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On September 27 2013 05:50 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 05:47 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 27 2013 05:43 DomeGetta wrote:
Ohhh so game 4 u were talking about (not newkirk) - the game where Bomber was up 3-0 and crippled him with a combat shields push.. and then followed up with marine/tank at 10:30 .. yeah that's a very standard style there.. nice siting..
Anyone have a game where the terran opens standard 3 CC into marine/tank? I'd be surprised if they did - and even if they did it would be about .05% of the total pro games played.
If bio / mine is OP why don't the stats show it?
Maybe I can put it another way - simpler for people to understand - if you took WOL right now and you gave siege tanks faster reload and made infestors require micro (hots them) - buffed mutas and ultralisks - would that balance WOL? Really try to unbiasedly and honestly answer that question. Don't forget to take away siege mode upgrade either xD. Even though it is a hilarious question - try to answer it honestly. That's what this patch does. 3 CC into marine tank? Think Bomber vs Goswser. Shows why would you buff marine tank well enough. Also, all this patch does is bring some variety to the game. Also, vipers. Post the link - you lied about the last one with bomber vs JD on newkirk. And yeah - the fact that bomber could beat goswer (if you aren't trolling me again) with marine/tank really speaks to it being a viable option. Nice job ignoring the question totally by the way xD. I have to stop adding information to my posts it seems - people choose to ignore the main ideas and focus on the supporting info.
"Lied?" So I got the maps mixed up, it was well over a month since the game took place. No need to be all dramatic. Basically people who disagree with you are not trolling. A radius nerf won't necessarily kill biomine. That's why there is a test map. Back in wings there was a big nerf to emp and every Terran thought ghosts in tvp were useless. Guess what they are still in 90% of tvps. Khaydarin amulets were removed, Protoss lamented that high Templars were "useless". Infestors were repeatedly nerfed at the end but still infestors dominated the waning months of sc2. So chill out, Terran isn't dead and you don't need to switch to lol... yet 
Also slightly nerfing mine radius doesn't give you WoL Terran. You have still:
Super annoying reapers
Rocket jets on medivacs
Combined mech/air upgrades
Free seige tech
Reworked raven
Hellbats
1.25 radius mines
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On September 26 2013 22:03 a176 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 21:17 S1eth wrote:On September 26 2013 19:41 Lorch wrote:On September 26 2013 19:09 liberate71 wrote:On September 26 2013 04:12 sigm wrote:On September 26 2013 04:07 ZAiNs wrote:
DTs :/ Yeah, unfortunately it seems like someone from Blizz read the TL thread and saw all the whiners, and instead of changing the proposed buff like they did with the Oracle, they just scrapped it altogether. Shame about that. Uh... wouldn't that mean that all the 'buff' changes would be under the 'Disapprove' category? as 2/3 of the people would vote against it? Oh wait, no, that's not what happened. Way to be wrong. Shame on Blizzard for listening to the community and trying to create a better game. Those are often two different things. Why are you generalizing so much? We don't live in the world where you can either scrap anything the community down votes or they don't listen at all. The point wasn't that every time people cry the immediatly jump ship, but rather that there are times where they get super bad feedback and immediatly abondon an idea rather than trying to tweak it. Best exmplae for this is the warhound: They spent 2+ fucking years working on that thing, then everyone qqd for one week when only pros had beta and they just removed the entire unit. Obv there are cases, like this time around the oracle (though they have been talking about an oracle change for months now) they do adjust when bad feedback comes in, people are just complaing that it isn't happening often enough. You have absolutely no idea how video game development works. Blizzard worked 2 years on the WHOLE expansion, including all changes to battle.net. The warhound is just this tiny little asset that they created, which still appears in the campaign mode, so it wasn't even scrapped. The same thing happens to many other units such as the diamondback, the lurker, the firebat, the wraith, etc. Moreover, Blizzard realized that the warhound's role overlaps too much with the marauder and takes away from what makes Mech play different from bio. so i guess they didn't realize how much the widow mine overlaps with the siege tank in those two years?
