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would be nice if they include the map in the unranked map pool. Playing this map public without matchmaking is nonsense
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On September 28 2013 17:48 Zheryn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 17:07 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 16:39 DomeGetta wrote:
LOL - yesss innovation eliminated by soO - based on reverse logic this nerf terran patch (that's not about balance! it's about diversity in play! but it only nerfs 1 race and buffs the other 2! lolol) is looking even more necessary than before... Dimaga owns flash... Nerchiro owns forgg.... soO owns innovation? the "best player in the world" - still waiting to hear from someone about the foreign terrans rolling the korean zergs... oh wait.. Your examples are bad, because of your 3matches one is korean vs korean and one is foreigner vs foreign-training-korean (forgg has been staying in the Millenium house in France since forever). Nevertheless, I'm gonna do the stupid "let's throw out examples though they don't prove anything" with you, just so that you can see it does happen: HeRoMaRinE beat Hyun Lucifron beat Yugioh Sjow beat Life People love to throw out examples that "prove" their own point  "Oh my god Innovation lost a game against a zerg and he's the best player in the world, now he doesn't have 100% win rate, Z imba!" Personally, I will probably have a much harder time in ZvT after the patch. I play a ground-based style which works fine against widow mines, but it feels like tanks will shut that down. In pro games muta/ling/bane is already so dominant, and it feels like these changes will just force zergs into it even more. I would love if roach/hydra, roach/bane, ling/infestor, ling/ultra/bane etc were more viable so we could see some more diversity, but I feel like these changes does the opposite.
ROFL - so Sjow beating life 2 patches ago is relevant..and oh I'm sorry what foreign terrans are advancing in WCS right now? You don't want examples? Why is that - because you'd rather whine that Z is hard and you can't a move your units like in WOL instead of paying attention to facts? Don't want to talk about foreign Terrans? So far 1 korean Terran in the round of 8? Oh wait - there are no foreign Terrans in the WCS-EU Ro8? 1 Terran total MMA. And nice point about ForGG - because moving out of Korea definitely makes you a foreigner. Are you going to call Polt a foreigner too now bc he is still left in WCS AM? What about Taeja - is he not Korean? All of this is with the current balanced meta game - which you are advocating to make imbalanced. It's amazing to me how many people honestly want to relive wol - I hope people start posting now about how wol was balanced and the reign of zerg for the last year and a half was just coincidence. The logic is real. And lets keep ignoring the fact that even though the game is being acknowledged as balanced even by blizzard - we are still NERFING Terran and buffing the other 2 races - lets all be in shock and awe tho when that magically imbalances the game. And since we are still hopefully living in fact world - that's 2 TvZ's in a row that innovation was rolled - by zergs who played macro styles - is it not feasible that (as has happened over and over) zerg is catching up in terms of the meta game ::GASP:: - quick let's nerf again before that happens!
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I keep seeing people talking about a 10% improvement to attack speed as a 10% improvement to dps. This is incorrect. The equation is damage over time. Numerator over denominator.
100% / 100% = 1
100% / 90% = 1.11, or an 11% improvement. Carry on, Liquidians!
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On September 28 2013 22:49 DomeGetta wrote:
Are you going to call Polt a foreigner too now bc he is still left in WCS AM?
Polt actually kind-of is a foreigner, as he has been studying teamless in Texas for the past year or so. Like...when he won the MLG, he made a big deal in the interview about how you don't need to be in a training house with a coach to do well, which he was obviously quite concerned about when he first left for texas.
Similarly, Scarlett should not be considered a foreigner right now. She lives in Korea, speaks Korean, is in a Korean training house, is coached by former Korean coach of the year Cella, plays in GSTL, DRG specifically cites copying her style, Bomber specifically cites preparing cheeses for her in particular, Jaedong can't beat her in a macro game.
As far as looking at foreigners in WCS...I dunno about looking at WCS Europe, as it's kind-of a joke region. Even a lot of the best Europeans are in WCS America. (Demuslim, Snute).
So...it's probably better to look at WCS America where...MacSed (P) Sen (Z) and Polt (T) have advanced, and I think that's it so far for people not living in a Korea.
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On September 28 2013 20:24 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 20:03 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 19:33 Zarahtra wrote:On September 28 2013 18:36 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 18:18 keglu wrote:On September 28 2013 17:48 Zheryn wrote:On September 28 2013 17:07 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 16:39 DomeGetta wrote:
LOL - yesss innovation eliminated by soO - based on reverse logic this nerf terran patch (that's not about balance! it's about diversity in play! but it only nerfs 1 race and buffs the other 2! lolol) is looking even more necessary than before... Dimaga owns flash... Nerchiro owns forgg.... soO owns innovation? the "best player in the world" - still waiting to hear from someone about the foreign terrans rolling the korean zergs... oh wait.. Your examples are bad, because of your 3matches one is korean vs korean and one is foreigner vs foreign-training-korean (forgg has been staying in the Millenium house in France since forever). Nevertheless, I'm gonna do the stupid "let's throw out examples though they don't prove anything" with you, just so that you can see it does happen: HeRoMaRinE beat Hyun Lucifron beat Yugioh Sjow beat Life People love to throw out examples that "prove" their own point "Oh my god Innovation lost a game against a zerg and he's the best player in the world, now he doesn't have 100% win rate, Z imba!" Personally, I will probably have a much harder time in ZvT after the patch. I play a ground-based style which works fine against widow mines, but it feels like tanks will shut that down. In pro games muta/ling/bane is already so dominant, and it feels like these changes will just force zergs into it even more. I would love if roach/hydra, roach/bane, ling/infestor, ling/ultra/bane etc were more viable so we could see some more diversity, but I feel like these changes does the opposite. I agree these are weird changes. Many people talk about deiversity bun in TvZ mines are good againts ling/bling muta and this is most played composition by Zergs. So nerfing mines will make ling/bling muta even more popular. On other hand tanks are good againts roach/hydra which are barely played and post this change will probably be played even less. Alos what about TvT, Won't merging upgrades make mech having advantage over bio? I dont see how it helps mech in non mirror matchup. I think the upgrades help turtle Mech and in general more defensive tank/thor+bio Terran styles, with broodlords against zerg and I guess it helps hellbats a bit back into MMMVG compositions. But I don't think it's major either. The problem I see with TvZ is that mass mutalisk makes bio+mine nearly required. I guess overall it could work out, but as I have repeatetly said, I don't think the mine is a core issue of that matchup lacking diversity. I'd argue the muta is pretty much the core issue of both ZvT and ZvP. T have been able to deal with it, since mines provide such a high burst dmg against them, mutas can't poke much. Then their top usability is ofcourse to provide some AoE, so if zerg goes mass mass blings he can't just roll you over. P has had a lot more problem with mutas since they don't have this high burst dmg, with the regen storm is more like a tickle against muta pokes. I was always in favour of the muta buff, or atleast more muta play at the cost of the infestor. That being said, it leads to both P and T requiring pretty strong anti-muta units. T has had it