On September 26 2013 23:04 DomeGetta wrote: Just want to reiterate the key points of my post before someone tried to troll it. I would really like an answer from someone or blizzard about the true motivation for the patch. Even if they want to take the stance of "we fix the stale meta game!" Which I disagree with being a good reason for a patch..someone still has to show why it makes sense to nerf 1 race and buff the other 2 if the game is statistically balanced. A balanced stale meta game is still better than an imbalanced one. Why isit that you think all pro terrans use bio mine? Consider the alternative to bio/mine in TVZ. Is turtle mech less stale? I don't see how it is..and it also favors the zerg drastically. Which is why no one uses it..faster tank reload isnt going to change that. So now u have a diluted bio/mine style that was balanced prior to the nerf (unless someone would pls link me to stats that show otherwise and I'll shut up)..how would u not expect this to become imbalanced?
which is why they aren't rolling the changes as a complete patch, they are rolling it out on a balance test map. the patch is not to nerf terran, it is to nerf one style and buff the other to make both mech and bio mech viable. if mech is favoring zerg, then there will be nerf and buff accordingly. Why it is good? because zerg has at least 3 different styles to deal with mech rather than almost 90% of games ling baneling muta vs bio mine. the patch is also to buff protoss so that they would seek out other ways to play other than still turtling too hard style. except I do think blizzard should also nerf protoss defensive style as well.
blizzard also isn't liking the trend of having only one style viable. Look beyond stats and balance. Or if you like the word balance so much, there is a complete imbalanceness in the mech vs bio mine in the risk and reward comparison.
No one has to convince anyone if the patch should be done because blizzard has the final call here.
. Sorry but what you said here is exactly what I'm talking about and what doesn't make sense. The widow mine nerf crushes that style..the tank buff doesnt do nearly enough to make much more viable.. test all you want its brutally obvious to anyone who understands the matchup.
it's a damn test map. how many times do I need to screw that into your head? blizzard will nerf bio mine style because they want mine to not function as a better replacement for tanks. It will be their direction to have bio tank and mine as a supportive unit instead of the key unit and there will be patches to help or nerf it accordingly. hell I will pull a naruto here, innovation and flash both have used bio tank style and won games with it, bio tank will work...right? It should be brutally obvious to anyone that it can work too and mech was used more often than bio mine during the hots beta and was fairly good (see thorzain stream), back when the vehicle upgrades combined like what they intend to do later.
I'm not gonna teach you about Tvz but marine tank can be used yes against roach hydra not against standard ling bling muta. Show me one game where it was done pls thx. Until then you have no argument to say its viable..unless you are better than the pros who refuse to use it? Simple facts: nerf makes bio/mine underpowered...buff doesn't make mech or marine tank viable .. you heard it here first! The painfully obvious statement that will bring wol back. But hey maybe the viewers who probably won't even notice the patch will be happy.
Bomber vs Jaedong WCS season 2 championship on newkirk I think.
I will check this out for sure. Thx - edit sorry a couple tanks for defense doing equate to marine tank..he used bio mine.
On September 26 2013 23:04 DomeGetta wrote: Just want to reiterate the key points of my post before someone tried to troll it. I would really like an answer from someone or blizzard about the true motivation for the patch. Even if they want to take the stance of "we fix the stale meta game!" Which I disagree with being a good reason for a patch..someone still has to show why it makes sense to nerf 1 race and buff the other 2 if the game is statistically balanced. A balanced stale meta game is still better than an imbalanced one. Why isit that you think all pro terrans use bio mine? Consider the alternative to bio/mine in TVZ. Is turtle mech less stale? I don't see how it is..and it also favors the zerg drastically. Which is why no one uses it..faster tank reload isnt going to change that. So now u have a diluted bio/mine style that was balanced prior to the nerf (unless someone would pls link me to stats that show otherwise and I'll shut up)..how would u not expect this to become imbalanced?
