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On September 26 2013 22:19 DomeGetta wrote:
Where are the stats that show Terran being overpowered? Can someone please link? If there aren't any stats that show that since the last patch with overseer speed can someone please explain why they are nerfing Terran and buffing the other 2 races? There is no possible way to interpret mech upgrade and tank reload as more of a benefit than the widow mine nerf is a negative as neither of those things are even used in the tvz meta game. So if the game is balanced why are we nerfing Terran? Widow mines will now do half what they use to in Tvz. We already saw DRG roll innovation with the current mines..is this for serious?? I didn't play BW but I am a mid master T and I honestly can say that if this nerf goes through there will be no reason to play T. I will certainly switch. But the reason I bring up BW is BC I'm wondering was there ever a time where the game became stable I.e. no more patching? Shouldn't patching only be used as a last resort to statistically significant imbalance?? Its such a joke to listen to the logic of "let's make it more exciting!" As if for some reason people will watch more BC you keep screwing with the game?? If you want to grow the game market for more sponsors and invest in bigger prizes to stimulate more competition..people like watching 2 nerds duke it out for 100K..they don't like watching a crowd of 40 people at a live event see 2 people play for a 1500 dollar grand prize..this constant patching for no reason is obnoxious and ineffective. All it does is reset the meta game and make the limited time casuals can put in to try to master the game worthless BC they have to relearn builds every few months. STOP THE PATCHING!! Independent of what race I decide to stick to after this patch it would be nice to know that the game will be the same for a while!
I am happy to see more diversity in TvZ than bio mine all day.
don't mind having one less bio mine player and getting more bio tank or mech T players.
even flash said T is being limited to 1 style and so yea, I would be happy to know that there is more patching and not feeling bad for losing some T players like you who just want one style to dominate all
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 26 2013 22:33 DomeGetta wrote:
Valid point bro. BC in my original post I said blizzard should be the one paying didn't I. Yep let's just keep patching that oughtta do it.
That's not like normal sponsor has 100k bux to throw away on 1st prize only, let alone 2nd, 3rd and what not prizes. There are no such sponsors except for players and developer of the game itself.
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Just want to reiterate the key points of my post before someone tried to troll it. I would really like an answer from someone or blizzard about the true motivation for the patch. Even if they want to take the stance of "we fix the stale meta game!" Which I disagree with being a good reason for a patch..someone still has to show why it makes sense to nerf 1 race and buff the other 2 if the game is statistically balanced. A balanced stale meta game is still better than an imbalanced one. Why isit that you think all pro terrans use bio mine? Consider the alternative to bio/mine in TVZ. Is turtle mech less stale? I don't see how it is..and it also favors the zerg drastically. Which is why no one uses it..faster tank reload isnt going to change that. So now u have a diluted bio/mine style that was balanced prior to the nerf (unless someone would pls link me to stats that show otherwise and I'll shut up)..how would u not expect this to become imbalanced?
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The more I think about this proposed patch the more it feel like the Treaty that caused the Irish Civil war, I don't something that a small majority agrees on. Sure I accept changes would be nice for the game and changes will encourage thinking and a new meta.
I know this seems a bit silly/whiney as none of the changes seem really bad, I would just rather another route for the changes that encourage a more fun meta while retaining balance.
1; I don't like playing or watching mech, its too passive and I don't want it to become common (or even be forced to play vs it T.T)
2: I love playing TvZ at the moment, the MMMM constant aggression off 3 base stayle is so much fun I stopped playing random and went just terran for a month. The aoe is not a problem in TvP or TvT and I feel good zergs can kinda deal with it in TvZ. *( Could indirectly buff the oracle here by reducing the damage bonus mines have vs shields so mines don't 1 shot oracles)*
3: Of all the terran units, I hate tanks the most. Ergo I don't want them buffed if they don't really need it.