while P has been kind of fucked. I don't really see how you can nerf T's anti-muta unit without toning mutas down(and then what HotS changes are really left? they seem to be dieing off one by one). I'd be fine with mutalisks in themselves and especially Terran can combat them very well, and against Protoss, mutalisks are the only reason why you can be aggressive vs Protoss without mass swarm hosts. Without them every Protoss could just go for some robo/stargate turtle play and I really don't want to see double robo as the standard midgame of any matchup. Thing is, they are problematic in TvZ, due to the Terran having to trade and never actually building anything of worth. Which means that there often comes the point in the lategame where there are 3000/3000 or more worth in mutas, against a Terran whose army is still of the same quality that it was 10mins ago. And though the zerg combat power hasn't increased - having 1mutalisk instead of some ling/bling for the same cost/supply doesn't make you stronger in fights - the quality/utility of mutalisks just starts to shine through. (mostly in terms of terran not getting a new mining base in those situations) Terran just lacks the same quality in terms of units in the lategame, though having the raw power. What Terran needs is a transition/build up similar to the zerg units qualitiwise. And that must simply mean that the game needs to be balanced around higher tier units of terran, if we don't want the matchup to play out the way it does these days, every game. The excessive mineplay that we see these days is first and foremost a problematic because there is no alternative to it for Terran - and thuse the zerg counterstrategies must not be capable of shutting it down if they prepare for it. Don't get me wrong, I do agree for the most part. That being said, I think we would be dreaming if we expect Blizz to do such ground breaking changes as have T3 T units better than T1. I don't know, I personally always loved TvZ before the infestor era in WoL and would like the MU to go closer to it. marine tank vs ling bling muta into infestor BL. It was a war of attrition, such as I suppose TvZ is now, but right now the engagements are a clusterfuck of "do the wms blow up the T units or the Z units" while with tanks you knew roughly what you'd get for your buck. It was also a lot more of a strategy game rather than just "pile on the pressure". That still didn't require high tech T units(tank isn't much more high tech than mines, though I do suppose it makes gas geysers a bit more valueble, rather than just skipping them on 3rd/4th). But yeah, the changes to the tank won't fix their issues in both TvZ and TvP. Ofcourse they will be stronger, but the core issue of why the tank sucks is still going to be stronger mutas require a more direct answer/they are more open to snipes with stronger mutas and vipers counter them to much(aswell as possibly ultra play, it's hard to say without more tank games that gets to lategame on even grounds). Then tanks in TvP have a huge combination of issues which IAS hardly touches on(with that said, tanks can work, though it is more as a sniper for hts/colossi so hellbats can reign supreme).
Well, specifically talking TvZ I do think the tankbuff is a step in the right direction of getting ZvT more into the direction of more maneuvering. Because tanks just have a very different dynamic, as in they are costly (so just going/rallying over the map isn't as strong) and they scale up very well (so not attacking is a good option).
I think marine/mine as support for 1 (or 2 in the lategame) factories that produce tanks, as well as an occasional thor can keep mutas in check and I don't think vipers are a problem for as long as you play biomech. I think the main question that buffed tankbased play has to answer is whether it can recover from army losses or straight up prevent them. Which is hugely connected to the amount of units it can take with it into its grave and therefore with the costefficiency of tanks.
I don't think Terran T3 units - or rather gasintense styles - are "bad". But it is missing some tiny costefficiency here and there in TvZ to overcome the units downsides (cost, mobility, predictability) with their upsides (raw power, supplyefficiency, defensive capabilities).
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On September 29 2013 00:47 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 20:24 Zarahtra wrote:On September 28 2013 20:03 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 19:33 Zarahtra wrote:On September 28 2013 18:36 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 18:18 keglu wrote:On September 28 2013 17:48 Zheryn wrote:On September 28 2013 17:07 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 16:39 DomeGetta wrote:
LOL - yesss innovation eliminated by soO - based on reverse logic this nerf terran patch (that's not about balance! it's about diversity in play! but it only nerfs 1 race and buffs the other 2! lolol) is looking even more necessary than before... Dimaga owns flash... Nerchiro owns forgg.... soO owns innovation? the "best player in the world" - still waiting to hear from someone about the foreign terrans rolling the korean zergs... oh wait.. Your examples are bad, because of your 3matches one is korean vs korean and one is foreigner vs foreign-training-korean (forgg has been staying in the Millenium house in France since forever). Nevertheless, I'm gonna do the stupid "let's throw out examples though they don't prove anything" with you, just so that you can see it does happen: HeRoMaRinE beat Hyun Lucifron beat Yugioh Sjow beat Life People love to throw out examples that "prove" their own point "Oh my god Innovation lost a game against a zerg and he's the best player in the world, now he doesn't have 100% win rate, Z imba!" Personally, I will probably have a much harder time in ZvT after the patch. I play a ground-based style which works fine against widow mines, but it feels like tanks will shut that down. In pro games muta/ling/bane is already so dominant, and it feels like these changes will just force zergs into it even more. I would love if roach/hydra, roach/bane, ling/infestor, ling/ultra/bane etc were more viable so we could see some more diversity, but I feel like these changes does the opposite. I agree these are weird changes. Many people talk about deiversity bun in TvZ mines are good againts ling/bling muta and this is most played composition by Zergs. So nerfing mines will make ling/bling muta even more popular. On other hand tanks are good againts roach/hydra which are barely played and post this change will probably be played even less. Alos what about TvT, Won't merging upgrades make mech having advantage over bio? I dont see how it helps mech in non mirror matchup. I think the upgrades help turtle Mech and in general more defensive tank/thor+bio Terran styles, with broodlords against zerg and I guess it helps hellbats a bit back into MMMVG compositions. But I don't think it's major either. The problem I see with TvZ is that mass mutalisk makes bio+mine nearly required. I guess overall it could work out, but as I have repeatetly said, I don't think the mine is a core issue of that matchup lacking diversity. I'd argue the muta is pretty much the core issue of both ZvT and ZvP. T have been able to deal with it, since mines provide such a high burst dmg against them, mutas can't poke much. Then their top usability is ofcourse to provide some AoE, so if zerg goes mass mass blings he can't just roll you over. P has had a lot more problem with mutas since they don't have this high burst dmg, with the regen storm is more like a tickle against muta pokes. I was always in favour of the muta buff, or atleast more muta play at the cost of the infestor. That being said, it leads to both P and T requiring pretty strong anti-muta units. T has had it while P has been kind of fucked. I don't really see how you can nerf T's anti-muta unit without toning mutas down(and then what HotS changes are really left? they seem to be dieing off one by one). I'd be fine with mutalisks in themselves and especially Terran can combat them very well, and against Protoss, mutalisks are the only reason why you can be aggressive vs Protoss without mass swarm hosts. Without them every Protoss could just go for some robo/stargate turtle play and I really don't want to see double robo as the standard midgame of any matchup. Thing is, they are problematic