On September 27 2013 20:53 Lomo wrote: The biggest problem in mech TvP ist not vs ground units! I play low gm and only lose to Air toss (Tempest, Carrier), we just need something good vs Air. I mean you lose if P hits 1-2 good storms into Vikings and if u face a lot of Carrier you cant win anymore... I dont like the Tank buff at all but as a Terran Player i say why not :D !
i agree with this. the thor is the problem, that's also a reason why tvz mech is hard to do. magic box mutas ftw
I'm quite happy with the changes as a spectator. As a player the oracle buff is... nothing. Because every lower player like me will lose the oracle and never rebuilt it (so revelation late game will not appear...).
I really would like to see another speel for the oracle usable lategame. (they had in beta a thing that canceled the effect of spells). It was way to strong if i recall but it was a late game usage of it (with the anti-grab etc..) I have no idea in mind but this would be cool. Also they need to do something with the mothership. I never seen one in televised match (not saying i watched all but i watch a lot). Never in the WCS i saw it. Neither i saw a carrier.
Some units are not really present but have their usefullnesse (thor comes to mind). I think Protoss is the only race the never show all their units. For terran you can see in televised matches from marines to battlecruisers, thor, tanks, wm, ghosts raven etc... (hello mma ! corvid reactor in the research bar). Zerg show all their units too. But protoss no.
I don't care as i'm playing as zerg but from a specator point of view i would like to see all the arsenal of all the race.
Also next balance patch. I want Carriers to shoot void rays :p
Yeah, unfortunately it seems like someone from Blizz read the TL thread and saw all the whiners, and instead of changing the proposed buff like they did with the Oracle, they just scrapped it altogether. Shame about that.
yep, to much whiners about protoss, i think protoss needs some idras or clouds before they start getting cool stuff, no whiners no buff it seems
On September 27 2013 21:35 The_best32 wrote: the tank buff would break tvt.
No it would not, its too minor for that.
Even a bigger buff wouldn't really "break" TvT, it would only really hurt pure bio which is a niche style anyway. Marine/tank and mech would be viable with a stronger tank.
On September 27 2013 21:35 The_best32 wrote: the tank buff would break tvt.
No it would not, its too minor for that.
Even a bigger buff wouldn't really "break" TvT, it would only really hurt pure bio which is a niche style anyway. Marine/tank and mech would be viable with a stronger tank.
I don't think it is possible for a tank buff to ever break TvT since tank play is what people enjoy the most about TvT...
That's like complaining that you can't have a hot girlfriend who also has a good personality.
What do you know..another foreign zerg beats a Korean Terran...with the current meta..(Nerchiro vs ForGG). There must be tons of foreign Terrans rolling Korean Zergs somewhere in secret...nerf pls?
On September 27 2013 21:32 FFW_Rude wrote: I'm quite happy with the changes as a spectator. As a player the oracle buff is... nothing. Because every lower player like me will lose the oracle and never rebuilt it (so revelation late game will not appear...).
I really would like to see another speel for the oracle usable lategame. (they had in beta a thing that canceled the effect of spells). It was way to strong if i recall but it was a late game usage of it (with the anti-grab etc..) I have no idea in mind but this would be cool. Also they need to do something with the mothership. I never seen one in televised match (not saying i watched all but i watch a lot). Never in the WCS i saw it. Neither i saw a carrier.
Some units are not really present but have their usefullnesse (thor comes to mind). I think Protoss is the only race the never show all their units. For terran you can see in televised matches from marines to battlecruisers, thor, tanks, wm, ghosts raven etc... (hello mma ! corvid reactor in the research bar). Zerg show all their units too. But protoss no.
I don't care as i'm playing as zerg but from a specator point of view i would like to see all the arsenal of all the race.
Also next balance patch. I want Carriers to shoot void rays :p
Oh. And planetcracker
you can see carrier occassionally but the thing is that carrier is quite hard to get (expensive and takes forever to make)
Mothership had to be nerfed to ground because they didn't want one unit dominating the game. I wish they will give -oracle the cloaking field (as a research from fleet beacon) -mothership removed -mothership core now can be produced more than one but 1 per nexus
But I expect this changes to be happening by the time LotV comes out. Edit: what... you saw BC? when? and you highly unlikely see nukes, and useless terran upgrades. All races currently have some features that are rarely seen.