Where were you for the last year? Do you even remember the "shredder"? And the first iteration of the widow mine, which sticks to a unit and blows it up after 10 seconds?
And for gods sake, stop with the "two years" BS.
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On September 27 2013 07:56 S1eth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 22:03 a176 wrote:On September 26 2013 21:17 S1eth wrote:On September 26 2013 19:41 Lorch wrote:On September 26 2013 19:09 liberate71 wrote:On September 26 2013 04:12 sigm wrote:On September 26 2013 04:07 ZAiNs wrote:
DTs :/ Yeah, unfortunately it seems like someone from Blizz read the TL thread and saw all the whiners, and instead of changing the proposed buff like they did with the Oracle, they just scrapped it altogether. Shame about that. Uh... wouldn't that mean that all the 'buff' changes would be under the 'Disapprove' category? as 2/3 of the people would vote against it? Oh wait, no, that's not what happened. Way to be wrong. Shame on Blizzard for listening to the community and trying to create a better game. Those are often two different things. Why are you generalizing so much? We don't live in the world where you can either scrap anything the community down votes or they don't listen at all. The point wasn't that every time people cry the immediatly jump ship, but rather that there are times where they get super bad feedback and immediatly abondon an idea rather than trying to tweak it. Best exmplae for this is the warhound: They spent 2+ fucking years working on that thing, then everyone qqd for one week when only pros had beta and they just removed the entire unit. Obv there are cases, like this time around the oracle (though they have been talking about an oracle change for months now) they do adjust when bad feedback comes in, people are just complaing that it isn't happening often enough. You have absolutely no idea how video game development works. Blizzard worked 2 years on the WHOLE expansion, including all changes to battle.net. The warhound is just this tiny little asset that they created, which still appears in the campaign mode, so it wasn't even scrapped. The same thing happens to many other units such as the diamondback, the lurker, the firebat, the wraith, etc. Moreover, Blizzard realized that the warhound's role overlaps too much with the marauder and takes away from what makes Mech play different from bio. so i guess they didn't realize how much the widow mine overlaps with the siege tank in those two years? Where were you for the last year? Do you even remember the "shredder"? And the first iteration of the widow mine, which sticks to a unit and blows it up after 10 seconds? And for gods sake, stop with the "two years" BS.
Don't feed the troll. He doesn't seem to be here for discussion.
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On September 27 2013 06:42 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 05:50 DomeGetta wrote:On September 27 2013 05:47 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 27 2013 05:43 DomeGetta wrote:
Ohhh so game 4 u were talking about (not newkirk) - the game where Bomber was up 3-0 and crippled him with a combat shields push.. and then followed up with marine/tank at 10:30 .. yeah that's a very standard style there.. nice siting..
Anyone have a game where the terran opens standard 3 CC into marine/tank? I'd be surprised if they did - and even if they did it would be about .05% of the total pro games played.
If bio / mine is OP why don't the stats show it?
Maybe I can put it another way - simpler for people to understand - if you took WOL right now and you gave siege tanks faster reload and made infestors require micro (hots them) - buffed mutas and ultralisks - would that balance WOL? Really try to unbiasedly and honestly answer that question. Don't forget to take away siege mode upgrade either xD. Even though it is a hilarious question - try to answer it honestly. That's what this patch does. 3 CC into marine tank? Think Bomber vs Goswser. Shows why would you buff marine tank well enough. Also, all this patch does is bring some variety to the game. Also, vipers. Post the link - you lied about the last one with bomber vs JD on newkirk. And yeah - the fact that bomber could beat goswer (if you aren't trolling me again) with marine/tank really speaks to it being a viable option. Nice job ignoring the question totally by the way xD. I have to stop adding information to my posts it seems - people choose to ignore the main ideas and focus on the supporting info. "Lied?" So I got the maps mixed up, it was well over a month since the game took place. No need to be all dramatic. Basically people who disagree with you are not trolling. A radius nerf won't necessarily kill biomine. That's why there is a test map. Back in wings there was a big nerf to emp and every Terran thought ghosts in tvp were useless. Guess what they are still in 90% of tvps. Khaydarin amulets were removed, Protoss lamented that high Templars were "useless". Infestors were repeatedly nerfed at the end but still infestors dominated the waning months of sc2. So chill out, Terran isn't dead and you don't need to switch to lol... yet Also slightly nerfing mine radius doesn't give you WoL Terran. You have still: Super annoying reapers Rocket jets on medivacs Combined mech/air upgrades Free seige tech Reworked raven Hellbats 1.25 radius mines
First off,
Why are you replying to a thread that wasn't directed at you?
