EPTUpdated Balance Test Map - Page 12
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pedduck
Thailand468 Posts
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SsDrKosS
330 Posts
SC2 TANK SHOULD BE AWESOME AS BW TANK!!!! tadada dada tadada dadan~ I'm about to drop the hammer... ...and dispense some indiscriminate justice! Edit: forgot to thank about op. I love dat picture~ | ||
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xxjcdentonxx
Canada163 Posts
Burrowed Roach Speed Without Speed Upgrade: 1.4062 With Speed Upgrade: 2.1562 Proposed Changes: Burrowed Roach Speed Without Speed Upgrade: 1.4062 (?) With Speed Upgrade: 2.25 4.35% faster. Am I missing something? | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On September 26 2013 12:40 Nerevar wrote: 5 units including mutas, ovies, corruptors, broodlords, and overseers. More if you include neuraling a probe, rebuilding the protoss tech tree up to stargate, and using phoenixes to pick up any number of ground-based biological units. Oh right... I always forget those other units show up in a zvz.... | ||
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wishr
Russian Federation262 Posts
On September 26 2013 14:07 xxjcdentonxx wrote: 4.35% faster. Am I missing something? Yep. Now burrowed speed is 1.41 with upgrade. After patch it will be 2.25. Too fast and furious. ZvZ will be so good. | ||
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Nachtwind
Germany1130 Posts
On September 26 2013 14:07 xxjcdentonxx wrote: Now: Burrowed Roach Speed Without Speed Upgrade: 1.4062 With Speed Upgrade: 2.1562 Proposed Changes: Burrowed Roach Speed Without Speed Upgrade: 1.4062 (?) With Speed Upgrade: 2.25 4.35% faster. Am I missing something? ̶g̶̶o̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶o̶̶m̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶p̶̶r̶̶o̶̶b̶̶l̶̶e̶̶m̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶i̶̶t̶̶h̶̶ ̶̶y̶̶o̶̶u̶̶r̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶o̶̶r̶̶d̶̶i̶̶n̶̶g̶̶.̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶e̶̶y̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶a̶̶n̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶o̶̶ ̶̶c̶̶h̶̶a̶̶n̶̶g̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶a̶̶s̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶u̶̶r̶̶r̶̶o̶̶w̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶p̶̶e̶̶e̶̶d̶̶.̶̶ ̶̶f̶̶r̶̶o̶̶m̶̶ ̶~̶1̶̶,̶̶4̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶o̶̶ ̶̶2̶̶,̶̶2̶̶5̶̶.̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶a̶̶t̶´̶s̶̶ ̶̶m̶̶o̶̶r̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶e̶̶n̶̶ ̶~̶4̶%̶ ̶̶f̶̶a̶̶s̶̶t̶̶e̶̶r̶̶.̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶j̶̶u̶̶s̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶m̶̶e̶̶a̶̶n̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶a̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶n̶̶e̶̶w̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶a̶̶s̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶u̶̶r̶̶r̶̶o̶̶w̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶p̶̶e̶̶e̶̶d̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶a̶̶m̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶n̶̶o̶̶r̶̶m̶̶a̶̶l̶̶ ̶̶m̶̶o̶̶v̶̶e̶̶m̶̶e̶̶n̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶p̶̶e̶̶e̶̶d̶̶ ̶̶o̶̶f̶̶f̶̶ ̶̶c̶̶r̶̶e̶̶e̶̶p̶̶ ̶̶o̶̶f̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶u̶̶n̶-̶u̶̶p̶̶g̶̶r̶̶a̶̶d̶̶e̶̶d̶̶ ̶̶n̶̶o̶̶r̶̶m̶̶a̶̶l̶̶ ̶̶r̶̶o̶̶a̶̶c̶̶h̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶f̶̶ ̶̶i̶´̶m̶̶ ̶̶c̶̶o̶̶r̶̶r̶̶e̶̶c̶̶t̶̶.̶ Roach normal off creep : 2.25 on creep: 2.925 burrowed : 1.4062 burrowed on creep : 1.828 Roach speed upgrade off creep : 3.0 on creep : 3.9 burrowed : doesn´t change burrowed on creep : doesn´t change Roach update: burrowed : 2.25 burrowed on creep : approx 2,68(7) ( base + 0,42 ) edit: ya burrow speed increase only with speed upgrade i get it :> | ||
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SsDrKosS
330 Posts
On September 26 2013 14:27 Nachtwind wrote: Got some problem with your wording. They want to change the base burrow speed. From ~1,4 to 2,25. That´s more then ~4% faster. It just mean that the new base burrow speed is the same as the normal movement speed off creep of a un-upgraded normal roach if i´m correct. stats from http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Speed Burrowed Roach speed:1.4062 Burrowed Roach speed (on Creep):1.828 After this patch Burrowed Roach speed (unupgraded): 1.4062 Burrowed Roach speed (upgrade): 2.25 Burrowed Roach speed (upgrade+creep): 2.65 approx. about 60+% faster!!! Edit:@ xxjcdentonxx. before this proposed patch, there was no speed upgrade for 'burrowed' roach. only for 'unburrowed' roach. | ||