4: Zerg need buffs to help them deal with terran, not protoss. If you're going to buff a zerg unit, not the roach. I hated roach spam a year ago in PvZ where Zerg literally just spammed roaches and made life hell trying to take a 3rd as toss, I don't want P vs RoachV2.0
5: Im all for harrass units being buffed to promote multitasking and little fights all over the map, but oracles are fast enough as they are imo. Early game they punish people too hard if they don't have units nearby already, it will only be worse with this change. (My main problem with oracles is the way they move in too close to try and shoot thus going into range of more enemies then it needs to be, make it stop and shoot when its at maximum range, or give it more range).
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Etisme..that would be totally fine if marine tank was a viable option. But its not. The point is the style dominates the meta game BC it is the only viable one at the highest lvl of play.
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On September 26 2013 23:04 DomeGetta wrote:
Just want to reiterate the key points of my post before someone tried to troll it. I would really like an answer from someone or blizzard about the true motivation for the patch. Even if they want to take the stance of "we fix the stale meta game!" Which I disagree with being a good reason for a patch..someone still has to show why it makes sense to nerf 1 race and buff the other 2 if the game is statistically balanced. A balanced stale meta game is still better than an imbalanced one. Why isit that you think all pro terrans use bio mine? Consider the alternative to bio/mine in TVZ. Is turtle mech less stale? I don't see how it is..and it also favors the zerg drastically. Which is why no one uses it..faster tank reload isnt going to change that. So now u have a diluted bio/mine style that was balanced prior to the nerf (unless someone would pls link me to stats that show otherwise and I'll shut up)..how would u not expect this to become imbalanced?
which is why they aren't rolling the changes as a complete patch, they are rolling it out on a balance test map.
the patch is not to nerf terran, it is to nerf one style and buff the other to make both mech and bio mech viable.
if mech is favoring zerg, then there will be nerf and buff accordingly. Why it is good? because zerg has at least 3 different styles to deal with mech rather than almost 90% of games ling baneling muta vs bio mine.
the patch is also to buff protoss so that they would seek out other ways to play other than still turtling too hard style. except I do think blizzard should also nerf protoss defensive style as well.
blizzard also isn't liking the trend of having only one style viable. Look beyond stats and balance.
Or if you like the word balance so much, there is a complete imbalanceness in the mech vs bio mine in the risk and reward comparison.
No one has to convince anyone if the patch should be done because blizzard has the final call here.
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A protoss who keeps making DT's/oracles is just going to have a weaker army if his opponent is playing a normalish macro style. Making them faster doesn't really change what an oracle is about it just makes it harder for the terran to punish the Protoss when he's being careless.
I disagree, for a few reasons.
1.) Oracles as they currently are are not actually that good at hit and run harass. Their fragility and their need to manually trigger the pulsar beam and spend energy on it, combined with the way it stops attacking when they need to move, means that their dps takes a big hit when workers move away from them, and once they're in range of static defense they go down so quickly that the window for a Protoss to deal some damage with the Oracle and get out without dying is very narrow...and meanwhile they're losing energy the whole time. Since Oracles are too much of an investment to just casually throw away without dealing huge damage in return, this leads to a dynamic where Oracle harass can be devastating if you catch the opponent by surprise, but quite easily neutralized entirely otherwise.
One solution to address this would be to buff Oracle shields or health so they're less fragile. But that would reduce the overall skill required to use the unit well, and would also make it better in straight up engagements, which could turn it into just another deathball unit. Another solution would be to lower the cost, so losing the Oracle isn't quite as big a deal. But that would make early game all-ins and cheese much stronger.
As such, I believe the best solution--and clearly Blizzard agrees with me--is to buff speed and acceleration. This approach doesn't buff the unit in straight up engagements, and its worthless if you're not actively babysitting and controlling the unit, which means it only helps skilled players and doesn't contribute to the deathball. The acceleration buff reduces the dps hit that Oracles take from Workers moving, and combined with the speed buff makes it much easier to get in and out of a base quickly and still deal some damage, even if there's a certain amount of static defense (obviously a critical mass of static defense will still prevent Oracle harass, but a critical amount of static defense can stop any harass unit in the game except a giant Muta ball--and if the Oracle is able to force that much static D then they've helped pay for themselves anyway).
