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On September 28 2013 17:48 Zheryn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 17:07 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 16:39 DomeGetta wrote:
LOL - yesss innovation eliminated by soO - based on reverse logic this nerf terran patch (that's not about balance! it's about diversity in play! but it only nerfs 1 race and buffs the other 2! lolol) is looking even more necessary than before... Dimaga owns flash... Nerchiro owns forgg.... soO owns innovation? the "best player in the world" - still waiting to hear from someone about the foreign terrans rolling the korean zergs... oh wait.. Your examples are bad, because of your 3matches one is korean vs korean and one is foreigner vs foreign-training-korean (forgg has been staying in the Millenium house in France since forever). Nevertheless, I'm gonna do the stupid "let's throw out examples though they don't prove anything" with you, just so that you can see it does happen: HeRoMaRinE beat Hyun Lucifron beat Yugioh Sjow beat Life People love to throw out examples that "prove" their own point  "Oh my god Innovation lost a game against a zerg and he's the best player in the world, now he doesn't have 100% win rate, Z imba!" Personally, I will probably have a much harder time in ZvT after the patch. I play a ground-based style which works fine against widow mines, but it feels like tanks will shut that down. In pro games muta/ling/bane is already so dominant, and it feels like these changes will just force zergs into it even more. I would love if roach/hydra, roach/bane, ling/infestor, ling/ultra/bane etc were more viable so we could see some more diversity, but I feel like these changes does the opposite.
I agree these are weird changes. Many people talk about deiversity bun in TvZ mines are good againts ling/bling muta and this is most played composition by Zergs. So nerfing mines will make ling/bling muta even more popular. On other hand tanks are good againts roach/hydra which are barely played and post this change will probably be played even less.
Alos what about TvT, Won't merging upgrades make mech having advantage over bio? I dont see how it helps mech in non mirror matchup.
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On September 28 2013 18:18 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 17:48 Zheryn wrote:On September 28 2013 17:07 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 16:39 DomeGetta wrote:
LOL - yesss innovation eliminated by soO - based on reverse logic this nerf terran patch (that's not about balance! it's about diversity in play! but it only nerfs 1 race and buffs the other 2! lolol) is looking even more necessary than before... Dimaga owns flash... Nerchiro owns forgg.... soO owns innovation? the "best player in the world" - still waiting to hear from someone about the foreign terrans rolling the korean zergs... oh wait.. Your examples are bad, because of your 3matches one is korean vs korean and one is foreigner vs foreign-training-korean (forgg has been staying in the Millenium house in France since forever). Nevertheless, I'm gonna do the stupid "let's throw out examples though they don't prove anything" with you, just so that you can see it does happen: HeRoMaRinE beat Hyun Lucifron beat Yugioh Sjow beat Life People love to throw out examples that "prove" their own point "Oh my god Innovation lost a game against a zerg and he's the best player in the world, now he doesn't have 100% win rate, Z imba!" Personally, I will probably have a much harder time in ZvT after the patch. I play a ground-based style which works fine against widow mines, but it feels like tanks will shut that down. In pro games muta/ling/bane is already so dominant, and it feels like these changes will just force zergs into it even more. I would love if roach/hydra, roach/bane, ling/infestor, ling/ultra/bane etc were more viable so we could see some more diversity, but I feel like these changes does the opposite. I agree these are weird changes. Many people talk about deiversity bun in TvZ mines are good againts ling/bling muta and this is most played composition by Zergs. So nerfing mines will make ling/bling muta even more popular. On other hand tanks are good againts roach/hydra which are barely played and post this change will probably be played even less. Alos what about TvT, Won't merging upgrades make mech having advantage over bio? I dont see how it helps mech in non mirror matchup.
I think the upgrades help turtle Mech and in general more defensive tank/thor+bio Terran styles, with broodlords against zerg and I guess it helps hellbats a bit back into MMMVG compositions. But I don't think it's major either.
The problem I see with TvZ is that mass mutalisk makes bio+mine nearly required. I guess overall it could work out, but as I have repeatetly said, I don't think the mine is a core issue of that matchup lacking diversity.
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On September 28 2013 18:36 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 18:18 keglu wrote:On September 28 2013 17:48 Zheryn wrote:On September 28 2013 17:07 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 16:39 DomeGetta wrote:
LOL - yesss innovation eliminated by soO - based on reverse logic this nerf terran patch (that's not about balance! it's about diversity in play! but it only nerfs 1 race and buffs the other 2! lolol) is looking even more necessary than before... Dimaga owns flash... Nerchiro owns forgg.... soO owns innovation? the "best player in the world" - still waiting to hear from someone about the foreign terrans rolling the korean zergs... oh wait.. Your examples are bad, because of your 3matches one is korean vs korean and one is foreigner vs foreign-training-korean (forgg has been staying in the Millenium house in France since forever). Nevertheless, I'm gonna do the stupid "let's throw out examples though they don't prove anything" with you, just so that you can see it does happen: HeRoMaRinE beat Hyun Lucifron beat Yugioh Sjow beat Life People love to throw out examples that "prove" their own point "Oh my god Innovation lost a game against a zerg and he's the best player in the world, now he doesn't have 100% win rate, Z imba!" Personally, I will probably have a much harder time in ZvT after the patch. I play a ground-based style which works fine against widow mines, but it feels like tanks will shut that down. In pro games muta/ling/bane is already so dominant, and it feels like these changes will just force zergs into it even more. I would love if roach/hydra, roach/bane, ling/infestor, ling/ultra/bane etc were more viable so we could see some more diversity, but I feel like these changes does the opposite. I agree these are weird changes. Many people talk about deiversity bun in TvZ mines are good againts ling/bling muta and this is most played composition by Zergs. So nerfing mines will make ling/bling muta even more popular. On other hand tanks are good againts roach/hydra which are barely played and post this change will probably be played even less. Alos what about TvT, Won't merging upgrades make mech having advantage over bio? I dont see how it helps mech in non mirror matchup. I think the upgrades help turtle Mech and in general more defensive tank/thor+bio Terran styles, with broodlords against zerg and I guess it helps hellbats a bit back into MMMVG compositions. But I don't think it's major either. The problem I see with TvZ is that mass mutalisk makes bio+mine nearly required. I guess overall it could work out, but as I have repeatetly said, I don't think the mine is a core issue of that matchup lacking diversity.
I'd argue the muta is pretty much the core issue of both ZvT and ZvP. T have been able to deal with it, since mines provide such a high burst dmg against them, mutas can't poke much. Then their top usability is ofcourse to provide some AoE, so if zerg goes mass mass blings he can't just roll you over. P has had a lot more problem with mutas since they don't have this high burst dmg, with the regen storm is more like a tickle against muta pokes.
