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The fact he shot solstice as soon as he claimed Doctor (or WOS claimed for him) which almost single-handily fucked scum, instead of like shooting me or BC or Acro, shows that he's not bullshitting with the TARDIS claim.
If he was traitor, fucking shoot me and let the lynch on solstice go through
If he was SK....then again shoot me or Acro, let town go crazy and shit, maybe misslynch more dudes, etc.
Instead he shot A GUY THAT WAS GETTING LYNCHED
That proves to me he is not SK.
Hell that could prove to me he's not traitor, since he wouldn't know the scumteam's plans by then (if he did he wouldn't have shot solstice to out the whole scumteam, scum would tell him "ehmm dude, why don't you shoot gonzaw or Acro or Xata and leave this D1 misslynch be, okay? Don't wanna get austin lynched".
I mean, unless the TARDIS is a super powerful shit that gives him 100 KP and makes him bulletproof or some shit I doubt kita would do that (if he DOESNT win with town). And if it does....then where is his 100 KP and bulletproof and shit?
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On July 03 2013 03:48 austinmcc wrote:
Gonzaw, why the wording in the OP, and why can 3Ps be town/anti-town if the only 3P is just a survivor.
Why does he not post his logs with geript and shoot me on D3 if just a survivor?
If the OP said "Alliance wins when Church die" and "Church wins when Alliance dies" then whoever claims 3P is "confirmed survivor" for all game long.
That makes the survivor the easiest role every in this game. Just claim survivor, and do nothing.
Nobody will kill you because it is confirmed in the OP that said guy wins with them
Since he isn't Church, town won't care about him since town don't have to kill him based on town's win-con
Since he isn't Town, scum won't care either since they don't have to kill him either
If he does shit and only votes himself every cycle or some shit, then he won't be helping either of them so both factions will give even less of a shit.
kita would only have to get the TARDIS, use it and pass it back, and do shit all game
Does that sound like either a balanced or fun game/role to you?
No, so hosts make the wording in the OP more vague so stuff (like what's happening now) happens.
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You're continuing to work from "Why did he do x if he's a survivor/SK?"
I don't know why he did what he did from those viewpoints. But based on the OP and the fact that 3Ps can be town/anti-town, I don't think he IS either of those.
Again, it wouldn't be written like that, and 3Ps couldn't be town/anti-town, if he were just neutral.
You're starting from a false premise, imo, that he's actually one of those two specific roles.
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On July 03 2013 03:54 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 03:48 austinmcc wrote:
Gonzaw, why the wording in the OP, and why can 3Ps be town/anti-town if the only 3P is just a survivor.
Why does he not post his logs with geript and shoot me on D3 if just a survivor? If the OP said "Alliance wins when Church die" and "Church wins when Alliance dies" then whoever claims 3P is "confirmed survivor" for all game long. That makes the survivor the easiest role every in this game. Just claim survivor, and do nothing. Nobody will kill you because it is confirmed in the OP that said guy wins with them. No.
in ANY game where you're a survivor and the OP says "town wins when they eliminate all mafia or nothing can stop that" and "mafia wins when they eliminate all town or nothing can stop that", you can just claim survivor right as the game starts.
The protection from that is that there's no guarantee you're a survivor. You have to work to get people to trust your claim and not try to pick you off.
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Or, if you say that role would be shitty, then there are MULTIPLE ways to fix it.
Maybe you change the OP, sure.
Or maybe you just don't include a shitty role in the game, and you include a different role instead.
Again, you're working from "Kita is a survivor, survivor is a shitty role if the OP was way number 1, so the hosts made the OP way number 2 so it's not as shitty a role." But you're discarding "Survivor is a shitty role if the OP was way number 1, but instead of altering the OP to make survivor less shitty, the hosts just didn't make a survivor and made a different role instead."
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Yes, that's what I said.
That's why it doesn't say "Town wins when mafia die" or "Alliance wins when Church die", it says "Town wins when anti-town die"
The point is that the wording being like that doesn't 100% prove kita is SK or some shit like that.
Basically, the wording is irrelevant
The wording was your main case for "figuring out" kita as anti-town 3P. If the wording is irrelevant then we are at the same spot we were before, with us lynching you confirmed scum and kita just being survivor.
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No, it's the opposite.
The wording would be irrelevant if it said "Town wins when all mafia die." Who cares what kita is, you guys win when I die.
But the wording says "Town wins when all anti-town dies." That's relevant, because of what's NOT in the OP but what you can confirm if you ask - 3P can be town/anti-town.
You think it's worded like that to be confusing, to hide a survivor. But that's not the only option, nor do I think that's the likely option. You would word the OP like that if you had a town/anti-town 3P.