2.) The other main advantage of a unit like the Oracle is that, ideally, they should be able to provide some map control. If the opponent moves out without enough defense they expose themselves to econ damage, and small numbers of units around the map will be vulnerable to being picked off. But currently, using an Oracle in this manner becomes very risky--if you're roaming around the map with an Oracle and the opponent has air units, hydras with speed (and/or good creep spread), blink stalkers, marines with stim, or HTs or Infestors...then chances are very good that if they spot the Oracle you'll lose it. Hunting and engaging small numbers of units around the map with the Oracle is possible, but very risky.
This patch makes it easier to get in and perform quit hit and run tactics--in particular it makes retreating, especially from any ground unit, much much easier. The opponent can still zone the Oracle out if they invest in enough anti-air and keep their army together, and certain units (e.g. Phoenixes) can still chase it down. But for the most part, the risk factor of losing your Oracle because it was spotted and chased down is reduced, provided the Protoss player stays active with it and devotes attention to it...which means that roaming the map and using it for map control is actually a reasonable tactic. Thats a big buff to the overall utility of the unit.
So overall, while its true that the Oracle was a harass/scouting unit prior to this patch, and will still be a harass/scouting unit post-patch, its effectiveness in that role, and what that role really means, will be changed. Instead of a coinflippy unit that either ends the game or is a mostly wasted investment, there are a number of ways that skilled players can still get a lot of value out of Oracles even if they aren't able to catch the opponent entirely by surprise.
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On September 26 2013 23:12 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 23:04 DomeGetta wrote:
Just want to reiterate the key points of my post before someone tried to troll it. I would really like an answer from someone or blizzard about the true motivation for the patch. Even if they want to take the stance of "we fix the stale meta game!" Which I disagree with being a good reason for a patch..someone still has to show why it makes sense to nerf 1 race and buff the other 2 if the game is statistically balanced. A balanced stale meta game is still better than an imbalanced one. Why isit that you think all pro terrans use bio mine? Consider the alternative to bio/mine in TVZ. Is turtle mech less stale? I don't see how it is..and it also favors the zerg drastically. Which is why no one uses it..faster tank reload isnt going to change that. So now u have a diluted bio/mine style that was balanced prior to the nerf (unless someone would pls link me to stats that show otherwise and I'll shut up)..how would u not expect this to become imbalanced? which is why they aren't rolling the changes as a complete patch, they are rolling it out on a balance test map. the patch is not to nerf terran, it is to nerf one style and buff the other to make both mech and bio mech viable. if mech is favoring zerg, then there will be nerf and buff accordingly. Why it is good? because zerg has at least 3 different styles to deal with mech rather than almost 90% of games ling baneling muta vs bio mine. the patch is also to buff protoss so that they would seek out other ways to play other than still turtling too hard style. except I do think blizzard should also nerf protoss defensive style as well. blizzard also isn't liking the trend of having only one style viable. Look beyond stats and balance. Or if you like the word balance so much, there is a complete imbalanceness in the mech vs bio mine in the risk and reward comparison. No one has to convince anyone if the patch should be done because blizzard has the final call here. . Sorry but what you said here is exactly what I'm talking about and what doesn't make sense. The widow mine nerf crushes that style..the tank buff doesnt do nearly enough to make much more viable.. test all you want its brutally obvious to anyone who understands the matchup.
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Also, I'm thinking that Hallucinated Oracles will be pretty common now. They're slightly slower and more fragile than Phoenixes, but unless your opponent has detection, it sort of forces them to pull and/or spread their workers for a moment on the off chance that the Oracle is actually real. I mean, after a moment they'll figure out whether its real or not and get back to mining, but its still a nice, easy way to mess with the opponent for a minute and disrupt mining a bit at very little cost.