in TvZ, due to the Terran having to trade and never actually building anything of worth. Which means that there often comes the point in the lategame where there are 3000/3000 or more worth in mutas, against a Terran whose army is still of the same quality that it was 10mins ago. And though the zerg combat power hasn't increased - having 1mutalisk instead of some ling/bling for the same cost/supply doesn't make you stronger in fights - the quality/utility of mutalisks just starts to shine through. (mostly in terms of terran not getting a new mining base in those situations) Terran just lacks the same quality in terms of units in the lategame, though having the raw power. What Terran needs is a transition/build up similar to the zerg units qualitiwise. And that must simply mean that the game needs to be balanced around higher tier units of terran, if we don't want the matchup to play out the way it does these days, every game. The excessive mineplay that we see these days is first and foremost a problematic because there is no alternative to it for Terran - and thuse the zerg counterstrategies must not be capable of shutting it down if they prepare for it. Don't get me wrong, I do agree for the most part. That being said, I think we would be dreaming if we expect Blizz to do such ground breaking changes as have T3 T units better than T1. I don't know, I personally always loved TvZ before the infestor era in WoL and would like the MU to go closer to it. marine tank vs ling bling muta into infestor BL. It was a war of attrition, such as I suppose TvZ is now, but right now the engagements are a clusterfuck of "do the wms blow up the T units or the Z units" while with tanks you knew roughly what you'd get for your buck. It was also a lot more of a strategy game rather than just "pile on the pressure". That still didn't require high tech T units(tank isn't much more high tech than mines, though I do suppose it makes gas geysers a bit more valueble, rather than just skipping them on 3rd/4th). But yeah, the changes to the tank won't fix their issues in both TvZ and TvP. Ofcourse they will be stronger, but the core issue of why the tank sucks is still going to be stronger mutas require a more direct answer/they are more open to snipes with stronger mutas and vipers counter them to much(aswell as possibly ultra play, it's hard to say without more tank games that gets to lategame on even grounds). Then tanks in TvP have a huge combination of issues which IAS hardly touches on(with that said, tanks can work, though it is more as a sniper for hts/colossi so hellbats can reign supreme). Well, specifically talking TvZ I do think the tankbuff is a step in the right direction of getting ZvT more into the direction of more maneuvering. Because tanks just have a very different dynamic, as in they are costly (so just going/rallying over the map isn't as strong) and they scale up very well (so not attacking is a good option). I think marine/mine as support for 1 (or 2 in the lategame) factories that produce tanks, as well as an occasional thor can keep mutas in check and I don't think vipers are a problem for as long as you play biomech. I think the main question that buffed tankbased play has to answer is whether it can recover from army losses or straight up prevent them. Which is hugely connected to the amount of units it can take with it into its grave and therefore with the costefficiency of tanks. I don't think Terran T3 units - or rather gasintense styles - are "bad". But it is missing some tiny costefficiency here and there in TvZ to overcome the units downsides (cost, mobility, predictability) with their upsides (raw power, supplyefficiency, defensive capabilities).
Apart from Ultralisks, none of the Tier 3 units have mobility.
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On September 29 2013 01:23 ysnake wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 00:47 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 20:24 Zarahtra wrote:On September 28 2013 20:03 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 19:33 Zarahtra wrote:On September 28 2013 18:36 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 18:18 keglu wrote:On September 28 2013 17:48 Zheryn wrote:On September 28 2013 17:07 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 16:39 DomeGetta wrote:
LOL - yesss innovation eliminated by soO - based on reverse logic this nerf terran patch (that's not about balance! it's about diversity in play! but it only nerfs 1 race and buffs the other 2! lolol) is looking even more necessary than before... Dimaga owns flash... Nerchiro owns forgg.... soO owns innovation? the "best player in the world" - still waiting to hear from someone about the foreign terrans rolling the korean zergs... oh wait.. Your examples are bad, because of your 3matches one is korean vs korean and one is foreigner vs foreign-training-korean (forgg has been staying in the Millenium house in France since forever). Nevertheless, I'm gonna do the stupid "let's throw out examples though they don't prove anything" with you, just so that you can see it does happen: HeRoMaRinE beat Hyun Lucifron beat Yugioh Sjow beat Life People love to throw out examples that "prove" their own point "Oh my god Innovation lost a game against a zerg and he's the best player in the world, now he doesn't have 100% win rate, Z imba!" Personally, I will probably have a much harder time in ZvT after the patch. I play a ground-based style which works fine against widow mines, but it feels like tanks will shut that down. In pro games muta/ling/bane is already so dominant, and it feels like these changes will just force zergs into it even more. I would love if roach/hydra, roach/bane, ling/infestor, ling/ultra/bane etc were more viable so we could see some more diversity, but I feel like these changes does the opposite. I agree these are weird changes. Many people talk about deiversity bun in TvZ mines are good againts ling/bling muta and this is most played composition by Zergs. So nerfing mines will make ling/bling muta even more popular. On other hand tanks are good againts roach/hydra which are barely played and post this change will probably be played even less. Alos what about TvT, Won't merging upgrades make mech having advantage over bio? I dont see how it helps mech in non mirror matchup. I think the upgrades help turtle Mech and in general more defensive tank/thor+bio Terran styles, with broodlords against zerg and I guess it helps hellbats a bit back into MMMVG compositions. But I don't think it's major either. The problem I see with TvZ is that mass mutalisk makes bio+mine nearly required. I guess overall it could work out, but as I have repeatetly said, I don't think the mine is a core issue of that matchup lacking diversity. I'd argue the muta is pretty much the core issue of both ZvT and ZvP. T have been able to deal with it, since mines provide such a high burst dmg against them, mutas can't poke much. Then their top usability is ofcourse to provide some AoE, so if zerg goes mass mass blings he can't just roll you over. P has had a lot more problem with mutas since they don't have this high burst dmg, with the regen storm is more like a tickle against muta pokes. I was always in favour of the muta buff, or atleast more muta play at the cost of the infestor. That being said, it leads to both P and T requiring pretty strong anti-muta units. T has had it while P has been kind of fucked. I don't really see how you can nerf T's anti-muta unit without toning mutas down(and then what HotS changes are really left? they seem to be dieing off one by one). I'd be fine with mutalisks in themselves and especially Terran can combat them very well, and against Protoss, mutalisks are the only reason why you can be aggressive vs Protoss without mass swarm hosts. Without them every Protoss could just go for some robo/stargate turtle play and I really don't want to see double robo as the standard midgame of any matchup. Thing is, they are problematic in TvZ, due to the Terran having to trade and never actually building anything of worth. Which means that there often comes the point in the lategame where there are 3000/3000 or more worth in mutas, against a Terran whose army is still of the same quality that it was 10mins ago. And though the zerg combat power hasn't increased - having 1mutalisk instead of some ling/bling for the same cost/supply doesn't make you stronger in fights - the quality/utility