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On September 26 2013 17:24 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 17:06 iaguz wrote:On September 26 2013 16:09 NarutO wrote:On September 26 2013 04:12 sigm wrote:On September 26 2013 04:07 ZAiNs wrote:
DTs :/ Yeah, unfortunately it seems like someone from Blizz read the TL thread and saw all the whiners, and instead of changing the proposed buff like they did with the Oracle, they just scrapped it altogether. Shame about that. Because DTs don't need a buff. They are perfectly viable, often seen and powerful. a speed buff for DT's doesn't fix their main issue which is that there are two kinds of Protoss units. Deathball units and other, and there's very limited role overlap. Mutalisks and Medivacs have tons of use in regular fights and they also happen to make for fine harassment. The other issue is that a Protoss can only allocate so much gas away from his deathball without losing the ability for it to just steamroll the opponent at the correct time (in tvp anyway, the strength of a 3/3 200/200 protoss army isn't just that it's incredibly fucking powerful and kinda simple to use, it's that the protoss hits you with it whilst terran is only at 2/2 which is massively problematic). Making DT's faster doesn't fix that they're a kind of inefficient combat unit. Same goes for DT's. It needs a stronger contribution to the main army before Protoss use them in any not early game harassment/all-in purpose. Unfortunately Blizzard really cannot make the deathball any stronger then it is now which would probably occur if they made the oracle/dt a real combat unit. So as a terran the speed change doesn't bother me that much. I already accepted that dealing with oracles is more about throwing a block in the way more so then being faster then them, and actually killing them is usually the result of a careless Protoss. Kind of like Stalkers vs Marines early game. I don't understand why all units need to be fit multiple roles. While the medivac often times or always is useful to have in fights and can be used to harass, dark templars can be brought up nearly at any place. At any if you have pylons or warpprisms. They are cloaked at any given time and while they are insanely good for harassing, you can choose to make a gas-cheaper archon with them compared to the HT-merched archon. They do have their role and I don't see why someone would feel the need to point out that they should be an addition to the main army as well. Protoss actually has amazing synergie in their units. Zealots are easily the most/best tool you can get for 100 minerals. No other race can get a unit that powerful for just 100 minerals, that is as easily massed and as mobile as the zealot. Zealot/DT raids are insanely powerful already and can potentially force scans which is always good. I realize the problematic situations in PvT, but the 3-3 timings that hit Terran often consist of a ton of zealots, as they benefit greatly from upgrades and depending on the game you can also hit 3-3 vs 1-1 so you really don't need to rely on gas units all that much. I think the balance of gas/minerals for Protoss is actually the best in the game. Yet back to the original point of the post. DT drops already hit before stim, if they run faster than anything Terran has on the field at that point, they become even more rewarding and with a lesser risk. DTs were viable and powerful before and that would just increase their value. They can roam the map and scout with good speed, they can harass and in emergency situations can be merched into archons which would fit the deathball well. In addition while Terrans usually have a scan, if they don't DTs are quiet powerful as fighting units as they deal massive damage so I believe buffing the speed of the DT was unneccessary.
It's not about units fulfilling multiple roles per se it's about how much gas can a Protoss allocate away from assembling his initial deathball. A protoss who keeps making DT's/oracles is just going to have a weaker army if his opponent is playing a normalish macro style. Making them faster doesn't really change what an oracle is about it just makes it harder for the terran to punish the Protoss when he's being careless.
Dunno where all the zealot love came from. Making a direct 100 mineral to 100 mineral comparison is silly. Terran have mules, we naturally tend to mine more minerals mid-late game so we're allowed to have our 100 mins not be quite the same.
Oh and the revelation buff is meant to increase their late game power but I predict this won't really be used in tvp. As it is now most Terran don't want to go late against Protoss, and if the Protoss has the luxury to just add in occasional oracles he's probably doing pretty well already.
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On September 26 2013 17:34 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 17:32 Lorch wrote:On September 26 2013 17:27 NarutO wrote:On September 26 2013 17:06 Littlesheep wrote:
Enough Terran/Zerg players complained so the DT change was scrapped, that's why Protoss players never win any tournaments, we don't have enough forum whiners.
