP, and now that toss can defend better, you've lost your crutch and are behind your "current league" in terms of TvP skill. You just have to find a P partner and practice if you want to improve tbh | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
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Jerom
Netherlands588 Posts
On September 28 2013 04:56 Grumbels wrote: Hypothetical: let's assume that TvP is in favor of protoss, it might actually be that TvZ is strongly favored for terran, causing a lot of weaker terran players to get higher rankings and becoming easy fodder for protoss players, while the match-up would be okay if only the players were of equal skill. But that's generally not really how it works in the tournements. I think we're slowly seeing the protoss (slight) dominance being expressed in their tournement results. It could be that metagame changes will fix this seeming imbalance, but maybe they'll have to patch someting in the near future. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
Zerg has scarlett which she is a true beast and this is nothing to dilute the skill of an amazing player but she is a foreigner none the less Then we have Naniwa which has a very high chance of being in Blizzcon this year which again Ditto above ( Just a He instead of a she ) Where is that one Foreign terran that is hitting spotlights in tournaments? You just don't see it..... Why? | ||
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Gullis
Sweden740 Posts
For me who struggles a lot with the tvp matchup (a humble diamond player) it is so frustrating to see blizzard thinking of buffing protoss even more. When I play zerg I don't feel nearly as outmatched against protoss as I do when I play terran (I play about 1/3 of my ranked matches as zerg). I get that diamond league balance has nothing to do with balance at the top level which should be the main focus, but when statistics at the top level also speaks heavily in protoss favor I start to wonder.... | ||
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TurboMaN
Germany925 Posts
Blizzard has often said that they are fine with the higher difficulty of Terran. Korean Terrans are so good because they practice harder and play more hours than foreigners. As a result their mechanics are better and they come closer to the skill ceiling. | ||
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H0i
Netherlands484 Posts
On September 28 2013 05:22 Gullis wrote: Just wondering out of curiosity. Why is everyone calling for terrans nerfs in tvz (which do I agree with) but none in tvp which according to august winrates are more in favor for protoss than what tvz is for terran? For me who struggles a lot with the tvp matchup (a humble diamond player) it is so frustrating to see blizzard thinking of buffing protoss even more. When I play zerg I don't feel nearly as outmatched against protoss as I do when I play terran (I play about 1/3 of my ranked matches as zerg). I get that diamond league balance has nothing to do with balance at the top level which should be the main focus, but when statistics at the top level also speaks heavily in protoss favor I start to wonder.... The buff blizzard has in mind for protoss (oracle one) is quite inconsequential for the WR. If anything it's going to make oracles a bit more solid. Terrans are losing because protoss players manage to defend until they have storm and colossi out, while terrans keep attacking and lose units left and right. The MU is extremely stagnant right now and pretty much all protoss wins look like that, while most terran wins are scv pulls. The whole meta kind of plays into this as well. As a protoss player going for colossi you are very vulnerable to scv pulls if you try to transition into storm at a reasonable time, and if you get enough colossi to defend it you are very vulnerable to mass vikings. Either way, you don't really want to risk being out on the map. So protoss players stay highly defensive and don't go out on the map, until they can do so without being in a difficult spot against either vikings of scv pulls... so until they have storms and colossi out. Templar chargelot style is different and it produces less stale games, but this style seems to be losing popularity, although I don't know why exactly. The point is it's the most stagnant matchup by far and it could really benefit from some huge changes. | ||
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Aiobhill
Germany283 Posts
On September 28 2013 05:42 TurboMaN wrote: Blizzard has often said that they are fine with the higher difficulty of Terran. Could you link that for me please? One link will do, even if they said it 'often'. Cheers. | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
