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On September 26 2013 04:12 sigm wrote:Yeah, unfortunately it seems like someone from Blizz read the TL thread and saw all the whiners, and instead of changing the proposed buff like they did with the Oracle, they just scrapped it altogether. Shame about that.
if used whisely, the DTs are already a very very strong unit, so why further buff it to a point it almost makes it stupidly easy to use, do even more/faster damage (or make escape easier)and all that. Together with warp prism etc they are still very strong, I almost would say not used enough for harass.
Any buffs of these units (oracle, DT etc) would maybe make them finally as good as there is no other tactics needed anymore -> for 99% of the players (the non Pro or GM Players) buffing these units brings more cheese to the games you face on ladder and that would be disappointing - at least to me, cause I already hate it when coinflip-players win from time to time against me, with like 30 apm just because I didn't scout the somewhere hidden Shrine or whatever :D
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On September 26 2013 04:12 sigm wrote:Yeah, unfortunately it seems like someone from Blizz read the TL thread and saw all the whiners, and instead of changing the proposed buff like they did with the Oracle, they just scrapped it altogether. Shame about that.
Uh... wouldn't that mean that all the 'buff' changes would be under the 'Disapprove' category? as 2/3 of the people would vote against it?
Oh wait, no, that's not what happened. Way to be wrong.
Shame on Blizzard for listening to the community and trying to create a better game.
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I love the fact that blizzards balance team reacted immediatly to the community and adjusted the changes. Thank you very much!! Good job!!
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On September 26 2013 19:09 liberate71 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 04:12 sigm wrote:On September 26 2013 04:07 ZAiNs wrote:
DTs :/ Yeah, unfortunately it seems like someone from Blizz read the TL thread and saw all the whiners, and instead of changing the proposed buff like they did with the Oracle, they just scrapped it altogether. Shame about that. Uh... wouldn't that mean that all the 'buff' changes would be under the 'Disapprove' category? as 2/3 of the people would vote against it? Oh wait, no, that's not what happened. Way to be wrong. Shame on Blizzard for listening to the community and trying to create a better game.
Those are often two different things. Why are you generalizing so much? We don't live in the world where you can either scrap anything the community down votes or they don't listen at all. The point wasn't that every time people cry the immediatly jump ship, but rather that there are times where they get super bad feedback and immediatly abondon an idea rather than trying to tweak it. Best exmplae for this is the warhound: They spent 2+ fucking years working on that thing, then everyone qqd for one week when only pros had beta and they just removed the entire unit.
Obv there are cases, like this time around the oracle (though they have been talking about an oracle change for months now) they do adjust when bad feedback comes in, people are just complaing that it isn't happening often enough.
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As terran player following balance should be done.
Protoss
1. Remove HT
2. Remove core
Zerg
1. Remove creep
2. reduce Banglings radius 50%
Terran.
1. BC are interstellar spaceships. They should move instant to any part of the map with a 20 second cool down for realism purposes
2. Tank should hit air as well as ground
3. Nuke can be send straight from tech building no more laser pointing by ghost. Terran advanced since dessert storm!
But seriously.
The changes much much better then first proposed. Would be nice to somehow make mech also possible vs toss. Think since hots zerg have vipers mech much easyer to stop. But have to wait and see what will happen.
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I do not undestand why area effect of widow mine have to be cut in half, but siege tank buf is only 10% dps.
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this looks better however my concern is still the widow mine nerf that. zvt feels pretty balanced in my eyes, we see more and more top level zergs doing well against it. the initial hard days were expected not being used to having to use that type of micro but now when zergs are used to it we deal with it fine and both players can be punished for being distracted/not controlling equally with banes and widow mine evenening each other out.
Tanks are pretty weak right now in zvt primarily bc of mutas being able to snipe them of and while widow mines could help with this and the tank buff may be in the right direction i feel it doesn't compensate for the widow mine nerf at all. And I rather see both styles being viable (marine mine & marine mine tank) than one or as I suspect this change will do.. noone.
As for the other changes i approve of anything. 4 speed oracle may be to much but it should enable it to survive longer and maybe that way we see it live on until lategame.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On September 26 2013 20:05 Mutineer wrote:
I do not undestand why area effect of widow mine have to be cut in half, but siege tank buf is only 10% dps.
Because Widow Mine shoots every 40 seconds, when Siege Tank can shoot every 2.7 seconds
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I do not undestand why area effect of widow mine have to be cut in half, but siege tank buf is only 10% dps.
Because the current state of the Siege Tank is not only 45% as useful as the Widow Mine. Even though Widow Mines sees a lot more play could mean that they're just a measly 10% better than the unit it overrides.
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On September 26 2013 20:17 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +I do not undestand why area effect of widow mine have to be cut in half, but siege tank buf is only 10% dps. Because the current state of the Siege Tank is not only 45% as useful as the Widow Mine. Even though Widow Mines sees a lot more play could mean that they're just a measly 10% better than the unit it overrides.
They aren't.
There's a whole slew of reasons why the Tank is being completely overridden by the Widow Mine in TvZ. The radius nerf only changes one of them.
The Widow Mine is still much easier to produce, faster to deploy and relocate, much cheaper, attacks air, and benefits from burrow which requires detection to defeat.