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xxjcdentonxx
Canada163 Posts
On September 26 2013 14:27 Nachtwind wrote: Got some problem with your wording. They want to change the base burrow speed. From ~1,4 to 2,25. That´s more then ~4% faster. It just mean that the new base burrow speed is the same as the normal movement speed off creep of a un-upgraded normal roach if i´m correct. That's what I mean. DK wrote roach speed upgrade so he specifically was not referring to the base speed. Quote from OP: Roach speed upgrade also increases the burrowed roach movement speed from 1.41 to 2.25 Edit: Maybe my information is just wrong. TL's Roach Wiki does not list any speed for upgraded, burrowed roaches, and I referred to Starcraft.Wikia.com instead, which appeared to have more detailed information. before this proposed patch, there was no speed upgrade for 'burrowed' roach. only for 'unburrowed' roach. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On September 26 2013 14:40 xxjcdentonxx wrote: That's what I mean. DK wrote roach speed upgrade so he specifically was not referring to the base speed. Edit: Maybe my information is just wrong. TL's Roach Wiki does not list any speed for upgraded, burrowed roaches, and I referred to Starcraft.Wikia.comstarcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Roach instead, which appeareded to have more detailed information. There is nothing listed for speed upgraded burrowed roaches because they were the same with and without speed upgrade before the change. | ||
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Pontius Pirate
United States1557 Posts
On September 26 2013 13:33 larse wrote: That's surprising. Source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10093119229?page=1#4 Just quickly mathing out the 0 attack upgrades and 3 attack upgrades, BW tanks did 22.4 dps at 0 and 27.2 dps at +3. This compares somewhat similarly, but noticeably higher than SC2 tanks at 18.5 dps at 0 and 24 dps at +3. SC2 tanks would have to do at least 73 damage per shot at +3 in order to stack up with BW tanks if their cooldown was to stay at 2.7. 35 + 23 armored damage could do it pretty comfortably, and would have the bonus of having extremely similar dps to BW tanks at +0, at 21.5. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On September 26 2013 12:25 TheRabidDeer wrote: I dont just mean ZvP, but also ZvZ and ZvT. New oracle should be as effective if not more effective at harassing when compared to mutalisks and you should only need 3-5 of them instead of 15 or more. They won't be. Not even close. Oracles can't kill buildings well at all, are energy dependant unlike the muta, don't self heal as quickly, don't have a bounce attack, and aren't helpful in the straight up fights. Mutalisks when they get up to 12 or more just start kililng turrets or cannons super easily and then go in to the mineral line. If I have enough oracles to kill defensive buildings and go in, I won't have the energy to do jack shit after, and you just pull your damn workers away and laugh. Not to mention that all that gas for toss in oracles means I have far fewer combat units: toss doesn't do so hot with mass zealot like zerg does with mass zergling. Mutalisks are the most versatile and useful harass unit in the game apart from dropships. They're good in fights, can kill buildings, can kill workers, can kill small groups of defenders by themselves, their very fast, they fly, and they heal super fast. In what way can the oracle match up with that? It's fast.... and it can kill workers if they sit still? | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On September 26 2013 14:48 Pontius Pirate wrote: Just quickly mathing out the 0 attack upgrades and 3 attack upgrades, BW tanks did 22.4 dps at 0 and 27.2 dps at +3. This compares somewhat similarly, but noticeably higher than SC2 tanks at 18.5 dps at 0 and 24 dps at +3. SC2 tanks would have to do at least 73 damage per shot at +3 in order to stack up with BW tanks if their cooldown was to stay at 2.7. 35 + 23 armored damage could do it pretty comfortably, and would have the bonus of having extremely similar dps to BW tanks at +0, at 21.5. How are you getting different numbers than he got in that post? And how does 35 + 23 compare to 73 damage? Your post confuses me and I am not sure if it is just because it is late. | ||
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xxjcdentonxx
Canada163 Posts
