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On September 26 2013 19:41 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 19:09 liberate71 wrote:On September 26 2013 04:12 sigm wrote:On September 26 2013 04:07 ZAiNs wrote:
DTs :/ Yeah, unfortunately it seems like someone from Blizz read the TL thread and saw all the whiners, and instead of changing the proposed buff like they did with the Oracle, they just scrapped it altogether. Shame about that. Uh... wouldn't that mean that all the 'buff' changes would be under the 'Disapprove' category? as 2/3 of the people would vote against it? Oh wait, no, that's not what happened. Way to be wrong. Shame on Blizzard for listening to the community and trying to create a better game. Those are often two different things. Why are you generalizing so much? We don't live in the world where you can either scrap anything the community down votes or they don't listen at all. The point wasn't that every time people cry the immediatly jump ship, but rather that there are times where they get super bad feedback and immediatly abondon an idea rather than trying to tweak it. Best exmplae for this is the warhound: They spent 2+ fucking years working on that thing, then everyone qqd for one week when only pros had beta and they just removed the entire unit. Obv there are cases, like this time around the oracle (though they have been talking about an oracle change for months now) they do adjust when bad feedback comes in, people are just complaing that it isn't happening often enough.
You have absolutely no idea how video game development works. Blizzard worked 2 years on the WHOLE expansion, including all changes to battle.net.
The warhound is just this tiny little asset that they created, which still appears in the campaign mode, so it wasn't even scrapped. The same thing happens to many other units such as the diamondback, the lurker, the firebat, the wraith, etc.
Moreover, Blizzard realized that the warhound's role overlaps too much with the marauder and takes away from what makes Mech play different from bio.
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On September 26 2013 20:28 xongnox wrote:
Windows mines splash surface is nerfed BY HALF, and they compensate it by one more tank shoot every 10 times. I wonder if new Siege tank will actually fire one more time than the old in a TvZ engagement, probably not in most case. Maybe the last shot will not splash your marines as before, that's all.
So it's a very hard nerf of TvZ, while the MU is actually pretty fun and balanced. One the other hand there are one boring and imbalanced MU in PvT, where Protoss wins 95% of late-game situations ( however Toss have 150 1or2 base powerfuls all-ins if they want to win earlier), and... they just buff toss all-ins. Yeah, right.
They don't compensate at all, it is a fun and balanced matchup and turns heavily into the favor of Terran if a Mine hits a giant mass of lings (or in favor of the Zerg if a giant group of Marines or Medivacs is hit), other then that it is a back and forth. That would not be prevented as the Pro games usually revolves around small ling baneling teams running in and the nerfed splash is more then enough for it. So it actually only removes the gamebreaking moments Widow Mines have. (Actually it is also a buff, since your whole Marine army doesn't die to an hallucination or an speed Overseer anymore ... I will miss this)
So it actually helps noobs. The only factor that could happen is that the splash is so weak now, that a-moving over the Terran army becomes viable. (in that case the patch would have to be changed)
The only thing where the reduced range becomes critical is against Busts, thats probably why we saw the Attack speed increase, since a Tank hits the Banelings twice now before reaching the Depots. (100% damage increase against slow banelings without creep yay !)
So we might actually see an combination of Siege tanks and Widowmines in TvZ and that would be awesome and super hard to control, so probably not since the game is to fast for hard to control stuff.
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What about keeping the splash radious vs air but reducing it on the ground? An explosion in mid-air spread farther, right? Minesniping with mutas should feel risky imo.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 26 2013 21:46 Slydie wrote:
What about keeping the splash radious vs air but reducing it on the ground? An explosion in mid-air spread farther, right? Minesniping with mutas should feel risky imo.
Minesniping with mutas is even riskier than simply flying near random widow mine, since you ALWAYS stack dem mutas to snipe the mine. So if rocket does get off, it does TERRIBLE TERRIBLE damage all the time.
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I like the suggestions of people I have read from the threads:
1. how about charge upgrade to give a bit of movement speed to DTs too? just a little bit like zealot's movement buff after upgrade ? say 3.1 not 3.375
2. bigger shields and less life for oracle for more regen. change it up 100 shields / 60 life?