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On September 26 2013 23:16 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 23:12 ETisME wrote:On September 26 2013 23:04 DomeGetta wrote:
Just want to reiterate the key points of my post before someone tried to troll it. I would really like an answer from someone or blizzard about the true motivation for the patch. Even if they want to take the stance of "we fix the stale meta game!" Which I disagree with being a good reason for a patch..someone still has to show why it makes sense to nerf 1 race and buff the other 2 if the game is statistically balanced. A balanced stale meta game is still better than an imbalanced one. Why isit that you think all pro terrans use bio mine? Consider the alternative to bio/mine in TVZ. Is turtle mech less stale? I don't see how it is..and it also favors the zerg drastically. Which is why no one uses it..faster tank reload isnt going to change that. So now u have a diluted bio/mine style that was balanced prior to the nerf (unless someone would pls link me to stats that show otherwise and I'll shut up)..how would u not expect this to become imbalanced? which is why they aren't rolling the changes as a complete patch, they are rolling it out on a balance test map. the patch is not to nerf terran, it is to nerf one style and buff the other to make both mech and bio mech viable. if mech is favoring zerg, then there will be nerf and buff accordingly. Why it is good? because zerg has at least 3 different styles to deal with mech rather than almost 90% of games ling baneling muta vs bio mine. the patch is also to buff protoss so that they would seek out other ways to play other than still turtling too hard style. except I do think blizzard should also nerf protoss defensive style as well. blizzard also isn't liking the trend of having only one style viable. Look beyond stats and balance. Or if you like the word balance so much, there is a complete imbalanceness in the mech vs bio mine in the risk and reward comparison. No one has to convince anyone if the patch should be done because blizzard has the final call here. . Sorry but what you said here is exactly what I'm talking about and what doesn't make sense. The widow mine nerf crushes that style..the tank buff doesnt do nearly enough to make much more viable.. test all you want its brutally obvious to anyone who understands the matchup.
it's a damn test map. how many times do I need to screw that into your head?
blizzard will nerf bio mine style because they want mine to not function as a better replacement for tanks. It will be their direction to have bio tank and mine as a supportive unit instead of the key unit and there will be patches to help or nerf it accordingly.
hell I will pull a naruto here, innovation and flash both have used bio tank style and won games with it, bio tank will work...right? It should be brutally obvious to anyone that it can work too
and mech was used more often than bio mine during the hots beta and was fairly good (see thorzain stream), back when the vehicle upgrades combined like what they intend to do later.
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On September 26 2013 23:04 paddyz wrote:
3: Of all the terran units, I hate tanks the most. Ergo I don't want them buffed if they don't really need it.
Good. Since they really need it. And a 10% cycle time reduction doesn't cut it.
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Since Oracle's harass gets completely nullified by static defence, how about giving Oracle a kill that disables static defences forcing your opponent to keep some units at home.
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On September 26 2013 23:23 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 23:04 paddyz wrote:
3: Of all the terran units, I hate tanks the most. Ergo I don't want them buffed if they don't really need it.
Good. Since they really need it. And a 10% cycle time reduction doesn't cut it.
Have you actually played with it yet?
I ask because I have no idea how you're guaging whether or not its sufficient or not. I mean, it might well not be enough, but I think figuring it out without testing is going to be very difficult, for a few reasons:
-Damage has a snowballing effect. The faster you deal damage, the faster you kill enemy units, which means the less time they have to do damage to you, which means more of your units are alive which means you kill them faster, etc. The line between dealing a strong but balanced amount of damage, and a broken amount of damage, is therefore quite thin.
-As a long-range AOE unit, that snowballing damage effect is multiplied exponentially for Tanks. Its not that they're killing units faster one by one, they're killing large clumps of units faster, which means getting the numbers right is even trickier.