On September 26 2013 14:46 TheRabidDeer wrote: There is nothing listed for speed upgraded burrowed roaches because they were the same with and without speed upgrade before the change. Okay so that other website has outdated information. Apparently, the roach speed upgrade did once affect burrowed roaches, sometime in the WoL beta. So they're kinda trying this for a second time. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On September 26 2013 14:56 Whitewing wrote: They won't be. Not even close. Oracles can't kill buildings well at all, are energy dependant unlike the muta, don't self heal as quickly, don't have a bounce attack, and aren't helpful in the straight up fights. Mutalisks when they get up to 12 or more just start kililng turrets or cannons super easily and then go in to the mineral line. If I have enough oracles to kill defensive buildings and go in, I won't have the energy to do jack shit after, and you just pull your damn workers away and laugh. Not to mention that all that gas for toss in oracles means I have far fewer combat units: toss doesn't do so hot with mass zealot like zerg does with mass zergling. Mutalisks are the most versatile and useful harass unit in the game apart from dropships. They're good in fights, can kill buildings, can kill workers, can kill small groups of defenders by themselves, their very fast, they fly, and they heal super fast. In what way can the oracle match up with that? It's fast.... and it can kill workers if they sit still? 12 mutas kill turrets at the same speed as 4 oracles (4 oracles can kill turrets in 4 seconds, just like 12 mutas). They self heal at the same rate for shields (so 60hp instead of 120). They dont have a bounce attack but are just as useful as mutas in straight up fights they just have different armies with them and usually not in as many numbers which makes them look weaker since they disappear more quickly. Oracles are going to be the same speed with more total hp and kill workers faster. Mutalisk: 9 damage 1.5246 cooldown DPS: 5.9 Range: 3 120 HP (regen at 1 point per game second) Speed: 4 Attacks to kill a turret with 1 muta: 43 (65.56 seconds) Attacks to kill a turret with 12 mutas: 3 (4.5738 seconds) Attacks to kill a turret with 24 mutas: 2 (3.0492 seconds) 28 mutalisks to kill a turret in 1 hit Oracle: 15 damage .86 cooldown DPS: 17.4 (bonus 10 dmg vs light armor yielding 29 dps vs light) Range: 4 100 hp 60 shields (regen at 2 points per game second after 10 seconds of no damage) Speed: 4 Attacks to kill a turret with 1 oracle: 17 (14.62 seconds) Attacks to kill a turret with 4 oracles: 5 (4.3 seconds) Attacks to kill a turret with 8 oracles: 3 (2.58 seconds) 17 oracles to kill a turret in 1 hit 9 oracles to kill a turret in 2 hits (8 leaves it with 10hp) | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On September 26 2013 14:48 Pontius Pirate wrote: Just quickly mathing out the 0 attack upgrades and 3 attack upgrades, BW tanks did 22.4 dps at 0 and 27.2 dps at +3. This compares somewhat similarly, but noticeably higher than SC2 tanks at 18.5 dps at 0 and 24 dps at +3. SC2 tanks would have to do at least 73 damage per shot at +3 in order to stack up with BW tanks if their cooldown was to stay at 2.7. 35 + 23 armored damage could do it pretty comfortably, and would have the bonus of having extremely similar dps to BW tanks at +0, at 21.5. I never played BW, but weren't for example speedlings there significantly slower than in SC2? If so then the attack speed calculation is erronous and should for comparison be alot higher in BW. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On September 26 2013 15:24 Sissors wrote: I never played BW, but weren't for example speedlings there significantly slower than in SC2? If so then the attack speed calculation is erronous and should for comparison be alot higher in BW. Siege tanks in BW overkilled, which honestly nullifies almost any argument about DPS of tanks in SC2 being weaker than BW. The units of other races is the main problem. | ||
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Fearlezz
Croatia176 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On September 26 2013 04:12 sigm wrote: Yeah, unfortunately it seems like someone from Blizz read the TL thread and saw all the whiners, and instead of changing the proposed buff like they did with the Oracle, they just scrapped it altogether. Shame about that. Because DTs don't need a buff. They are perfectly viable, often seen and powerful. | ||
nimdil
Poland3748 Posts
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saltis
159 Posts
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