I was always in favour of the muta buff, or atleast more muta play at the cost of the infestor. That being said, it leads to both P and T requiring pretty strong anti-muta units. T has had it while P has been kind of fucked. I don't really see how you can nerf T's anti-muta unit without toning mutas down(and then what HotS changes are really left? they seem to be dieing off one by one).
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On September 28 2013 19:33 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 18:36 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 18:18 keglu wrote:On September 28 2013 17:48 Zheryn wrote:On September 28 2013 17:07 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 16:39 DomeGetta wrote:
LOL - yesss innovation eliminated by soO - based on reverse logic this nerf terran patch (that's not about balance! it's about diversity in play! but it only nerfs 1 race and buffs the other 2! lolol) is looking even more necessary than before... Dimaga owns flash... Nerchiro owns forgg.... soO owns innovation? the "best player in the world" - still waiting to hear from someone about the foreign terrans rolling the korean zergs... oh wait.. Your examples are bad, because of your 3matches one is korean vs korean and one is foreigner vs foreign-training-korean (forgg has been staying in the Millenium house in France since forever). Nevertheless, I'm gonna do the stupid "let's throw out examples though they don't prove anything" with you, just so that you can see it does happen: HeRoMaRinE beat Hyun Lucifron beat Yugioh Sjow beat Life People love to throw out examples that "prove" their own point "Oh my god Innovation lost a game against a zerg and he's the best player in the world, now he doesn't have 100% win rate, Z imba!" Personally, I will probably have a much harder time in ZvT after the patch. I play a ground-based style which works fine against widow mines, but it feels like tanks will shut that down. In pro games muta/ling/bane is already so dominant, and it feels like these changes will just force zergs into it even more. I would love if roach/hydra, roach/bane, ling/infestor, ling/ultra/bane etc were more viable so we could see some more diversity, but I feel like these changes does the opposite. I agree these are weird changes. Many people talk about deiversity bun in TvZ mines are good againts ling/bling muta and this is most played composition by Zergs. So nerfing mines will make ling/bling muta even more popular. On other hand tanks are good againts roach/hydra which are barely played and post this change will probably be played even less. Alos what about TvT, Won't merging upgrades make mech having advantage over bio? I dont see how it helps mech in non mirror matchup. I think the upgrades help turtle Mech and in general more defensive tank/thor+bio Terran styles, with broodlords against zerg and I guess it helps hellbats a bit back into MMMVG compositions. But I don't think it's major either. The problem I see with TvZ is that mass mutalisk makes bio+mine nearly required. I guess overall it could work out, but as I have repeatetly said, I don't think the mine is a core issue of that matchup lacking diversity. I'd argue the muta is pretty much the core issue of both ZvT and ZvP. T have been able to deal with it, since mines provide such a high burst dmg against them, mutas can't poke much. Then their top usability is ofcourse to provide some AoE, so if zerg goes mass mass blings he can't just roll you over. P has had a lot more problem with mutas since they don't have this high burst dmg, with the regen storm is more like a tickle against muta pokes. I was always in favour of the muta buff, or atleast more muta play at the cost of the infestor. That being said, it leads to both P and T requiring pretty strong anti-muta units. T has had it while P has been kind of fucked. I don't really see how you can nerf T's anti-muta unit without toning mutas down(and then what HotS changes are really left? they seem to be dieing off one by one).
wasn't muta buff'd because now pheonix does better against muta with the +1 default range and the speed and regen is to allow zerg to deal with the better medivac drop and mine?
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On September 28 2013 19:42 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 19:33 Zarahtra wrote:On September 28 2013 18:36 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 18:18 keglu wrote:On September 28 2013 17:48 Zheryn wrote:On September 28 2013 17:07 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 16:39 DomeGetta wrote:
LOL - yesss innovation eliminated by soO - based on reverse logic this nerf terran patch (that's not about balance! it's about diversity in play! but it only nerfs 1 race and buffs the other 2! lolol) is looking even more necessary than before... Dimaga owns flash... Nerchiro owns forgg.... soO owns innovation? the "best player in the world" - still waiting to hear from someone about the foreign terrans rolling the korean zergs... oh wait.. Your examples are bad, because of your 3matches one is korean vs korean and one is foreigner vs foreign-training-korean (forgg has been staying in the Millenium house in France since forever). Nevertheless, I'm gonna do the stupid "let's throw out examples though they don't prove anything" with you, just so that you can see it does happen: HeRoMaRinE beat Hyun Lucifron beat Yugioh Sjow beat Life People love to throw out examples that "prove" their own point "Oh my god Innovation lost a game against a zerg and he's the best player in the world, now he doesn't have 100% win rate, Z imba!" Personally, I will probably have a much harder time in ZvT after the patch. I play a ground-based style which works fine against widow mines, but it feels like tanks will shut that down. In pro games muta/ling/bane is already so dominant, and it feels like these changes will just force zergs into it even more. I would love if roach/hydra, roach/bane, ling/infestor, ling/ultra/bane etc were more viable so we could see some more diversity, but I feel like these changes does the opposite. I agree these are weird changes. Many people talk about deiversity bun in TvZ mines are good againts ling/bling muta and this is most played composition by Zergs. So nerfing mines will make ling/bling muta even more popular. On other hand tanks are good againts roach/hydra which are barely played and post this change will probably be played even less. Alos what about TvT, Won't merging upgrades make mech having advantage over bio? I dont see how it helps mech in non mirror matchup. I think the upgrades help turtle Mech and in general more defensive tank/thor+bio Terran styles, with broodlords against zerg and I guess it helps hellbats a bit back into MMMVG compositions. But I don't think it's major either. The problem I see with TvZ is that mass mutalisk makes bio+mine nearly required. I guess overall it could work out, but as I have repeatetly said, I don't think the mine is a core issue of that matchup lacking diversity. I'd argue the muta is pretty much the core issue of both ZvT and ZvP. T have been able to deal with it, since mines provide such a high burst dmg against them, mutas can't poke much. Then their top usability is ofcourse to provide some AoE, so if zerg goes mass mass blings he can't just roll you over. P has had a lot more problem with mutas since they don't have this high burst dmg, with the regen storm is more like a tickle against muta pokes. I was always in favour of the muta buff, or atleast more muta play at the cost of the infestor. That being said, it leads to both P and T requiring pretty strong anti-muta units. T has had it while P has been kind of fucked. I don't really see how you can nerf T's anti-muta unit without toning mutas down(and then what HotS changes are really left? they seem to be dieing off one by one). wasn't muta buff'd because now pheonix does better against muta with the +1 default range and the speed and regen is to allow zerg to deal with the better medivac drop and mine?
