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On September 27 2013 01:46 MockHamill wrote:
I agree with all of the changes but:
Tempest needs a nerf or mech can never become viable.
If Protoss starts to mass Tempest Terran need to throw away all tanks and hellbats and start to mass vikings and ravens or die. If you have 10+ Tanks and 15+Hellbats you can never match the Tempest since they are so extremly supply effeceint.
Please increse Tempest food cost to 6 or lower Tempest hitpoints.
Well, now that upgrades are shared, you swap starports to reactors and spam vikings while doing constant hellion runbys with your excess hellbats....
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looking at DRG playing vs widow mines i really don't understand why they need a nerf.
they are exactly like banelings. if you micro well against them, they don't do much damage but if you micro badly against them they are devastating.
the micro vs wms and banelings is very spectacular and entertaining so i want to see it more.
the only thing i agree with is that tvz should have more variety but nerfing the wm into oblivion is the wrong way.
bio mine must stay viable, terran just needs other option to play.
but before adding more options for terran i think blizzard should concentrate on pvt because it's just broken atm.
like in tvz there are always the same unit compositions but on top of that it's extremely imbalanced.
for terran the only chance to win is scv pull and pray. that must be fixed first.
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I don't get the Mech changes... this kills anything roach/hydra in TvZ. It's already hard to kill a defensive terran, lets give them even more options to play it like that. Plus the combined upgrades make it even easier to go into Tank/Viking/Raven with PFs and hellbat runby/drops. I've played Roach/hydra throughout the last 2 seasons vs Terran and it's already dicy and hard to pull off. Those changes kill me >.<
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On September 27 2013 00:57 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 00:03 TheFish7 wrote:On September 26 2013 23:34 Osiccor wrote:
Since Oracle's harass gets completely nullified by static defence, how about giving Oracle a kill that disables static defences forcing your opponent to keep some units at home. ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/4/4f/Corsair.png) While we are at it.. why don't we change the collosi to a unit that does splash damage still... but has to shoot a explosive projectile that benefits from proper target firing, maybe it does a lot of damage but is slow as shit to compensate and has to be babied and micro'd like crazy with a shutt- warp prism!? As a Protoss player I'm all for these changes! Lets go Blizzard :D
he wants the reaver  oh it's BW back again weee
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On September 27 2013 01:56 Turbo.Tactics wrote:
I don't get the Mech changes... this kills anything roach/hydra in TvZ. It's already hard to kill a defensive terran, lets give them even more options to play it like that. Plus the combined upgrades make it even easier to go into Tank/Viking/Raven with PFs and hellbat runby/drops. I've played Roach/hydra throughout the last 2 seasons vs Terran and it's already dicy and hard to pull off. Those changes kill me >.<
You almost certainly do something wrong if you struggle vs mech in current balance state. Really, it can't be that good. We would see Korean players do those strategies. They ALWAYS do what gives them most chances of winning. And they all play 4M. Playing against mech requires completely different mindset, chances are the issue is on your side, seriously.
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On September 27 2013 00:43 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +The DT buff was kind-of interesting, in that I could potentially imagine there being a speed toss army (DT, blink Stalker, Phoenix) that exploits less mobile armies and pokes all over the map, and wile toss has had one or two fast units, they just haven't had enough fast units to push them over the edge into making something like that viable (whereas zerg can go fast with muta/ling, medium speed with roach hydra, slow with brood lord infestor swarm host queen). DTs are probably the wrong unit to buff, though, unless they're nerfed in other ways. Not sure what the right unit to buff is, though. (Although for some reason sentires with 3.375 movement speed is sounding hilarious to me right now. Zip in with pure sentry, forcefield some workers, tickle tickle tickle, run away). There's a 4 Oracle PvT style that is really cool, fun to play, and viable up through masters. But no one's been able to make that style work on a pro level. It'd be really cool if this made that style on the Pro level, because its just a completely different way to play PvT than exists currently.
That feels pretty all in. Do you have some replays of this or something? Would like to see it in action.
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On September 27 2013 02:06 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 00:43 awesomoecalypse wrote:The DT buff was kind-of interesting, in that I could potentially imagine there being a speed toss army (DT, blink Stalker, Phoenix) that exploits less mobile armies and pokes all over the map, and wile toss has had one or two fast units, they just haven't had enough fast units to push them over the edge into making something like that viable (whereas zerg can go fast with muta/ling, medium speed with roach hydra, slow with brood lord infestor swarm host queen). DTs are probably the wrong unit to buff, though, unless they're nerfed in other ways. Not sure what the right unit to buff is, though. (Although for some reason sentires with 3.375 movement speed is sounding hilarious to me right now. Zip in with pure sentry, forcefield some workers, tickle tickle tickle, run away). There's a 4 Oracle PvT style that is really cool, fun to play, and viable up through masters. But no one's been able to make that style work on a pro level. It'd be really cool if this made that style on the Pro level, because its just a completely different way to play PvT than exists currently. That feels pretty all in. Do you have some replays of this or something? Would like to see it in action.