3. a bit quicker transformation for the transformers, maybe a transformation upgrade for tanks, vikings and hellions.
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On September 26 2013 21:46 Slydie wrote:
What about keeping the splash radious vs air but reducing it on the ground? An explosion in mid-air spread farther, right? Minesniping with mutas should feel risky imo.
Agree to an extent. Medivacs and Mutas cost the same. Both got (mostly) defensive buffs in the add-on, Medivacs speed and Mutas regen. Still looking at progames, it seems to me it's much easier to keep Medivacs alive than Mutas.
That said, I like the mine and the gameplay it encourages in TvZ. Would have preferred a Bio or Medivac nerf instead to go with a tank buff, but whatever.
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On September 26 2013 21:21 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 20:28 xongnox wrote:
Windows mines splash surface is nerfed BY HALF, and they compensate it by one more tank shoot every 10 times. I wonder if new Siege tank will actually fire one more time than the old in a TvZ engagement, probably not in most case. Maybe the last shot will not splash your marines as before, that's all.
So it's a very hard nerf of TvZ, while the MU is actually pretty fun and balanced. One the other hand there are one boring and imbalanced MU in PvT, where Protoss wins 95% of late-game situations ( however Toss have 150 1or2 base powerfuls all-ins if they want to win earlier), and... they just buff toss all-ins. Yeah, right. They don't compensate at all, it is a fun and balanced matchup and turns heavily into the favor of Terran if a Mine hits a giant mass of lings (or in favor of the Zerg if a giant group of Marines or Medivacs is hit), other then that it is a back and forth. That would not be prevented as the Pro games usually revolves around small ling baneling teams running in and the nerfed splash is more then enough for it. So it actually only removes the gamebreaking moments Widow Mines have. (Actually it is also a buff, since your whole Marine army doesn't die to an hallucination or an speed Overseer anymore ... I will miss this) So it actually helps noobs. The only factor that could happen is that the splash is so weak now, that a-moving over the Terran army becomes viable. (in that case the patch would have to be changed) The only thing where the reduced range becomes critical is against Busts, thats probably why we saw the Attack speed increase, since a Tank hits the Banelings twice now before reaching the Depots. (100% damage increase against slow banelings without creep yay !) So we might actually see an combination of Siege tanks and Widowmines in TvZ and that would be awesome and super hard to control, so probably not since the game is to fast for hard to control stuff.
Sorry but I don't beleive for a moment this isn't a huge nerf to widow mines, also at pro level. Sure if the widow mine now already only hits one ling it is not a difference, but when that would happen generally then widow mines would already be horrible. In general they hit more, even if the zerg doesn't clump everything up and a-moves. With a 50% reduction in splash area that is a huge nerf.
On September 26 2013 21:47 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 21:46 Slydie wrote:
What about keeping the splash radious vs air but reducing it on the ground? An explosion in mid-air spread farther, right? Minesniping with mutas should feel risky imo. Minesniping with mutas is even riskier than simply flying near random widow mine, since you ALWAYS stack dem mutas to snipe the mine. So if rocket does get off, it does TERRIBLE TERRIBLE damage all the time.
Which barely ever happens. And if it does happen, then they go back for 10 seconds and regenerate HP. For WoL mutas splashing the whole muta ball is relevant, for HotS mutas not so much.
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Am i right with this?
Acceleration buffs makes units that are microed move more faster and react faster than non microed but same units?
If yes then blizzard should check all accelaration speeds and apply a good bit of buffs to all units, that way, a microed unit is better than an attack move mode unit. Example, even a thor, when microed since the acceleration change would be better than A mode thor. This way distinction from players with great micro can still make a difference and would give distinction. Say Hero's Warp prisms.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 26 2013 21:58 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 21:47 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 26 2013 21:46 Slydie wrote:
What about keeping the splash radious vs air but reducing it on the ground? An explosion in mid-air spread farther, right? Minesniping with mutas should feel risky imo. Minesniping with mutas is even riskier than simply flying near random widow mine, since you ALWAYS stack dem mutas to snipe the mine. So if rocket does get off, it does TERRIBLE TERRIBLE damage all the time. Which barely ever happens. And if it does happen, then they go back for 10 seconds and regenerate HP. For WoL mutas splashing the whole muta ball is relevant, for HotS mutas not so much.