Terrans have the poundforpound best forum whiners, keeps them on top of the power rankings. Its strange Protoss manage to get into the finals, but lose there. Maybe not winning the tournament also depends on the players and the situation / how the series goes rather than the race. 9 times in final of 18 tournaments is 50% presence there, I don't think thats too bad. Also that is for premier, in major tournaments Protoss actually dominates. Sick job completly missing the point here: Enough people qq -> Blizzard shifts plans And that is soooooo dangerous. If Blizzard would just ignore the community (lets be fucking honest here as if they listened to anyone during bw patching) we'd probably have a totally different game now, and imo probably a better one. You can't just change your game plans based on some masters and below forum goers who don't even play random for the most part, it will just make for a shittier game. We now get a tank buff + combined upgrades to "help mech", where we could have just balanced out the warhound and have had mech as an option since the dawn of hots in all matchups, but hey people qqd hard enough for a week on reddit and they actually scrapped 2 years of work within a week. On top of that I doubt anyone would actually take who wins most tournaments as an indicator for balance, that's beyond ridiculous. Really? Because I see the point who wins most tournaments brought up at any time in the balance discussion thread. I agree people QQ very hard, but increasing the speed of a already viable and good unit was bogus nonetheless. I agree people QQ too much, but if you see that 95% of the people dislike the change and even Protoss question it, it might be time to re-think. I don't believe the changes made are good but I am willing to see how it goes, but I cannot say that I would have been willing to do so with the DT change, it was unreasonable and thats when people need to speak out.
Well not saying people don't use it (as erm unreasonable as it is), just that his point was that blizzard abonds ship the second enough people bitch, which imo is really dangerous way to balance your game.
No one here actually made the game, so we don't even know what they saw in which version of the game, or whether they actually had dts with that movement speed before etc. pp. 99% don't even get why reavers were removed or why they had to add the marauder etc. pp. And I think you actually need to fully comprehend the making of star 2 and get why they made every change they ever did to even get a somewhat solid opinion on any change they propose. However Blizzard are the only people who fully get it, and David Kim has proven by predicting a lot of things that did happen before hots release that he does get the game very well, and I think they 100% see how that dt change would play out, while most people within the community only see a buff to a unit they probably find annoying already (I have played all three races decently and not once did I actually like playing vs dt, in fact I bitched about them most of the time unless I was using them, and even then I hated getting dtd in pvp).
I think people should speak out when they find it fitting, I just don't think their opinion should be valued this highly, given most don't even understand why the game is the way it is atm.
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On September 26 2013 17:37 shin_toss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 16:49 saddaromma wrote:On September 26 2013 16:42 Big J wrote:
Very nice, blizzard immidiatly listening and:
- not increasing the cheesiness of the oracle, but the longevity instead
- not going through with the DT change
- weakening the nerf to WMs
This looks much better than the original proposed changes! Faster oracle is cheesy too, its even more attractive than cost reduction. But on the brightside its less allinish. at least.. it wouldn't be super rush oracle then just hold position above mineral line. Good control will reward it more
Good control as in a-move over the worker line? With that speed good control of the defender is alot less rewarding, since the oracle is much faster than the workers anyway.
Anyway I just stick to WM in the mineral line, dodge that.
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speed and accel increase for oracle sounds imba
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On September 26 2013 16:49 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 16:42 Big J wrote:
Very nice, blizzard immidiatly listening and:
- not increasing the cheesiness of the oracle, but the longevity instead
- not going through with the DT change
- weakening the nerf to WMs
This looks much better than the original proposed changes! Faster oracle is cheesy too, its even more attractive than cost reduction. But on the brightside its less allinish.
I disagree.
First, it's not cheesy, because of what the term means.  Cheese refers to an unexpected strategy that relies in large parts on lack of information and/or psychological impact on the opponent.
The speed buff doesn't alter something in the expectation of the opponent, while the cost reduction does, as such oracle builds are harder to distinguish from other builds afterwards, due to allowing for a different setup.
Second, I can just hope it's more attractive than cost reduction, given how little oracle use we see and how little a cost reduction would alter in a macro game, compared to the speed+revelation buff.
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On September 26 2013 06:09 Lumi wrote:
I hate to rain on the party of everyone who is excited about the oracle, but this acceleration and speed buff actually means that you literally can't run your workers away from them, ever. Before there was room for an oracle user to stutter step micro in the same direction as the workers, to kill off as many as it could before they actually got out of its range and stayed there. Now it really doesn't matter if you move your drones or not. This makes this the dumbest harass to view / 'defend' in the game, lol. Not to mention that there's like nothing that can catch this thing now. Complete silliness. Blizzard seems to love pulling random changes out of their bum to try with Protoss even more than with the other races.
Yeah agree mutalisk is so retarted unit. It doesnt matter if you move your probes or not. This makes this the dumbest harass to view /'defend' in the game.