4 Oracles is cheaper (mineral wise) than 3 colossus and requires less tech. It seems "all in" because we assume 1 Oracle, but cost wise its not as much as 3 colossus which still allows for templar tech switches.
I personally feel it sounds crazy, but the math fits.
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On September 27 2013 02:06 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 00:43 awesomoecalypse wrote:The DT buff was kind-of interesting, in that I could potentially imagine there being a speed toss army (DT, blink Stalker, Phoenix) that exploits less mobile armies and pokes all over the map, and wile toss has had one or two fast units, they just haven't had enough fast units to push them over the edge into making something like that viable (whereas zerg can go fast with muta/ling, medium speed with roach hydra, slow with brood lord infestor swarm host queen). DTs are probably the wrong unit to buff, though, unless they're nerfed in other ways. Not sure what the right unit to buff is, though. (Although for some reason sentires with 3.375 movement speed is sounding hilarious to me right now. Zip in with pure sentry, forcefield some workers, tickle tickle tickle, run away). There's a 4 Oracle PvT style that is really cool, fun to play, and viable up through masters. But no one's been able to make that style work on a pro level. It'd be really cool if this made that style on the Pro level, because its just a completely different way to play PvT than exists currently. That feels pretty all in. Do you have some replays of this or something? Would like to see it in action.
Here's a pretty good guide to the style with some replays.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=421742
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On September 27 2013 02:22 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 02:06 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On September 27 2013 00:43 awesomoecalypse wrote:The DT buff was kind-of interesting, in that I could potentially imagine there being a speed toss army (DT, blink Stalker, Phoenix) that exploits less mobile armies and pokes all over the map, and wile toss has had one or two fast units, they just haven't had enough fast units to push them over the edge into making something like that viable (whereas zerg can go fast with muta/ling, medium speed with roach hydra, slow with brood lord infestor swarm host queen). DTs are probably the wrong unit to buff, though, unless they're nerfed in other ways. Not sure what the right unit to buff is, though. (Although for some reason sentires with 3.375 movement speed is sounding hilarious to me right now. Zip in with pure sentry, forcefield some workers, tickle tickle tickle, run away). There's a 4 Oracle PvT style that is really cool, fun to play, and viable up through masters. But no one's been able to make that style work on a pro level. It'd be really cool if this made that style on the Pro level, because its just a completely different way to play PvT than exists currently. That feels pretty all in. Do you have some replays of this or something? Would like to see it in action. Here's a pretty good guide to the style with some replays. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=421742
Thanks, I have to experiment with this now...
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I like the direction of the changes trying to open up the game a bit. I still feel some of it is a bit misguided.
For example, the mine splash damage change is helpful but the problem is more about detection and position. They should find more ways players have to micro against them instead of telling players to just play the same but you will lose less. Changes like greater detection range for overseer or allowing changlings to set off mines or detect in general would be more helpful.
For Zerg I think the roach change is great and should have happened long ago. I think we will see some cool roach burrow micro similar to blink micro.
For Terran siege tank doesn't seem like enough of a change. What if the transformation servos also reduced the time it takes to siege and unsiege tanks and transform Vikings? I see that being more helpful to position and reposition faster, move out from blinding cloud, and save tanks from dying in siege mode if caught.
Lastly, Protoss needs more love to open options up. Everything seems focused on Protoss harassment options but the race needs more than that.
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I agree with these changes but I feel like the whole thing that was discussed was to give a terran player options in the match up. Thus giving zerg options in the match up This is still very one dimentional and once meta gets ironed out then it will be the same every game again...
This will however create a new dynamic if it goes through the way they like it to fix the problems zerg see with terran not needing as much gas. It will turn from needed 100 gas for mines ( 2 Facts with reactors) going to 3 facts possibly if you still want that many mines plus tanks which will need 225 gas for just widow mines and factory plus the 200 gas for medivacs and the 50 gas for marauders. I dont know what this translates into as far as GPM but overall this will effect not only the numbers of marines because you can only make so much at once but hinder major production really kicking into gear with upgrades probably back a full minute.... Which in TvZ is pretty huge but I guess this theory crafting has yet to be seen.
Honestly I just want to try out the map.
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On September 27 2013 01:49 Sepi wrote:
Im afraid, that while the mine change is good for general play, its still hurts ALOT for TvP meching, because mines are pretty much your only fear to enemy stargate play early on. If you invest too much on marines, our mech army is hurting. As the oracles seem to have their speed boosts youll be forced to turret yourself in pretty hard.
But that ain't pretty much big deal, because we wont see mech in TvP anyways.
But mines hardly ever splash the protoss air units early anyway? It's the direct damage that counts against early protoss, which is unchanged.