-Units don't exist in a vacuum. Regardless of whether or not the fight goes long enough that the reduced cooldown gives the Tank another shot, its still dealing damage faster, which means that other units still benefit from that--Tanks have to be balanced not just for pure mech, but also in such a way that compositions like Marine+Tank don't become overpowered.
Given all this, while I think its entirely possible that this Tank buff won't be sufficient (and I fully agree that if it isn't they should be buffed more), I also think accurately figuring out whether it is or not is something that can only really be done with testing, so I understand why Blizzard decided to start with a fairly small buff and go from there--if its insufficient, they can just bump it up a bit more and test that.
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On September 26 2013 23:23 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 23:16 DomeGetta wrote:On September 26 2013 23:12 ETisME wrote:On September 26 2013 23:04 DomeGetta wrote:
Just want to reiterate the key points of my post before someone tried to troll it. I would really like an answer from someone or blizzard about the true motivation for the patch. Even if they want to take the stance of "we fix the stale meta game!" Which I disagree with being a good reason for a patch..someone still has to show why it makes sense to nerf 1 race and buff the other 2 if the game is statistically balanced. A balanced stale meta game is still better than an imbalanced one. Why isit that you think all pro terrans use bio mine? Consider the alternative to bio/mine in TVZ. Is turtle mech less stale? I don't see how it is..and it also favors the zerg drastically. Which is why no one uses it..faster tank reload isnt going to change that. So now u have a diluted bio/mine style that was balanced prior to the nerf (unless someone would pls link me to stats that show otherwise and I'll shut up)..how would u not expect this to become imbalanced? which is why they aren't rolling the changes as a complete patch, they are rolling it out on a balance test map. the patch is not to nerf terran, it is to nerf one style and buff the other to make both mech and bio mech viable. if mech is favoring zerg, then there will be nerf and buff accordingly. Why it is good? because zerg has at least 3 different styles to deal with mech rather than almost 90% of games ling baneling muta vs bio mine. the patch is also to buff protoss so that they would seek out other ways to play other than still turtling too hard style. except I do think blizzard should also nerf protoss defensive style as well. blizzard also isn't liking the trend of having only one style viable. Look beyond stats and balance. Or if you like the word balance so much, there is a complete imbalanceness in the mech vs bio mine in the risk and reward comparison. No one has to convince anyone if the patch should be done because blizzard has the final call here. . Sorry but what you said here is exactly what I'm talking about and what doesn't make sense. The widow mine nerf crushes that style..the tank buff doesnt do nearly enough to make much more viable.. test all you want its brutally obvious to anyone who understands the matchup. it's a damn test map. how many times do I need to screw that into your head? blizzard will nerf bio mine style because they want mine to not function as a better replacement for tanks. It will be their direction to have bio tank and mine as a supportive unit instead of the key unit and there will be patches to help or nerf it accordingly. hell I will pull a naruto here, innovation and flash both have used bio tank style and won games with it, bio tank will work...right? It should be brutally obvious to anyone that it can work too and mech was used more often than bio mine during the hots beta and was fairly good (see thorzain stream), back when the vehicle upgrades combined like what they intend to do later. I'm not gonna teach you about Tvz but marine tank can be used yes against roach hydra not against standard ling bling muta. Show me one game where it was done pls thx. Until then you have no argument to say its viable..unless you are better than the pros who refuse to use it? Simple facts: nerf makes bio/mine underpowered...buff doesn't make mech or marine tank viable .. you heard it here first! The painfully obvious statement that will bring wol back. But hey maybe the viewers who probably won't even notice the patch will be happy.
