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On September 27 2013 01:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 01:46 MockHamill wrote:
I agree with all of the changes but:
Tempest needs a nerf or mech can never become viable.
If Protoss starts to mass Tempest Terran need to throw away all tanks and hellbats and start to mass vikings and ravens or die. If you have 10+ Tanks and 15+Hellbats you can never match the Tempest since they are so extremly supply effeceint.
Please increse Tempest food cost to 6 or lower Tempest hitpoints. Well, now that upgrades are shared, you swap starports to reactors and spam vikings while doing constant hellion runbys with your excess hellbats....
tempest against terran?
raven/viking? pdd is such a nasty thing to do to tempests...
that's not to say that it's simply gg i got raven/viking you got tempest.. it makes a nice dynamic.
Also I think oracles need a redesign, i'm glad they can harrass but it's not like it takes any skill to send an oracle over and beam probes a little bit. Even banshee micro is more respectable.
And mech upgrades combined won't help mech.. so why do it.
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I would actually like to see Tempest with ground support vs. Vikings and Ravens supporting Siege Tanks. I saw a little of it in beta HOTS, and it was cool.
But I don't think 10% faster firing tanks will make up for Blink Stalkers and Immortals.
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On September 27 2013 05:07 Crisium wrote:
I would actually like to see Tempest with ground support vs. Vikings and Ravens supporting Siege Tanks. I saw a little of it in beta HOTS, and it was cool.
But I don't think 10% faster firing tanks will make up for Blink Stalkers and Immortals.
Blink stalkers is fine, you just keep 1/3 of your tanks unsieged and those who blink forward melt.
The problem is immortals.
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I just want to say, cutest balance patch post evah.
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How about make it if two dark templar merge the resulting archon is always-cloaked...
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On September 27 2013 05:20 DRTnOOber wrote:
How about make it if two dark templar merge the resulting archon is always-cloaked...
The new Dark Archon? So dark, he's entered the void itself.
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On September 27 2013 05:21 Crisium wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 05:20 DRTnOOber wrote:
How about make it if two dark templar merge the resulting archon is always-cloaked... The new Dark Archon? So dark, he's entered the void itself.
He is the void, and has templars entering him all the time!
Wait...
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On September 27 2013 03:22 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 03:21 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On September 27 2013 03:01 FLuE wrote:
I like the direction of the changes trying to open up the game a bit. I still feel some of it is a bit misguided.
For example, the mine splash damage change is helpful but the problem is more about detection and position. They should find more ways players have to micro against them instead of telling players to just play the same but you will lose less. Changes like greater detection range for overseer or allowing changlings to set off mines or detect in general would be more helpful.
For Zerg I think the roach change is great and should have happened long ago. I think we will see some cool roach burrow micro similar to blink micro.
For Terran siege tank doesn't seem like enough of a change. What if the transformation servos also reduced the time it takes to siege and unsiege tanks and transform Vikings? I see that being more helpful to position and reposition faster, move out from blinding cloud, and save tanks from dying in siege mode if caught.
Lastly, Protoss needs more love to open options up. Everything seems focused on Protoss harassment options but the race needs more than that. Ahhhh, I like that idea a lot. Although a strong buff, I don't think its what people who want "mech play" wanted...
Every bit helps. I would rather improve mech in bits and pieces so it slots into the game a bit more naturally, rather than try to vastly redesign it all at once and turn everything on its head.
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I wish they would add more macro mechanics and try changing the ones they have a bit. And by this I mean abilities, that increase the skill ceiling - essentially making it harder to play the game at the top level, but having no real impact on lower level players. Currently it seems like having really good macro all game is very often completely negated by a single bad engagement or micro-mistake.
One idea could be putting MULES on a timer similar to larva inject. The timer could be slightly less than the energy build-up rate, so it was possible to spend built up energy - e.g. X seconds energy build-up time and X-5 seconds cast delay.
They should of course also add new abilities. Protoss players, for example, are painfully lacking in macro abilities (the kind that set a limit on your progress if you aren't constantly aware of it. Worse case - they loose a bit of energy on a Nexus from being maxed. Even their gateway units practically build themselves. You just have to shift click that shit in whenever you need them anywhere on the map). I'm not saying that any of the races don't have their own challenges compared to the other races, but adding more macro abilities, if balanced across all races, would add a lot to the game, I think.