of mutalisks just starts to shine through. (mostly in terms of terran not getting a new mining base in those situations) Terran just lacks the same quality in terms of units in the lategame, though having the raw power. What Terran needs is a transition/build up similar to the zerg units qualitiwise. And that must simply mean that the game needs to be balanced around higher tier units of terran, if we don't want the matchup to play out the way it does these days, every game. The excessive mineplay that we see these days is first and foremost a problematic because there is no alternative to it for Terran - and thuse the zerg counterstrategies must not be capable of shutting it down if they prepare for it. Don't get me wrong, I do agree for the most part. That being said, I think we would be dreaming if we expect Blizz to do such ground breaking changes as have T3 T units better than T1. I don't know, I personally always loved TvZ before the infestor era in WoL and would like the MU to go closer to it. marine tank vs ling bling muta into infestor BL. It was a war of attrition, such as I suppose TvZ is now, but right now the engagements are a clusterfuck of "do the wms blow up the T units or the Z units" while with tanks you knew roughly what you'd get for your buck. It was also a lot more of a strategy game rather than just "pile on the pressure". That still didn't require high tech T units(tank isn't much more high tech than mines, though I do suppose it makes gas geysers a bit more valueble, rather than just skipping them on 3rd/4th). But yeah, the changes to the tank won't fix their issues in both TvZ and TvP. Ofcourse they will be stronger, but the core issue of why the tank sucks is still going to be stronger mutas require a more direct answer/they are more open to snipes with stronger mutas and vipers counter them to much(aswell as possibly ultra play, it's hard to say without more tank games that gets to lategame on even grounds). Then tanks in TvP have a huge combination of issues which IAS hardly touches on(with that said, tanks can work, though it is more as a sniper for hts/colossi so hellbats can reign supreme). Well, specifically talking TvZ I do think the tankbuff is a step in the right direction of getting ZvT more into the direction of more maneuvering. Because tanks just have a very different dynamic, as in they are costly (so just going/rallying over the map isn't as strong) and they scale up very well (so not attacking is a good option). I think marine/mine as support for 1 (or 2 in the lategame) factories that produce tanks, as well as an occasional thor can keep mutas in check and I don't think vipers are a problem for as long as you play biomech. I think the main question that buffed tankbased play has to answer is whether it can recover from army losses or straight up prevent them. Which is hugely connected to the amount of units it can take with it into its grave and therefore with the costefficiency of tanks. I don't think Terran T3 units - or rather gasintense styles - are "bad". But it is missing some tiny costefficiency here and there in TvZ to overcome the units downsides (cost, mobility, predictability) with their upsides (raw power, supplyefficiency, defensive capabilities). Apart from Ultralisks, none of the Tier 3 units have mobility.
Not even those are supermobile. But I fail to see what you want to tell me with that.
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On September 28 2013 23:35 idkfa wrote:
I keep seeing people talking about a 10% improvement to attack speed as a 10% improvement to dps. This is incorrect. The equation is damage over time. Numerator over denominator.
100% / 100% = 1
100% / 90% = 1.11, or an 11% improvement. Carry on, Liquidians!
This is absolutely right, there is an 11% increase in DPS. I think people were confused because the old DPS is 90% of the new DPS, which is a difference of 10% with respect to the new DPS. Good job idkfa for catching this!
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On September 29 2013 01:42 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 01:23 ysnake wrote:On September 29 2013 00:47 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 20:24 Zarahtra wrote:On September 28 2013 20:03 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 19:33 Zarahtra wrote:On September 28 2013 18:36 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 18:18 keglu wrote:On September 28 2013 17:48 Zheryn wrote:On September 28 2013 17:07 Big J wrote:
[quote]
Your examples are bad, because of your 3matches one is korean vs korean and one is foreigner vs foreign-training-korean (forgg has been staying in the Millenium house in France since forever). Nevertheless, I'm gonna do the stupid "let's throw out examples though they don't prove anything" with you, just so that you can see it does happen:
HeRoMaRinE beat Hyun
Lucifron beat Yugioh
Sjow beat Life People love to throw out examples that "prove" their own point "Oh my god Innovation lost a game against a zerg and he's the best player in the world, now he doesn't have 100% win rate, Z imba!" Personally, I will probably have a much harder time in ZvT after the patch. I play a ground-based style which works fine against widow mines, but it feels like tanks will shut that down. In pro games muta/ling/bane is already so dominant, and it feels like these changes will just force zergs into it even more. I would love if roach/hydra, roach/bane, ling/infestor, ling/ultra/bane etc were more viable so we could see some more diversity, but I feel like these changes does the opposite. I agree these are weird changes. Many people talk about deiversity bun in TvZ mines are good againts ling/bling muta and this is most played composition by Zergs. So nerfing mines will make ling/bling muta even more popular. On other hand tanks are good againts roach/hydra which are barely played and post this change will probably be played even less. Alos what about TvT, Won't merging upgrades make mech having advantage over bio? I dont see how it helps mech in non mirror matchup. I think the upgrades help turtle Mech and in general more defensive tank/thor+bio Terran styles, with broodlords against zerg and I guess it helps hellbats a bit back into MMMVG compositions. But I don't think it's major either. The problem I see with TvZ is that mass mutalisk makes bio+mine nearly required. I guess overall it could work out, but as I have repeatetly said, I don't think the mine is a core issue of that matchup lacking diversity. I'd argue the muta is pretty much the core issue of both ZvT and ZvP. T have been able to deal with it, since mines provide such a high burst dmg against them, mutas can't poke much. Then their top usability is ofcourse to provide some AoE, so if zerg goes mass mass blings he can't just roll you over. P has had a lot more problem with mutas since they don't have this high burst dmg, with the regen storm is more like a tickle against muta pokes. I was always in favour of the muta buff, or atleast more muta play at the cost of the infestor. That being said, it leads to both P and T requiring pretty strong anti-muta units. T has had it while P has been kind of fucked. I don't really see how you can nerf T's anti-muta unit without toning mutas down(and then what HotS changes are really left? they seem to be dieing off one by one). I'd be fine with mutalisks in themselves and especially Terran can combat them very well, and against Protoss, mutalisks are the only reason why you can be aggressive vs Protoss without mass swarm hosts. Without them every Protoss could just go for some robo/stargate turtle play and I really don't want to see double robo as the standard midgame of any matchup. Thing is, they are problematic in TvZ, due to the Terran having to trade and never actually building anything of worth. Which means that there often comes the point in the lategame where there are 3000/3000 or more worth in mutas, against a Terran whose army is still of the same quality that it was 10mins ago. And though the zerg combat power hasn't increased - having 1mutalisk instead of some ling/bling for the same cost/supply doesn't make you stronger in fights - the quality/utility of mutalisks just starts to shine through. (mostly in terms of terran not getting a new mining base in those situations) Terran just lacks the same quality in terms of units in the lategame, though having the raw power. What Terran needs is a transition/build up similar