EPT- not increasing the cheesiness of the oracle, but the longevity instead
- not going through with the DT change
- weakening the nerf to WMs
This looks much better than the original proposed changes!
Updated Balance Test Map - Page 13
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
- not increasing the cheesiness of the oracle, but the longevity instead - not going through with the DT change - weakening the nerf to WMs This looks much better than the original proposed changes! | ||
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wishr
Russian Federation262 Posts
On September 26 2013 16:38 saltis wrote: I am a zerg player and i blame myself for not having good enough micro vs Terran. I would agree with WM nerf but not to that extend. Would say 1.35 would be optimum nerf of mines, 1.1 or 1.25 makes mines useless in general. 1.25 = %50 radius nerf. Dont lie we know u are terran  just try to play a test map.Mines supposed to be a support not a kill-all unit. Now u need use tanks+mines, not just pure stupid no control unit. | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On September 26 2013 16:42 Big J wrote: Very nice, blizzard immidiatly listening and: - not increasing the cheesiness of the oracle, but the longevity instead - not going through with the DT change - weakening the nerf to WMs This looks much better than the original proposed changes! Faster oracle is cheesy too, its even more attractive than cost reduction. But on the brightside its less allinish. | ||
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padiseal2
Austria721 Posts
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On September 26 2013 16:09 NarutO wrote: Because DTs don't need a buff. They are perfectly viable, often seen and powerful. a speed buff for DT's doesn't fix their main issue which is that there are two kinds of Protoss units. Deathball units and other, and there's very limited role overlap. Mutalisks and Medivacs have tons of use in regular fights and they also happen to make for fine harassment. The other issue is that a Protoss can only allocate so much gas away from his deathball without losing the ability for it to just steamroll the opponent at the correct time (in tvp anyway, the strength of a 3/3 200/200 protoss army isn't just that it's incredibly fucking powerful and kinda simple to use, it's that the protoss hits you with it whilst terran is only at 2/2 which is massively problematic). Making DT's faster doesn't fix that they're a kind of inefficient combat unit. Same goes for DT's. It needs a stronger contribution to the main army before Protoss use them in any not early game harassment/all-in purpose. Unfortunately Blizzard really cannot make the deathball any stronger then it is now which would probably occur if they made the oracle/dt a real combat unit. So as a terran the speed change doesn't bother me that much. I already accepted that dealing with oracles is more about throwing a block in the way more so then being faster then them, and actually killing them is usually the result of a careless Protoss. Kind of like Stalkers vs Marines early game. | ||
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Littlesheep
Canada217 Posts
Terrans have the poundforpound best forum whiners, keeps them on top of the power rankings. | ||
iHirO
United Kingdom1381 Posts
On September 26 2013 16:55 padiseal2 wrote: We're probably going to see a lot more oracle hallucinations now. They are nearly as fast as phoenix now, so in terms of scouting they will get the same done and additionally they add a minor threat to the opponent Thats a really good point! | ||
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DusTerr
2520 Posts
On September 26 2013 17:06 iaguz wrote: a speed buff for DT's doesn't fix their main issue which is that there are two kinds of Protoss units. Deathball units and other, and there's very limited role overlap. Mutalisks and Medivacs have tons of use in regular fights and they also happen to make for fine harassment. The other issue is that a Protoss can only allocate so much gas away from his deathball without losing the ability for it to just steamroll the opponent at the correct time (in tvp anyway, the strength of a 3/3 200/200 protoss army isn't just that it's incredibly fucking powerful and kinda simple to use, it's that the protoss hits you with it whilst terran is only at 2/2 which is massively problematic). Making DT's faster doesn't fix that they're a kind of inefficient combat unit. Same goes for DT's. It needs a stronger contribution to the main army before Protoss use them in any not early game harassment/all-in purpose. Unfortunately Blizzard really cannot make the deathball any stronger then it is now which would probably occur if they made the oracle/dt a real combat unit. So as a terran the speed change doesn't bother me that much. I already accepted that dealing with oracles is more about throwing a block in the way more so then being faster then them, and actually killing them is usually the result of a careless Protoss. Kind of like Stalkers vs Marines early game. I've still seen VERY effective late game harass with zealots and a few DTs. Zealots kill the spore/turret/cannon and DT's clean up. (Maybe I just watch too much welmu and elfi...) On September 26 2013 17:06 Littlesheep wrote: Enough Terran/Zerg players complained so the DT change was scrapped, that's why Protoss players never win any tournaments, we don't have enough forum whiners. Terrans have the poundforpound best forum whiners, keeps them on top of the power rankings. Worked well for the last 6 months of WoL... | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On September 26 