which is why they aren't rolling the changes as a complete patch, they are rolling it out on a balance test map. the patch is not to nerf terran, it is to nerf one style and buff the other to make both mech and bio mech viable. if mech is favoring zerg, then there will be nerf and buff accordingly. Why it is good? because zerg has at least 3 different styles to deal with mech rather than almost 90% of games ling baneling muta vs bio mine. the patch is also to buff protoss so that they would seek out other ways to play other than still turtling too hard style. except I do think blizzard should also nerf protoss defensive style as well.
blizzard also isn't liking the trend of having only one style viable. Look beyond stats and balance. Or if you like the word balance so much, there is a complete imbalanceness in the mech vs bio mine in the risk and reward comparison.
No one has to convince anyone if the patch should be done because blizzard has the final call here.
. Sorry but what you said here is exactly what I'm talking about and what doesn't make sense. The widow mine nerf crushes that style..the tank buff doesnt do nearly enough to make much more viable.. test all you want its brutally obvious to anyone who understands the matchup.
it's a damn test map. how many times do I need to screw that into your head? blizzard will nerf bio mine style because they want mine to not function as a better replacement for tanks. It will be their direction to have bio tank and mine as a supportive unit instead of the key unit and there will be patches to help or nerf it accordingly. hell I will pull a naruto here, innovation and flash both have used bio tank style and won games with it, bio tank will work...right? It should be brutally obvious to anyone that it can work too and mech was used more often than bio mine during the hots beta and was fairly good (see thorzain stream), back when the vehicle upgrades combined like what they intend to do later.
I'm not gonna teach you about Tvz but marine tank can be used yes against roach hydra not against standard ling bling muta. Show me one game where it was done pls thx. Until then you have no argument to say its viable..unless you are better than the pros who refuse to use it? Simple facts: nerf makes bio/mine underpowered...buff doesn't make mech or marine tank viable .. you heard it here first! The painfully obvious statement that will bring wol back. But hey maybe the viewers who probably won't even notice the patch will be happy.
bomber vs JD innovation vs Symbol in gsl final. done, next time you can do search them yourself, don't be lazy.
pro isn't using it is because bio mine is a much better choice in almost 90% of the games in all maps which leads to me repeating this point again and again: it is called a direction. bio tank as main units mine and medivac as support for bio tank. bio mine > mech and bio tank in all maps and 99% of the games unless zerg is going roach heavy style just makes for a poor game, especially for a strategy game. this imbalance in risk and reward lead to only one single optimal strategy, you probably haven't studied game theory but this is pretty simple so I hope you get it.
and no thanks, you don't need to teach me anything about TvZ because you obviously are complaining at numbers rather than blizzard vision of TvZ and just don't understand how patches are done
the DMG output isn't why its not used in tvz. Its the speed of long/bling/muta relative to the time it takes to siege and unsiege. You can't move across the map without them bating 10 stims out of u . And forget about once ultras come out..u can turtle sure..but the z will take the whole map and starve u.
We'll see..I tend to think that the issue with Tanks has been that they're ideally supposed to prevent a tradeoff between a unit that is extremely strong in head-on engagements when properly positioned, but slow and easy to outmanuever/catch out of position....but in practice they're not much stronger in head-on engagements then other Terran tech, so the tradeoffs are never worth it. Since I like a dynamic where Tanks kick ass head on but can bebeaten if they're outmanuevered and caught out of position, rather than trying to mitigate their weaknesses, I'd prefer to see their strengths improved so that they're actually good enough in head on engagements to be worth the loss in mobility.
If that doesn't work, I suppose they can look at reducing siege/unsiege time, or even buffing Tank speed when unsieged so they can get into position faster. But I think they should start by taking a look at their damage and actually making them better at their intended role.
On September 26 2013 23:34 Osiccor wrote: Since Oracle's harass gets completely nullified by static defence, how about giving Oracle a kill that disables static defences forcing your opponent to keep some units at home.