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On September 26 2013 11:24 rd wrote:
They should just give recall and time warp to the oracle and do away with the mothership core. Remove pulsar beam and revelation, and suddenly you now have an air caster that is actually useful for more than revealing units around the map after failing/succeeding a coin-flip gamble.
Then afterwards figure out how to make PvP less of a cesspool without such a bludgeon of a solution which describes the MSC's role.
I'm pretty sure what you basically want from the oracle used to be called an arbiter.
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On September 26 2013 17:45 PPN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 11:24 rd wrote:
They should just give recall and time warp to the oracle and do away with the mothership core. Remove pulsar beam and revelation, and suddenly you now have an air caster that is actually useful for more than revealing units around the map after failing/succeeding a coin-flip gamble.
Then afterwards figure out how to make PvP less of a cesspool without such a bludgeon of a solution which describes the MSC's role.
I'm pretty sure what you basically want from the oracle used to be called an arbiter.
I...would be ok with this.
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On September 26 2013 17:40 iaguz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 17:24 NarutO wrote:On September 26 2013 17:06 iaguz wrote:On September 26 2013 16:09 NarutO wrote:On September 26 2013 04:12 sigm wrote:On September 26 2013 04:07 ZAiNs wrote:
DTs :/ Yeah, unfortunately it seems like someone from Blizz read the TL thread and saw all the whiners, and instead of changing the proposed buff like they did with the Oracle, they just scrapped it altogether. Shame about that. Because DTs don't need a buff. They are perfectly viable, often seen and powerful. a speed buff for DT's doesn't fix their main issue which is that there are two kinds of Protoss units. Deathball units and other, and there's very limited role overlap. Mutalisks and Medivacs have tons of use in regular fights and they also happen to make for fine harassment. The other issue is that a Protoss can only allocate so much gas away from his deathball without losing the ability for it to just steamroll the opponent at the correct time (in tvp anyway, the strength of a 3/3 200/200 protoss army isn't just that it's incredibly fucking powerful and kinda simple to use, it's that the protoss hits you with it whilst terran is only at 2/2 which is massively problematic). Making DT's faster doesn't fix that they're a kind of inefficient combat unit. Same goes for DT's. It needs a stronger contribution to the main army before Protoss use them in any not early game harassment/all-in purpose. Unfortunately Blizzard really cannot make the deathball any stronger then it is now which would probably occur if they made the oracle/dt a real combat unit. So as a terran the speed change doesn't bother me that much. I already accepted that dealing with oracles is more about throwing a block in the way more so then being faster then them, and actually killing them is usually the result of a careless Protoss. Kind of like Stalkers vs Marines early game. I don't understand why all units need to be fit multiple roles. While the medivac often times or always is useful to have in fights and can be used to harass, dark templars can be brought up nearly at any place. At any if you have pylons or warpprisms. They are cloaked at any given time and while they are insanely good for harassing, you can choose to make a gas-cheaper archon with them compared to the HT-merched archon. They do have their role and I don't see why someone would feel the need to point out that they should be an addition to the main army as well. Protoss actually has amazing synergie in their units. Zealots are easily the most/best tool you can get for 100 minerals. No other race can get a unit that powerful for just 100 minerals, that is as easily massed and as mobile as the zealot. Zealot/DT raids are insanely powerful already and can potentially force scans which is always good. I realize the problematic situations in PvT, but the 3-3 timings that hit Terran often consist of a ton of zealots, as they benefit greatly from upgrades and depending on the game you can also hit 3-3 vs 1-1 so you really don't need to rely on gas units all that much. I think the balance of gas/minerals for Protoss is actually the best in the game. Yet back to the original point of the post. DT drops already hit before stim, if they run faster than anything Terran has on the field at that point, they become even more rewarding and with a lesser risk. DTs were viable and powerful before and that would just increase their value. They can roam the map and scout with good speed, they can harass and in emergency situations can be merched into archons which would fit the deathball well. In addition while Terrans usually have a scan, if they don't DTs are quiet powerful as fighting units as they deal massive damage so I believe buffing the speed of the DT was unneccessary. It's not about units fulfilling multiple roles per se it's about how much gas can a Protoss allocate away from assembling his initial deathball. A protoss who keeps making DT's/oracles is just going to have a weaker army if his opponent is playing a normalish macro style. Making them faster doesn't really change what an oracle is about it just makes it harder for the terran to punish the Protoss when he's being careless. Dunno where all the zealot love came from. Making a direct 100 mineral to 100 mineral comparison is silly. Terran have mules, we naturally tend to mine more minerals mid-late game so we're allowed to have our 100 mins not be quite the same. Oh and the revelation buff is meant to increase their late game power but I predict this won't really be used in tvp. As it is now most Terran don't want to go late against Protoss, and if the Protoss has the luxury to just add in occasional oracles he's probably doing pretty well already.