Yeah, I mean there were obviously reasons for the change. That being said, phoenix are still a rather lackluster response for P, atleast from what I've seen in pro games. They seem to be only really good as a deterant for muta play, get them early, keep them alive to say "I'm ready for the first batch of mutas you make".
Don't know, if they are thinking of throwing this bombshell that the VM nerf is, I think they should consider toning down the muta regen(the speed isn't really an issue, I'd argue it's good since yeah medivacs have speed boost now).
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On September 28 2013 17:48 Zheryn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 17:07 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 16:39 DomeGetta wrote:
LOL - yesss innovation eliminated by soO - based on reverse logic this nerf terran patch (that's not about balance! it's about diversity in play! but it only nerfs 1 race and buffs the other 2! lolol) is looking even more necessary than before... Dimaga owns flash... Nerchiro owns forgg.... soO owns innovation? the "best player in the world" - still waiting to hear from someone about the foreign terrans rolling the korean zergs... oh wait.. Your examples are bad, because of your 3matches one is korean vs korean and one is foreigner vs foreign-training-korean (forgg has been staying in the Millenium house in France since forever). Nevertheless, I'm gonna do the stupid "let's throw out examples though they don't prove anything" with you, just so that you can see it does happen: HeRoMaRinE beat Hyun Lucifron beat Yugioh Sjow beat Life People love to throw out examples that "prove" their own point "Oh my god Innovation lost a game against a zerg and he's the best player in the world, now he doesn't have 100% win rate, Z imba!" Personally, I will probably have a much harder time in ZvT after the patch. I play a ground-based style which works fine against widow mines, but it feels like tanks will shut that down. In pro games muta/ling/bane is already so dominant, and it feels like these changes will just force zergs into it even more. I would love if roach/hydra, roach/bane, ling/infestor, ling/ultra/bane etc were more viable so we could see some more diversity, but I feel like these changes does the opposite.
The main reason why diversity will always be limited is that pros will always min-max builds. That means that they will try to find the most efficient way to deal with something. So if you buff roach hydra, and people really find it to be stronger, muta ling bane will not be played, so do you need to patch again to make that stronger? (the same applies to all races just taking your example now). What plays against this is if you just hard counter your opponent, but most of the times it boils down to both players saying my composition counters his (starting from T saying marines counter lings, Z says banes counter marines, Tanks/mines counter banes, Mutas, snipe mines/tanks, but marines defend mines/tanks, but zerglings defend my mutas by surrounding, etc etc.
When this happens, imo is when the match up becomes stale, because both players say "I kinda counter him/ this is the best composition against his composition, there is no better" so they keep using it, rather than doing something else, because it may just not be efficient to get to, or is too easily countered by something else.
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On September 28 2013 19:33 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 18:36 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 18:18 keglu wrote:On September 28 2013 17:48 Zheryn wrote:On September 28 2013 17:07 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 16:39 DomeGetta wrote:
LOL - yesss innovation eliminated by soO - based on reverse logic this nerf terran patch (that's not about balance! it's about diversity in play! but it only nerfs 1 race and buffs the other 2! lolol) is looking even more necessary than before... Dimaga owns flash... Nerchiro owns forgg.... soO owns innovation? the "best player in the world" - still waiting to hear from someone about the foreign terrans rolling the korean zergs... oh wait.. Your examples are bad, because of your 3matches one is korean vs korean and one is foreigner vs foreign-training-korean (forgg has been staying in the Millenium house in France since forever). Nevertheless, I'm gonna do the stupid "let's throw out examples though they don't prove anything" with you, just so that you can see it does happen: HeRoMaRinE beat Hyun Lucifron beat Yugioh Sjow beat Life People love to throw out examples that "prove" their own point "Oh my god Innovation lost a game against a zerg and he's the best player in the world, now he doesn't have 100% win rate, Z imba!" Personally, I will probably have a much harder time in ZvT after the patch. I play a ground-based style which works fine against widow mines, but it feels like tanks will shut that down. In pro games muta/ling/bane is already so dominant, and it feels like these changes will just force zergs into it even more. I would love if roach/hydra, roach/bane, ling/infestor, ling/ultra/bane etc were more viable so we could see some more diversity, but I feel like these changes does the opposite. I agree these are weird changes. Many people talk about deiversity bun in TvZ mines are good againts ling/bling muta and this is most played composition by Zergs. So nerfing mines will make ling/bling muta even more popular. On other hand tanks are good againts roach/hydra which are barely played and post this change will probably be played even less. Alos what about TvT, Won't merging upgrades make mech having advantage over bio? I dont see how it helps mech in non mirror matchup. I think the upgrades help turtle Mech and in general more defensive tank/thor+bio Terran styles, with broodlords against zerg and I guess it helps hellbats a bit back into MMMVG compositions. But I don't think it's major either. The problem I see with TvZ is that mass mutalisk makes bio+mine nearly required. I guess overall it could work out, but as I have repeatetly said, I don't think the mine is a core issue of that matchup lacking diversity. I'd argue the muta is pretty much the core issue of both ZvT and ZvP. T have been able to deal with it, since mines provide such a high burst dmg against them, mutas can't poke much. Then their top usability is ofcourse to provide some AoE, so if zerg goes mass mass blings he can't just roll you over. P has had a lot more problem with mutas since they don't have this high burst dmg, with the regen storm is more like a tickle against muta pokes. I was always in favour of the muta buff, or atleast more muta play at the cost of the infestor. That being said, it leads to both P and T requiring pretty strong anti-muta units. T has had it while P has been kind of fucked. I don't really see how you can nerf T's anti-muta unit without toning mutas down(and then what HotS changes are really left? they seem to be dieing off one by one).
P has problems with Muta? News to me...maybe if it goes unscouted, but Phoenix + blink + storm is like, way more than enough to deal with Mutas.