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On July 03 2013 03:50 gonzaw wrote:
The fact he shot solstice as soon as he claimed Doctor (or WOS claimed for him) which almost single-handily fucked scum, instead of like shooting me or BC or Acro, shows that he's not bullshitting with the TARDIS claim.
If he was traitor, fucking shoot me and let the lynch on solstice go through
If he was SK....then again shoot me or Acro, let town go crazy and shit, maybe misslynch more dudes, etc.
Instead he shot A GUY THAT WAS GETTING LYNCHED
That proves to me he is not SK.
Hell that could prove to me he's not traitor, since he wouldn't know the scumteam's plans by then (if he did he wouldn't have shot solstice to out the whole scumteam, scum would tell him "ehmm dude, why don't you shoot gonzaw or Acro or Xata and leave this D1 misslynch be, okay? Don't wanna get austin lynched".
I mean, unless the TARDIS is a super powerful shit that gives him 100 KP and makes him bulletproof or some shit I doubt kita would do that (if he DOESNT win with town). And if it does....then where is his 100 KP and bulletproof and shit?
Gonzaw, I don't think he is a SK. I think he is an anti-town 3rd party. There is also something in role pm mentioning the TARDIS. I agree that's why he shot Solstice. But I disagree saying why would he do that if it hurt mafia. It is day 1, he doesn't know who scum were day 1. In fact he figured it out because of what he did with his shot. Look at what he did from Day 2 on and tell me how that comes from a neutral survivor and not scum-aligned survivor.
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On July 03 2013 04:00 austinmcc wrote:
Or, if you say that role would be shitty, then there are MULTIPLE ways to fix it.
Maybe you change the OP, sure.
Or maybe you just don't include a shitty role in the game, and you include a different role instead.
Again, you're working from "Kita is a survivor, survivor is a shitty role if the OP was way number 1, so the hosts made the OP way number 2 so it's not as shitty a role." But you're discarding "Survivor is a shitty role if the OP was way number 1, but instead of altering the OP to make survivor less shitty, the hosts just didn't make a survivor and made a different role instead."
Ehmm...kita's role right now WOULD be shitty if he doesn't win with both factions.
If what I said happened then kita would have no worries and wouldn't think his role is shitty, he has an easy win why would he? (granted if he doesn't fuck up obviously)
Also, if that was the case then he'd be confirmed survivor 3P as well in this game.
He just has to say this:
"Hello people, I am 3P survivor. Read OP I am confirmed to win with either of you, so I won't do anything and you just won't kill me. Why would you trust me? Because I need the TARDIS to win the game. The TARDIS is an item that I can activate and it passes around people.
Now there's no way the hosts would give scum knowledge of someone else's role like that. So if you are townie and created the TARDIS, please confirm this so I become confirmed 3P survivor
Also please give me the TARDIS today, I'll give it back to you, and I won't bother you anymore
Thanks bye"
Even if he wasn't 100% confirmed survivor, it would just take him a couple of cycles to prove himself and have the easiest win ever. Like that's happening yeah.
"Kita is a survivor, survivor is a shitty role if the OP was way number 1, so the hosts made the OP way number 2 so it's not as shitty a role."
Yes, and this is true. If kita is really survivor, it makes sense for the OP to be the way it is.
Yes, it also works the other way round, the OP is the way it is, and kita is not really survivor.
However, your arguments since the beginning stemmed assuming the 1st one wasn't true basically, if not then there would be 0 reason at all to use the wording of the OP as "proof" kita is not survivor, since it would very very easily be the case if he is.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On July 03 2013 04:05 Crossfire99 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 03:50 gonzaw wrote:
The fact he shot solstice as soon as he claimed Doctor (or WOS claimed for him) which almost single-handily fucked scum, instead of like shooting me or BC or Acro, shows that he's not bullshitting with the TARDIS claim.
If he was traitor, fucking shoot me and let the lynch on solstice go through
If he was SK....then again shoot me or Acro, let town go crazy and shit, maybe misslynch more dudes, etc.
Instead he shot A GUY THAT WAS GETTING LYNCHED
That proves to me he is not SK.
Hell that could prove to me he's not traitor, since he wouldn't know the scumteam's plans by then (if he did he wouldn't have shot solstice to out the whole scumteam, scum would tell him "ehmm dude, why don't you shoot gonzaw or Acro or Xata and leave this D1 misslynch be, okay? Don't wanna get austin lynched".