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On September 26 2013 23:46 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 23:23 ETisME wrote:On September 26 2013 23:16 DomeGetta wrote:On September 26 2013 23:12 ETisME wrote:On September 26 2013 23:04 DomeGetta wrote:
Just want to reiterate the key points of my post before someone tried to troll it. I would really like an answer from someone or blizzard about the true motivation for the patch. Even if they want to take the stance of "we fix the stale meta game!" Which I disagree with being a good reason for a patch..someone still has to show why it makes sense to nerf 1 race and buff the other 2 if the game is statistically balanced. A balanced stale meta game is still better than an imbalanced one. Why isit that you think all pro terrans use bio mine? Consider the alternative to bio/mine in TVZ. Is turtle mech less stale? I don't see how it is..and it also favors the zerg drastically. Which is why no one uses it..faster tank reload isnt going to change that. So now u have a diluted bio/mine style that was balanced prior to the nerf (unless someone would pls link me to stats that show otherwise and I'll shut up)..how would u not expect this to become imbalanced? which is why they aren't rolling the changes as a complete patch, they are rolling it out on a balance test map. the patch is not to nerf terran, it is to nerf one style and buff the other to make both mech and bio mech viable. if mech is favoring zerg, then there will be nerf and buff accordingly. Why it is good? because zerg has at least 3 different styles to deal with mech rather than almost 90% of games ling baneling muta vs bio mine. the patch is also to buff protoss so that they would seek out other ways to play other than still turtling too hard style. except I do think blizzard should also nerf protoss defensive style as well. blizzard also isn't liking the trend of having only one style viable. Look beyond stats and balance. Or if you like the word balance so much, there is a complete imbalanceness in the mech vs bio mine in the risk and reward comparison. No one has to convince anyone if the patch should be done because blizzard has the final call here. . Sorry but what you said here is exactly what I'm talking about and what doesn't make sense. The widow mine nerf crushes that style..the tank buff doesnt do nearly enough to make much more viable.. test all you want its brutally obvious to anyone who understands the matchup. it's a damn test map. how many times do I need to screw that into your head? blizzard will nerf bio mine style because they want mine to not function as a better replacement for tanks. It will be their direction to have bio tank and mine as a supportive unit instead of the key unit and there will be patches to help or nerf it accordingly. hell I will pull a naruto here, innovation and flash both have used bio tank style and won games with it, bio tank will work...right? It should be brutally obvious to anyone that it can work too and mech was used more often than bio mine during the hots beta and was fairly good (see thorzain stream), back when the vehicle upgrades combined like what they intend to do later. I'm not gonna teach you about Tvz but marine tank can be used yes against roach hydra not against standard ling bling muta. Show me one game where it was done pls thx. Until then you have no argument to say its viable..unless you are better than the pros who refuse to use it? Simple facts: nerf makes bio/mine underpowered...buff doesn't make mech or marine tank viable .. you heard it here first! The painfully obvious statement that will bring wol back. But hey maybe the viewers who probably won't even notice the patch will be happy.
Bomber vs Jaedong WCS season 2 championship on newkirk I think.
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On September 26 2013 23:46 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 23:23 ETisME wrote:On September 26 2013 23:16 DomeGetta wrote:On September 26 2013 23:12 ETisME wrote:On September 26 2013 23:04 DomeGetta wrote:
Just want to reiterate the key points of my post before someone tried to troll it. I would really like an answer from someone or blizzard about the true motivation for the patch. Even if they want to take the stance of "we fix the stale meta game!" Which I disagree with being a good reason for a patch..someone still has to show why it makes sense to nerf 1 race and buff the other 2 if the game is statistically balanced. A balanced stale meta game is still better than an imbalanced one. Why isit that you think all pro terrans use bio mine? Consider the alternative to bio/mine in TVZ. Is turtle mech less stale? I don't see how it is..and it also favors the zerg drastically. Which is why no one uses it..faster tank reload isnt going to change that. So now u have a diluted bio/mine style that was balanced prior to the nerf (unless someone would pls link me to stats that show otherwise and I'll shut up)..how would u not expect this to become imbalanced? which is why they aren't rolling the changes as a complete patch, they are rolling it out on a balance test map. the patch is not to nerf terran, it is