On September 26 2013 23:04 DomeGetta wrote: Just want to reiterate the key points of my post before someone tried to troll it. I would really like an answer from someone or blizzard about the true motivation for the patch. Even if they want to take the stance of "we fix the stale meta game!" Which I disagree with being a good reason for a patch..someone still has to show why it makes sense to nerf 1 race and buff the other 2 if the game is statistically balanced. A balanced stale meta game is still better than an imbalanced one. Why isit that you think all pro terrans use bio mine? Consider the alternative to bio/mine in TVZ. Is turtle mech less stale? I don't see how it is..and it also favors the zerg drastically. Which is why no one uses it..faster tank reload isnt going to change that. So now u have a diluted bio/mine style that was balanced prior to the nerf (unless someone would pls link me to stats that show otherwise and I'll shut up)..how would u not expect this to become imbalanced?
which is why they aren't rolling the changes as a complete patch, they are rolling it out on a balance test map. the patch is not to nerf terran, it is to nerf one style and buff the other to make both mech and bio mech viable. if mech is favoring zerg, then there will be nerf and buff accordingly. Why it is good? because zerg has at least 3 different styles to deal with mech rather than almost 90% of games ling baneling muta vs bio mine. the patch is also to buff protoss so that they would seek out other ways to play other than still turtling too hard style. except I do think blizzard should also nerf protoss defensive style as well.
blizzard also isn't liking the trend of having only one style viable. Look beyond stats and balance. Or if you like the word balance so much, there is a complete imbalanceness in the mech vs bio mine in the risk and reward comparison.
No one has to convince anyone if the patch should be done because blizzard has the final call here.
. Sorry but what you said here is exactly what I'm talking about and what doesn't make sense. The widow mine nerf crushes that style..the tank buff doesnt do nearly enough to make much more viable.. test all you want its brutally obvious to anyone who understands the matchup.
it's a damn test map. how many times do I need to screw that into your head? blizzard will nerf bio mine style because they want mine to not function as a better replacement for tanks. It will be their direction to have bio tank and mine as a supportive unit instead of the key unit and there will be patches to help or nerf it accordingly. hell I will pull a naruto here, innovation and flash both have used bio tank style and won games with it, bio tank will work...right? It should be brutally obvious to anyone that it can work too and mech was used more often than bio mine during the hots beta and was fairly good (see thorzain stream), back when the vehicle upgrades combined like what they intend to do later.
I'm not gonna teach you about Tvz but marine tank can be used yes against roach hydra not against standard ling bling muta. Show me one game where it was done pls thx. Until then you have no argument to say its viable..unless you are better than the pros who refuse to use it? Simple facts: nerf makes bio/mine underpowered...buff doesn't make mech or marine tank viable .. you heard it here first! The painfully obvious statement that will bring wol back. But hey maybe the viewers who probably won't even notice the patch will be happy.
bomber vs JD innovation vs Symbol in gsl final. done, next time you can do search them yourself, don't be lazy.
pro isn't using it is because bio mine is a much better choice in almost 90% of the games in all maps which leads to me repeating this point again and again: it is called a direction. bio tank as main units mine and medivac as support for bio tank. bio mine > mech and bio tank in all maps and 99% of the games unless zerg is going roach heavy style just makes for a poor game, especially for a strategy game. this imbalance in risk and reward lead to only one single optimal strategy, you probably haven't studied game theory but this is pretty simple so I hope you get it.
and no thanks, you don't need to teach me anything about TvZ because you obviously are complaining at numbers rather than blizzard vision of TvZ and just don't understand how patches are done
lolol considering I just checked the JD vs bomber game and he made a million mines id say that classifys as bio mine lllolol..and thanks for the advice about game theory coming from the dude who thinks marine tank is viable tvz.. I won't be trolled rofl And PS before u go trolling the internet to find a game where it actually did happen..consider the strength of ur argument if 1 out of the 10000 pro tvzs played this year showed marine tank..solid viability
It'll be interesting to see how fully Oracles get nullified by static defense once their speed/acceleration is improved. Obviously lots of static D will just take them down so quickly they can't do anything. But I'm not so sure that a single spore or cannon in the mineral line will be sufficient to entirely shutdown Oracle harass, now that Oracles can fly in and out pretty damn fast.