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I don't feel like protoss needs anything tbh..... ofcourse I'm a little biased in this area because my tvp winrate is now 43% and my other match ups are tvt 90% winrate and tvz 70% winrate LOL
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On September 27 2013 03:01 FLuE wrote:
I like the direction of the changes trying to open up the game a bit. I still feel some of it is a bit misguided.
For example, the mine splash damage change is helpful but the problem is more about detection and position. They should find more ways players have to micro against them instead of telling players to just play the same but you will lose less. Changes like greater detection range for overseer or allowing changlings to set off mines or detect in general would be more helpful.
For Zerg I think the roach change is great and should have happened long ago. I think we will see some cool roach burrow micro similar to blink micro.
For Terran siege tank doesn't seem like enough of a change. What if the transformation servos also reduced the time it takes to siege and unsiege tanks and transform Vikings? I see that being more helpful to position and reposition faster, move out from blinding cloud, and save tanks from dying in siege mode if caught.
Lastly, Protoss needs more love to open options up. Everything seems focused on Protoss harassment options but the race needs more than that.
Ahhhh, I like that idea a lot.
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On September 27 2013 03:21 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 03:01 FLuE wrote:
I like the direction of the changes trying to open up the game a bit. I still feel some of it is a bit misguided.
For example, the mine splash damage change is helpful but the problem is more about detection and position. They should find more ways players have to micro against them instead of telling players to just play the same but you will lose less. Changes like greater detection range for overseer or allowing changlings to set off mines or detect in general would be more helpful.
For Zerg I think the roach change is great and should have happened long ago. I think we will see some cool roach burrow micro similar to blink micro.
For Terran siege tank doesn't seem like enough of a change. What if the transformation servos also reduced the time it takes to siege and unsiege tanks and transform Vikings? I see that being more helpful to position and reposition faster, move out from blinding cloud, and save tanks from dying in siege mode if caught.
Lastly, Protoss needs more love to open options up. Everything seems focused on Protoss harassment options but the race needs more than that. Ahhhh, I like that idea a lot.
Although a strong buff, I don't think its what people who want "mech play" wanted...
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I don't like reducing the siege times for tanks as a buff. The whole point of tank-based mech is that it's a bit clumsy and unforgiving, it just rewards the player that is able to constantly scout around his army and look out for threats.
If I wanted an a-move deathball, I'd play protoss.
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On September 27 2013 03:22 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 03:21 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On September 27 2013 03:01 FLuE wrote:
I like the direction of the changes trying to open up the game a bit. I still feel some of it is a bit misguided.
For example, the mine splash damage change is helpful but the problem is more about detection and position. They should find more ways players have to micro against them instead of telling players to just play the same but you will lose less. Changes like greater detection range for overseer or allowing changlings to set off mines or detect in general would be more helpful.
For Zerg I think the roach change is great and should have happened long ago. I think we will see some cool roach burrow micro similar to blink micro.
For Terran siege tank doesn't seem like enough of a change. What if the transformation servos also reduced the time it takes to siege and unsiege tanks and transform Vikings? I see that being more helpful to position and reposition faster, move out from blinding cloud, and save tanks from dying in siege mode if caught.
Lastly, Protoss needs more love to open options up. Everything seems focused on Protoss harassment options but the race needs more than that. Ahhhh, I like that idea a lot. Although a strong buff, I don't think its what people who want "mech play" wanted...
We know, what they want from the start of WoL  And Blizzard knows it too.
Alas the unit they want to kill is immortal.
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On September 27 2013 03:01 FLuE wrote:
What if the transformation servos also reduced the time it takes to siege and unsiege tanks and transform Vikings? I see that being more helpful to position and reposition faster, move out from blinding cloud, and save tanks from dying in siege mode if caught.
Really good idea dude, I hope DK sees this.
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On September 27 2013 03:01 FLuE wrote:
...For Terran siege tank doesn't seem like enough of a change. What if the transformation servos also reduced the time it takes to siege and unsiege tanks and transform Vikings? I see that being more helpful to position and reposition faster, move out from blinding cloud, and save tanks from dying in siege mode if caught....
I love this! Almost as much as the idea for hellions to be able to drive off (but not up) cliffs with some crazy sound effect "WhoooHoooo!!"
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On September 27 2013 01:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 01:46 MockHamill wrote:
I agree with all of the changes but:
Tempest needs a nerf or mech can never become viable.
If Protoss starts to mass Tempest Terran need to throw away all tanks and hellbats and start to mass vikings and ravens or die. If you have 10+ Tanks and 15+Hellbats you can never match the Tempest since they are so extremly supply effeceint.
Please increse Tempest food cost to 6 or lower Tempest hitpoints. Well, now that upgrades are shared, you swap starports to reactors and spam vikings while doing constant hellion runbys with your excess hellbats....
this is exactly why i feel combined mech upgrades is stupid.
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EPT