to the zerg units qualitiwise. And that must simply mean that the game needs to be balanced around higher tier units of terran, if we don't want the matchup to play out the way it does these days, every game. The excessive mineplay that we see these days is first and foremost a problematic because there is no alternative to it for Terran - and thuse the zerg counterstrategies must not be capable of shutting it down if they prepare for it. Don't get me wrong, I do agree for the most part. That being said, I think we would be dreaming if we expect Blizz to do such ground breaking changes as have T3 T units better than T1. I don't know, I personally always loved TvZ before the infestor era in WoL and would like the MU to go closer to it. marine tank vs ling bling muta into infestor BL. It was a war of attrition, such as I suppose TvZ is now, but right now the engagements are a clusterfuck of "do the wms blow up the T units or the Z units" while with tanks you knew roughly what you'd get for your buck. It was also a lot more of a strategy game rather than just "pile on the pressure". That still didn't require high tech T units(tank isn't much more high tech than mines, though I do suppose it makes gas geysers a bit more valueble, rather than just skipping them on 3rd/4th). But yeah, the changes to the tank won't fix their issues in both TvZ and TvP. Ofcourse they will be stronger, but the core issue of why the tank sucks is still going to be stronger mutas require a more direct answer/they are more open to snipes with stronger mutas and vipers counter them to much(aswell as possibly ultra play, it's hard to say without more tank games that gets to lategame on even grounds). Then tanks in TvP have a huge combination of issues which IAS hardly touches on(with that said, tanks can work, though it is more as a sniper for hts/colossi so hellbats can reign supreme). Well, specifically talking TvZ I do think the tankbuff is a step in the right direction of getting ZvT more into the direction of more maneuvering. Because tanks just have a very different dynamic, as in they are costly (so just going/rallying over the map isn't as strong) and they scale up very well (so not attacking is a good option). I think marine/mine as support for 1 (or 2 in the lategame) factories that produce tanks, as well as an occasional thor can keep mutas in check and I don't think vipers are a problem for as long as you play biomech. I think the main question that buffed tankbased play has to answer is whether it can recover from army losses or straight up prevent them. Which is hugely connected to the amount of units it can take with it into its grave and therefore with the costefficiency of tanks. I don't think Terran T3 units - or rather gasintense styles - are "bad". But it is missing some tiny costefficiency here and there in TvZ to overcome the units downsides (cost, mobility, predictability) with their upsides (raw power, supplyefficiency, defensive capabilities). Apart from Ultralisks, none of the Tier 3 units have mobility. Not even those are supermobile. But I fail to see what you want to tell me with that.
In a high-mobility game, that's one of the key things why T3 is hard to pull off, to this day, I hate to use Brood Lords, didn't even like them in WoL meta.
Unless you are knocking at your opponent's front door, Mutas, drops and warp-in harass can outright kill you unless you have a mobile army.
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On September 29 2013 00:47 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 20:24 Zarahtra wrote:On September 28 2013 20:03 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 19:33 Zarahtra wrote:On September 28 2013 18:36 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 18:18 keglu wrote:On September 28 2013 17:48 Zheryn wrote:On September 28 2013 17:07 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 16:39 DomeGetta wrote:
LOL - yesss innovation eliminated by soO - based on reverse logic this nerf terran patch (that's not about balance! it's about diversity in play! but it only nerfs 1 race and buffs the other 2! lolol) is looking even more necessary than before... Dimaga owns flash... Nerchiro owns forgg.... soO owns innovation? the "best player in the world" - still waiting to hear from someone about the foreign terrans rolling the korean zergs... oh wait.. Your examples are bad, because of your 3matches one is korean vs korean and one is foreigner vs foreign-training-korean (forgg has been staying in the Millenium house in France since forever). Nevertheless, I'm gonna do the stupid "let's throw out examples though they don't prove anything" with you, just so that you can see it does happen: HeRoMaRinE beat Hyun Lucifron beat Yugioh Sjow beat Life People love to throw out examples that "prove" their own point "Oh my god Innovation lost a game against a zerg and he's the best player in the world, now he doesn't have 100% win rate, Z imba!" Personally, I will probably have a much harder time in ZvT after the patch. I play a ground-based style which works fine against widow mines, but it feels like tanks will shut that down. In pro games muta/ling/bane is already so dominant, and it feels like these changes will just force zergs into it even more. I would love if roach/hydra, roach/bane, ling/infestor, ling/ultra/bane etc were more viable so we could see some more diversity, but I feel like these changes does the opposite. I agree these are weird changes. Many people talk about deiversity bun in TvZ mines are good againts ling/bling muta and this is most played composition by Zergs. So nerfing mines will make ling/bling muta even more popular. On other hand tanks are good againts roach/hydra which are barely played and post this change will probably be played even less. Alos what about TvT, Won't merging upgrades make mech having advantage over bio? I dont see how it helps mech in non mirror matchup. I think the upgrades help turtle Mech and in general more defensive tank/thor+bio Terran styles, with broodlords against zerg and I guess it helps hellbats a bit back into MMMVG compositions. But I don't think it's major either. The problem I see with TvZ is that mass mutalisk makes bio+mine nearly required. I guess overall it could work out, but as I have repeatetly said, I don't think the mine is a core issue of that matchup lacking diversity. I'd argue the muta is pretty much the core issue of both ZvT and ZvP. T have been able to deal with it, since mines provide such a high burst dmg against them, mutas can't poke much. Then their top usability is ofcourse to provide some AoE, so if zerg goes mass mass blings he can't just roll you over. P has had a lot more problem with mutas since they don't have this high burst dmg, with the regen storm is more like a tickle against muta pokes. I was always in favour of the muta buff, or atleast more muta play at the cost of the infestor. That being said, it leads to both P and T requiring pretty strong anti-muta units. T has had it while P has been kind of fucked. I don't really see how you can nerf T's anti-muta unit without toning mutas down(and then what HotS changes are really left? they seem to be dieing off one by one). I'd be fine with mutalisks in themselves and especially Terran can combat them very well, and against Protoss, mutalisks are the only reason why you can be aggressive vs Protoss without mass swarm hosts. Without them every Protoss could just go for some robo/stargate turtle play and I really don't want to see double robo as the standard midgame of any matchup. Thing is, they are problematic in TvZ, due to the Terran having to trade and never actually building anything of worth. Which means that there often comes the point in the lategame where there are 3000/3000 or more worth in mutas, against a Terran whose army is still of the same quality that it was 10mins ago. And though the zerg combat power hasn't increased - having 1mutalisk instead of some ling/bling for the same cost/supply doesn't make you stronger in fights - the quality/utility of mutalisks just starts to shine through. (mostly in terms of terran not getting a new mining base in those situations) Terran just lacks the same quality in terms of units in the lategame, though having the raw power. What Terran needs is a transition/build up similar to the zerg units qualitiwise. And that must simply mean that the game needs to be balanced around higher tier units of terran, if we don't want