It does happen often enough, especially in 10-15 muta clumps minesniping situations. Also, 40 seconds, not 10, learntehgame.
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On September 26 2013 21:59 woreyour wrote:
Am i right with this?
Acceleration buffs makes units that are microed move more faster and react faster than non microed but same units?
If yes then blizzard should check all accelaration speeds and apply a good bit of buffs to all units, that way, a microed unit is better than an attack mode unit. Example, even a thor, when microed since the acceleration change would be better than A mode thor. This way distinction from players with great micro can still make a difference and would give distinction. Say Hero's Warp prisms.
these are units that are supposed to be large, slow, and lumbering. it would be silly if a thor could move and attack like a marine.
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On September 26 2013 21:17 S1eth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 19:41 Lorch wrote:On September 26 2013 19:09 liberate71 wrote:On September 26 2013 04:12 sigm wrote:On September 26 2013 04:07 ZAiNs wrote:
DTs :/ Yeah, unfortunately it seems like someone from Blizz read the TL thread and saw all the whiners, and instead of changing the proposed buff like they did with the Oracle, they just scrapped it altogether. Shame about that. Uh... wouldn't that mean that all the 'buff' changes would be under the 'Disapprove' category? as 2/3 of the people would vote against it? Oh wait, no, that's not what happened. Way to be wrong. Shame on Blizzard for listening to the community and trying to create a better game. Those are often two different things. Why are you generalizing so much? We don't live in the world where you can either scrap anything the community down votes or they don't listen at all. The point wasn't that every time people cry the immediatly jump ship, but rather that there are times where they get super bad feedback and immediatly abondon an idea rather than trying to tweak it. Best exmplae for this is the warhound: They spent 2+ fucking years working on that thing, then everyone qqd for one week when only pros had beta and they just removed the entire unit. Obv there are cases, like this time around the oracle (though they have been talking about an oracle change for months now) they do adjust when bad feedback comes in, people are just complaing that it isn't happening often enough. You have absolutely no idea how video game development works. Blizzard worked 2 years on the WHOLE expansion, including all changes to battle.net. The warhound is just this tiny little asset that they created, which still appears in the campaign mode, so it wasn't even scrapped. The same thing happens to many other units such as the diamondback, the lurker, the firebat, the wraith, etc. Moreover, Blizzard realized that the warhound's role overlaps too much with the marauder and takes away from what makes Mech play different from bio.
so i guess they didn't realize how much the widow mine overlaps with the siege tank in those two years?
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On September 26 2013 22:03 a176 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 21:59 woreyour wrote:
Am i right with this?
Acceleration buffs makes units that are microed move more faster and react faster than non microed but same units?
If yes then blizzard should check all accelaration speeds and apply a good bit of buffs to all units, that way, a microed unit is better than an attack mode unit. Example, even a thor, when microed since the acceleration change would be better than A mode thor. This way distinction from players with great micro can still make a difference and would give distinction. Say Hero's Warp prisms. these are units that are supposed to be large, slow, and lumbering. it would be silly if a thor could move and attack like a marine.
it was just an example, but even though. A microed unit should always be better because of the animation cancelling involved. It does not mean it would be a very big thing, lets just say that when you micro it it would profit you with 1 or 2 more shots (not sure what is the impact) but the point is a microed unit would always be better than left attacking in attack move mode. This way people with extra effort of microing can reap more rewards, he can always choose to multitask better or just choose straight macroing.
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On September 26 2013 20:16 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 20:05 Mutineer wrote:
I do not undestand why area effect of widow mine have to be cut in half, but siege tank buf is only 10% dps. Because Widow Mine shoots every 40 seconds, when Siege Tank can shoot every 2.7 seconds
the problem with the siege tank/widow mine comparison is ling bling muta play where zerg just runs into the terran army for close combat. the siege tank's attack speed doesnt mean a thing in the end if it only attacks once or twice before its surrounded by lings and blings.
the difference here being the one siege tank shot does incredibly less damage than the widow mine shot, for 3x the cost, and it doesnt even hit mutas.