I'm sorry for saying someone lied - but I got the impression that the dude that I actually replied to was trolling me by telling me bomber played a standard marine/tank game off 3 cc when he did not.
- That game on whirlwind is not a standard play - watch it - is it standard to push with combat shield marines?
Third - If you are acknowledging the game as being balanced are you then saying that half the area widow mines won't make bio/mine underpowered? I'm not sure I follow.
I did leave out the boosters - that was my mistake - but lets not pretend that once you have a flock of mutas out it's really not that difficult to throw down static and shut drops down.
What I'm saying is : If the games are competitive and balanced now - how would taking half of the area away from the widow mine splash not make them imbalanced? Try to consider the total damage output of widow mines over a game and then half it - you think that bio/mine is still going to be viable even if it is clearly beatable at the current level?
I like playing zerg too it's super fun so I'm not angry I'm just honestly confused that what I'm saying isn't more obvious to people - I understand it's only a test map so let's just wait and see - I will eat my words if the match-up doesn't get totally screwed up.
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I wonder when would they look at transformation servos.
I hope they will change as:
50/50 but still 110s. (to prevent transition from hellion contain to genocide  )
But this upgrade also benefits tank, thor, viking, and hellbat/hellion
Basically, it will decrease transformation duration by 1~2 seconds and enables hellbat/hellion transformation.
I started to think this after I saw the different, cooler icon for this upgrade
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I'm really interested to see if players will break out some cool new burrow strats, or whether it just ends up being used for stronger ZvP timing attacks. I don't think it will be quite the same as blink (especially since Roaches can't shoot up, and so have a lot of hardcounters that Stalkers don't), but I do think there's a chance for skilled players with high apm to get a lot more out of a well-microed Roach army with tunneling claws.
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On September 27 2013 11:07 futech wrote:
Terran has won nearly all the major HoTS Tournies. Why do you need to make Terran/Vikings more OP. Might as well give SCV guns too. This will just make SCV pulls even stronger if you upgrade +1 attack/armor vikings.
I think SCV's should lose hp if they move away from CC to deter scv pulls by 5 hp maybe it'll help.
Man, you don't know anything about Terran. I mean, the reason we don't give SCVs guns is because we don't want to deal with an SCV uprising. Just look at the SCV pulls, clearly they're OP. Now, the question is why? Is it because of the MM? Well, they have a tendency to lose alone. Then you add SCVs and instantly, you can win the game. Thus clearly SCVs are OP. Can't deal with revolutions in the middle of games.
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This will just make SCV pulls even stronger if you upgrade +1 attack/armor vikings.
I think SCV's should lose hp if they move away from CC to deter scv pulls by 5 hp maybe it'll help.
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On September 27 2013 11:12 futech wrote:
This will just make SCV pulls even stronger if you upgrade +1 attack/armor vikings.
I think SCV's should lose hp if they move away from CC to deter scv pulls by 5 hp maybe it'll help.
Does anyone actually think TvP is T favored right now? Or is this just you thinking worker pulls are obnoxious? Also, whats your problem with vikings?