the matchup is godawful in my opinion and if mech could be made playable I think it would be awesome | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On September 28 2013 05:22 Gullis wrote: Just wondering out of curiosity. Why is everyone calling for terrans nerfs in tvz (which do I agree with) but none in tvp which according to august winrates are more in favor for protoss than what tvz is for terran? For me who struggles a lot with the tvp matchup (a humble diamond player) it is so frustrating to see blizzard thinking of buffing protoss even more. When I play zerg I don't feel nearly as outmatched against protoss as I do when I play terran (I play about 1/3 of my ranked matches as zerg). I get that diamond league balance has nothing to do with balance at the top level which should be the main focus, but when statistics at the top level also speaks heavily in protoss favor I start to wonder.... Because despite the winrates, Terrans at the absolute extreme of levels in TvP have been murdering top Protoss deep in major tournaments over the past few months, which is where balance is the most sensitive. It's a really complex issue to nerf Protoss and wrestle back control of TvP winrates, while at the same time not handing the next string of tournaments over to these few Terrans. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments TaeJa is just too OP | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
In general you would imagine the correlation between skill and actual results as something linear with seriously sharp jumps at certain points. That is true for all races. The real problem however the height of the jump. IMO terran has the highest height of that result from skill usage jump, hence if you replace all players with automatons automaton2000 playing Terran would probably only lose to BO losses. On other side protoss has either the lowest height of the jump, either the longest distance between ones (microing chargelots, anyone?). So if you balance it around nearly-perfect level ala TaeJa, you would have to completely redesign game, since it is not something solved by couple of balance patches. The true solution IMO is either give: toss some APM sink, like new oracle. Either buff not-so-skill-dependant options that MMMVG is (yes, mech :D) and make those other options viable if needed. So yeah, blizzard is going into right direction, considering they will not completely remake the game. | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
On September 28 2013 04:43 ffadicted wrote: That's clearly your problem and your lack of understanding/execution in TvP, clearly seen by these balloon'ed percentages. I used to have like 30% PvZ back when toss was killin zerg, doesn't mean ZvP was broken. This is likely due to you being an aggressive styled player back when terran could abuse toss early game, you never learned to play mid/late game TvP, and now that toss can defend better, you've lost your crutch and are behind your "current league" in terms of TvP skill. You just have to find a P partner and practice if you want to improve tbh I actually think the matchup is balanced, but one sides execution is harder. But if the matchup is already balanced, then why does one side continue to get buffed in the name of variety? | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On September 28 2013 06:50 rikter wrote: I actually think the matchup is balanced, but one sides execution is harder. But if the matchup is already balanced, then why does one side continue to get buffed in the name of variety? wtf; they just buffed tanks in the name of variety. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 28 2013 06:06 Aiobhill wrote: Could you link that for me please? One link will do, even if they said it 'often'. Cheers. yeah, I'd be really interested in that too. Or aren't there any and it's just wishful thinking that what you are writing is not just circlejerking? On September 28 2013 06:50 rikter wrote: I actually think the matchup is balanced, but one sides execution is harder. But if the matchup is already balanced, then why does one side continue to get buffed in the name of variety? Because people want to see more Mech play and the only way to make it happen is to buff it. | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
On September 28 2013 06:38 rd wrote: Because despite the winrates, Terrans at the absolute extreme of levels in TvP have been murdering top Protoss deep in major tournaments over the past few months, which is where balance is the most sensitive. It's a really complex issue to nerf Protoss and wrestle back control of TvP winrates, while at the same time not handing the next string of tournaments over to these few Terrans. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments TaeJa is just too OP Dude, I feel you. I love watching P get ripped apart at the highest levels, and any buffs to T would really lopside the matchup in the pro scene...but in most other arenas I truly feel T is behind. Ive been thinking and I believe the best way to balance the MU would be to change the cost of the ghost, fewer mins and more gas. T needs a good gas sink. | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
On September 28 2013 06:51 rd wrote: wtf; they just buffed tanks in the name of variety. No, they buffed tanks in the name of offsetting the widowmine nerf. Its probably a pretty even trade, but the composition requires more control than pure mine. | ||
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