Personally I believe Protoss is not allocating gas from his main army, as dark templars are either used as opening or semi-opening (Tails Build) and often have a good transition. The dark shrine got buffed as the costs were decreased, so its a lesser risk while Protoss is also allowed to play greedier which makes up for the gas you would invest early into dark templars. Protoss has more gas at their hands, because there is no need to actually make sentries/stalkers at least not in numbers you would need in WoL.
Personally I believe this already leaves them with a pretty stable game which they can only destroy themselves by doing mistakes and/or being too greedy against certain stuff and end up being punished for it. I would agree that dark templars are more fitting endgame harassment (warpprism raid, runbys) or when approaching unit max. I would put their use into the earlier stages of the game and the early late/very late. I don't feel their use in midgame is as valueable because as you pointed out, they cost gas and they can't do anything zealots wouldn't be able to achieve in a raid for just minerals.
My comparison wasn't to adjucate people about economy, but about synergie. Ofcourse Terran has mules, still the zealot holds amazing synergie as most Protoss units cost a lot of gas and with the zealot you get a powerful combat / harass unit which can also be massed with the ressource being worth less to you (Protoss).
I would agree on the oracle statements.
On September 26 2013 17:40 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 17:34 NarutO wrote:On September 26 2013 17:32 Lorch wrote:On September 26 2013 17:27 NarutO wrote:On September 26 2013 17:06 Littlesheep wrote:
Enough Terran/Zerg players complained so the DT change was scrapped, that's why Protoss players never win any tournaments, we don't have enough forum whiners.
Terrans have the poundforpound best forum whiners, keeps them on top of the power rankings. Its strange Protoss manage to get into the finals, but lose there. Maybe not winning the tournament also depends on the players and the situation / how the series goes rather than the race. 9 times in final of 18 tournaments is 50% presence there, I don't think thats too bad. Also that is for premier, in major tournaments Protoss actually dominates. Sick job completly missing the point here: Enough people qq -> Blizzard shifts plans And that is soooooo dangerous. If Blizzard would just ignore the community (lets be fucking honest here as if they listened to anyone during bw patching) we'd probably have a totally different game now, and imo probably a better one. You can't just change your game plans based on some masters and below forum goers who don't even play random for the most part, it will just make for a shittier game. We now get a tank buff + combined upgrades to "help mech", where we could have just balanced out the warhound and have had mech as an option since the dawn of hots in all matchups, but hey people qqd hard enough for a week on reddit and they actually scrapped 2 years of work within a week. On top of that I doubt anyone would actually take who wins most tournaments as an indicator for balance, that's beyond ridiculous. Really? Because I see the point who wins most tournaments brought up at any time in the balance discussion thread. I agree people QQ very hard, but increasing the speed of a already viable and good unit was bogus nonetheless. I agree people QQ too much, but if you see that 95% of the people dislike the change and even Protoss question it, it might be time to re-think. I don't believe the changes made are good but I am willing to see how it goes, but I cannot say that I would have been willing to do so with the DT change, it was unreasonable and thats when people need to speak out. Well not saying people don't use it (as erm unreasonable as it is), just that his point was that blizzard abonds ship the second enough people bitch, which imo is really dangerous way to balance your game. No one here actually made the game, so we don't even know what they saw in which version of the game, or whether they actually had dts with that movement speed before etc. pp. 99% don't even get why reavers were removed or why they had to add the marauder etc. pp. And I think you actually need to fully comprehend the making of star 2 and get why they made every change they ever did to even get a somewhat solid opinion on any change they propose. However Blizzard are the only people who fully get it, and David Kim has proven by predicting a lot of things that did happen before hots release that he does get the game very well, and I think they 100% see how that dt change would play out, while most people within the community only see a buff to a unit they probably find annoying already (I have played all three races decently and not once did I actually like playing vs dt, in fact I bitched about them most of the time unless I was using them, and even then I hated getting dtd in pvp). I think people should speak out when they find it fitting, I just don't think their opinion should be valued this highly, given most don't even understand why the game is the way it is atm.
I agree. Thats why I will often times post my thoughts and explanation on buffs/nerfs Blizzard suggests. I will think about the effect in the match ups and voice my concerns. I believe this is the feedback Blizzard needs but I would agree that most people are blatantly whining because they dislike something and solely for that purpose. I also agree that its a dangerous approach to listen too much, but it would be as dangerous to not listen enough.