On September 27 2013 21:32 FFW_Rude wrote: I'm quite happy with the changes as a spectator. As a player the oracle buff is... nothing. Because every lower player like me will lose the oracle and never rebuilt it (so revelation late game will not appear...).
I really would like to see another speel for the oracle usable lategame. (they had in beta a thing that canceled the effect of spells). It was way to strong if i recall but it was a late game usage of it (with the anti-grab etc..) I have no idea in mind but this would be cool. Also they need to do something with the mothership. I never seen one in televised match (not saying i watched all but i watch a lot). Never in the WCS i saw it. Neither i saw a carrier.
Some units are not really present but have their usefullnesse (thor comes to mind). I think Protoss is the only race the never show all their units. For terran you can see in televised matches from marines to battlecruisers, thor, tanks, wm, ghosts raven etc... (hello mma ! corvid reactor in the research bar). Zerg show all their units too. But protoss no.
I don't care as i'm playing as zerg but from a specator point of view i would like to see all the arsenal of all the race.
Also next balance patch. I want Carriers to shoot void rays :p
Oh. And planetcracker
you can see carrier occassionally but the thing is that carrier is quite hard to get (expensive and takes forever to make)
Mothership had to be nerfed to ground because they didn't want one unit dominating the game. I wish they will give -oracle the cloaking field (as a research from fleet beacon) -mothership removed -mothership core now can be produced more than one but 1 per nexus But I expect this changes to be happening by the time LotV comes out. Edit: what... you saw BC? when? and you highly unlikely see nukes, and useless terran upgrades. All races currently have some features that are rarely seen.
If they keep the current MSC powers, it would be OP if it was 1 per nexus. Imagine 6+ time wraps...
On September 27 2013 21:32 FFW_Rude wrote: I'm quite happy with the changes as a spectator. As a player the oracle buff is... nothing. Because every lower player like me will lose the oracle and never rebuilt it (so revelation late game will not appear...).
I really would like to see another speel for the oracle usable lategame. (they had in beta a thing that canceled the effect of spells). It was way to strong if i recall but it was a late game usage of it (with the anti-grab etc..) I have no idea in mind but this would be cool. Also they need to do something with the mothership. I never seen one in televised match (not saying i watched all but i watch a lot). Never in the WCS i saw it. Neither i saw a carrier.
Some units are not really present but have their usefullnesse (thor comes to mind). I think Protoss is the only race the never show all their units. For terran you can see in televised matches from marines to battlecruisers, thor, tanks, wm, ghosts raven etc... (hello mma ! corvid reactor in the research bar). Zerg show all their units too. But protoss no.
I don't care as i'm playing as zerg but from a specator point of view i would like to see all the arsenal of all the race.
Also next balance patch. I want Carriers to shoot void rays :p
Oh. And planetcracker
you can see carrier occassionally but the thing is that carrier is quite hard to get (expensive and takes forever to make)
Mothership had to be nerfed to ground because they didn't want one unit dominating the game. I wish they will give -oracle the cloaking field (as a research from fleet beacon) -mothership removed -mothership core now can be produced more than one but 1 per nexus But I expect this changes to be happening by the time LotV comes out. Edit: what... you saw BC? when? and you highly unlikely see nukes, and useless terran upgrades. All races currently have some features that are rarely seen.
If they keep the current MSC powers, it would be OP if it was 1 per nexus. Imagine 6+ time wraps...
ooooh... didn't think about that. I just didn't want a 'hero' unit in Starcraft.
On September 27 2013 05:43 DomeGetta wrote: Ohhh so game 4 u were talking about (not newkirk) - the game where Bomber was up 3-0 and crippled him with a combat shields push.. and then followed up with marine/tank at 10:30 .. yeah that's a very standard style there.. nice siting..
Anyone have a game where the terran opens standard 3 CC into marine/tank? I'd be surprised if they did - and even if they did it would be about .05% of the total pro games played.
If bio / mine is OP why don't the stats show it?
Maybe I can put it another way - simpler for people to understand - if you took WOL right now and you gave siege tanks faster reload and made infestors require micro (hots them) - buffed mutas and ultralisks - would that balance WOL? Really try to unbiasedly and honestly answer that question. Don't forget to take away siege mode upgrade either xD. Even though it is a hilarious question - try to answer it honestly. That's what this patch does.
3 CC into marine tank? Think Bomber vs Goswser. Shows why would you buff marine tank well enough. Also, all this patch does is bring some variety to the game. Also, vipers.
Post the link - you lied about the last one with bomber vs JD on newkirk.