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Ohhh so game 4 u were talking about (not newkirk) - the game where Bomber was up 3-0 and crippled him with a combat shields push.. and then followed up with marine/tank at 10:30 .. yeah that's a very standard style there.. nice siting..
Anyone have a game where the terran opens standard 3 CC into marine/tank? I'd be surprised if they did - and even if they did it would be about .05% of the total pro games played.
If bio / mine is OP why don't the stats show it?
Maybe I can put it another way - simpler for people to understand - if you took WOL right now and you gave siege tanks faster reload and made infestors require micro (hots them) - buffed mutas and ultralisks - would that balance WOL? Really try to unbiasedly and honestly answer that question. Don't forget to take away siege mode upgrade either xD. Even though it is a hilarious question - try to answer it honestly. That's what this patch does.
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Also I think oracles need a redesign, i'm glad they can harrass but it's not like it takes any skill to send an oracle over and beam probes a little bit. Even banshee micro is more respectable.
Virtually no micro in the game, or even in BW, is hard in the abstract. I am by no means a pro, and I don't even play Terran, but if I play a test map or custom game and just work on splitting marines vs. banelings I can do it ok. In BW, I could do the same thing with marines vs. lurkers. There are almost no micro tricks in any form of Starcraft that are actually that difficult to pull off on their own.
The trick is actually doing it in a game while you have to manage a million other things. That's the difference between an average schmuck like me and someone who's actually good--I can split some marines against banelings, but someone whose actually good can do that while also macroing perfectly, controlling their other units, etc...whereas if I'm wasting time focusing on splitting, my macro is gonna slip badly and I'm going to struggle to control all my other units.
Making the Oracle better raises the skill ceiling not because pushing a button to turn on Pulsar Beam is so difficult, but because Oracles benefit a lot from controlling them constantly, staying active with them, and babysitting them to keep them alive. If Oracles aren't doing damage, they're wasted resources. They're too expensive to throw away. They're too fragile to fire and forget. Its not that hard to fly into a base one time to harass. Its flying in once and getting out before you lose the unit, then letting it regen, then coming back for another pass, then getting out again, then looping around to hit somewhere else, then poking to try to find a spot thats not protected by static defense, then going hunting for small groups of light units out on the map, all the while retreating any time the unit is at risk, all without letting your macro slip or losing control of your other units.
Basically, its a unit you can't turtle with, that you can't a-move, that you can't throw away on a suicide attack, that you can't be stupid about using--the only way to get the most out of your Oracle, unless you just completely catch the opponent with his pants down, is to have good enough APM and gamesense to stay constantly active with it throughout the game without losing it, all without letting other parts of your game slip.
And that's just one Oracle. Where things get really fun are the playstyles that use more than one, so the Protoss doesn't just have to babysit and actively control one of them, but 2 or 3 or even 4. At that point, the APM and multitasking abilities required to effectively get the most out of all of them at once is considerable.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 27 2013 05:43 DomeGetta wrote:
Ohhh so game 4 u were talking about (not newkirk) - the game where Bomber was up 3-0 and crippled him with a combat shields push.. and then followed up with marine/tank at 10:30 .. yeah that's a very standard style there.. nice siting..
Anyone have a game where the terran opens standard 3 CC into marine/tank? I'd be surprised if they did - and even if they did it would be about .05% of the total pro games played.
If bio / mine is OP why don't the stats show it?
Maybe I can put it another way - simpler for people to understand - if you took WOL right now and you gave siege tanks faster reload and made infestors require micro (hots them) - buffed mutas and ultralisks - would that balance WOL? Really try to unbiasedly and honestly answer that question. Don't forget to take away siege mode upgrade either xD. Even though it is a hilarious question - try to answer it honestly. That's what this patch does.
3 CC into marine tank? Think Bomber vs Goswser. Shows why would you buff marine tank well enough. Also, all this patch does is bring some variety to the game. Also, vipers.
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On September 27 2013 05:20 DRTnOOber wrote:
How about make it if two dark templar merge the resulting archon is always-cloaked...
That would be pretty sexy. It'd have to be a bit different to the standard Archon somehow to balance the invisibleness.