to nerf one style and buff the other to make both mech and bio mech viable. if mech is favoring zerg, then there will be nerf and buff accordingly. Why it is good? because zerg has at least 3 different styles to deal with mech rather than almost 90% of games ling baneling muta vs bio mine. the patch is also to buff protoss so that they would seek out other ways to play other than still turtling too hard style. except I do think blizzard should also nerf protoss defensive style as well. blizzard also isn't liking the trend of having only one style viable. Look beyond stats and balance. Or if you like the word balance so much, there is a complete imbalanceness in the mech vs bio mine in the risk and reward comparison. No one has to convince anyone if the patch should be done because blizzard has the final call here. . Sorry but what you said here is exactly what I'm talking about and what doesn't make sense. The widow mine nerf crushes that style..the tank buff doesnt do nearly enough to make much more viable.. test all you want its brutally obvious to anyone who understands the matchup. it's a damn test map. how many times do I need to screw that into your head? blizzard will nerf bio mine style because they want mine to not function as a better replacement for tanks. It will be their direction to have bio tank and mine as a supportive unit instead of the key unit and there will be patches to help or nerf it accordingly. hell I will pull a naruto here, innovation and flash both have used bio tank style and won games with it, bio tank will work...right? It should be brutally obvious to anyone that it can work too and mech was used more often than bio mine during the hots beta and was fairly good (see thorzain stream), back when the vehicle upgrades combined like what they intend to do later. I'm not gonna teach you about Tvz but marine tank can be used yes against roach hydra not against standard ling bling muta. Show me one game where it was done pls thx. Until then you have no argument to say its viable..unless you are better than the pros who refuse to use it? Simple facts: nerf makes bio/mine underpowered...buff doesn't make mech or marine tank viable .. you heard it here first! The painfully obvious statement that will bring wol back. But hey maybe the viewers who probably won't even notice the patch will be happy.
I would point out that you could be wrong. After all, even the highest level pros have said that nerfs would be huge and buffs would do nothing. The majority of the time they are wrong and they play the game professionally. Unless you are some sort of SC2 prophet, you opinion is your own and you can't just throw it around like it is established fact.
Unless you log in like 100 games on the test map. Then you might have a bit more authority on the subject. Until then, you are just theory crafting.
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On September 26 2013 23:37 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 23:23 Sissors wrote:On September 26 2013 23:04 paddyz wrote:
3: Of all the terran units, I hate tanks the most. Ergo I don't want them buffed if they don't really need it.
Good. Since they really need it. And a 10% cycle time reduction doesn't cut it. Have you actually played with it yet? I ask because I have no idea how you're guaging whether or not its sufficient or not. I mean, it might well not be enough, but I think figuring it out without testing is going to be very difficult, for a few reasons: -Damage has a snowballing effect. The faster you deal damage, the faster you kill enemy units, which means the less time they have to do damage to you, which means more of your units are alive which means you kill them faster, etc. The line between dealing a strong but balanced amount of damage, and a broken amount of damage, is therefore quite thin. -As a long-range AOE unit, that snowballing damage effect is multiplied exponentially for Tanks. Its not that they're killing units faster one by one, they're killing large clumps of units faster, which means getting the numbers right is even trickier. -Units don't exist in a vacuum. Regardless of whether or not the fight goes long enough that the reduced cooldown gives the Tank another shot, its still dealing damage faster, which means that other units still benefit from that--Tanks have to be balanced not just for pure mech, but also in such a way that compositions like Marine+Tank don't become overpowered. Given all this, while I think its entirely possible that this Tank buff won't be sufficient (and I fully agree that if it isn't they should be buffed more), I also think accurately figuring out whether it is or not is something that can only really be done with testing, so I understand why Blizzard decided to start with a fairly small buff and go from there--if its insufficient, they can just bump it up a bit more and test that. the DMG output isn't why its not used in tvz. Its the speed of long/bling/muta relative to the time it takes to siege and unsiege. You can't move across the map without them bating 10 stims out of u . And forget about once ultras come out..u can turtle sure..but the z will take the whole map and starve u.