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SCV pulling is kind of obnoxious but only when it's so common which it sort of is right now. I'm not sure if the answer to that is just to wait a bunch and hope terrans just stop doing it if Protoss gets too good at stopping it or to fundamentally change how tvp works, like making them not able to chonoboost forges so they can't hit that nasty 3/3 timing or something (not saying they should just flat out nerf protoss but I wouldn't mind being incentivised differently during the matchup)
Also combining mech and air upgrades doesn't do shit to making that push any stronger, dunno what your saying there.
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On September 27 2013 12:32 iaguz wrote:
SCV pulling is kind of obnoxious but only when it's so common which it sort of is right now. I'm not sure if the answer to that is just to wait a bunch and hope terrans just stop doing it if Protoss gets too good at stopping it or to fundamentally change how tvp works, like making them not able to chonoboost forges so they can't hit that nasty 3/3 timing or something (not saying they should just flat out nerf protoss but I wouldn't mind being incentivised differently during the matchup)
Also combining mech and air upgrades doesn't do shit to making that push any stronger, dunno what your saying there.
I think the timings will eventually get figured out completely and it will stop working. There are still other ways to win, this is just a really good one right now.
Personally, my favorite part of PvT both playing and watching is the HT/Ghost dance. Find ways to make that the more common/standard way to play, whether it be some sort of change to Colossus or decreasing Terran upgrade times so they don't have to SCV pull before those nasty Protoss timings, idk. I feel like other than the SCV pull silliness, PvT is in a pretty good place right now.
Hell, I think most matchups are in a pretty good place right now, except for PvZ. I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more variety in TvZ, but each matchup has a couple different ways you can reliably play right now and I think it's a pretty good time for SC2.
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On September 27 2013 09:26 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 06:42 MstrJinbo wrote:On September 27 2013 05:50 DomeGetta wrote:On September 27 2013 05:47 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 27 2013 05:43 DomeGetta wrote:
Ohhh so game 4 u were talking about (not newkirk) - the game where Bomber was up 3-0 and crippled him with a combat shields push.. and then followed up with marine/tank at 10:30 .. yeah that's a very standard style there.. nice siting..
Anyone have a game where the terran opens standard 3 CC into marine/tank? I'd be surprised if they did - and even if they did it would be about .05% of the total pro games played.
If bio / mine is OP why don't the stats show it?
Maybe I can put it another way - simpler for people to understand - if you took WOL right now and you gave siege tanks faster reload and made infestors require micro (hots them) - buffed mutas and ultralisks - would that balance WOL? Really try to unbiasedly and honestly answer that question. Don't forget to take away siege mode upgrade either xD. Even though it is a hilarious question - try to answer it honestly. That's what this patch does. 3 CC into marine tank? Think Bomber vs Goswser. Shows why would you buff marine tank well enough. Also, all this patch does is bring some variety to the game. Also, vipers. Post the link - you lied about the last one with bomber vs JD on newkirk. And yeah - the fact that bomber could beat goswer (if you aren't trolling me again) with marine/tank really speaks to it being a viable option. Nice job ignoring the question totally by the way xD. I have to stop adding information to my posts it seems - people choose to ignore the main ideas and focus on the supporting info. "Lied?" So I got the maps mixed up, it was well over a month since the game took place. No need to be all dramatic. Basically people who disagree with you are not trolling. A radius nerf won't necessarily kill biomine. That's why there is a test map. Back in wings there was a big nerf to emp and every Terran thought ghosts in tvp were useless. Guess what they are still in 90% of tvps. Khaydarin amulets were removed, Protoss lamented that high Templars were "useless". Infestors were repeatedly nerfed at the end but still infestors dominated the waning months of sc2. So chill out, Terran isn't dead and you don't need to switch to lol... yet Also slightly nerfing mine radius doesn't give you WoL Terran. You have still: Super annoying reapers Rocket jets on medivacs Combined mech/air upgrades Free seige tech Reworked raven Hellbats 1.25 radius mines First off, Why are you replying to a thread that wasn't directed at you? I'm sorry for saying someone lied - but I got the impression that the dude that I actually replied to was trolling me by telling me bomber played a standard marine/tank game off 3 cc when he did not. - That game on whirlwind is not a standard play - watch it - is it standard to push with combat shield marines? Third - If you are acknowledging the game as being balanced are you then saying that half the area widow mines won't make bio/mine underpowered? I'm not sure I follow. I did leave out the boosters - that was my mistake - but lets not pretend that once you have a flock of mutas out it's really not that difficult to throw down static and shut drops down. What I'm saying is : If the games are competitive and balanced now - how would taking half of the area away from the widow mine splash not make them imbalanced? Try to consider the total damage output of widow mines over a game and then half it - you think that bio/mine is still going to be viable even if it is clearly beatable at the current level? I like playing zerg too it's super fun so I'm not angry I'm just honestly confused that what I'm saying isn't more obvious to people - I understand it's only a test map so let's just wait and see - I will eat my words if the match-up doesn't get totally screwed up.
