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On September 27 2013 14:21 iaguz wrote:
If Tvz has 3 viable options, bio mine, marine tank and mech then that would be a healthy matchup. Each composition would require Zerg to play differently (probably? can see more infestor usage vs marine tank but roach hydra is never gonna happen)
As it is this is not the case it's almost all bio mine nowadays. Bomber plays a unique style of TvZ, consider him the exception and not the rule of TvZ
While I believe viable options will always make for diverse styles, as we saw in the past players sticking to a likely inferior style yet prefering it, I believe as long as one style is as superior as biomine to the other styles, we will simply not see those styles.
Hope they can fix it, as I actually enjoy Starcraft, but sometimes its hard to like.
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Oracles is the new APM toy for the Protoss.
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On September 26 2013 04:12 sigm wrote:Yeah, unfortunately it seems like someone from Blizz read the TL thread and saw all the whiners, and instead of changing the proposed buff like they did with the Oracle, they just scrapped it altogether. Shame about that.
while they are at it they should increase marine range with to 9 and give them 13 attack=?
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On September 27 2013 16:03 ImperialFist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 04:12 sigm wrote:On September 26 2013 04:07 ZAiNs wrote:
DTs :/ Yeah, unfortunately it seems like someone from Blizz read the TL thread and saw all the whiners, and instead of changing the proposed buff like they did with the Oracle, they just scrapped it altogether. Shame about that. while they are at it they should increase marine range with to 9 and give them 13 attack=?
I think IF blizzard listened to qqs about marines they rather decrease marine health to 40 and give range +1 upgrade instead of combat shield like bw marines are.
Edit: and medic of course
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Russian Federation262 Posts
just loled about marines qq xD
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Anyway, back to the topic 
I think givine oracle a straight buff is not a good option.
They should have research at cybernetics core (unlocks after stargate) to buff it.
like 100/100 60s or 50/50 110s
Edit: but still sad that oracle is good of nothing unless its stat gets broken 
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Soo excited about the Terran changes, hope they will change the Meta a little
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On September 27 2013 16:10 wishr wrote:
just loled about marines qq xD
yeah. It's so old, one would think that someone at blizzard would understand at some point that this unit is the whole problem why terran can't have other nice things, if everybody repeats it for 3years.
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On September 27 2013 17:24 Big J wrote:yeah. It's so old, one would think that someone at blizzard would understand at some point that this unit is the whole problem why terran can't have other nice things, if everybody repeats it for 3years.
Marines are totally fine.
Medivacs and Warp-ins are "hidden" fundamental problems of SC2, for several reasons:
1. There is no point not having them, therefore no decision-making involved.
2. Good at everything: general fighting, harassing and defending.
3. Ignore defender's advantage. Therefore we can't make any creative maps beyond what we have.
As a result we have stale game, with similar maps and strategies.
A unit or ability needs to have major downside so that opponent could overcome it by good play. Medivacs and warpins have none. And game revolves around it. iirc Ret or TLO said something along this, that warpin makes Protoss too volatile. Which is not good since bad protoss could beat anyone with sheer luck, in similar way good protoss could lose to anyone.
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On September 27 2013 17:48 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 17:24 Big J wrote:On September 27 2013 16:10 wishr wrote:
just loled about marines qq xD yeah. It's so old, one would think that someone at blizzard would understand at some point that this unit is the whole problem why terran can't have other nice things, if everybody repeats it for 3years. Marines are totally fine.
yeah, marines are fine. Because the whole game has been rebalanced for them, from the siege tank nerf, barracks nerfs, bunker nerfs, stim nerf, BC nerf (and despite announcing it, not going through with the "big" BC buff in HotS), immortal buff... everything is hugely connected to how 50/0/1 marines counter every other singlefire unit cost for cost in the game.