I would point out that you could be wrong. After all, even the highest level pros have said that nerfs would be huge and buffs would do nothing. The majority of the time they are wrong and they play the game professionally. Unless you are some sort of SC2 prophet, you opinion is your own and you can't just throw it around like it is established fact.
In general, "Pro X said Y, so it must be true!" is a dumb thing to say, if for no other reason then that even most Pros disagree with each other about various facets of the game and what they'd like to see changed. Thats not to say Pro feedback is useless or anything, but its silly to just take it at face value and think "this guy is good at this game, therefore all of his opinions on it are objectively correct", because there are almost certainly people who are equally good who disagree with that guy.
Yeah, it doesn't really apply to many other things in life:
- The guy in a litigation attorney lawyer, so he must be qualified to make the rules of civil procedure
- The guy is a good football player, so he must be able to write the rules for football and design a football stadium.
- The guy is a good doctor, so he must be good at designing medical equipment.
Input is great, but skill does not directly contribute to the ability to improve the game.
I'm kind-of weirded out by how quickly mine radius got increased again.
Pretty sure mines could have 0 splash and still get used (still good against protoss rushes: one-shots oracles, stalkers, zealots, and really anything else toss could want to allin with. Still can delay a zerg expansion by like...two minutes).
The DT buff was kind-of interesting, in that I could potentially imagine there being a speed toss army (DT, blink Stalker, Phoenix) that exploits less mobile armies and pokes all over the map, and wile toss has had one or two fast units, they just haven't had enough fast units to push them over the edge into making something like that viable (whereas zerg can go fast with muta/ling, medium speed with roach hydra, slow with brood lord infestor swarm host queen). DTs are probably the wrong unit to buff, though, unless they're nerfed in other ways. Not sure what the right unit to buff is, though. (Although for some reason sentires with 3.375 movement speed is sounding hilarious to me right now. Zip in with pure sentry, forcefield some workers, tickle tickle tickle, run away).
The DT buff was kind-of interesting, in that I could potentially imagine there being a speed toss army (DT, blink Stalker, Phoenix) that exploits less mobile armies and pokes all over the map, and wile toss has had one or two fast units, they just haven't had enough fast units to push them over the edge into making something like that viable (whereas zerg can go fast with muta/ling, medium speed with roach hydra, slow with brood lord infestor swarm host queen). DTs are probably the wrong unit to buff, though, unless they're nerfed in other ways. Not sure what the right unit to buff is, though. (Although for some reason sentires with 3.375 movement speed is sounding hilarious to me right now. Zip in with pure sentry, forcefield some workers, tickle tickle tickle, run away).
There's a 4 Oracle PvT style that is really cool, fun to play, and viable up through masters. But no one's been able to make that style work on a pro level. It'd be really cool if this made that style on the Pro level, because its just a completely different way to play PvT than exists currently.
the DMG output isn't why its not used in tvz. Its the speed of long/bling/muta relative to the time it takes to siege and unsiege. You can't move across the map without them bating 10 stims out of u . And forget about once ultras come out..u can turtle sure..but the z will take the whole map and starve u.
We'll see..I tend to think that the issue with Tanks has been that they're ideally supposed to prevent a tradeoff between a unit that is extremely strong in head-on engagements when properly positioned, but slow and easy to outmanuever/catch out of position....but in practice they're not much stronger in head-on engagements then other Terran tech, so the tradeoffs are never worth it. Since I like a dynamic where Tanks kick ass head on but can bebeaten if they're outmanuevered and caught out of position, rather than trying to mitigate their weaknesses, I'd prefer to see their strengths improved so that they're actually good enough in head on engagements to be worth the loss in mobility.