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On September 28 2013 19:47 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 19:42 ETisME wrote:On September 28 2013 19:33 Zarahtra wrote:On September 28 2013 18:36 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 18:18 keglu wrote:On September 28 2013 17:48 Zheryn wrote:On September 28 2013 17:07 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 16:39 DomeGetta wrote:
LOL - yesss innovation eliminated by soO - based on reverse logic this nerf terran patch (that's not about balance! it's about diversity in play! but it only nerfs 1 race and buffs the other 2! lolol) is looking even more necessary than before... Dimaga owns flash... Nerchiro owns forgg.... soO owns innovation? the "best player in the world" - still waiting to hear from someone about the foreign terrans rolling the korean zergs... oh wait.. Your examples are bad, because of your 3matches one is korean vs korean and one is foreigner vs foreign-training-korean (forgg has been staying in the Millenium house in France since forever). Nevertheless, I'm gonna do the stupid "let's throw out examples though they don't prove anything" with you, just so that you can see it does happen: HeRoMaRinE beat Hyun Lucifron beat Yugioh Sjow beat Life People love to throw out examples that "prove" their own point "Oh my god Innovation lost a game against a zerg and he's the best player in the world, now he doesn't have 100% win rate, Z imba!" Personally, I will probably have a much harder time in ZvT after the patch. I play a ground-based style which works fine against widow mines, but it feels like tanks will shut that down. In pro games muta/ling/bane is already so dominant, and it feels like these changes will just force zergs into it even more. I would love if roach/hydra, roach/bane, ling/infestor, ling/ultra/bane etc were more viable so we could see some more diversity, but I feel like these changes does the opposite. I agree these are weird changes. Many people talk about deiversity bun in TvZ mines are good againts ling/bling muta and this is most played composition by Zergs. So nerfing mines will make ling/bling muta even more popular. On other hand tanks are good againts roach/hydra which are barely played and post this change will probably be played even less. Alos what about TvT, Won't merging upgrades make mech having advantage over bio? I dont see how it helps mech in non mirror matchup. I think the upgrades help turtle Mech and in general more defensive tank/thor+bio Terran styles, with broodlords against zerg and I guess it helps hellbats a bit back into MMMVG compositions. But I don't think it's major either. The problem I see with TvZ is that mass mutalisk makes bio+mine nearly required. I guess overall it could work out, but as I have repeatetly said, I don't think the mine is a core issue of that matchup lacking diversity. I'd argue the muta is pretty much the core issue of both ZvT and ZvP. T have been able to deal with it, since mines provide such a high burst dmg against them, mutas can't poke much. Then their top usability is ofcourse to provide some AoE, so if zerg goes mass mass blings he can't just roll you over. P has had a lot more problem with mutas since they don't have this high burst dmg, with the regen storm is more like a tickle against muta pokes. I was always in favour of the muta buff, or atleast more muta play at the cost of the infestor. That being said, it leads to both P and T requiring pretty strong anti-muta units. T has had it while P has been kind of fucked. I don't really see how you can nerf T's anti-muta unit without toning mutas down(and then what HotS changes are really left? they seem to be dieing off one by one). wasn't muta buff'd because now pheonix does better against muta with the +1 default range and the speed and regen is to allow zerg to deal with the better medivac drop and mine? Yeah, I mean there were obviously reasons for the change. That being said, phoenix are still a rather lackluster response for P, atleast from what I've seen in pro games. They seem to be only really good as a deterant for muta play, get them early, keep them alive to say "I'm ready for the first batch of mutas you make". Don't know, if they are thinking of throwing this bombshell that the VM nerf is, I think they should consider toning down the muta regen(the speed isn't really an issue, I'd argue it's good since yeah medivacs have speed boost now).
Medivac. the root of all evil! I don't know why they implemented just for 'fun'.
should have buff something else
I don't mind mutas getting nerfed if medivac boost get nerfed/canceled
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On September 28 2013 19:33 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 18:36 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 18:18 keglu wrote:On September 28 2013 17:48 Zheryn wrote:On September 28 2013 17:07 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 16:39 DomeGetta wrote:
LOL - yesss innovation eliminated by soO - based on reverse logic this nerf terran patch (that's not about balance! it's about diversity in play! but it only nerfs 1 race and buffs the other 2! lolol) is looking even more necessary than before... Dimaga owns flash... Nerchiro owns forgg.... soO owns innovation? the "best player in the world" - still waiting to hear from someone about the foreign terrans rolling the korean zergs... oh wait.. Your examples are bad, because of your 3matches one is korean vs korean and one is foreigner vs foreign-training-korean (forgg has been staying in the Millenium house in France since forever). Nevertheless, I'm gonna do the stupid "let's throw out examples though they don't prove anything" with you, just so that you can see it does happen: HeRoMaRinE beat Hyun Lucifron beat Yugioh Sjow beat Life People love to throw out examples that "prove" their own point "Oh my god Innovation lost a game against a zerg and he's the best player in the world, now he doesn't have 100% win rate, Z imba!" Personally, I will probably have a much harder time in ZvT after the patch. I play a ground-based style which works fine against widow mines, but it feels like tanks will shut that down. In pro games muta/ling/bane is already so dominant, and it feels like these changes will just force zergs into it even more. I would love if roach/hydra, roach/bane, ling/infestor, ling/ultra/bane etc were more viable so we could see some more diversity, but I feel like these changes does the opposite. I agree these are weird changes. Many people talk about deiversity bun in TvZ mines are good againts ling/bling muta and this is most played composition by Zergs. So nerfing mines will make ling/bling muta even more popular. On other hand tanks are good againts roach/hydra which are barely played and post this change will probably be played even less. Alos what about TvT, Won't merging upgrades make mech having advantage over bio? I dont see how it helps mech in non mirror matchup. I think the upgrades help turtle Mech and in general more defensive tank/thor+bio Terran styles, with broodlords against zerg and I guess it helps hellbats a bit back into MMMVG compositions. But I don't think it's major either. The problem I see with TvZ is that mass mutalisk makes bio+mine nearly required. I guess overall it could work out, but as I have repeatetly said, I don't think the mine is a core issue of that matchup lacking diversity. I'd argue the muta is pretty much the core issue of both ZvT and ZvP. T have been able to deal with it, since mines provide such a high burst dmg against them, mutas can't poke much. Then their top usability is ofcourse to provide some AoE, so if zerg goes mass mass blings he can't just roll you over. P has had a lot more problem with mutas since they don't have this high burst dmg, with the regen storm is more like a tickle against muta pokes. I was always in favour of the muta buff, or atleast more muta play at the cost of the infestor. That being said, it leads to both P and T requiring pretty strong anti-muta units. T has had it while P has been kind of fucked. I don't really see how you can nerf T's anti-muta unit without toning mutas down(and then what HotS changes are really left? they seem to be dieing off one by one).
I'd be fine with mutalisks in themselves and especially Terran can combat them very well, and against Protoss, mutalisks are the only reason why you can be aggressive vs Protoss without mass swarm hosts. Without them every Protoss could just go for some robo/stargate turtle play and I really don't want to see double robo as the standard midgame of any matchup.