2013 17:10 DusTerr wrote: I've still seen VERY effective late game harass with zealots and a few DTs. Zealots kill the spore/turret/cannon and DT's clean up. (Maybe I just watch too much welmu and elfi...) Worked well for the last 6 months of WoL... I meant in terms of gas, zealots are a bit of a exception to what I said. It's similar to mech vs bio where the mech player is happy to trade minerals for minerals, just so long as he gets more time to harvest gas and turn it into winning. The mass dt warp in shenanigans is generally when the game has got to a stalematey cross map situation where the Protoss and terran have both assembled huge armies and it's very difficult to just attack your opponent without eating loads of storms or EMP's/pforts. TvP rarely gets to that stage though thanks to tempests forcing terran to have to do stuff. Some Protoss do like just chucking a few DT's around to confound the terran late game though. I guess it's fun? | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On September 26 2013 17:06 iaguz wrote: a speed buff for DT's doesn't fix their main issue which is that there are two kinds of Protoss units. Deathball units and other, and there's very limited role overlap. Mutalisks and Medivacs have tons of use in regular fights and they also happen to make for fine harassment. The other issue is that a Protoss can only allocate so much gas away from his deathball without losing the ability for it to just steamroll the opponent at the correct time (in tvp anyway, the strength of a 3/3 200/200 protoss army isn't just that it's incredibly fucking powerful and kinda simple to use, it's that the protoss hits you with it whilst terran is only at 2/2 which is massively problematic). Making DT's faster doesn't fix that they're a kind of inefficient combat unit. Same goes for DT's. It needs a stronger contribution to the main army before Protoss use them in any not early game harassment/all-in purpose. Unfortunately Blizzard really cannot make the deathball any stronger then it is now which would probably occur if they made the oracle/dt a real combat unit. So as a terran the speed change doesn't bother me that much. I already accepted that dealing with oracles is more about throwing a block in the way more so then being faster then them, and actually killing them is usually the result of a careless Protoss. Kind of like Stalkers vs Marines early game. I don't understand why all units need to be fit multiple roles. While the medivac often times or always is useful to have in fights and can be used to harass, dark templars can be brought up nearly at any place. At any if you have pylons or warpprisms. They are cloaked at any given time and while they are insanely good for harassing, you can choose to make a gas-cheaper archon with them compared to the HT-merched archon. They do have their role and I don't see why someone would feel the need to point out that they should be an addition to the main army as well. Protoss actually has amazing synergie in their units. Zealots are easily the most/best tool you can get for 100 minerals. No other race can get a unit that powerful for just 100 minerals, that is as easily massed and as mobile as the zealot. Zealot/DT raids are insanely powerful already and can potentially force scans which is always good. I realize the problematic situations in PvT, but the 3-3 timings that hit Terran often consist of a ton of zealots, as they benefit greatly from upgrades and depending on the game you can also hit 3-3 vs 1-1 so you really don't need to rely on gas units all that much. I think the balance of gas/minerals for Protoss is actually the best in the game. Yet back to the original point of the post. DT drops already hit before stim, if they run faster than anything Terran has on the field at that point, they become even more rewarding and with a lesser risk. DTs were viable and powerful before and that would just increase their value. They can roam the map and scout with good speed, they can harass and in emergency situations can be merched into archons which would fit the deathball well. In addition while Terrans usually have a scan, if they don't DTs are quiet powerful as fighting units as they deal massive damage so I believe buffing the speed of the DT was unneccessary. | ||
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Pontius Pirate
United States1557 Posts
On September 26 2013 14:58 TheRabidDeer wrote: How are you getting different numbers than he got in that post? And how does 35 + 23 compare to 73 damage? Your post confuses me and I am not sure if it is just because it is late. SC1 runs at 24 frames per second at the "fastest" setting, according to that same poster. BW tank cooldown is 75. 75/24=3.125. 70, the +0 attack score of the BW seige tank, is divided by 3.125 to equal 22.4, and similar deal for the +3 attack score, which is 85. The reason why 35 + 23 armored compares with 73 is that the 73 is really 44 + 29 armored damage, which is a seige tank at +3 upgrades, in my hypothetical example. 35 + 23 obviously still equals 58, but I didn't bother including the unupgraded damage, because I couldn't think of anything particularly important that in factors into. I guess it 3-hit kills opposing seige tanks, as well as roaches, stalkers, just misses the 3HKO on the queen, kills the thor in 7 hits, etc. But those late-game units are more affected by the fully-upgraded damage, such as the 5 shots to kill a colossus and the 7 shots to kill an ultralisk. It is late. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On September 26 2013 17:06 Littlesheep wrote: Enough Terran/Zerg players complained so the DT change was scrapped, that's why Protoss players never win any tournaments, we don't have enough forum whiners. Terrans have the poundforpound best forum whiners, keeps them on top of the power rankings. Its strange Protoss manage to get into the finals, but lose there. Maybe not winning the tournament also depends on the players and the situation / how the series goes rather than the race. 9 times in final of 18 tournaments is 50% presence there, I don't think thats too bad. Also that is for premier, in major tournaments Protoss actually dominates. | ||