If that doesn't work, I suppose they can look at reducing siege/unsiege time, or even buffing Tank speed when unsieged so they can get into position faster. But I think they should start by taking a look at their damage and actually making them better at their intended role.
Imo buffing tank damage would make turtling to good on the current maps. With more open maps it could work but then Protoss would struggle with their thirds.
On September 26 2013 23:04 DomeGetta wrote: Just want to reiterate the key points of my post before someone tried to troll it. I would really like an answer from someone or blizzard about the true motivation for the patch. Even if they want to take the stance of "we fix the stale meta game!" Which I disagree with being a good reason for a patch..someone still has to show why it makes sense to nerf 1 race and buff the other 2 if the game is statistically balanced. A balanced stale meta game is still better than an imbalanced one. Why isit that you think all pro terrans use bio mine? Consider the alternative to bio/mine in TVZ. Is turtle mech less stale? I don't see how it is..and it also favors the zerg drastically. Which is why no one uses it..faster tank reload isnt going to change that. So now u have a diluted bio/mine style that was balanced prior to the nerf (unless someone would pls link me to stats that show otherwise and I'll shut up)..how would u not expect this to become imbalanced?
which is why they aren't rolling the changes as a complete patch, they are rolling it out on a balance test map. the patch is not to nerf terran, it is to nerf one style and buff the other to make both mech and bio mech viable. if mech is favoring zerg, then there will be nerf and buff accordingly. Why it is good? because zerg has at least 3 different styles to deal with mech rather than almost 90% of games ling baneling muta vs bio mine. the patch is also to buff protoss so that they would seek out other ways to play other than still turtling too hard style. except I do think blizzard should also nerf protoss defensive style as well.
blizzard also isn't liking the trend of having only one style viable. Look beyond stats and balance. Or if you like the word balance so much, there is a complete imbalanceness in the mech vs bio mine in the risk and reward comparison.
No one has to convince anyone if the patch should be done because blizzard has the final call here.
. Sorry but what you said here is exactly what I'm talking about and what doesn't make sense. The widow mine nerf crushes that style..the tank buff doesnt do nearly enough to make much more viable.. test all you want its brutally obvious to anyone who understands the matchup.
The nerf probably don't crush 4m style just don't make it so strong that you can rally cross map on whirlwind and expect to eventually break the zerg. That is even more absurd the suggested nerf imo.
On September 26 2013 23:34 Osiccor wrote: Since Oracle's harass gets completely nullified by static defence, how about giving Oracle a kill that disables static defences forcing your opponent to keep some units at home.
Good luck ever holding a proxy oracle into oracle/gateway all-in as terran... Ouch.
On September 26 2013 23:34 Osiccor wrote: Since Oracle's harass gets completely nullified by static defence, how about giving Oracle a kill that disables static defences forcing your opponent to keep some units at home.
While we are at it.. why don't we change the collosi to a unit that does splash damage still... but has to shoot a explosive projectile that benefits from proper target firing, maybe it does a lot of damage but is slow as shit to compensate and has to be babied and micro'd like crazy with a shutt- warp prism!?