The changes won't change a thing in TvZ in terms of seeing more tank usage or less Widow Mine usage for Bio play. If anything all these changes do is improve Mech enough that we'll start seeing it more in the match up, but as far as Bio play is concerned the Widow Mine is just superior to the Siege Tank in every possible way in the standard meta right now.
Perhaps if Roach/Hydralisk becomes more common we'll see Tanks return to Bio play but as long as Zergling/Baneling/Mutalisk is the standard, tanks have no place.
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On September 26 2013 20:05 Mutineer wrote:
I do not undestand why area effect of widow mine have to be cut in half, but siege tank buf is only 10% dps.
same.
Windows mines splash surface is nerfed BY HALF, and they compensate it by one more tank shoot every 10 times. I wonder if new Siege tank will actually fire one more time than the old in a TvZ engagement, probably not in most case. Maybe the last shot will not splash your marines as before, that's all.
So it's a very hard nerf of TvZ, while the MU is actually pretty fun and balanced. One the other hand there are one boring and imbalanced MU in PvT, where Protoss wins 95% of late-game situations ( however Toss have 150 1or2 base powerfuls all-ins if they want to win earlier), and... they just buff toss all-ins. Yeah, right.
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Thank god no DT speed.
As far as tanks go I would much rather see higher burst than higher rate of fire (for same DPS increas).
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I think the movement speed increase for the oracle is fine but I think giving it more acceleration will just make it too easy to control. It will make it easier for the oracle to escape for players that don't pay attention just sending it to the mineral line and move it when it start to take damage. It also make it more crucial to keep the oracle constantly moving or else it will lose speed.
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isnt 10% dps increase too small ? i mean tanks last only a few in a engagement .. i dont think this will make a difference
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On September 26 2013 20:50 goody153 wrote:
isnt 10% dps increase too small ? i mean tanks last only a few in a engagement .. i dont think this will make a difference
it is 10% more attack speed, which means they might get off one shot more. Which is a 50% damage increase (atleast most of the times tanks only do 2 shots when in the open). Might not affect TvP or TvZ to much, but it will break Bio play in TvT since there tanks fire alot before dieing. And how often do wee see Marines just barely breaking through.
But thats the problem they face with mech anyway, Bio is sooooo bad against Mech that they would turn TvT into Mech only if they buff the AoE part.
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On September 26 2013 20:05 Mutineer wrote:
I do not undestand why area effect of widow mine have to be cut in half, but siege tank buf is only 10% dps.
Well widow mine are getting nerfed because they're an extremely obnoxious crutch Terrans have been using to make TvZ extremely punishing and difficult for the zerg and extremely easy and forgiving for the Terran.
Tanks are getting buffed because blizz would really like us to make them vs Protoss. And zerg.
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At least the radius nerf will make less friendly fire!
I saw heromarine marine-helbat-thor vs muta-ling-bling yesterday, maybe anticipating the patch? He won quite convincingly against a GM zerg on bel-shir. Looked fun, no units to siege or burrow, just position the thors and helbats tank the blings.
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On September 26 2013 20:50 goody153 wrote:
isnt 10% dps increase too small ? i mean tanks last only a few in a engagement .. i dont think this will make a difference
Especially when tanks suck in the first place because they often get surrounded and killed in TvZ before they can shoot a second time, and I don't think such a buff will make a big difference. It will also buff the friendly fire they do by the same amount.
It will make mech stronger in TvT, cause the engagements last longer, and I'm not sure I want that.
But heh, whatever they say. Can't wait for light speed oracles and DTs, may be time to switch to toss for the lulz.
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On September 26 2013 20:28 xongnox wrote:
Windows mines splash surface is nerfed BY HALF, and they compensate it by one more tank shoot every 10 times. I wonder if new Siege tank will actually fire one more time than the old in a TvZ engagement, probably not in most case. Maybe the last shot will not splash your marines as before, that's all.
So it's a very hard nerf of TvZ, while the MU is actually pretty fun and balanced. One the other hand there are one boring and imbalanced MU in PvT, where Protoss wins 95% of late-game situations ( however Toss have 150 1or2 base powerfuls all-ins if they want to win earlier), and... they just buff toss all-ins. Yeah, right.
Yes.. despite the tank buff they will remain useless vs. muta ling bane.. mines will remain better than tanks despite the nerf, since they can actually hit mutas.
PvT is broken right now and I think ghosts/vikings should be buffed considering how painful it is to get enough of them. As BS as storm/colo is vs. T their effectiveness I think is needed in PvZ when dealing w/ swarm hosts..
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On September 26 2013 21:02 Slydie wrote:
At least the radius nerf will make less friendly fire!
I saw heromarine marine-helbat-thor vs muta-ling-bling yesterday, maybe anticipating the patch? He won quite convincingly against a GM zerg on bel-shir. Looked fun, no units to siege or burrow, just position the thors and helbats tank the blings.
Doesn't seem to like Mines in general, atleast I often see him using Tanks etc. But maybe he is just having fun while streaming.
Hmm if they test this stuff off season, they could organize a small test map tournament. Might be funny as hell and maybe a few pros would try to break the test map with some op strat for the easy money.
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EPT