the matchup to play out the way it does these days, every game. The excessive mineplay that we see these days is first and foremost a problematic because there is no alternative to it for Terran - and thuse the zerg counterstrategies must not be capable of shutting it down if they prepare for it. Don't get me wrong, I do agree for the most part. That being said, I think we would be dreaming if we expect Blizz to do such ground breaking changes as have T3 T units better than T1. I don't know, I personally always loved TvZ before the infestor era in WoL and would like the MU to go closer to it. marine tank vs ling bling muta into infestor BL. It was a war of attrition, such as I suppose TvZ is now, but right now the engagements are a clusterfuck of "do the wms blow up the T units or the Z units" while with tanks you knew roughly what you'd get for your buck. It was also a lot more of a strategy game rather than just "pile on the pressure". That still didn't require high tech T units(tank isn't much more high tech than mines, though I do suppose it makes gas geysers a bit more valueble, rather than just skipping them on 3rd/4th). But yeah, the changes to the tank won't fix their issues in both TvZ and TvP. Ofcourse they will be stronger, but the core issue of why the tank sucks is still going to be stronger mutas require a more direct answer/they are more open to snipes with stronger mutas and vipers counter them to much(aswell as possibly ultra play, it's hard to say without more tank games that gets to lategame on even grounds). Then tanks in TvP have a huge combination of issues which IAS hardly touches on(with that said, tanks can work, though it is more as a sniper for hts/colossi so hellbats can reign supreme). Well, specifically talking TvZ I do think the tankbuff is a step in the right direction of getting ZvT more into the direction of more maneuvering. Because tanks just have a very different dynamic, as in they are costly (so just going/rallying over the map isn't as strong) and they scale up very well (so not attacking is a good option). I think marine/mine as support for 1 (or 2 in the lategame) factories that produce tanks, as well as an occasional thor can keep mutas in check and I don't think vipers are a problem for as long as you play biomech. I think the main question that buffed tankbased play has to answer is whether it can recover from army losses or straight up prevent them. Which is hugely connected to the amount of units it can take with it into its grave and therefore with the costefficiency of tanks. I don't think Terran T3 units - or rather gasintense styles - are "bad". But it is missing some tiny costefficiency here and there in TvZ to overcome the units downsides (cost, mobility, predictability) with their upsides (raw power, supplyefficiency, defensive capabilities).
Terran T3 is just down right bad. First issue is infrastructure and build time. Second is mobility. Even with these 2 huge downsides, they aren't really out right dominate in a head to head fight.
This is similar to siege tanks in TvZ. If you get caught unsiege, you pretty much just lost the game. But even if you are sieged, the zerg can still trade evenly (especially on creep). So the risk and reward for tank play is very small. Having low mobility also means the zerg has enough time to harrass with mutas and then come back and engage if they need.
And it is not a tiny cost efficiency issue. That would be saying that P gateway units only lack a tiny cost efficiency vs stimmed bio. The gap between terran T3 and zerg/protoss T3 is pretty huge.
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On September 29 2013 02:05 ysnake wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 01:42 Big J wrote:On September 29 2013 01:23 ysnake wrote:On September 29 2013 00:47 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 20:24 Zarahtra wrote:On September 28 2013 20:03 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 19:33 Zarahtra wrote:On September 28 2013 18:36 Big J wrote:On September 28 2013 18:18 keglu wrote:On September 28 2013 17:48 Zheryn wrote:[quote] People love to throw out examples that "prove" their own point "Oh my god Innovation lost a game against a zerg and he's the best player in the world, now he doesn't have 100% win rate, Z imba!" Personally, I will probably have a much harder time in ZvT after the patch. I play a ground-based style which works fine against widow mines, but it feels like tanks will shut that down. In pro games muta/ling/bane is already so dominant, and it feels like these changes will just force zergs into it even more. I would love if roach/hydra, roach/bane, ling/infestor, ling/ultra/bane etc were more viable so we could see some more diversity, but I feel like these changes does the opposite. I agree these are weird changes. Many people talk about deiversity bun in TvZ mines are good againts ling/bling muta and this is most played composition by Zergs. So nerfing mines will make ling/bling muta even more popular. On other hand tanks are good againts roach/hydra which are barely played and post this change will probably be played even less. Alos what about TvT, Won't merging upgrades make mech having advantage over bio? I dont see how it helps mech in non mirror matchup. I think the upgrades help turtle Mech and in general more defensive tank/thor+bio Terran styles, with broodlords against zerg and I guess it helps hellbats a bit back into MMMVG compositions. But I don't think it's major either. The problem I see with TvZ is that mass mutalisk makes bio+mine nearly required. I guess overall it could work out, but as I have repeatetly said, I don't think the mine is a core issue of that matchup lacking diversity. I'd argue the muta is pretty much the core issue of both ZvT and ZvP. T have been able to deal with it, since mines provide such a high burst dmg against them, mutas can't poke much. Then their top usability is ofcourse to provide some AoE, so if zerg goes mass mass blings he can't just roll you over. P has had a lot more problem with mutas since they don't have this high burst dmg, with the regen storm is more like a tickle against muta pokes. I was always in favour of the muta buff, or atleast more muta play at the cost of the infestor. That being said, it leads to both P and T requiring pretty strong anti-muta units. T has had it while P has been kind of fucked. I don't really see how you can nerf T's anti-muta unit without toning mutas down(and then what HotS changes are really left? they seem to be dieing off one by one). I'd be fine with mutalisks in themselves and especially Terran can combat them very well, and against Protoss, mutalisks are the only reason why you can be aggressive vs Protoss without mass swarm hosts. Without them every Protoss could just go for some robo/stargate turtle play and I really don't want to see double robo as the standard midgame of any matchup. Thing is, they are problematic in TvZ, due to the Terran having to trade and never actually building anything of worth. Which means that there often comes the point in the lategame where there are 3000/3000 or more worth in mutas, against a Terran whose army is still of the same quality that it was 10mins ago. And though the zerg combat power hasn't increased - having 1mutalisk instead of some ling/bling for the same cost/supply doesn't make you stronger in fights - the quality/utility of mutalisks just starts to shine through. (mostly in terms of terran not getting a new mining base in those situations) Terran just lacks the same quality in terms of units in the lategame, though having the raw power. What Terran needs is a transition/build up similar to the zerg units qualitiwise. And that must simply mean that the game needs to be balanced around higher tier units of terran, if we don't want the matchup to play out the way it does these days, every game. The excessive mineplay that we see these days is first and foremost a problematic because there is no alternative to it for Terran - and thuse the zerg counterstrategies must not be capable of shutting it down if they prepare for it. Don't get me wrong, I do agree for the most part. That being said, I think we would be dreaming if we expect Blizz to do such ground breaking changes as have T3 T units better than T1. I don't know, I personally always loved TvZ before the infestor era in WoL and would like the MU to go closer to it. marine tank vs ling bling muta into infestor BL. It