I'm still holding out hope for the return of the D'Archon in LoTV...
The oracle speed seems too much, but other than that its an awesome set of changes.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 27 2013 05:03 DuneBug wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 01:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 27 2013 01:46 MockHamill wrote:
I agree with all of the changes but:
Tempest needs a nerf or mech can never become viable.
If Protoss starts to mass Tempest Terran need to throw away all tanks and hellbats and start to mass vikings and ravens or die. If you have 10+ Tanks and 15+Hellbats you can never match the Tempest since they are so extremly supply effeceint.
Please increse Tempest food cost to 6 or lower Tempest hitpoints. Well, now that upgrades are shared, you swap starports to reactors and spam vikings while doing constant hellion runbys with your excess hellbats.... tempest against terran? raven/viking? pdd is such a nasty thing to do to tempests... that's not to say that it's simply gg i got raven/viking you got tempest.. it makes a nice dynamic. Also I think oracles need a redesign, i'm glad they can harrass but it's not like it takes any skill to send an oracle over and beam probes a little bit. Even banshee micro is more respectable. And mech upgrades combined won't help mech.. so why do it.
Tempest right now is standard way to finish the game that accidentally went long with small advantage for toss.
Next, oracle is fine and i like direction blizzard is going with it, scrapping the idea of harasser as main function and using it as a decent scouting tool with maphax.
Combined mech upgrades MAY help. Especially considering that now BC-Raven transition comes into full strength long before zerg may have +3 armor on flyers or considering the fact, that now vikings share attack upgrades with hellbats (ForGG approves).
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On September 27 2013 05:47 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 05:43 DomeGetta wrote:
Ohhh so game 4 u were talking about (not newkirk) - the game where Bomber was up 3-0 and crippled him with a combat shields push.. and then followed up with marine/tank at 10:30 .. yeah that's a very standard style there.. nice siting..
Anyone have a game where the terran opens standard 3 CC into marine/tank? I'd be surprised if they did - and even if they did it would be about .05% of the total pro games played.
If bio / mine is OP why don't the stats show it?
Maybe I can put it another way - simpler for people to understand - if you took WOL right now and you gave siege tanks faster reload and made infestors require micro (hots them) - buffed mutas and ultralisks - would that balance WOL? Really try to unbiasedly and honestly answer that question. Don't forget to take away siege mode upgrade either xD. Even though it is a hilarious question - try to answer it honestly. That's what this patch does. 3 CC into marine tank? Think Bomber vs Goswser. Shows why would you buff marine tank well enough. Also, all this patch does is bring some variety to the game. Also, vipers.
Post the link - you lied about the last one with bomber vs JD on newkirk.
And yeah - the fact that bomber could beat goswer (if you aren't trolling me again) with marine/tank really speaks to it being a viable option.
Nice job ignoring the question totally by the way xD.
I have to stop adding information to my posts it seems - people choose to ignore the main ideas and focus on the supporting info.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 27 2013 05:50 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 05:47 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 27 2013 05:43 DomeGetta wrote:
Ohhh so game 4 u were talking about (not newkirk) - the game where Bomber was up 3-0 and crippled him with a combat shields push.. and then followed up with marine/tank at 10:30 .. yeah that's a very standard style there.. nice siting..
Anyone have a game where the terran opens standard 3 CC into marine/tank? I'd be surprised if they did - and even if they did it would be about .05% of the total pro games played.
If bio / mine is OP why don't the stats show it?
Maybe I can put it another way - simpler for people to understand - if you took WOL right now and you gave siege tanks faster reload and made infestors require micro (hots them) - buffed mutas and ultralisks - would that balance WOL? Really try to unbiasedly and honestly answer that question. Don't forget to take away siege mode upgrade either xD. Even though it is a hilarious question - try to answer it honestly. That's what this patch does. 3 CC into marine tank? Think Bomber vs Goswser. Shows why would you buff marine tank well enough. Also, all this patch does is bring some variety to the game. Also, vipers. Post the link - you lied about the last one with bomber vs JD on newkirk. And yeah - the fact that bomber could beat goswer (if you aren't trolling me again) with marine/tank really speaks to it being a viable option. Nice job ignoring the question totally by the way xD. I have to stop adding information to my posts it seems - people choose to ignore the main ideas and focus on the supporting info.