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I think PvP is doomed for this expansion. You could exchange the production rate of Warp Gates with normal Gateways and kill the problem dead, but I'm not sure how P would handle bio and such...
Oh my God!
[Suggestion] New Ability (Immortal): The Immortal Grudge
In the Golden Age of the Immortal-kin they had the ability to be warped-in from the Warp Gate.
But they were left out, always been bearing a grudge, they gain a +50 damage vs Warp Gate units.
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Seems nice, but I'm not sure the buff of the tank compensate enough the nerf of the Widow mine, I guess it has to be tested, hard to see how much it changes the engagement.
About the widow mine, I had several suggestions, while keeping the same damage+AOE (not all at the same time!) :
- increases the AI priority.
- remove drilling claws upgrade (or nerf)
- increase the time between the activation and the attack : Easier for the terran to switch target, easier for the zerg to snipe the mine before it attack.
- OR : reduce this time, easier to trigger for the zerg, but it will punish zerg mistakes (with mutalisk for example).
- show which units are targeted (same as when your unit is targeted by hunter seeker missile)
thoughts?
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People wanting to buff DTs I dont even.
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Oh, and not going ahead with the DT buff is a good idea. Not because of balance but because I'm fairly certain if you asked most starcraft players what the most infuriating unit in the game is they'd probably answer DT's. At least that's what I like to think because seriously, FUCK DARK TEMPLAR.
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Seems nice, but I'm not sure the buff of the tank compensate enough the nerf of the Widow mine, I guess it has to be tested, hard to see how much it changes the engagement.
About the widow mine, I had several suggestions, while keeping the same damage+AOE (not all at the same time!) :
- increases the AI priority.
- remove drilling claws upgrade (or nerf)
- increase the time between the activation and the attack : Easier for the terran to switch target, easier for the zerg to snipe the mine before it attack.
- OR : reduce this time, easier to trigger for the zerg, but it will punish zerg mistakes (with mutalisk for example).
- show which units are targeted (same as when your unit is targeted by hunter seeker missile)
thoughts?
They could also add a normal AOE instead of constant 40 damage.
By this I mean have a 100%/50%/25% of damage areas.
This would mean that in the epicenter it deals 125+35shields to the target it hits, 62.5 damage in a small area around that and lastly a 31 damage in the remainder of the area.
This would still kill big clumps of Banes, but would not kill massive amounts of Lings or Probes on one hit.
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On September 26 2013 17:54 Vanadiel wrote:
Seems nice, but I'm not sure the buff of the tank compensate enough the nerf of the Widow mine, I guess it has to be tested, hard to see how much it changes the engagement.
About the widow mine, I had several suggestions, while keeping the same damage+AOE (not all at the same time!) :
- increases the AI priority.
- remove drilling claws upgrade (or nerf)
- increase the time between the activation and the attack : Easier for the terran to switch target, easier for the zerg to snipe the mine before it attack.
- OR : reduce this time, easier to trigger for the zerg, but it will punish zerg mistakes (with mutalisk for example).
- show which units are targeted (same as when your unit is targeted by hunter seeker missile)
thoughts?
I personally believe, its very hard to judge changes to the widowmine. I believe there are a lot of viable changes or combination of changes. I could point out that I believe reducing damage, but in addition decrease activation time and remove friendly fire would make the mine a better tool and more reliable, and especially would help mech against Protoss, but there is no use to discuss it, becaue its really hard to actually gather information about how it will play out.
To your changes thats what I believe
Increased AI priority:
I believe thats the last thing you want. The mine isn't a very low-hp unit, so increasing their priority might mean your units actually gather around it, so more units get hit. Is that really what you want? I don't think so haha. Other thing ofcourse if you believe you can take it down beforehand!
Remove drilling claws or nerf:
I believe Starcraft 2 is a very fast game, before reducing speed of anything (be it attack or movement) you should look into another approach of the unit. Reducing speed is a crucial nerf and might be even worse than reducing splash/damage. Same goes for the increase of the activation time. Zerg can already close the gap to the Terran army often times resulting in friendly fire, if you increase the time, the fight might be already over or the mine will simply trigger/retrigger (switch targets all the time and not fire at all)
Reduce this time:
I like it, but it would also need to come with another change I believe. Either damage or splash, because switch-target automatically becomes a lot more powerful if the mine is fast-triggering.