As a Protoss player I'm all for these changes! Lets go Blizzard :D
On September 27 2013 00:00 ETisME wrote: bomber vs JD innovation vs Symbol in gsl final. done, next time you can do search them yourself, don't be lazy.
pro isn't using it is because bio mine is a much better choice in almost 90% of the games in all maps which leads to me repeating this point again and again: it is called a direction. bio tank as main units mine and medivac as support for bio tank. bio mine > mech and bio tank in all maps and 99% of the games unless zerg is going roach heavy style just makes for a poor game, especially for a strategy game. this imbalance in risk and reward lead to only one single optimal strategy, you probably haven't studied game theory but this is pretty simple so I hope you get it.
and no thanks, you don't need to teach me anything about TvZ because you obviously are complaining at numbers rather than blizzard vision of TvZ and just don't understand how patches are done
lolol considering I just checked the JD vs bomber game and he made a million mines id say that classifys as bio mine lllolol..and thanks for the advice about game theory coming from the dude who thinks marine tank is viable tvz.. I won't be trolled rofl And PS before u go trolling the internet to find a game where it actually did happen..consider the strength of ur argument if 1 out of the 10000 pro tvzs played this year showed marine tank..solid viability
? JD vs Bomber, tanks and not widow mines, global final:
I don't remember Symbol vs innovation being a GSL final (did he mean Soulkey vs innovation?)
While we are at it.. why don't we change the collosi to a unit that does splash damage still... but has to shoot a explosive projectile that benefits from proper target firing, maybe it does a lot of damage but is slow as shit to compensate and has to be babied and micro'd like crazy with a shutt- warp prism!?
As a Protoss player I'm all for these changes! Lets go Blizzard :D
Yes, lets replace the Colossus with a cheaper, more accessible unit that also comes from a Robo facility, but hardcounters bio way harder than Colossi do, especially when considering how units clump with SC2 pathing. This unit should definitely not be targetable by Vikings. That way, from one building, Protoss can build one unit that absolutely hardcounters bio play, and another unit that is the hardest counter to mech in the game. I mean, Protoss will definitely be content to just use Reavers with cutesy drop micro, rather than just turtling up and building a Reaver+Immortal+Gateway ball that hardcounters literally every Terran ground army...right? Right?? Yep, no way this would have shitloads of nasty cascading effects that would fuck up the entire game.
On September 26 2013 23:04 DomeGetta wrote: Just want to reiterate the key points of my post before someone tried to troll it. I would really like an answer from someone or blizzard about the true motivation for the patch. Even if they want to take the stance of "we fix the stale meta game!" Which I disagree with being a good reason for a patch..someone still has to show why it makes sense to nerf 1 race and buff the other 2 if the game is statistically balanced. A balanced stale meta game is still better than an imbalanced one. Why isit that you think all pro terrans use bio mine? Consider the alternative to bio/mine in TVZ. Is turtle mech less stale? I don't see how it is..and it also favors the zerg drastically. Which is why no one uses it..faster tank reload isnt going to change that. So now u have a diluted bio/mine style that was balanced prior to the nerf (unless someone would pls link me to stats that show otherwise and I'll shut up)..how would u not expect this to become imbalanced?
which is why they aren't rolling the changes as a complete patch, they are rolling it out on a balance test map. the patch is not to nerf terran, it is to nerf one style and buff the other to make both mech and bio mech viable. if mech is favoring zerg, then there will be nerf and buff accordingly. Why it is good? because zerg has at least 3 different styles to deal with mech rather than almost 90% of games ling baneling muta vs bio mine. the patch is also to buff protoss so that they would seek out other ways to play other than still turtling too hard style. except I do think blizzard should also nerf protoss defensive style as well.
blizzard also isn't liking the trend of having only one style viable. Look beyond stats and balance. Or if you like the word balance so much, there is a complete imbalanceness in the mech vs bio mine in the risk and reward comparison.
No one has to convince anyone if the patch should be done because blizzard has the final call here.
. Sorry but what you said here is exactly what I'm talking about and what doesn't make sense. The widow mine nerf crushes that style..the tank buff doesnt do nearly enough to make much more viable.. test all you want its brutally obvious to anyone who understands the matchup.
it's a damn test map. how many times do I need to screw that into your head? blizzard will nerf bio mine style because they want mine to not function as a better replacement for tanks. It will be their direction to have bio tank and mine as a supportive unit instead of the key unit and there will be patches to help or nerf it accordingly. hell I will pull a naruto here, innovation and flash both have used bio tank style and won games with it, bio tank will work...right? It should be brutally obvious to anyone that it can work too and mech was used more often than bio mine during the hots beta and was fairly good (see thorzain stream), back when the vehicle upgrades combined like what they intend to do later.