was a war of attrition, such as I suppose TvZ is now, but right now the engagements are a clusterfuck of "do the wms blow up the T units or the Z units" while with tanks you knew roughly what you'd get for your buck. It was also a lot more of a strategy game rather than just "pile on the pressure". That still didn't require high tech T units(tank isn't much more high tech than mines, though I do suppose it makes gas geysers a bit more valueble, rather than just skipping them on 3rd/4th). But yeah, the changes to the tank won't fix their issues in both TvZ and TvP. Ofcourse they will be stronger, but the core issue of why the tank sucks is still going to be stronger mutas require a more direct answer/they are more open to snipes with stronger mutas and vipers counter them to much(aswell as possibly ultra play, it's hard to say without more tank games that gets to lategame on even grounds). Then tanks in TvP have a huge combination of issues which IAS hardly touches on(with that said, tanks can work, though it is more as a sniper for hts/colossi so hellbats can reign supreme). Well, specifically talking TvZ I do think the tankbuff is a step in the right direction of getting ZvT more into the direction of more maneuvering. Because tanks just have a very different dynamic, as in they are costly (so just going/rallying over the map isn't as strong) and they scale up very well (so not attacking is a good option). I think marine/mine as support for 1 (or 2 in the lategame) factories that produce tanks, as well as an occasional thor can keep mutas in check and I don't think vipers are a problem for as long as you play biomech. I think the main question that buffed tankbased play has to answer is whether it can recover from army losses or straight up prevent them. Which is hugely connected to the amount of units it can take with it into its grave and therefore with the costefficiency of tanks. I don't think Terran T3 units - or rather gasintense styles - are "bad". But it is missing some tiny costefficiency here and there in TvZ to overcome the units downsides (cost, mobility, predictability) with their upsides (raw power, supplyefficiency, defensive capabilities). Apart from Ultralisks, none of the Tier 3 units have mobility. Not even those are supermobile. But I fail to see what you want to tell me with that. In a high-mobility game, that's one of the key things why T3 is hard to pull off, to this day, I hate to use Brood Lords, didn't even like them in WoL meta. Unless you are knocking at your opponent's front door, Mutas, drops and warp-in harass can outright kill you unless you have a mobile army.
It's possible in TvT, it's possible in most vs Protoss matches (mobile Protoss play is rare and kind of limited to the occasional skycompositions in PvZ and PvP), and it was possible in WoL ZvT by both sides. Neither Mech TvT nor Protoss Deathballs need equal mobility to their enemy races, nor did BL/Infestor.
The idea of having different compositions is that they have different strengths and weaknesses, and that their strenghts can overcome their weaknesses. Hightier Terran styles having such a weakness is a good thing. Hightier Terran styles not having enough of what should be their strengths to make up for that is the thing that needs to get adressed. At least it is what I wrote and currently believe.
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Give us Ultradlisk burrow charge back!
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i think the chances will have no effect on the game and i recognise many players going inactive or leaving the game. blizzard is too carefull at patching. It's annoying to see that blizzard doesn't want to listen the biggest part of this community and actually make this game fun to play. instead they continue focusing on "the balance" and messed the league system up. they simply do everything for not making this game fun and just listen the top 1% of the community.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 29 2013 02:44 foreign2 wrote:
i think the chances will have no effect on the game and i recognise many players going inactive or leaving the game. blizzard is too carefull at patching. It's annoying to see that blizzard doesn't want to listen the biggest part of this community and actually make this game fun to play. instead they continue focusing on "the balance" and messed the league system up. they simply do everything for not making this game fun and just listen the top 1% of the community.
For good 90% of community the best way to make SC2 fun is to give i-win button to everyone.
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2013 02:48 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 02:44 foreign2 wrote:
i think the chances will have no effect on the game and i recognise many players going inactive or leaving the game. blizzard is too carefull at patching. It's annoying to see that blizzard doesn't want to listen the biggest part of this community and actually make this game fun to play. instead they continue focusing on "the balance" and messed the league system up. they simply do everything for not making this game fun and just listen the top 1% of the community.
For good 90% of community the best way to make SC2 fun is to give i-win button to everyone.
the problem with sc2 is that it's very frustrating if you win and even more if you lose. it's because of the gameplay you need to invest tons of energy into this game and still get punished for simple mistakes that can end the game. i hope with LOTV they make this game less apm intense because the apm required to be good in this game is hilarious and gets even worse the longer the game lasts or the better you are.
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On September 29 2013 02:48 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 02:44 foreign2 wrote:
i think the chances will have no effect on the game and i recognise many players going inactive or leaving the game. blizzard is too carefull at patching. It's annoying to see that blizzard doesn't want to listen the biggest part of this community and actually make this game fun to play. instead they continue focusing on "the balance" and messed the league system up. they simply do everything for not making this game fun and just listen the top 1% of the community.
For good 90% of community the best way to make SC2 fun is to give i-win button to everyone.
What?
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 29 2013 03:08 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 02:48 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 29 2013 02:44 foreign2 wrote:
i think the chances will have no effect on the game and i recognise many players going inactive or leaving the game. blizzard is too carefull at patching. It's annoying to see that blizzard doesn't want to listen the biggest part of this community and actually make this game fun to play. instead they continue focusing on "the balance" and messed the league system up. they simply do everything for not making this game fun and just listen the top 1% of the community.
For good 90% of community the best way to make SC2 fun is to give i-win button to everyone. What?
Quoting some random friend that tried to play SC2 (and that soon enough returned to what they played before): 'Winning is fun, i liked SC2 but losing is not fun'. And trust me, he represents good 90% of community well. Team games are 'fun', cause lose is easy to blame on whoever of team mates, while winning (or losing in close game) will always be associated with own performance. There is a third category however, that seek fun in gameplay, but i dare to bet that most of players (yes, word community was wrong probably and 90% part was exaggeration, more than 2/3rds still probably) seek fun in winning, not in fun gameplay.
On September 29 2013 02:55 foreign2 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2013 02:48 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 02:44 foreign2 wrote:
i think the chances will have no effect on the game and i recognise many players going inactive or leaving the game. blizzard is too carefull at patching. It's annoying to see that blizzard doesn't want to listen the biggest part of this community and actually make this game fun to play. instead they continue focusing on "the balance" and messed the league system up. they simply do everything for not making this game fun and just listen the top 1% of the community.