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On September 26 2013 23:49 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 23:46 DomeGetta wrote:On September 26 2013 23:23 ETisME wrote:On September 26 2013 23:16 DomeGetta wrote:On September 26 2013 23:12 ETisME wrote:On September 26 2013 23:04 DomeGetta wrote:
Just want to reiterate the key points of my post before someone tried to troll it. I would really like an answer from someone or blizzard about the true motivation for the patch. Even if they want to take the stance of "we fix the stale meta game!" Which I disagree with being a good reason for a patch..someone still has to show why it makes sense to nerf 1 race and buff the other 2 if the game is statistically balanced. A balanced stale meta game is still better than an imbalanced one. Why isit that you think all pro terrans use bio mine? Consider the alternative to bio/mine in TVZ. Is turtle mech less stale? I don't see how it is..and it also favors the zerg drastically. Which is why no one uses it..faster tank reload isnt going to change that. So now u have a diluted bio/mine style that was balanced prior to the nerf (unless someone would pls link me to stats that show otherwise and I'll shut up)..how would u not expect this to become imbalanced? which is why they aren't rolling the changes as a complete patch, they are rolling it out on a balance test map. the patch is not to nerf terran, it is to nerf one style and buff the other to make both mech and bio mech viable. if mech is favoring zerg, then there will be nerf and buff accordingly. Why it is good? because zerg has at least 3 different styles to deal with mech rather than almost 90% of games ling baneling muta vs bio mine. the patch is also to buff protoss so that they would seek out other ways to play other than still turtling too hard style. except I do think blizzard should also nerf protoss defensive style as well. blizzard also isn't liking the trend of having only one style viable. Look beyond stats and balance. Or if you like the word balance so much, there is a complete imbalanceness in the mech vs bio mine in the risk and reward comparison. No one has to convince anyone if the patch should be done because blizzard has the final call here. . Sorry but what you said here is exactly what I'm talking about and what doesn't make sense. The widow mine nerf crushes that style..the tank buff doesnt do nearly enough to make much more viable.. test all you want its brutally obvious to anyone who understands the matchup. it's a damn test map. how many times do I need to screw that into your head? blizzard will nerf bio mine style because they want mine to not function as a better replacement for tanks. It will be their direction to have bio tank and mine as a supportive unit instead of the key unit and there will be patches to help or nerf it accordingly. hell I will pull a naruto here, innovation and flash both have used bio tank style and won games with it, bio tank will work...right? It should be brutally obvious to anyone that it can work too and mech was used more often than bio mine during the hots beta and was fairly good (see thorzain stream), back when the vehicle upgrades combined like what they intend to do later. I'm not gonna teach you about Tvz but marine tank can be used yes against roach hydra not against standard ling bling muta. Show me one game where it was done pls thx. Until then you have no argument to say its viable..unless you are better than the pros who refuse to use it? Simple facts: nerf makes bio/mine underpowered...buff doesn't make mech or marine tank viable .. you heard it here first! The painfully obvious statement that will bring wol back. But hey maybe the viewers who probably won't even notice the patch will be happy. Bomber vs Jaedong WCS season 2 championship on newkirk I think.
I will check this out for sure. Thx
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I would point out that you could be wrong. After all, even the highest level pros have said that nerfs would be huge and buffs would do nothing. The majority of the time they are wrong and they play the game professionally. Unless you are some sort of SC2 prophet, you opinion is your own and you can't just throw it around like it is established fact.
In general, "Pro X said Y, so it must be true!" is a dumb thing to say, if for no other reason then that even most Pros disagree with each other about various facets of the game and what they'd like to see changed. Thats not to say Pro feedback is useless or anything, but its silly to just take it at face value and think "this guy is good at this game, therefore all of his opinions on it are objectively correct", because there are almost certainly people who are equally good who disagree with that guy.
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EPT