Quote me, i never mentioned Bomber vs JD series. That's first.
Next, Bomber vs Goswser is fine demonstration of reasons why marine tank sucks, not the other way around, do not take my words figuratively.
I do not care about question, since bio-mine is balanced on knife's edge as in, it is defined by who can keep their attention all game long and i dare to bet, that watching out for random mines takes slightly more of it. Also, your main idea is? If bio-mine is fine, why would you change anything at all? Well, if it is your idea, that's bad idea for a game, support of which is not scraped to an extent of gameplay bugs not getting fixed.
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On September 27 2013 05:10 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 05:07 Crisium wrote:
I would actually like to see Tempest with ground support vs. Vikings and Ravens supporting Siege Tanks. I saw a little of it in beta HOTS, and it was cool.
But I don't think 10% faster firing tanks will make up for Blink Stalkers and Immortals. Blink stalkers is fine, you just keep 1/3 of your tanks unsieged and those who blink forward melt. The problem is immortals.
Tbh properly used blink stalkers are a huge problem for mech (luckily most toss don't know this). In a direct fight they are rubbish. However on most maps getting 3 bases is already very irritating with blink stalkers around. You have nothing to chase them down. Hellions are only units which are fast enough, but not exactly what you want to fight stalkers with. Hellbats are slow. And some strategically placed tanks simply die.
In a direct fight you don't even have t oworry about tanks being unsieged. Tanks + hellbats rip through blink stalkers when they are stupid enough to blink in the middle of them.
On September 27 2013 05:07 Crisium wrote:
I would actually like to see Tempest with ground support vs. Vikings and Ravens supporting Siege Tanks. I saw a little of it in beta HOTS, and it was cool.
But I don't think 10% faster firing tanks will make up for Blink Stalkers and Immortals.
As someone who plays mech vs toss: You really dont want to see tempests against mech unless you are in favor of the toss player winning. Yeah vikings + ravens beat tempests, but add a few HTs and you are completely fucked. Sure you got ghosts against them, but while the few regular ground units are then on a-move (immortals/zealots for toss if he even has them, probably thors for terran. Going pure viking is a bad idea), and the tempests are also on a-move, it means that the toss is micro'ing his HTs. Meanwhile the terran has to dodge storms with vikings and trying to snipe/emp the HTs and making sure the ravens drop new PDDs. Now I know perfectly well my micro is fairly bad in such situations, but I also really think the toss has the advantage. And dropping PDDs in advance, of course you drop a few before the fight starts, but not all toss are retarded, they generally do some kind of tempest stutter step, which quickly takes you out of PDD range. And of course watch out your ravens dont come within feedback range.
And if he has some blink stalkers to blink under vikings, they will also empty the PDDs quite fast.
Widow mines work somewhat if the tempests are really stacked, but just storming them already works quite well. Aditionally the problem in general vs tempests isn't winning from them in equal cost scenarios, it is doing it for equal supply. And two widow mines per tempests are not great for that.
Personally if I look at post game graphs when fighting tempests armies the protoss always has a more expensive army. Then it is nice I can make many vikings, but if they just go into the meatgrinder and die against a superior army that doesn't help me. The only way I have beaten mass tempest is by always killing his bases and try to starve him out. And tactics that are based on more mobility are never a great idea with mech. Especially not with range of tempests and MsC teleportation.
In the end I think increasing tempests to at least 6 supply is a good idea. It doesn't change their general effectiveness, but it prevents them from being their own deathball. Well you can do it, but at least I can also counter them supply effective.
Edit: Misread
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 27 2013 05:56 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 05:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 27 2013 05:03 DuneBug wrote:On September 27 2013 01:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 27 2013 01:46 MockHamill wrote:
I agree with all of the changes but:
Tempest needs a nerf or mech can never become viable.
If Protoss starts to mass Tempest Terran need to throw away all tanks and hellbats and start to mass vikings and ravens or die. If you have 10+ Tanks and 15+Hellbats you can never match the Tempest since they are so extremly supply effeceint.