Thing is, they are problematic in TvZ, due to the Terran having to trade and never actually building anything of worth. Which means that there often comes the point in the lategame where there are 3000/3000 or more worth in mutas, against a Terran whose army is still of the same quality that it was 10mins ago. And though the zerg combat power hasn't increased - having 1mutalisk instead of some ling/bling for the same cost/supply doesn't make you stronger in fights - the quality/utility of mutalisks just starts to shine through. (mostly in terms of terran not getting a new mining base in those situations)
Terran just lacks the same quality in terms of units in the lategame, though having the raw power. What Terran needs is a transition/build up similar to the zerg units qualitiwise. And that must simply mean that the game needs to be balanced around higher tier units of terran, if we don't want the matchup to play out the way it does these days, every game.
The excessive mineplay that we see these days is first and foremost a problematic because there is no alternative to it for Terran - and thuse the zerg counterstrategies must not be capable of shutting it down if they prepare for it.
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On September 28 2013 19:58 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 19:33 Zarahtra wrote:On September 28 2013 18:36 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 18:18 keglu wrote:On September 28 2013 17:48 Zheryn wrote:On September 28 2013 17:07 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 16:39 DomeGetta wrote:
LOL - yesss innovation eliminated by soO - based on reverse logic this nerf terran patch (that's not about balance! it's about diversity in play! but it only nerfs 1 race and buffs the other 2! lolol) is looking even more necessary than before... Dimaga owns flash... Nerchiro owns forgg.... soO owns innovation? the "best player in the world" - still waiting to hear from someone about the foreign terrans rolling the korean zergs... oh wait.. Your examples are bad, because of your 3matches one is korean vs korean and one is foreigner vs foreign-training-korean (forgg has been staying in the Millenium house in France since forever). Nevertheless, I'm gonna do the stupid "let's throw out examples though they don't prove anything" with you, just so that you can see it does happen: HeRoMaRinE beat Hyun Lucifron beat Yugioh Sjow beat Life People love to throw out examples that "prove" their own point "Oh my god Innovation lost a game against a zerg and he's the best player in the world, now he doesn't have 100% win rate, Z imba!" Personally, I will probably have a much harder time in ZvT after the patch. I play a ground-based style which works fine against widow mines, but it feels like tanks will shut that down. In pro games muta/ling/bane is already so dominant, and it feels like these changes will just force zergs into it even more. I would love if roach/hydra, roach/bane, ling/infestor, ling/ultra/bane etc were more viable so we could see some more diversity, but I feel like these changes does the opposite. I agree these are weird changes. Many people talk about deiversity bun in TvZ mines are good againts ling/bling muta and this is most played composition by Zergs. So nerfing mines will make ling/bling muta even more popular. On other hand tanks are good againts roach/hydra which are barely played and post this change will probably be played even less. Alos what about TvT, Won't merging upgrades make mech having advantage over bio? I dont see how it helps mech in non mirror matchup. I think the upgrades help turtle Mech and in general more defensive tank/thor+bio Terran styles, with broodlords against zerg and I guess it helps hellbats a bit back into MMMVG compositions. But I don't think it's major either. The problem I see with TvZ is that mass mutalisk makes bio+mine nearly required. I guess overall it could work out, but as I have repeatetly said, I don't think the mine is a core issue of that matchup lacking diversity. I'd argue the muta is pretty much the core issue of both ZvT and ZvP. T have been able to deal with it, since mines provide such a high burst dmg against them, mutas can't poke much. Then their top usability is ofcourse to provide some AoE, so if zerg goes mass mass blings he can't just roll you over. P has had a lot more problem with mutas since they don't have this high burst dmg, with the regen storm is more like a tickle against muta pokes. I was always in favour of the muta buff, or atleast more muta play at the cost of the infestor. That being said, it leads to both P and T requiring pretty strong anti-muta units. T has had it while P has been kind of fucked. I don't really see how you can nerf T's anti-muta unit without toning mutas down(and then what HotS changes are really left? they seem to be dieing off one by one). P has problems with Muta? News to me...maybe if it goes unscouted, but Phoenix + blink + storm is like, way more than enough to deal with Mutas.
It is not really a problem with opening muta, but much more with a late game muta switch, for example when zerg was on roach hydra or swarm host and protoss had a collossus based army (no phoenix basically), then 20-30 mutas just destroy stalkers, so you can't trade with stalkers and storm is usually just not there (just seems to be the pattern) or is easily dodged. But even then protosses are adjusting by bliundly building lots of phoenix when it goes late. But yeah it's mostly late game tech switches, but even zerg has difficulty with those .
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On September 28 2013 19:58 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 19:33 Zarahtra wrote:On September 28 2013 18:36 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 18:18 keglu wrote:On September 28 2013 17:48 Zheryn wrote:On September 28 2013 17:07 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 16:39 DomeGetta wrote:
LOL - yesss innovation eliminated by soO - based on reverse logic this nerf terran patch (that's not about balance! it's about diversity in play! but it only nerfs 1 race and buffs the other 2! lolol) is looking even more necessary than before... Dimaga owns flash... Nerchiro owns forgg.... soO owns innovation? the "best player in the world" - still waiting to hear from someone about the foreign terrans rolling the korean zergs... oh wait.. Your examples are bad, because of your 3matches one is korean vs korean and one is foreigner vs foreign-training-korean (forgg has been staying in the Millenium house in France since forever). Nevertheless, I'm gonna do the stupid "let's throw out examples though they don't prove anything" with you, just so that you can see it does happen: HeRoMaRinE beat Hyun Lucifron beat Yugioh Sjow beat Life People love to throw out examples that "prove" their own point "Oh my god Innovation lost a game against a zerg and he's the best player in the world, now he doesn't have 100% win rate, Z imba!" Personally, I will probably have a much harder time in ZvT after the patch. I play a ground-based style which works fine against widow mines, but it feels like tanks will shut that down. In pro games muta/ling/bane is already so dominant, and it feels like these changes will just force zergs into it even more. I would love if roach/hydra, roach/bane, ling/infestor, ling/ultra/bane etc were more viable so we could see some more diversity, but I feel like these changes does the opposite. I agree these are weird changes. Many people talk about deiversity bun in TvZ mines are good againts ling/bling muta and this is most played composition by Zergs. So nerfing mines will make ling/bling muta even more popular. On other hand tanks are good againts roach/hydra which are barely played and post this change will probably be played even less. Alos what about TvT, Won't merging upgrades make mech having advantage over bio? I dont see how it helps mech in non mirror matchup. I think the upgrades help turtle Mech and in general more defensive tank/thor+bio Terran styles, with broodlords against zerg and I guess it helps hellbats a bit back into MMMVG compositions. But I don't think it's major either. The problem I see with TvZ is that mass mutalisk makes bio+mine nearly required. I guess overall it could work out, but as I have repeatetly said, I don't think the mine is a core issue of that matchup lacking diversity. I'd argue the muta is pretty much the core issue of both ZvT and ZvP. T have been able to deal with it, since mines provide such a high burst dmg against them, mutas can't poke much. Then their top usability is ofcourse to provide some AoE, so if zerg goes mass mass blings he can't just roll you over. P has had a lot more problem with mutas since they don't have this high burst dmg, with the regen storm is more like a tickle against muta pokes. I was always in favour of the muta buff, or atleast more muta play at the cost of the infestor. That being said, it leads to both P and T requiring pretty strong anti-muta units. T has had it while P has been kind of fucked. I don't really see how you can nerf T's anti-muta unit without toning mutas down(and then what HotS changes are really left? they seem to be dieing off one by one). P has problems with Muta? News to me...maybe if it goes unscouted, but Phoenix + blink + storm is like, way more than enough to deal with Mutas.