I'm not gonna teach you about Tvz but marine tank can be used yes against roach hydra not against standard ling bling muta. Show me one game where it was done pls thx. Until then you have no argument to say its viable..unless you are better than the pros who refuse to use it? Simple facts: nerf makes bio/mine underpowered...buff doesn't make mech or marine tank viable .. you heard it here first! The painfully obvious statement that will bring wol back. But hey maybe the viewers who probably won't even notice the patch will be happy.
bomber vs JD innovation vs Symbol in gsl final. done, next time you can do search them yourself, don't be lazy.
pro isn't using it is because bio mine is a much better choice in almost 90% of the games in all maps which leads to me repeating this point again and again: it is called a direction. bio tank as main units mine and medivac as support for bio tank. bio mine > mech and bio tank in all maps and 99% of the games unless zerg is going roach heavy style just makes for a poor game, especially for a strategy game. this imbalance in risk and reward lead to only one single optimal strategy, you probably haven't studied game theory but this is pretty simple so I hope you get it.
and no thanks, you don't need to teach me anything about TvZ because you obviously are complaining at numbers rather than blizzard vision of TvZ and just don't understand how patches are done
lolol considering I just checked the JD vs bomber game and he made a million mines id say that classifys as bio mine lllolol..and thanks for the advice about game theory coming from the dude who thinks marine tank is viable tvz.. I won't be trolled rofl And PS before u go trolling the internet to find a game where it actually did happen..consider the strength of ur argument if 1 out of the 10000 pro tvzs played this year showed marine tank..solid viability
marine tank is viable if the tank user is good, it is just that biomine is far superior to the point the matchup becomes a joke and every decently skilled terran gets a free win, so it would be unwise not to go biomine.
While we are at it.. why don't we change the collosi to a unit that does splash damage still... but has to shoot a explosive projectile that benefits from proper target firing, maybe it does a lot of damage but is slow as shit to compensate and has to be babied and micro'd like crazy with a shutt- warp prism!?
As a Protoss player I'm all for these changes! Lets go Blizzard :D
Yes, lets replace the Colossus with a cheaper, more accessible unit that also comes from a Robo facility, but hardcounters bio way harder than Colossi do, especially when considering how units clump with SC2 pathing. This unit should definitely not be targetable by Vikings. That way, from one building, Protoss can build one unit that absolutely hardcounters bio play, and another unit that is the hardest counter to mech in the game. I mean, Protoss will definitely be content to just use Reavers with cutesy drop micro, rather than just turtling up and building a Reaver+Immortal+Gateway ball that hardcounters literally every Terran ground army...right? Right?? Yep, no way this would have shitloads of nasty cascading effects that would fuck up the entire game.
I'm all for the reaver coming back and the immortal dissapearing. Let's do that instead, it'd probably make the game more interesting for me as someone who hates bio :p
Tempest needs a nerf or mech can never become viable.
If Protoss starts to mass Tempest Terran need to throw away all tanks and hellbats and start to mass vikings and ravens or die. If you have 10+ Tanks and 15+Hellbats you can never match the Tempest since they are so extremly supply effeceint.
Please increse Tempest food cost to 6 or lower Tempest hitpoints.
Im afraid, that while the mine change is good for general play, its still hurts ALOT for TvP meching, because mines are pretty much your only fear to enemy stargate play early on. If you invest too much on marines, our mech army is hurting. As the oracles seem to have their speed boosts youll be forced to turret yourself in pretty hard.
But that ain't pretty much big deal, because we wont see mech in TvP anyways.
EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/4/4f/Corsair.png)