Please increse Tempest food cost to 6 or lower Tempest hitpoints. Well, now that upgrades are shared, you swap starports to reactors and spam vikings while doing constant hellion runbys with your excess hellbats.... tempest against terran? raven/viking? pdd is such a nasty thing to do to tempests... that's not to say that it's simply gg i got raven/viking you got tempest.. it makes a nice dynamic. Also I think oracles need a redesign, i'm glad they can harrass but it's not like it takes any skill to send an oracle over and beam probes a little bit. Even banshee micro is more respectable. And mech upgrades combined won't help mech.. so why do it. Tempest right now is standard way to finish the game that accidentally went long with small advantage for toss. Next, oracle is fine and i like direction blizzard is going with it, scrapping the idea of harasser as main function and using it as a decent scouting tool with maphax. Combined mech upgrades MAY help. Especially considering that now BC-Raven transition comes into full strength long before zerg may have +3 armor on flyers or considering the fact, that now vikings share attack upgrades with hellbats (ForGG approves). Tempests + HTs/blink stalkers = goodbye BC-raven army.
Did you not notice that i was talking about corruptors :3?
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On September 27 2013 06:01 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 05:56 Sissors wrote:On September 27 2013 05:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 27 2013 05:03 DuneBug wrote:On September 27 2013 01:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 27 2013 01:46 MockHamill wrote:
I agree with all of the changes but:
Tempest needs a nerf or mech can never become viable.
If Protoss starts to mass Tempest Terran need to throw away all tanks and hellbats and start to mass vikings and ravens or die. If you have 10+ Tanks and 15+Hellbats you can never match the Tempest since they are so extremly supply effeceint.
Please increse Tempest food cost to 6 or lower Tempest hitpoints. Well, now that upgrades are shared, you swap starports to reactors and spam vikings while doing constant hellion runbys with your excess hellbats.... tempest against terran? raven/viking? pdd is such a nasty thing to do to tempests... that's not to say that it's simply gg i got raven/viking you got tempest.. it makes a nice dynamic. Also I think oracles need a redesign, i'm glad they can harrass but it's not like it takes any skill to send an oracle over and beam probes a little bit. Even banshee micro is more respectable. And mech upgrades combined won't help mech.. so why do it. Tempest right now is standard way to finish the game that accidentally went long with small advantage for toss. Next, oracle is fine and i like direction blizzard is going with it, scrapping the idea of harasser as main function and using it as a decent scouting tool with maphax. Combined mech upgrades MAY help. Especially considering that now BC-Raven transition comes into full strength long before zerg may have +3 armor on flyers or considering the fact, that now vikings share attack upgrades with hellbats (ForGG approves). Tempests + HTs/blink stalkers = goodbye BC-raven army. Did you not notice that i was talking about corruptors :3?
Whoops my bad  .
You are right, there it may have an effect. On the other hand then first mech needs to be viable, and I don't see anything that is going to make it viable anytime soon, 10% cycle time reduction isn't going to change that much.
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On September 27 2013 05:43 DomeGetta wrote:
Ohhh so game 4 u were talking about (not newkirk) - the game where Bomber was up 3-0 and crippled him with a combat shields push.. and then followed up with marine/tank at 10:30 .. yeah that's a very standard style there.. nice siting..
Anyone have a game where the terran opens standard 3 CC into marine/tank? I'd be surprised if they did - and even if they did it would be about .05% of the total pro games played.
If bio / mine is OP why don't the stats show it?
Maybe I can put it another way - simpler for people to understand - if you took WOL right now and you gave siege tanks faster reload and made infestors require micro (hots them) - buffed mutas and ultralisks - would that balance WOL? Really try to unbiasedly and honestly answer that question. Don't forget to take away siege mode upgrade either xD. Even though it is a hilarious question - try to answer it honestly. That's what this patch does.
Siege Tanks are slow to produce units. You don't go fast 3cc and then don't build dudes for 5:00 minutes straight.
Bio is much more important to produce at that time.
As you build up a bio ball, you need to prevent creep spread or all is lost. Tanks suck at clearing creap, so you bring mines instead.
That's not a "Tanks are useless" scenario that's a tactical awareness scenario. In the current metagame of fast creep spread you cannot afford to have an army that is too slow to prevent total map control from being given to the zerg. If the zerg was dumb enough to try throwing wave after wave of troops at you then tanks would have a purpose, but MMMM chases the zerg army as much as it positions against it.
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EPT