Well I've atleast seen pros have huge issues with it, even if scouted. The problem isn't the engagement, mutas suck in engagements, but with some maps P can't be everywhere at once and mutas can just hammer on where the P isn't. Also generally you will not have all 3 tech options availeble when the mutas are starting to hurt. You will have phoenix + blink or phoenix + hts(don't think you even have storm out yet). P can deal with it if they can safely get to the perfect combo, but at the same time they pretty much require 3 bases for that combo, so that also leaves P open to harass. Again though, this is only my take on pro games. There is also the tech switch, but previous poster talked about that, no need to recite him.
On September 28 2013 20:03 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 19:33 Zarahtra wrote:On September 28 2013 18:36 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 18:18 keglu wrote:On September 28 2013 17:48 Zheryn wrote:On September 28 2013 17:07 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 16:39 DomeGetta wrote:
LOL - yesss innovation eliminated by soO - based on reverse logic this nerf terran patch (that's not about balance! it's about diversity in play! but it only nerfs 1 race and buffs the other 2! lolol) is looking even more necessary than before... Dimaga owns flash... Nerchiro owns forgg.... soO owns innovation? the "best player in the world" - still waiting to hear from someone about the foreign terrans rolling the korean zergs... oh wait.. Your examples are bad, because of your 3matches one is korean vs korean and one is foreigner vs foreign-training-korean (forgg has been staying in the Millenium house in France since forever). Nevertheless, I'm gonna do the stupid "let's throw out examples though they don't prove anything" with you, just so that you can see it does happen: HeRoMaRinE beat Hyun Lucifron beat Yugioh Sjow beat Life People love to throw out examples that "prove" their own point "Oh my god Innovation lost a game against a zerg and he's the best player in the world, now he doesn't have 100% win rate, Z imba!" Personally, I will probably have a much harder time in ZvT after the patch. I play a ground-based style which works fine against widow mines, but it feels like tanks will shut that down. In pro games muta/ling/bane is already so dominant, and it feels like these changes will just force zergs into it even more. I would love if roach/hydra, roach/bane, ling/infestor, ling/ultra/bane etc were more viable so we could see some more diversity, but I feel like these changes does the opposite. I agree these are weird changes. Many people talk about deiversity bun in TvZ mines are good againts ling/bling muta and this is most played composition by Zergs. So nerfing mines will make ling/bling muta even more popular. On other hand tanks are good againts roach/hydra which are barely played and post this change will probably be played even less. Alos what about TvT, Won't merging upgrades make mech having advantage over bio? I dont see how it helps mech in non mirror matchup. I think the upgrades help turtle Mech and in general more defensive tank/thor+bio Terran styles, with broodlords against zerg and I guess it helps hellbats a bit back into MMMVG compositions. But I don't think it's major either. The problem I see with TvZ is that mass mutalisk makes bio+mine nearly required. I guess overall it could work out, but as I have repeatetly said, I don't think the mine is a core issue of that matchup lacking diversity. I'd argue the muta is pretty much the core issue of both ZvT and ZvP. T have been able to deal with it, since mines provide such a high burst dmg against them, mutas can't poke much. Then their top usability is ofcourse to provide some AoE, so if zerg goes mass mass blings he can't just roll you over. P has had a lot more problem with mutas since they don't have this high burst dmg, with the regen storm is more like a tickle against muta pokes. I was always in favour of the muta buff, or atleast more muta play at the cost of the infestor. That being said, it leads to both P and T requiring pretty strong anti-muta units. T has had it while P has been kind of fucked. I don't really see how you can nerf T's anti-muta unit without toning mutas down(and then what HotS changes are really left? they seem to be dieing off one by one). I'd be fine with mutalisks in themselves and especially Terran can combat them very well, and against Protoss, mutalisks are the only reason why you can be aggressive vs Protoss without mass swarm hosts. Without them every Protoss could just go for some robo/stargate turtle play and I really don't want to see double robo as the standard midgame of any matchup. Thing is, they are problematic in TvZ, due to the Terran having to trade and never actually building anything of worth. Which means that there often comes the point in the lategame where there are 3000/3000 or more worth in mutas, against a Terran whose army is still of the same quality that it was 10mins ago. And though the zerg combat power hasn't increased - having 1mutalisk instead of some ling/bling for the same cost/supply doesn't make you stronger in fights - the quality/utility of mutalisks just starts to shine through. (mostly in terms of terran not getting a new mining base in those situations) Terran just lacks the same quality in terms of units in the lategame, though having the raw power. What Terran needs is a transition/build up similar to the zerg units qualitiwise. And that must simply mean that the game needs to be balanced around higher tier units of terran, if we don't want the matchup to play out the way it does these days, every game. The excessive mineplay that we see these days is first and foremost a problematic because there is no alternative to it for Terran - and thuse the zerg counterstrategies must not be capable of shutting it down if they prepare for it.
Don't get me wrong, I do agree for the most part. That being said, I think we would be dreaming if we expect Blizz to do such ground breaking changes as have T3 T units better than T1.
I don't know, I personally always loved TvZ before the infestor era in WoL and would like the MU to go closer to it. marine tank vs ling bling muta into infestor BL. It was a war of attrition, such as I suppose TvZ is now, but right now the engagements are a clusterfuck of "do the wms blow up the T units or the Z units" while with tanks you knew roughly what you'd get for your buck. It was also a lot more of a strategy game rather than just "pile on the pressure". That still didn't require high tech T units(tank isn't much more high tech than mines, though I do suppose it makes gas geysers a bit more valueble, rather than just skipping them on 3rd/4th).
But yeah, the changes to the tank won't fix their issues in both TvZ and TvP. Ofcourse they will be stronger, but the core issue of why the tank sucks is still going to be stronger mutas require a more direct answer/they are more open to snipes with stronger mutas and vipers counter them to much(aswell as possibly ultra play, it's hard to say without more tank games that gets to lategame on even grounds). Then tanks in TvP have a huge combination of issues which IAS hardly touches on(with that said, tanks can work, though it is more as a sniper for hts/colossi so hellbats can reign supreme).