And yeah - the fact that bomber could beat goswer (if you aren't trolling me again) with marine/tank really speaks to it being a viable option.
Nice job ignoring the question totally by the way xD.
I have to stop adding information to my posts it seems - people choose to ignore the main ideas and focus on the supporting info.
"Lied?" So I got the maps mixed up, it was well over a month since the game took place. No need to be all dramatic. Basically people who disagree with you are not trolling. A radius nerf won't necessarily kill biomine. That's why there is a test map. Back in wings there was a big nerf to emp and every Terran thought ghosts in tvp were useless. Guess what they are still in 90% of tvps. Khaydarin amulets were removed, Protoss lamented that high Templars were "useless". Infestors were repeatedly nerfed at the end but still infestors dominated the waning months of sc2. So chill out, Terran isn't dead and you don't need to switch to lol... yet
Also slightly nerfing mine radius doesn't give you WoL Terran. You have still:
Super annoying reapers Rocket jets on medivacs Combined mech/air upgrades Free seige tech Reworked raven Hellbats 1.25 radius mines
First off, Why are you replying to a thread that wasn't directed at you? I'm sorry for saying someone lied - but I got the impression that the dude that I actually replied to was trolling me by telling me bomber played a standard marine/tank game off 3 cc when he did not. - That game on whirlwind is not a standard play - watch it - is it standard to push with combat shield marines?
Third - If you are acknowledging the game as being balanced are you then saying that half the area widow mines won't make bio/mine underpowered? I'm not sure I follow.
I did leave out the boosters - that was my mistake - but lets not pretend that once you have a flock of mutas out it's really not that difficult to throw down static and shut drops down.
What I'm saying is : If the games are competitive and balanced now - how would taking half of the area away from the widow mine splash not make them imbalanced? Try to consider the total damage output of widow mines over a game and then half it - you think that bio/mine is still going to be viable even if it is clearly beatable at the current level?
I like playing zerg too it's super fun so I'm not angry I'm just honestly confused that what I'm saying isn't more obvious to people - I understand it's only a test map so let's just wait and see - I will eat my words if the match-up doesn't get totally screwed up.
I don't know how many people need to tell you this and how many times The matchup is stale. The fact that there are barely any marine tank games should show you there is something wrong. You said pushing out with combat shield is not standard, bio tank itself is not standard anymore. Look at the diversity from other matchup. Zvp Almost all units are viable, even swarmhosts see more appearance than tanks
Blizzard is taking out bio mine style because it completely overshadows all other terran style. Mine is back to being a support unit than a unit that overpower than tanks in every way except roach play. Complaining about mine being nerf hard and bio mine doesn't work means you have no idea what this patch is about. Or even more simple way to say this would be: Blizzard wants balance win rate with a marine medivac tank mine in tvz. Not bio mine
no disrespect at all but I am honestly shocked that you aren't embarrassed to make a post like this.. you are contradicting yourself in your own post. "Blizz wants marine/tank". "No one marine tanks!" "Let's kill the style that works to force a style that doesn't (which is why no one uses it). Its OK to want to see different play styles but you can't just nerf the only one that works and hope/pray that for some reason faster tank reload will fix marine/tank vs. Z. TvP isn't "stale?" I must have forgot about all the other options T has aside from MMM....oh wait... let's buff oracles! Maybe T will start offensive turret rushing! Imagine the viewers!!
The MSC as it stands now is actually pretty damn good for a 'hero' unit. It's important and useful without being the lynchpin of a strategy which is what the Mothership was in WoL ZvP when landing a vortex was the difference between victory and defeat.
I still hate Nexus cannon though. Such a huge amount of protection for so little effort/skill (though there is interesting play with baiting it out, see Innovations TvP recently.)
On September 27 2013 23:26 iaguz wrote: The MSC as it stands now is actually pretty damn good for a 'hero' unit. It's important and useful without being the lynchpin of a strategy which is what the Mothership was in WoL ZvP when landing a vortex was the difference between victory and defeat.
I still hate Nexus cannon though. Such a huge amount of protection for so little effort/skill (though there is interesting play with baiting it out, see Innovations TvP recently.)
the most annoying fact is that unless the protoss is noob, it is almost impossible to harrass in the early game (combined with 1 zealot few sentry wall in). I wish zerglings can jump like reaper :'(
On September 27 2013 21:35 The_best32 wrote: the tank buff would break tvt.