I mean, unless the TARDIS is a super powerful shit that gives him 100 KP and makes him bulletproof or some shit I doubt kita would do that (if he DOESNT win with town). And if it does....then where is his 100 KP and bulletproof and shit? Gonzaw, I don't think he is a SK. I think he is an anti-town 3rd party. There is also something in role pm mentioning the TARDIS. I agree that's why he shot Solstice. But I disagree saying why would he do that if it hurt mafia. It is day 1, he doesn't know who scum were day 1. In fact he figured it out because of what he did with his shot. Look at what he did from Day 2 on and tell me how that comes from a neutral survivor and not scum-aligned survivor.
An anti-town 3rd party that you are describing based on the win conditions listed in the OP has never existed in team liquid mafia history. It doesn't make sense from a game perspective and it doesn't make sense from a balance perspective. You're confusing what a neutral survivor actually means. A neutral survivor isn't neutral to both factions. He is going to pick one faction to win with and one faction to back stab. He win condition is surviving. I had an opportunity at 2v1v1 and I took it. It was an anti-town action to take a join mafia win, but a survivor is not an anti-town alignment and I can still win with town.
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It's not the proof I want it to be because I can't get an answer to the question "are all 3Ps necessarily town/anti-town."
But it's not PROOF that he's a survivor either, which is how he was trying to spin it earlier, and you seem to be taking it now.
But it does open up the POSSIBILITY that he's anti-town 3P. That's a reason that you would write the OP like that, so you could have factional 3Ps. And that's a role that makes sense with his actions on D3 and beyond. That's a role/alignment that makes MORE SENSE with his actions than survivor, imo.
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On July 03 2013 04:12 austinmcc wrote:
But it's not PROOF that he's a survivor either, which is how he was trying to spin it earlier, and you seem to be taking it now.
It's proof that your whole "epiphany" is based on a false premise. I fail to see how the rest of the stuff you mentioned after that (with the exception of him claiming traitor to you I guess) is justified at all based on that.
He had chances of being anti-town 3P before you made your "case"; and he does have chances of being anti-town 3P now yes
But you making that "case" makes no difference because that premise ("kita is anti-town 3P because of the wording of the OP") is false
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On July 03 2013 04:12 austinmcc wrote:
It's not the proof I want it to be because I can't get an answer to the question "are all 3Ps necessarily town/anti-town."
But it's not PROOF that he's a survivor either, which is how he was trying to spin it earlier, and you seem to be taking it now.
But it does open up the POSSIBILITY that he's anti-town 3P.
On July 03 2013 02:45 austinmcc wrote:
You didn't shoot me on D3 because you can't win with town.
It's only a proof when it's most convenient to you.
By the way, do we have confirmation that austin can't use his role anymore? I forget who said they created it.
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On July 03 2013 04:10 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 04:05 Crossfire99 wrote:On July 03 2013 03:50 gonzaw wrote:
The fact he shot solstice as soon as he claimed Doctor (or WOS claimed for him) which almost single-handily fucked scum, instead of like shooting me or BC or Acro, shows that he's not bullshitting with the TARDIS claim.
If he was traitor, fucking shoot me and let the lynch on solstice go through
If he was SK....then again shoot me or Acro, let town go crazy and shit, maybe misslynch more dudes, etc.
Instead he shot A GUY THAT WAS GETTING LYNCHED
That proves to me he is not SK.
Hell that could prove to me he's not traitor, since he wouldn't know the scumteam's plans by then (if he did he wouldn't have shot solstice to out the whole scumteam, scum would tell him "ehmm dude, why don't you shoot gonzaw or Acro or Xata and leave this D1 misslynch be, okay? Don't wanna get austin lynched".
I mean, unless the TARDIS is a super powerful shit that gives him 100 KP and makes him bulletproof or some shit I doubt kita would do that (if he DOESNT win with town). And if it does....then where is his 100 KP and bulletproof and shit? Gonzaw, I don't think he is a SK. I think he is an anti-town 3rd party. There is also something in role pm mentioning the TARDIS. I agree that's why he shot Solstice. But I disagree saying why would he do that if it hurt mafia. It is day 1, he doesn't know who scum were day 1. In fact he figured it out because of what he did with his shot. Look at what he did from Day 2 on and tell me how that comes from a neutral survivor and not scum-aligned survivor. An anti-town 3rd party that you are describing based on the win conditions listed in the OP has never existed in team liquid mafia history. It doesn't make sense from a game perspective and it doesn't make sense from a balance perspective. You're confusing what a neutral survivor actually means. A neutral survivor isn't neutral to both factions. He is going to pick one faction to win with and one faction to back stab. He win condition is surviving. I had an opportunity at 2v1v1 and I took it. It was an anti-town action to take a join mafia win, but a survivor is not an anti-town alignment and I can still win with town.