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As a master terran player, this is what I can say about the balance :
For the terran
- the air and ground combined upgrades don't help really a lot imo since the air terran is not as powerful as sky air protoss army and in late game very easy to counter with sky protoss and templars with feedback on banshees bcs ravens or mass hydras corruptors for the zerg player.
- The fastest attack period for the tanks is imo useless. All protoss units are tank hard counter ( especially imos of course ) so that s pretty useless to use them in this matchup and vs zerg that s absolutely not as effective as widow mines.
- Widow mines : I think the first previous decrease from 1.75 to 1.1 was really insane but even 1.25 is quite very low.
First it s almost impossible to split well the widow mines and burrow them, to split tanks and siege them and to split bio and hit and run ( i am talking of course in tvz matchup ). The micro is almost impossible and that s the same pb than in wol if you are catched during the trip from your base to zerg base you lose.
And with less mines zerg are doing more mutas and the siege tanks are rapped. And I am not talking about vipers.....
The only use of the siege tank is of course in tvt, 111 vs toss but pretty useless nowadays and vs zerg only one or two to avoid violet push in early game.
That s impossible to use them better than that and the 2 buffs are imo useless and the widow mine is catastrophic.
For protoss :
I think that s very good they forgot the dark templar movement upgrade since that would be impossible to kill them with scan and we will be able to build defense turrets EVERYWHERE. And with this fastness I am sure they could go out the range of the turrets before the bio can kill them.
For the oracle the new upgrade are good cuz the original gaz cost decrease would have favoured too strong all in.
But I dont know exactly what they have to use for oracles I am not protoss.
But I would want to say if they are too fast they couldn't be killed by vikings at all.
Zerg :
I find roaches pretty strong I dont know what exactly that could change. I would say zerg players could me way more agressive with them and avoid force field better so that could be a pb for protoss imo.
As terran because we dont use mech anymore that s not a pb with bio but imo that s contradictory to the way to developp mech play since faster burrowed roaches would rapped tanks.
But I am not zerg too
To conclude as a terran player i am only sure about the terran changes :
- Tank period increased : useless
- Mech/air combined upgrade : useless
- Widow mines nerf : very very bad
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On September 28 2013 20:43 bObA wrote:
As a master terran player, this is what I can say about the balance :
For the terran
- the air and ground combined upgrades don't help really a lot imo since the air terran is not as powerful as sky air protoss army and in late game very easy to counter with sky protoss and templars with feedback on banshees bcs ravens or mass hydras corruptors for the zerg player.
- The fastest attack period for the tanks is imo useless. All protoss units are tank hard counter ( especially imos of course ) so that s pretty useless to use them in this matchup and vs zerg that s absolutely not as effective as widow mines.
- Widow mines : I think the first previous decrease from 1.75 to 1.1 was really insane but even 1.25 is quite very low.
First it s almost impossible to split well the widow mines and burrow them, to split tanks and siege them and to split bio and hit and run ( i am talking of course in tvz matchup ). The micro is almost impossible and that s the same pb than in wol if you are catched during the trip from your base to zerg base you lose.
And with less mines zerg are doing more mutas and the siege tanks are rapped. And I am not talking about vipers.....
The only use of the siege tank is of course in tvt, 111 vs toss but pretty useless nowadays and vs zerg only one or two to avoid violet push in early game.
That s impossible to use them better than that and the 2 buffs are imo useless and the widow mine is catastrophic.
For protoss :
I think that s very good they forgot the dark templar movement upgrade since that would be impossible to kill them with scan and we will be able to build defense turrets EVERYWHERE. And with this fastness I am sure they could go out the range of the turrets before the bio can kill them.
For the oracle the new upgrade are good cuz the original gaz cost decrease would have favoured too strong all in.
But I dont know exactly what they have to use for oracles I am not protoss.
But I would want to say if they are too fast they couldn't be killed by vikings at all.
Zerg :
I find roaches pretty strong I dont know what exactly that could change. I would say zerg players could me way more agressive with them and avoid force field better so that could be a pb for protoss imo.
As terran because we dont use mech anymore that s not a pb with bio but imo that s contradictory to the way to developp mech play since faster burrowed roaches would rapped tanks.
But I am not zerg too
To conclude as a terran player i am only sure about the terran changes :
- Tank period increased : useless
- Mech/air combined upgrade : useless
- Widow mines nerf : very very bad
well, I disagree that widow mine nerf is very very bad (because without that nerf, zergs will always face with 4M)
mutas tends to clumb up very easily (and many zergs players intentionally do that to get maximum dmg), and will get hurt significantly if not micro'd.
Bu true that mutas can be a great threat and the only viable Anti muta is marine and mine I guess. I hope they will rework thor more.
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Yeah, the muta switch is stupidly powerful in ZvP with undying, rapid-healing, zombie mutas.
"Good job building those immortals so you didn't die to my Ultralisks. Now have fun with those left over immortals/Zealots/few Archons against 40 mutas I'm building at once from inconspicuous looking eggs. Hey, maybe there are more Ultras and Lings and infestors in those eggs. No, actually it's 40 mutas. GG."
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On September 28 2013 05:22 Gullis wrote:
Just wondering out of curiosity. Why is everyone calling for terrans nerfs in tvz (which do I agree with) but none in tvp which according to august winrates are more in favor for protoss than what tvz is for terran?
For me who struggles a lot with the tvp matchup (a humble diamond player) it is so frustrating to see blizzard thinking of buffing protoss even more. When I play zerg I don't feel nearly as outmatched against protoss as I do when I play terran (I play about 1/3 of my ranked matches as zerg). I get that diamond league balance has nothing to do with balance at the top level which should be the main focus, but when statistics at the top level also speaks heavily in protoss favor I start to wonder....
Yeah, I am a little surprised there has been so much focus on TvZ nerfs. Like...I agree mines are completely silly, and that it's nearly impossible for z to trade with them cost effectively. (Have a friend build nothing but mines, including microing them to run up to units and burrow if appropriate, and macroing out more mines at home, and then try to kill the minefield as zerg. I find it pretty hard with most unit compositions--brood lords are the only unit that really feels like it counters mines).
But if you look at what the pro zergs are saying...I haven't seen any of them complaining about Terran. Scarlett feels Terran is fine, and says Protoss is the problem. Hyun says Terran is fine and Protoss is the problem. The NA zerg cabal (Suppy, Goswser, Kane, henry, etc) think Terran is fine and Protoss is the problem. I've seen pros critiquing the metagame (someone said that ZvT is dull to watch right now because it was always the same composition--MC or something? I forget who said it) and that's a fair criticism, and reason to nerf mines, but not really a balance issue.