No it would not, its too minor for that.
Even a bigger buff wouldn't really "break" TvT, it would only really hurt pure bio which is a niche style anyway. Marine/tank and mech would be viable with a stronger tank.
I think you are right. But the fact that his comment is pointing at, is that the tank buff does´t make tanks viable at all in situations they were not viable before, but strengthens them in situations were they were already strong. And it will make defensive formations in TvT quite a bit stronger. Since Bio play tries to exploit thin defensive spots in the midgame of TvT, it will make mech quite more robust there and once it goes towards lategame, mech might have an edge! Because Hellbats just tank siege tank fire better than marine/marauder does.
edit: to the other point i mentioned. We are talking about 11% attack speed. While this is a noticeable buff, it doesn´t fix the problems siege tanks have in the current meta, nor does it make up for them. Against Protoss we have to many hard counter ground units (from a possible tempest transition not to speak!!! Just think of a mech army being outranged lol) and against Zerg, we have to be mobile as terrans. Once the pressure onto Zerg stops, Terran gets just pulled apart by zergling runbies and mutalisk harassment. Tanks don´t do anything against that!
On September 27 2013 23:44 iaguz wrote: I cannot say I share your desire for cliff hopping zerglings!
I think they should give us roach not burrow but cliff climbing ability. How come an alien roach is worse than earth roach when real roaches can fly, climb, bite, and s@#$ on my room
anyway, I wish one day I can do insane micro to break through that defence. like this guy from 2:41
On September 27 2013 21:32 FFW_Rude wrote: I'm quite happy with the changes as a spectator. As a player the oracle buff is... nothing. Because every lower player like me will lose the oracle and never rebuilt it (so revelation late game will not appear...).
I really would like to see another speel for the oracle usable lategame. (they had in beta a thing that canceled the effect of spells). It was way to strong if i recall but it was a late game usage of it (with the anti-grab etc..) I have no idea in mind but this would be cool. Also they need to do something with the mothership. I never seen one in televised match (not saying i watched all but i watch a lot). Never in the WCS i saw it. Neither i saw a carrier.
Some units are not really present but have their usefullnesse (thor comes to mind). I think Protoss is the only race the never show all their units. For terran you can see in televised matches from marines to battlecruisers, thor, tanks, wm, ghosts raven etc... (hello mma ! corvid reactor in the research bar). Zerg show all their units too. But protoss no.
I don't care as i'm playing as zerg but from a specator point of view i would like to see all the arsenal of all the race.
Also next balance patch. I want Carriers to shoot void rays :p
Oh. And planetcracker
you can see carrier occassionally but the thing is that carrier is quite hard to get (expensive and takes forever to make)
Mothership had to be nerfed to ground because they didn't want one unit dominating the game. I wish they will give -oracle the cloaking field (as a research from fleet beacon) -mothership removed -mothership core now can be produced more than one but 1 per nexus
But I expect this changes to be happening by the time LotV comes out. Edit: what... you saw BC? when? and you highly unlikely see nukes, and useless terran upgrades. All races currently have some features that are rarely seen.
I know that carriers are hard to get. Hope they would make them less hard to get. But i never saw them. even occasionally but i'm watching only Wcs right now. Mothership could have his warping time redced. It's as long as the photon overcharge (so almost 30 minutes :p).
But as someone said for msc. It would be so OP.... but imagine (just for the lulz) that the terran drop on whirlwind and the toss goes 3photon overcharge on 3nexis). Pictures it. Laugh. Then ban this idea :p
On September 27 2013 23:44 iaguz wrote: I cannot say I share your desire for cliff hopping zerglings!
I think they should give us roach not burrow but cliff climbing ability. How come an alien roach is worse than earth roach when real roaches can fly, climb, bite, and s@#$ on my room
Because Roaches are easily massable units and if they could go up cliffs then bunkers stop being useful and you kinda need those to beat most roach motherfuckery.
On September 27 2013 23:44 iaguz wrote: I cannot say I share your desire for cliff hopping zerglings!
I think they should give us roach not burrow but cliff climbing ability. How come an alien roach is worse than earth roach when real roaches can fly, climb, bite, and s@#$ on my room
Because Roaches are easily massable units and if they could go up cliffs then bunkers stop being useful and you kinda need those to beat most roach motherfuckery.
I know... it never gonna happen like they will never give me reaver back :'( Anyway, sorry for other ppl who want to discuss about the possible changes. :p
EPT