I don't know how many people need to tell you this and how many times
The matchup is stale.
The fact that there are barely any marine tank games should show you there is something wrong.
You said pushing out with combat shield is not standard, bio tank itself is not standard anymore.
Look at the diversity from other matchup.
Zvp
Almost all units are viable, even swarmhosts see more appearance than tanks
Blizzard is taking out bio mine style because it completely overshadows all other terran style.
Mine is back to being a support unit than a unit that overpower than tanks in every way except roach play.
Complaining about mine being nerf hard and bio mine doesn't work means you have no idea what this patch is about.
Or even more simple way to say this would be:
Blizzard wants balance win rate with a marine medivac tank mine in tvz. Not bio mine
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If Tvz has 3 viable options, bio mine, marine tank and mech then that would be a healthy matchup. Each composition would require Zerg to play differently (probably? can see more infestor usage vs marine tank but roach hydra is never gonna happen)
As it is this is not the case it's almost all bio mine nowadays. Bomber plays a unique style of TvZ, consider him the exception and not the rule of TvZ
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Good changes but neither of them makes SC2 less unidimensional, problem is still deep in the core of the game.
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Russian Federation262 Posts
On September 27 2013 14:53 ishida66 wrote:
Good changes but neither of them makes SC2 less unidimensional, problem is still deep in the core of the game.
I agree with that. The last chance for blizzard is lotv. If theyll still follow their course (like they did when HOTS has been released) the game will die. They must communicate with community more, consult with pro players more and hire some new fresh brains to implement something new. LoTV is the las chance, please, dont let this game die, im playing sc about 14 years, remember that good times before BW came out and after and i dont wanna this game die. I still believe Blizz can do something special and sc2 will rize again. I really like that SC is a sologame compared to Dota2 and LoL (i also have about 3k games in LoL and about 200 games of Dota2 and have been playing original Dota and WoW-Arena on 2500rating)
Its nice, that u can play and dont rely on your teammates. Its pretty awesome, but we need something to communicate with people more, because always im playing ladder i feel im alone - thats not nice. And as i know many people complain about that. WC3 was more social, SC:BW was too. Please, note this, Blizz!
Sorry for bad eng, i tried my best 
P.S. Also, im REALLY EXCITED of watching SC2. Its much much Much better, then watching LoL and Dota2 and other games.
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On September 27 2013 15:20 wishr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 14:53 ishida66 wrote:
Good changes but neither of them makes SC2 less unidimensional, problem is still deep in the core of the game. I agree with that. The last chanse for blizzard is lotv. If theyll still follow their course (like they did when HOTS has been released) the game will die. They must communicate with community more, consult with pro players more and hire some new fresh brains to implement something new. LoTV is the las chance.