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On September 28 2013 21:10 SsDrKosS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 20:43 bObA wrote:
As a master terran player, this is what I can say about the balance :
For the terran
- the air and ground combined upgrades don't help really a lot imo since the air terran is not as powerful as sky air protoss army and in late game very easy to counter with sky protoss and templars with feedback on banshees bcs ravens or mass hydras corruptors for the zerg player.
- The fastest attack period for the tanks is imo useless. All protoss units are tank hard counter ( especially imos of course ) so that s pretty useless to use them in this matchup and vs zerg that s absolutely not as effective as widow mines.
- Widow mines : I think the first previous decrease from 1.75 to 1.1 was really insane but even 1.25 is quite very low.
First it s almost impossible to split well the widow mines and burrow them, to split tanks and siege them and to split bio and hit and run ( i am talking of course in tvz matchup ). The micro is almost impossible and that s the same pb than in wol if you are catched during the trip from your base to zerg base you lose.
And with less mines zerg are doing more mutas and the siege tanks are rapped. And I am not talking about vipers.....
The only use of the siege tank is of course in tvt, 111 vs toss but pretty useless nowadays and vs zerg only one or two to avoid violet push in early game.
That s impossible to use them better than that and the 2 buffs are imo useless and the widow mine is catastrophic.
For protoss :
I think that s very good they forgot the dark templar movement upgrade since that would be impossible to kill them with scan and we will be able to build defense turrets EVERYWHERE. And with this fastness I am sure they could go out the range of the turrets before the bio can kill them.
For the oracle the new upgrade are good cuz the original gaz cost decrease would have favoured too strong all in.
But I dont know exactly what they have to use for oracles I am not protoss.
But I would want to say if they are too fast they couldn't be killed by vikings at all.
Zerg :
I find roaches pretty strong I dont know what exactly that could change. I would say zerg players could me way more agressive with them and avoid force field better so that could be a pb for protoss imo.
As terran because we dont use mech anymore that s not a pb with bio but imo that s contradictory to the way to developp mech play since faster burrowed roaches would rapped tanks.
But I am not zerg too
To conclude as a terran player i am only sure about the terran changes :
- Tank period increased : useless
- Mech/air combined upgrade : useless
- Widow mines nerf : very very bad well, I disagree that widow mine nerf is very very bad (because without that nerf, zergs will always face with 4M) mutas tends to clumb up very easily (and many zergs players intentionally do that to get maximum dmg), and will get hurt significantly if not micro'd.
Wait widow mines would now be too good vs mutas?
Anyway the issue is that blizzard does what you want: Remove 4M as the dominant strat. It isn't a nerf to make it a bit worse, it is a nerf to make it go away.
Which would be fine, if there was an alternative strat. But there simply isn't an alternative until there will be some major nerfs/changes to zerg.
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Current Grandmaster stats
KR
Teran 23.74% (47 Users)
Zerg 35.35% (70 Users)
Protoss 40.91% (81 Users)
NA
Terran 18.50% (37 Users)
Zerg 34.50% (69 Users)
Protoss 45.50% (91 Users)
EU
Terran 21.61% (43 Users)
Zerg 36.18% (72 Users)
Protoss 42.21% (84 Users)
Although you can't directly see balance indicators here, there is a clear trend that most people play Protoss on the highest level compared to the other races.
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Is the balance test map up yet? I dont know where to look for it
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On September 28 2013 22:27 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 21:10 SsDrKosS wrote:On September 28 2013 20:43 bObA wrote:
As a master terran player, this is what I can say about the balance :
For the terran
- the air and ground combined upgrades don't help really a lot imo since the air terran is not as powerful as sky air protoss army and in late game very easy to counter with sky protoss and templars with feedback on banshees bcs ravens or mass hydras corruptors for the zerg player.
- The fastest attack period for the tanks is imo useless. All protoss units are tank hard counter ( especially imos of course ) so that s pretty useless to use them in this matchup and vs zerg that s absolutely not as effective as widow mines.
- Widow mines : I think the first previous decrease from 1.75 to 1.1 was really insane but even 1.25 is quite very low.
First it s almost impossible to split well the widow mines and burrow them, to split tanks and siege them and to split bio and hit and run ( i am talking of course in tvz matchup ). The micro is almost impossible and that s the same pb than in wol if you are catched during the trip from your base to zerg base you lose.
And with less mines zerg are doing more mutas and the siege tanks are rapped. And I am not talking about vipers.....
The only use of the siege tank is of course in tvt, 111 vs toss but pretty useless nowadays and vs zerg only one or two to avoid violet push in early game.
That s impossible to use them better than that and the 2 buffs are imo useless and the widow mine is catastrophic.
For protoss :
I think that s very good they forgot the dark templar movement upgrade since that would be impossible to kill them with scan and we will be able to build defense turrets EVERYWHERE. And with this fastness I am sure they could go out the range of the turrets before the bio can kill them.
For the oracle the new upgrade are good cuz the original gaz cost decrease would have favoured too strong all in.
But I dont know exactly what they have to use for oracles I am not protoss.
But I would want to say if they are too fast they couldn't be killed by vikings at all.
Zerg :
I find roaches pretty strong I dont know what exactly that could change. I would say zerg players could me way more agressive with them and avoid force field better so that could be a pb for protoss imo.
As terran because we dont use mech anymore that s not a pb with bio but imo that s contradictory to the way to developp mech play since faster burrowed roaches would rapped tanks.
But I am not zerg too
To conclude as a terran player i am only sure about the terran changes :
- Tank period increased : useless
- Mech/air combined upgrade : useless
- Widow mines nerf : very very bad well, I disagree that widow mine nerf is very very bad (because without that nerf, zergs will always face with 4M) mutas tends to clumb up very easily (and many zergs players intentionally do that to get maximum dmg), and will get hurt significantly if not micro'd. Wait widow mines would now be too good vs mutas? Anyway the issue is that blizzard does what you want: Remove 4M as the dominant strat. It isn't a nerf to make it a bit worse, it is a nerf to make it go away. Which would be fine, if there was an alternative strat. But there simply isn't an alternative until there will be some major nerfs/changes to zerg.
or buff to terran! tHoR is + Show Spoiler + here!
(sorry, I should've said 'still effective vs mutas and will get hurt if not micro'd) 
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On September 28 2013 22:38 Snusmumriken wrote:Is the balance test map up yet? I dont know where to look for it
They said 'soon'.
http://wowpedia.org/Soon
wat do you expect :p
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EPT