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
Or 2 oracles for constant revelation vs 6 observers!! | ||
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Lorch
Germany3690 Posts
On September 26 2013 17:27 NarutO wrote: Its strange Protoss manage to get into the finals, but lose there. Maybe not winning the tournament also depends on the players and the situation / how the series goes rather than the race. 9 times in final of 18 tournaments is 50% presence there, I don't think thats too bad. Also that is for premier, in major tournaments Protoss actually dominates. Sick job completly missing the point here: Enough people qq -> Blizzard shifts plans And that is soooooo dangerous. If Blizzard would just ignore the community (lets be fucking honest here as if they listened to anyone during bw patching) we'd probably have a totally different game now, and imo probably a better one. You can't just change your game plans based on some masters and below forum goers who don't even play random for the most part, it will just make for a shittier game. We now get a tank buff + combined upgrades to "help mech", where we could have just balanced out the warhound and have had mech as an option since the dawn of hots in all matchups, but hey people qqd hard enough for a week on reddit and they actually scrapped 2 years of work within a week. On top of that I doubt anyone would actually take who wins most tournaments as an indicator for balance, that's beyond ridiculous. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On September 26 2013 16:48 wishr wrote: Dont lie we know u are terran just try to play a test map.Mines supposed to be a support not a kill-all unit. Now u need use tanks+mines, not just pure stupid no control unit. And that is imo the problem you describe. This isn't a nerf to make 4M less effective. It is one to kill it as viable option. Then saying you need to use tanks is easy, but that is an enormous nerf that completely alters the dynamics of the entire matchup (TvZ). Currently in a direct fight it is already doubtful if tanks are as good as widow mines unless you really have a critical number of tanks. But then you need to add that tanks are horribly slow and easily picked off by hots mutas. Marine - tank and pure mech builds aren't simply different that they don't have WMs which can with some luck kill alot of banelings. They need to be played completely different, and I doubt that is viable in HotS with all the boosts zerg got to specifically counter that. 10% faster cycle rate of tanks isn't going to change that. | ||
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padiseal2
Austria721 Posts
On September 26 2013 17:29 Kharnage wrote: Oracle longevity issue is supply cost. No one is going to convince me that an oracle casting revelation is better than 3 obs. Or 2 oracles for constant revelation vs 6 observers!! Maybe a fleet beacon upgrade that reduces supply from 3 to 2? That probably sounds retarded and there's nothing of that sort in the game as of now, but I think it may help. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On September 26 2013 17:32 Lorch wrote: Sick job completly missing the point here: Enough people qq -> Blizzard shifts plans And that is soooooo dangerous. If Blizzard would just ignore the community (lets be fucking honest here as if they listened to anyone during bw patching) we'd probably have a totally different game now, and imo probably a better one. You can't just change your game plans based on some masters and below forum goers who don't even play random for the most part, it will just make for a shittier game. We now get a tank buff + combined upgrades to "help mech", where we could have just balanced out the warhound and have had mech as an option since the dawn of hots in all matchups, but hey people qqd hard enough for a week on reddit and they actually scrapped 2 years of work within a week. On top of that I doubt anyone would actually take who wins most tournaments as an indicator for balance, that's beyond ridiculous. Really? Because I see the point who wins most tournaments brought up at any time in the balance discussion thread. I agree people QQ very hard, but increasing the speed of a already viable and good unit was bogus nonetheless. I agree people QQ too much, but if you see that 95% of the people dislike the change and even Protoss question it, it might be time to re-think. I don't believe the changes made are good but I am willing to see how it goes, but I cannot say that I would have been willing to do so with the DT change, it was unreasonable and thats when people need to speak out. | ||
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
On September 26 2013 16:49 saddaromma wrote: Faster oracle is cheesy too, its even more attractive than cost reduction. But on the brightside its less allinish. at least.. it wouldn't be super rush oracle then just hold position above mineral line. Good control will reward it more | ||
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Treishtrei
Romania11 Posts
This spell isn't used anymore! | ||
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