Show which units are targetted:
Personally I believe its not needed, but I would also be willing to look into the game and show how this playes out.
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On September 26 2013 17:51 NarutO wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 26 2013 17:40 iaguz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 17:24 NarutO wrote:On September 26 2013 17:06 iaguz wrote:On September 26 2013 16:09 NarutO wrote:On September 26 2013 04:12 sigm wrote:On September 26 2013 04:07 ZAiNs wrote:
DTs :/ Yeah, unfortunately it seems like someone from Blizz read the TL thread and saw all the whiners, and instead of changing the proposed buff like they did with the Oracle, they just scrapped it altogether. Shame about that. Because DTs don't need a buff. They are perfectly viable, often seen and powerful. a speed buff for DT's doesn't fix their main issue which is that there are two kinds of Protoss units. Deathball units and other, and there's very limited role overlap. Mutalisks and Medivacs have tons of use in regular fights and they also happen to make for fine harassment. The other issue is that a Protoss can only allocate so much gas away from his deathball without losing the ability for it to just steamroll the opponent at the correct time (in tvp anyway, the strength of a 3/3 200/200 protoss army isn't just that it's incredibly fucking powerful and kinda simple to use, it's that the protoss hits you with it whilst terran is only at 2/2 which is massively problematic). Making DT's faster doesn't fix that they're a kind of inefficient combat unit. Same goes for DT's. It needs a stronger contribution to the main army before Protoss use them in any not early game harassment/all-in purpose. Unfortunately Blizzard really cannot make the deathball any stronger then it is now which would probably occur if they made the oracle/dt a real combat unit. So as a terran the speed change doesn't bother me that much. I already accepted that dealing with oracles is more about throwing a block in the way more so then being faster then them, and actually killing them is usually the result of a careless Protoss. Kind of like Stalkers vs Marines early game. I don't understand why all units need to be fit multiple roles. While the medivac often times or always is useful to have in fights and can be used to harass, dark templars can be brought up nearly at any place. At any if you have pylons or warpprisms. They are cloaked at any given time and while they are insanely good for harassing, you can choose to make a gas-cheaper archon with them compared to the HT-merched archon. They do have their role and I don't see why someone would feel the need to point out that they should be an addition to the main army as well. Protoss actually has amazing synergie in their units. Zealots are easily the most/best tool you can get for 100 minerals. No other race can get a unit that powerful for just 100 minerals, that is as easily massed and as mobile as the zealot. Zealot/DT raids are insanely powerful already and can potentially force scans which is always good. I realize the problematic situations in PvT, but the 3-3 timings that hit Terran often consist of a ton of zealots, as they benefit greatly from upgrades and depending on the game you can also hit 3-3 vs 1-1 so you really don't need to rely on gas units all that much. I think the balance of gas/minerals for Protoss is actually the best in the game. Yet back to the original point of the post. DT drops already hit before stim, if they run faster than anything Terran has on the field at that point, they become even more rewarding and with a lesser risk. DTs were viable and powerful before and that would just increase their value. They can roam the map and scout with good speed, they can harass and in emergency situations can be merched into archons which would fit the deathball well. In addition while Terrans usually have a scan, if they don't DTs are quiet powerful as fighting units as they deal massive damage so I believe buffing the speed of the DT was unneccessary. It's not about units fulfilling multiple roles per se it's about how much gas can a Protoss allocate away from assembling his initial deathball. A protoss who keeps making DT's/oracles is just going to have a weaker army if his opponent is playing a normalish macro style. Making them faster doesn't really change what an oracle is about it just makes it harder for the terran to punish the Protoss when he's being careless. Dunno where all the zealot love came from. Making a direct 100 mineral to 100 mineral comparison is silly. Terran have mules, we naturally tend to mine more minerals mid-late game so we're allowed to have our 100 mins not be quite the same. Oh and the revelation buff is meant to increase their late game power but I predict this won't really be used in tvp. As it is now most Terran don't want to go late against Protoss, and if the Protoss has the luxury to just add in occasional oracles he's probably doing pretty well already. Personally I believe Protoss is not allocating gas from his main army, as dark templars are either used as opening or semi-opening (Tails Build) and often have a good transition. The dark shrine got buffed as the costs were decreased, so its a lesser risk while Protoss is also allowed to play greedier which makes up for the gas you would invest early into dark templars. Protoss has more gas at their hands, because there is no need to actually make sentries/stalkers at least not in numbers you would need in WoL. Personally I believe this already leaves them with a pretty stable game which they can only destroy themselves by doing mistakes and/or being too greedy against certain stuff and end up being punished for it. I would agree that dark templars are more fitting endgame harassment (warpprism raid, runbys) or when approaching unit max. I would put their use into the earlier stages of the game and the early late/very late. I don't feel their use in midgame is as valueable because as you pointed out, they cost gas and they can't do anything zealots wouldn't be able to achieve in a raid for just minerals. My comparison wasn't to adjucate people about economy, but about synergie. Ofcourse Terran has mules, still the zealot holds amazing synergie as most Protoss units cost a lot of gas and with the zealot you get a powerful combat / harass unit which can also be massed with the ressource being worth less to you (Protoss). I would agree on the oracle statements. On September 26 2013 17:40 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 17:34 NarutO wrote:On September 26 2013 17:32 Lorch wrote:On September 26 2013 17:27 NarutO wrote:On September 26 2013 17:06 Littlesheep wrote:
Enough Terran/Zerg players complained so the DT change was scrapped, that's why Protoss players never win any tournaments, we don't have enough forum whiners.