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On September 27 2013 18:52 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 17:48 saddaromma wrote:On September 27 2013 17:24 Big J wrote:On September 27 2013 16:10 wishr wrote:
just loled about marines qq xD yeah. It's so old, one would think that someone at blizzard would understand at some point that this unit is the whole problem why terran can't have other nice things, if everybody repeats it for 3years. Marines are totally fine. yeah, marines are fine. Because the whole game has been rebalanced for them, from the siege tank nerf, barracks nerfs, bunker nerfs, stim nerf, BC nerf (and despite announcing it, not going through with the "big" BC buff in HotS), immortal buff... everything is hugely connected to how 50/0/1 marines counter every other singlefire unit cost for cost in the game.
Not true for every number of cost and supply, though. Zealots beat marines, but only for so long until the range>melee concept kicks in. 1 zealot easily beats 2 marines, 2 zealots beat 4 marines easily, I don't know for how long you can continue that, but if you want to talk about cost/supply efficiency, you cannot take control into account.
If someone controls units well, its a benefit of the player.
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In all the pro games I've watched I never felt that the widow mine did to much damage. However I think there isn't enough risk in using them. I felt the problem has been their behavior. A different lock on behavior coupled with a frontal arc AE extending into the direction the missile flying would have been my choice. It would make them harder to use and as such require more skill to get the most out of them.
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On September 27 2013 19:49 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 18:52 Big J wrote:On September 27 2013 17:48 saddaromma wrote:On September 27 2013 17:24 Big J wrote:On September 27 2013 16:10 wishr wrote:
just loled about marines qq xD yeah. It's so old, one would think that someone at blizzard would understand at some point that this unit is the whole problem why terran can't have other nice things, if everybody repeats it for 3years. Marines are totally fine. yeah, marines are fine. Because the whole game has been rebalanced for them, from the siege tank nerf, barracks nerfs, bunker nerfs, stim nerf, BC nerf (and despite announcing it, not going through with the "big" BC buff in HotS), immortal buff... everything is hugely connected to how 50/0/1 marines counter every other singlefire unit cost for cost in the game. Not true for every number of cost and supply, though. Zealots beat marines, but only for so long until the range>melee concept kicks in. 1 zealot easily beats 2 marines, 2 zealots beat 4 marines easily, I don't know for how long you can continue that, but if you want to talk about cost/supply efficiency, you cannot take control into account. If someone controls units well, its a benefit of the player.
Still fighting the good Terran lobby fight I see. Since we're not allowed to take control into account because it's the benefit of the player, to make the pro games more interesting to watch, could you please teach all the Protoss players of the world how to micro their Zealots so they can beat stutter stepping Marines of equal value without getting horrendously ineffective trades?
Some units simply don't have the same amount of micro potential as others. They're as close to +a move units as anything gets. Easy to use decently, impossible to use in a particularly good way. Add the fact that Terran has a brilliant anti-micro ability called the concussive shell that exists only to suck skill out of the game the problem becomes even easier to see.
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On September 27 2013 19:49 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 18:52 Big J wrote:On September 27 2013 17:48 saddaromma wrote:On September 27 2013 17:24 Big J wrote:On September 27 2013 16:10 wishr wrote:
just loled about marines qq xD yeah. It's so old, one would think that someone at blizzard would understand at some point that this unit is the whole problem why terran can't have other nice things, if everybody repeats it for 3years. Marines are totally fine. yeah, marines are fine. Because the whole game has been rebalanced for them, from the siege tank nerf, barracks nerfs, bunker nerfs, stim nerf, BC nerf (and despite announcing it, not going through with the "big" BC buff in HotS), immortal buff... everything is hugely connected to how 50/0/1 marines counter every other singlefire unit cost for cost in the game. Not true for every number of cost and supply, though. Zealots beat marines, but only for so long until the range>melee concept kicks in. 1 zealot easily beats 2 marines, 2 zealots beat 4 marines easily, I don't know for how long you can continue that, but if you want to talk about cost/supply efficiency, you cannot take control into account. If someone controls units well, its a benefit of the player.
he is talking about real game cost efficiency...you are talking about something like going in a unit test map and a-move both sides...gotta wonder which is more realistic for a real game situation 
oh boy if only blizz would do insane stuff in LotV and rebalance stuff like marines, warpgates, FFs, colossus and introduced better space control units like better tanks or lurker and make the game more stategy and multitasking BW like where smaller amounts of units could hold a position vs much bigger amount of units...basically antideathball play for all races.