Show nested quote +
For good 90% of community the best way to make SC2 fun is to give i-win button to everyone.
the problem with sc2 is that it's very frustrating if you win and even more if you lose. it's because of the gameplay you need to invest tons of energy into this game and still get punished for simple mistakes that can end the game. i hope with LOTV they make this game less apm intense because the apm required to be good in this game is hilarious and gets even worse the longer the game lasts or the better you are.
It is hilariously low, i can agree with that.
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On September 29 2013 02:55 foreign2 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2013 02:48 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 02:44 foreign2 wrote:
i think the chances will have no effect on the game and i recognise many players going inactive or leaving the game. blizzard is too carefull at patching. It's annoying to see that blizzard doesn't want to listen the biggest part of this community and actually make this game fun to play. instead they continue focusing on "the balance" and messed the league system up. they simply do everything for not making this game fun and just listen the top 1% of the community.
Show nested quote +
For good 90% of community the best way to make SC2 fun is to give i-win button to everyone.
the problem with sc2 is that it's very frustrating if you win and even more if you lose. it's because of the gameplay you need to invest tons of energy into this game and still get punished for simple mistakes that can end the game. i hope with LOTV they make this game less apm intense because the apm required to be good in this game is hilarious and gets even worse the longer the game lasts or the better you are.
Sorry but I really just can't stand this attitude - make it easier for me but imbalanced for people who do it professionally please. The only way I would deal with this as blizzard is to throw out 2 rev's of the game - the actual game and then the game with training wheels. It's so sad because this really also seems like what blizzard is saying in why they want to patch the game right now.
The reason sc2 is on the map at all is because its professionally played. This is the exact attitude that is destroying the modern world -put training wheels on everything so I can lie to myself about being good at it. RTS is supposed to be hard - if it's just for fun for you then get over the fact that you won't be winning at a high level - or plead for a second more casual friendly rev but stop trying to ruin it for the people who dedicate their life to it as professionals.
Or - go to a LOL or DOTA type game.
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On September 29 2013 07:34 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 02:55 foreign2 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2013 02:48 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 02:44 foreign2 wrote:
i think the chances will have no effect on the game and i recognise many players going inactive or leaving the game. blizzard is too carefull at patching. It's annoying to see that blizzard doesn't want to listen the biggest part of this community and actually make this game fun to play. instead they continue focusing on "the balance" and messed the league system up. they simply do everything for not making this game fun and just listen the top 1% of the community.
For good 90% of community the best way to make SC2 fun is to give i-win button to everyone.
the problem with sc2 is that it's very frustrating if you win and even more if you lose. it's because of the gameplay you need to invest tons of energy into this game and still get punished for simple mistakes that can end the game. i hope with LOTV they make this game less apm intense because the apm required to be good in this game is hilarious and gets even worse the longer the game lasts or the better you are. Sorry but I really just can't stand this attitude - make it easier for me but imbalanced for people who do it professionally please. The only way I would deal with this as blizzard is to throw out 2 rev's of the game - the actual game and then the game with training wheels. It's so sad because this really also seems like what blizzard is saying in why they want to patch the game right now. The reason sc2 is on the map at all is because its professionally played. This is the exact attitude that is destroying the modern world -put training wheels on everything so I can lie to myself about being good at it. RTS is supposed to be hard - if it's just for fun for you then get over the fact that you won't be winning at a high level - or plead for a second more casual friendly rev but stop trying to ruin it for the people who dedicate their life to it as professionals. Or - go to a LOL or DOTA type game.
While I do agree with your sentiment, I have to chime in a bit and say that SC2 needs to be more wholesome.
SC2 needs more reward for strategy. Micro and micro (mechanics) are definitely important, but there is little strategic depth in most games we watch.
The proof is in the pudding. Despite being a mirror-MU, TvT is a really popular matchup because it has the most strategic depth.
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On September 29 2013 07:48 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 07:34 DomeGetta wrote:On September 29 2013 02:55 foreign2 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2013 02:48 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 02:44 foreign2 wrote:
i think the chances will have no effect on the game and i recognise many players going inactive or leaving the game. blizzard is too carefull at patching. It's annoying to see that blizzard doesn't want to listen the biggest part of this community and actually make this game fun to play. instead they continue focusing on "the balance" and messed the league system up. they simply do everything for not making this game fun and just listen the top 1% of the community.
For good 90% of community the best way to make SC2 fun is to give i-win button to everyone.
the problem with sc2 is that it's very frustrating if you win and even more if you lose. it's because of the gameplay you need to invest tons of energy into this game and still get punished for simple mistakes that can end the game. i hope with LOTV they make this game less apm intense because the apm required to be good in this game is hilarious and gets even worse the longer the game lasts or the better you are. Sorry but I really just can't stand this attitude - make it easier for me but imbalanced for people who do it professionally please. The only way I would deal with this as blizzard is to throw out 2 rev's of the game - the actual game and then the game with training wheels. It's so sad because this really also seems like what blizzard is saying in why they want to patch the game right now. The reason sc2 is on the map at all is because its professionally played. This is the exact attitude that is destroying the modern world -put training wheels on everything so I can lie to myself about being good at it. RTS is supposed to be hard - if it's just for fun for you then get over the fact that you won't be winning at a high level - or plead for a second more casual friendly rev but stop trying to ruin it for the people who dedicate their life to it as professionals. Or - go to a LOL or DOTA type game. While I do agree with your sentiment, I have to chime in a bit and say that SC2 needs to be more wholesome. SC2 needs more reward for strategy. Micro and micro (mechanics) are definitely important, but there is little strategic depth in most games we watch. The proof is in the pudding. Despite being a mirror-MU, TvT is a really popular matchup because it has the most strategic depth.
tvt is popular because terran can play basicially anything (while using units correctly) and still get a long macro game going
tvz and especially tvp do not allow fancy (read: funto watch) openers since queens have been buffed into oblivion and the mothershipcore beeing the ultimate rush blocker in a low unit count situation 
there is a reason every terran plays greedy as fuck vs zerg and things like double rax / hellion pressure or the infamous 1-1-1 are entirely gone vs protoss.
i want to see 1 based play vs good scouting, its fun in tvt and would be fun in tvz and tvp aswell. we should not fear sc2 turning into a cheesefest, since thats soooooo easy to come by by making new maps a bit larger with more spawns
but as a matter of fact blizzard FORCES (sometimes boring) macro games by creating defensive units / structures way way more powerful than they should be in the early stages
remove the nexus canon and set the maximum number of queens per hatchery to one, reduce bunker salvage ratio or make it more expensive to build at first, yet give the MSC another useful ability ("mobile shield battery" e.g spend energy to replenish shields when clicked on by friendly protoss units) and increase its energy regeneration rate by x% when near a friendly nexus; increase queen base energy, reinstall the need for an evochamber to build spores, lower observers movement speed slighty and add a robo upgrade for obs speed
dont get me wrong, i dont want nerfs for the sake of balance, which i feel is pretty decent overall, but for more build diversity in the terran matchups
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