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Where are the stats that show Terran being overpowered? Can someone please link? If there aren't any stats that show that since the last patch with overseer speed can someone please explain why they are nerfing Terran and buffing the other 2 races? There is no possible way to interpret mech upgrade and tank reload as more of a benefit than the widow mine nerf is a negative as neither of those things are even used in the tvz meta game. So if the game is balanced why are we nerfing Terran? Widow mines will now do half what they use to in Tvz. We already saw DRG roll innovation with the current mines..is this for serious?? I didn't play BW but I am a mid master T and I honestly can say that if this nerf goes through there will be no reason to play T. I will certainly switch. But the reason I bring up BW is BC I'm wondering was there ever a time where the game became stable I.e. no more patching? Shouldn't patching only be used as a last resort to statistically significant imbalance?? Its such a joke to listen to the logic of "let's make it more exciting!" As if for some reason people will watch more BC you keep screwing with the game?? If you want to grow the game market for more sponsors and invest in bigger prizes to stimulate more competition..people like watching 2 nerds duke it out for 100K..they don't like watching a crowd of 40 people at a live event see 2 people play for a 1500 dollar grand prize..this constant patching for no reason is obnoxious and ineffective. All it does is reset the meta game and make the limited time casuals can put in to try to master the game worthless BC they have to relearn builds every few months. STOP THE PATCHING!! Independent of what race I decide to stick to after this patch it would be nice to know that the game will be the same for a while!
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 26 2013 22:19 DomeGetta wrote:
Where are the stats that show Terran being overpowered? Can someone please link? If there aren't any stats that show that since the last patch with overseer speed can someone please explain why they are merging Terran and buffing the other 2 races? There is no possible way to interpret mech upgrade and tank reload as more of a benefit than the widow mine nerf is a negative as neither of those things are even used in the tvz meta game. So if the game is balanced why are we merging Terran? Widow mines will now do half what they use to in Tvz. We already saw DRG roll innovation with the current mines..is this for serious?? I didn't play BW but I am a mid master T and I honestly can say that if this nerf goes through there will be no reason to play T. I will certainly switch. But the reason I bring up BW is BC I'm wondering was there ever a time where the game became stable I.e. no more patching? Shouldn't patching only be used as a last resort to statistically significant imbalance?? Its such a joke to listen to the logic of "let's make it more exciting!" As if for some reason people will watch more BC you keep screwing with the game?? If you want to grow the game market for more sponsors and invest in bigger prizes to stimulate more competition..people like watching 2 nerds duke it out for 100K..they don't like watching a crowd of 40 people at a live event see 2 people play for a 1500 dollar grand prize..this constant patching for no reason is obnoxious and ineffective. All it does is reset the meta game and make the limited time casuals can put in to try to master the game worthless BC they have to relearn builds every few months. STOP THE PATCHING!! Independent of what race I decide to stick to after this patch it would be nice to know that the game will be the same for a while!
This is quality of life patch, not a 'wewant4040winrates' also, blizzcon winner gets 100k bux, is that not enough for you?
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No. One tournament a year for high stakes is obviously not enough is it? Or are the viewers booming and all these obnoxious Save SC2 posts trolls?
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 26 2013 22:24 DomeGetta wrote:
No. One tournament a year for high stakes is obviously not enough is it? Or are the viewers booming and all these obnoxious Save SC2 posts trolls?
More than enough, because WCS is already a good way to throw money of out of the window, thank god Blizzard has a spare million for that.
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Valid point bro. BC in my original post I said blizzard should be the one paying didn't I. Yep let's just keep patching that oughtta do it.
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I still think the Widow Mine nerf is too drastic. Simple math might deceive you because even tho it's only a 29% radius reduction, it total area it's nearly half as much as before. I'd rather they keep the full range of 1.75, but modify the damage beyond 1.25 to be weaker. Say, 1.25-1.75 only doing 20 (no shield damage). So Widow mines will still chip away at lings, blings, and mutas but the full range won't even kill a bling.
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I'm ok with everything, except for the Oracle Speed buff, i dunno about this, wouldnt it be better to buff the accelration even more and let speed be. Glad they didnt went further with the DT speed buff, thank god for that..
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EPT