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On September 27 2013 20:05 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 19:49 NarutO wrote:On September 27 2013 18:52 Big J wrote:On September 27 2013 17:48 saddaromma wrote:On September 27 2013 17:24 Big J wrote:On September 27 2013 16:10 wishr wrote:
just loled about marines qq xD yeah. It's so old, one would think that someone at blizzard would understand at some point that this unit is the whole problem why terran can't have other nice things, if everybody repeats it for 3years. Marines are totally fine. yeah, marines are fine. Because the whole game has been rebalanced for them, from the siege tank nerf, barracks nerfs, bunker nerfs, stim nerf, BC nerf (and despite announcing it, not going through with the "big" BC buff in HotS), immortal buff... everything is hugely connected to how 50/0/1 marines counter every other singlefire unit cost for cost in the game. Not true for every number of cost and supply, though. Zealots beat marines, but only for so long until the range>melee concept kicks in. 1 zealot easily beats 2 marines, 2 zealots beat 4 marines easily, I don't know for how long you can continue that, but if you want to talk about cost/supply efficiency, you cannot take control into account. If someone controls units well, its a benefit of the player. he is talking about real game cost efficiency...you are talking about something like going in a unit test map and a-move both sides...gotta wonder which is more realistic for a real game situation
Nope, I'm taling exactly what he is talking. Which is true for a few units that they beat marines cost for cost in those low scenarios on amove. (zerglings, roaches, marauders)
Thing is, even without control this swings into the marines favor already in quite low numbers.
And then we start to add all of those advantages we know about from design/ingame experience, like shooting air, glass canon design being generally superior due to harassment situations. Range/speed relations leading to micro advantages/possibilities against a lot of units; range/size relations leading to terrain advantages. They are just very strong+very universal which is very hard to balance gameplaywise.
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The biggest problem in mech TvP ist not vs ground units! I play low gm and only lose to Air toss (Tempest, Carrier), we just need something good vs Air. I mean you lose if P hits 1-2 good storms into Vikings and if u face a lot of Carrier you cant win anymore... I dont like the Tank buff at all but as a Terran Player i say why not :D !
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On September 27 2013 17:48 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 17:24 Big J wrote:On September 27 2013 16:10 wishr wrote:
just loled about marines qq xD yeah. It's so old, one would think that someone at blizzard would understand at some point that this unit is the whole problem why terran can't have other nice things, if everybody repeats it for 3years. Marines are totally fine. Medivacs and Warp-ins are "hidden" fundamental problems of SC2, for several reasons: 1. There is no point not having them, therefore no decision-making involved. 2. Good at everything: general fighting, harassing and defending. 3. Ignore defender's advantage. Therefore we can't make any creative maps beyond what we have. As a result we have stale game, with similar maps and strategies. A unit or ability needs to have major downside so that opponent could overcome it by good play. Medivacs and warpins have none. And game revolves around it. iirc Ret or TLO said something along this, that warpin makes Protoss too volatile. Which is not good since bad protoss could beat anyone with sheer luck, in similar way good protoss could lose to anyone.
What about queen's? Good early game defensive units, macro mechanics and creep. MId to Late game can transfuse.