Terrans have the poundforpound best forum whiners, keeps them on top of the power rankings. Its strange Protoss manage to get into the finals, but lose there. Maybe not winning the tournament also depends on the players and the situation / how the series goes rather than the race. 9 times in final of 18 tournaments is 50% presence there, I don't think thats too bad. Also that is for premier, in major tournaments Protoss actually dominates. Sick job completly missing the point here: Enough people qq -> Blizzard shifts plans And that is soooooo dangerous. If Blizzard would just ignore the community (lets be fucking honest here as if they listened to anyone during bw patching) we'd probably have a totally different game now, and imo probably a better one. You can't just change your game plans based on some masters and below forum goers who don't even play random for the most part, it will just make for a shittier game. We now get a tank buff + combined upgrades to "help mech", where we could have just balanced out the warhound and have had mech as an option since the dawn of hots in all matchups, but hey people qqd hard enough for a week on reddit and they actually scrapped 2 years of work within a week. On top of that I doubt anyone would actually take who wins most tournaments as an indicator for balance, that's beyond ridiculous. Really? Because I see the point who wins most tournaments brought up at any time in the balance discussion thread. I agree people QQ very hard, but increasing the speed of a already viable and good unit was bogus nonetheless. I agree people QQ too much, but if you see that 95% of the people dislike the change and even Protoss question it, it might be time to re-think. I don't believe the changes made are good but I am willing to see how it goes, but I cannot say that I would have been willing to do so with the DT change, it was unreasonable and thats when people need to speak out. Well not saying people don't use it (as erm unreasonable as it is), just that his point was that blizzard abonds ship the second enough people bitch, which imo is really dangerous way to balance your game. No one here actually made the game, so we don't even know what they saw in which version of the game, or whether they actually had dts with that movement speed before etc. pp. 99% don't even get why reavers were removed or why they had to add the marauder etc. pp. And I think you actually need to fully comprehend the making of star 2 and get why they made every change they ever did to even get a somewhat solid opinion on any change they propose. However Blizzard are the only people who fully get it, and David Kim has proven by predicting a lot of things that did happen before hots release that he does get the game very well, and I think they 100% see how that dt change would play out, while most people within the community only see a buff to a unit they probably find annoying already (I have played all three races decently and not once did I actually like playing vs dt, in fact I bitched about them most of the time unless I was using them, and even then I hated getting dtd in pvp). I think people should speak out when they find it fitting, I just don't think their opinion should be valued this highly, given most don't even understand why the game is the way it is atm. I agree. Thats why I will often times post my thoughts and explanation on buffs/nerfs Blizzard suggests. I will think about the effect in the match ups and voice my concerns. I believe this is the feedback Blizzard needs but I would agree that most people are blatantly whining because they dislike something and solely for that purpose. I also agree that its a dangerous approach to listen too much, but it would be as dangerous to not listen enough.
My guts tell me if Bomber/Taeja/Innovation succesfully kill 3-4 dts, they just pull all SCVs and smack down the protoss, since there will be less colossi/templars. DTs are too risky, you just send them in and hope opponent will fuck up defense, whereas muta or banshees have a lot more room to harass and run around.
Only time when dts work is very very late game or base race scenarios. I guess DK attempted to make DTs more viable, like in BW PvZ.
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On September 26 2013 12:28 rd wrote:
Math doesn't work that way. You don't have to fire 11 times and get an extra shot to receive benefits from increased attack speed. Correct. If a unit is killed say one second earlier, then it doesn't have time to deal its next shot, when results in one of your units being able to shoot a couple more times, and so on. That sort of advantage may or may not matter, depending on the battle, but an increase in attack speed gives starts bringing benefits on the second shot.