I'm actually waiting for wc4 or sc3 :p
I don't think they will change at LotV, sadly. (because that will be too drastic for tournaments)
oh well, I think I should play hearthstone to have less sore wrist :D
Blizzard, BETA KEY PLZZZz
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On September 27 2013 10:35 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I'm really interested to see if players will break out some cool new burrow strats, or whether it just ends up being used for stronger ZvP timing attacks. I don't think it will be quite the same as blink (especially since Roaches can't shoot up, and so have a lot of hardcounters that Stalkers don't), but I do think there's a chance for skilled players with high apm to get a lot more out of a well-microed Roach army with tunneling claws.
Yes! Ppl should remember that T claw not only makes roach move underground but also grants 10 HP/sec regeneration.
That is sick (and thats why it is still hard to get )
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On September 27 2013 15:20 wishr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 14:53 ishida66 wrote:
Good changes but neither of them makes SC2 less unidimensional, problem is still deep in the core of the game. I agree with that. The last chance for blizzard is lotv. If theyll still follow their course (like they did when HOTS has been released) the game will die. They must communicate with community more, consult with pro players more and hire some new fresh brains to implement something new. LoTV is the las chance, please, dont let this game die, im playing sc about 14 years, remember that good times before BW came out and after and i dont wanna this game die. I still believe Blizz can do something special and sc2 will rize again. I really like that SC is a sologame compared to Dota2 and LoL (i also have about 3k games in LoL and about 200 games of Dota2 and have been playing original Dota and WoW-Arena on 2500rating) Its nice, that u can play and dont rely on your teammates. Its pretty awesome, but we need something to communicate with people more, because always im playing ladder i feel im alone - thats not nice. And as i know many people complain about that. WC3 was more social, SC:BW was too. Please, note this, Blizz! Sorry for bad eng, i tried my best
This game WILL die because it is the nature of all games to die.
I predict it'll probably happen 2-3 years post LotV. I also imagine the hype engine (and hopefully just good design) of LotV will keep it going strong.
I hope that Blizz will take all the lessons they learn from Starcraft 2 and make an even better dueling game after it. Perhaps wishful thinking. I only hope this game comes out as SC2 wraps up so we have something else for 1v1 RTS fans to cling to. And I hope it's brilliant.
Or maybe that Day 9 game will be cool too. I don't fucken know, maybe?
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Russian Federation262 Posts
On September 27 2013 15:40 iaguz wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 27 2013 15:20 wishr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 14:53 ishida66 wrote:
Good changes but neither of them makes SC2 less unidimensional, problem is still deep in the core of the game. I agree with that. The last chance for blizzard is lotv. If theyll still follow their course (like they did when HOTS has been released) the game will die. They must communicate with community more, consult with pro players more and hire some new fresh brains to implement something new. LoTV is the las chance, please, dont let this game die, im playing sc about 14 years, remember that good times before BW came out and after and i dont wanna this game die. I still believe Blizz can do something special and sc2 will rize again. I really like that SC is a sologame compared to Dota2 and LoL (i also have about 3k games in LoL and about 200 games of Dota2 and have been playing original Dota and WoW-Arena on 2500rating) Its nice, that u can play and dont rely on your teammates. Its pretty awesome, but we need something to communicate with people more, because always im playing ladder i feel im alone - thats not nice. And as i know many people complain about that. WC3 was more social, SC:BW was too. Please, note this, Blizz! Sorry for bad eng, i tried my best This game WILL die because it is the nature of all games to die. I predict it'll probably happen 2-3 years post LotV. I also imagine the hype engine (and hopefully just good design) of LotV will keep it going strong. I hope that Blizz will take all the lessons they learn from Starcraft 2 and make an even better dueling game after it. Perhaps wishful thinking. I only hope this game comes out as SC2 wraps up so we have something else for 1v1 RTS fans to cling to. And I hope it's brilliant.
Id really like something like WoW arena but not WoW, just something fresh.
Also, i think creating dota-allstars is a marketing fail.
But it is another story Lets talk about balance and implementations! ^^
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EPT