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On September 27 2013 20:47 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 20:05 Decendos wrote:On September 27 2013 19:49 NarutO wrote:On September 27 2013 18:52 Big J wrote:On September 27 2013 17:48 saddaromma wrote:On September 27 2013 17:24 Big J wrote:On September 27 2013 16:10 wishr wrote:
just loled about marines qq xD yeah. It's so old, one would think that someone at blizzard would understand at some point that this unit is the whole problem why terran can't have other nice things, if everybody repeats it for 3years. Marines are totally fine. yeah, marines are fine. Because the whole game has been rebalanced for them, from the siege tank nerf, barracks nerfs, bunker nerfs, stim nerf, BC nerf (and despite announcing it, not going through with the "big" BC buff in HotS), immortal buff... everything is hugely connected to how 50/0/1 marines counter every other singlefire unit cost for cost in the game. Not true for every number of cost and supply, though. Zealots beat marines, but only for so long until the range>melee concept kicks in. 1 zealot easily beats 2 marines, 2 zealots beat 4 marines easily, I don't know for how long you can continue that, but if you want to talk about cost/supply efficiency, you cannot take control into account. If someone controls units well, its a benefit of the player. he is talking about real game cost efficiency...you are talking about something like going in a unit test map and a-move both sides...gotta wonder which is more realistic for a real game situation Nope, I'm taling exactly what he is talking. Which is true for a few units that they beat marines cost for cost in those low scenarios on amove. (zerglings, roaches, marauders) Thing is, even without control this swings into the marines favor already in quite low numbers. And then we start to add all of those advantages we know about from design/ingame experience, like shooting air, glass canon design being generally superior due to harassment situations. Range/speed relations leading to micro advantages/possibilities against a lot of units; range/size relations leading to terrain advantages. They are just very strong+very universal which is very hard to balance gameplaywise.
Marines need to be as strong as they are because:
-In the early game zerg and toss can have huge army value advantages (lower infrastructure cost, front loaded production)
-In the later stages of the game the other races have strong counters.
-Terran production is not flexible, a rax with a reactor is a huge investment and it can only produce marines.
-Terran can only adjust the supporting units to to enemy army. The core stays the same. If you go Bio the core of the army are Marines. That is the way the terran race works.This will never ever change.
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Russian Federation262 Posts
Whan about getting mines self-destruction ability?
For example: after mine not being shoot for X time it kills itself,doing damage in X circle?
Or
after mine has been produced it lives for X time, then destroys itself, damaging units around it. Just my stupid thoughts, but maybe thay would be helful for somebody...
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On September 27 2013 21:08 submarine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 20:47 Big J wrote:On September 27 2013 20:05 Decendos wrote:On September 27 2013 19:49 NarutO wrote:On September 27 2013 18:52 Big J wrote:On September 27 2013 17:48 saddaromma wrote:On September 27 2013 17:24 Big J wrote:On September 27 2013 16:10 wishr wrote:
just loled about marines qq xD yeah. It's so old, one would think that someone at blizzard would understand at some point that this unit is the whole problem why terran can't have other nice things, if everybody repeats it for 3years. Marines are totally fine. yeah, marines are fine. Because the whole game has been rebalanced for them, from the siege tank nerf, barracks nerfs, bunker nerfs, stim nerf, BC nerf (and despite announcing it, not going through with the "big" BC buff in HotS), immortal buff... everything is hugely connected to how 50/0/1 marines counter every other singlefire unit cost for cost in the game. Not true for every number of cost and supply, though. Zealots beat marines, but only for so long until the range>melee concept kicks in. 1 zealot easily beats 2 marines, 2 zealots beat 4 marines easily, I don't know for how long you can continue that, but if you want to talk about cost/supply efficiency, you cannot take control into account. If someone controls units well, its a benefit of the player. he is talking about real game cost efficiency...you are talking about something like going in a unit test map and a-move both sides...gotta wonder which is more realistic for a real game situation Nope, I'm taling exactly what he is talking. Which is true for a few units that they beat marines cost for cost in those low scenarios on amove. (zerglings, roaches, marauders) Thing is, even without control this swings into the marines favor already in quite low numbers. And then we start to add all of those advantages we know about from design/ingame experience, like shooting air, glass canon design being generally superior due to harassment situations. Range/speed relations leading to micro advantages/possibilities against a lot of units; range/size relations leading to terrain advantages. They are just very strong+very universal which is very hard to balance gameplaywise. Marines need to be as strong as they are because: -In the early game zerg and toss can have huge army value advantages (lower infrastructure cost, front loaded production) -In the later stages of the game the other races have strong counters. -Terran production is not flexible, a rax with a reactor is a huge investment and it can only produce marines. -Terran can only adjust the supporting units to to enemy army. The core stays the same. If you go Bio the core of the army are Marines. That is the way the terran race works.This will never ever change.
Yes, this is true now after the game has been balanced (tanknerf, stim/bunker/ marauder/barracks nerfs...) like this. I completely agree with you.
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EPT