On September 26 2013 12:22 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 12:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 26 2013 11:43 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On September 26 2013 11:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Oracles do 3x+ the DPS of mutalisks, if you get 4 oracles they decimate static defense and worker lines SOOOOOOOOOOOOO quickly. At the beginning of HotS I didnt take oracles seriously but they do tons of damage. In the time it takes to get 4 oracles, you should have scouted what Protoss is doing and easily have defenses ready in time... Same goes for any number of mutalisks, yet they are still effective harassment. Now, why is that? Because zerg makes 10-20 of them at a time and protoss anti-air sucks complete ass? I now have in mind a picture of 10-15 oracles spawning at once and flying toward a mineral line. My brain is melting from the horror of that thought.
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Lol, Oracle speed buff. When blizzard changes something once, then tries something else it's generally just making it faster 
Anyway, Should be interesting to see what happens!
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like the way they try to tweak the little things with terran and zerg, but they really need to stop this toss bullshit. now oracles can give you permanent vision on all your enemies without even having the slightest threat of losing it, whereas now you at least need to micro them a little. combined with observers it's impossible to surprise a toss. you might as well just give them maphack. If it was just maphack for 3 supply it might not be so bad though, but having maphack+ the ability to clear workerlines in less than 5 sec + permanent stealth detection for just 3 supply is madness. either stop buffing toss all the time, or nerf other things along with the buffs!
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I agree, it's really hard to see how changes would affect the games because the mine is a "tricky" unit, but a step in a good direction would be to reduces the randomness of the mine, the question is how to do it.
On September 26 2013 18:05 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 17:54 Vanadiel wrote:
Seems nice, but I'm not sure the buff of the tank compensate enough the nerf of the Widow mine, I guess it has to be tested, hard to see how much it changes the engagement.
About the widow mine, I had several suggestions, while keeping the same damage+AOE (not all at the same time!) :
- increases the AI priority.
- remove drilling claws upgrade (or nerf)
- increase the time between the activation and the attack : Easier for the terran to switch target, easier for the zerg to snipe the mine before it attack.
- OR : reduce this time, easier to trigger for the zerg, but it will punish zerg mistakes (with mutalisk for example).
- show which units are targeted (same as when your unit is targeted by hunter seeker missile)
thoughts? I personally believe, its very hard to judge changes to the widowmine. I believe there are a lot of viable changes or combination of changes. I could point out that I believe reducing damage, but in addition decrease activation time and remove friendly fire would make the mine a better tool and more reliable, and especially would help mech against Protoss, but there is no use to discuss it, becaue its really hard to actually gather information about how it will play out. To your changes thats what I believe Increased AI priority: I believe thats the last thing you want. The mine isn't a very low-hp unit, so increasing their priority might mean your units actually gather around it, so more units get hit. Is that really what you want? I don't think so haha. Other thing ofcourse if you believe you can take it down beforehand!
mmmh, I don't know about this one, I was also talking about unburrow widow mine which has a IA priority so low that if you don't target all of them manually your army never attack it. For burrowed WM, the way Zerg play against widow mine these day is by manually detonate baneling on top of the widow mine.
Remove drilling claws or nerf:
I believe Starcraft 2 is a very fast game, before reducing speed of anything (be it attack or movement) you should look into another approach of the unit. Reducing speed is a crucial nerf and might be even worse than reducing splash/damage. Same goes for the increase of the activation time. Zerg can already close the gap to the Terran army often times resulting in friendly fire, if you increase the time, the fight might be already over or the mine will simply trigger/retrigger (switch targets all the time and not fire at all)
While it's true, WM is already very fast to burrow if you compare to what tank push was in WoL, plus a low IA priority and the speed medivacs, it's very hard to deny terran a position near your base.
Reduce this time:
I like it, but it would also need to come with another change I believe. Either damage or splash, because switch-target automatically becomes a lot more powerful if the mine is fast-triggering.
Show which units are targetted:
Personally I believe its not needed, but I would also be willing to look into the game and show how this playes out.
Well that the point, I don't know if it's needed or if it would make the game better, but it would be nice to see it tested. I thought that some very fast player like Life/DRG/Soulkey would be able to split their units away from the targeted unit, and, at least from a spectator point of view , it would be interesting to see (if they do) terran switching targets.
Other question, I don't know much about TvT :
If it's mech vs Bio tank, which player would benefit the most of the attack rate change of the tank?
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