I'm not saying neutral survivor doesnt choose a side. I'm saying he chooses the side he is most likely to win with. In this case it was town since bc shot scum day 2 and you could have too, but you decided to actively hinder town at every opportunity even though it made no sense to do so.
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austin created his own role
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On July 03 2013 04:05 Crossfire99 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 03:50 gonzaw wrote:
The fact he shot solstice as soon as he claimed Doctor (or WOS claimed for him) which almost single-handily fucked scum, instead of like shooting me or BC or Acro, shows that he's not bullshitting with the TARDIS claim.
If he was traitor, fucking shoot me and let the lynch on solstice go through
If he was SK....then again shoot me or Acro, let town go crazy and shit, maybe misslynch more dudes, etc.
Instead he shot A GUY THAT WAS GETTING LYNCHED
That proves to me he is not SK.
Hell that could prove to me he's not traitor, since he wouldn't know the scumteam's plans by then (if he did he wouldn't have shot solstice to out the whole scumteam, scum would tell him "ehmm dude, why don't you shoot gonzaw or Acro or Xata and leave this D1 misslynch be, okay? Don't wanna get austin lynched".
I mean, unless the TARDIS is a super powerful shit that gives him 100 KP and makes him bulletproof or some shit I doubt kita would do that (if he DOESNT win with town). And if it does....then where is his 100 KP and bulletproof and shit? Gonzaw, I don't think he is a SK. I think he is an anti-town 3rd party. There is also something in role pm mentioning the TARDIS. I agree that's why he shot Solstice. But I disagree saying why would he do that if it hurt mafia. It is day 1, he doesn't know who scum were day 1. In fact he figured it out because of what he did with his shot. Look at what he did from Day 2 on and tell me how that comes from a neutral survivor and not scum-aligned survivor.
I can see his play from that on as either scum-aligned survivor, as SK, or as neutral survivor.
He is not town, he can do whatever the fuck he wants based on that. He's entitled to do anything "anti-town" because.....he's not town.
You can't expect a survivor to side with town 100% of the time, specially if town are in a bad position (BC shooting Xata, kita killing Dandel, and austin SUPPOSEDLY unvoting geript to make it 3v2v1 last night..or 3v1v1 I don't remember).
I just can't believe his traitor/TARDIS collector/survivor role would be in this game, that's all.
Well Xfire, that's my opinion, I think we should lynch austin today.
You say we have like 75% chances of winning against austin inthe WIFOM battle? Well I really have no idea how that's possible lol (will think about it later).
If you think you want to take the safe route and lynch kita, if you think we have a higher chance of winning as well, then feel free to do so (I hope this isn't a bluff or something because its only purpose would be confusing me lol)
You control 2 votes, so it's not like I won't change my vote back to kita and force a NL or something 
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You know...austin could very well have a hidden shit in his role as well. Like a hidden RB, or hidden KP, or some shit.
He would of course not tell anything about it.....maybe that 75% chance is a little bit lower Xfire (in case austin does have some other shit with his role)
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On July 03 2013 04:15 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 04:12 austinmcc wrote:
But it's not PROOF that he's a survivor either, which is how he was trying to spin it earlier, and you seem to be taking it now.
It's proof that your whole "epiphany" is based on a false premise. I fail to see how the rest of the stuff you mentioned after that (with the exception of him claiming traitor to you I guess) is justified at all based on that. He had chances of being anti-town 3P before you made your "case"; and he does have chances of being anti-town 3P now yes But you making that "case" makes no difference because that premise ("kita is anti-town 3P because of the wording of the OP") is false I, for one, didn't realize that he had the chance of being anti-town 3P before I asked yesterday morning. Did you actually consider that beforehand? He said all 3Ps were survivors, and I just trusted that without thinking about it.
All the rest of the stuff is half me blabbering on, but somewhat relevant. He's lied about a couple weird things - claiming traitor to us, lying about the shot on DI being his last shot to geript (you're correct, I kept saying three shots but it would have been his second).
There's some minor consideration, imo, to be given to his role him and his role's place in the mythology of the show. I don't see a situation in which the character that is chosen to be a neutral survivor is one of the major baddies from the show. You may see things differently, I dunno.
More importantly is just his actual actions. He was sure I was scum, geript had a check on him, and yet he played out D3 in the most anti-town and pro-scum way possible, pretty much. That doesn't make sense if he's pro-town or can win with town.
I said way way way too much stuff, as I often do when let loose with possibilities like this. But there is information in all the crap I've posted that does, imo, point towards him being anti-town - his actions and the role name probably most of all.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On July 03 2013 04:19 Crossfire99 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 04:10 kitaman27 wrote:On July 03 2013 04:05 Crossfire99 wrote:On July 03 2013 03:50 gonzaw wrote:
The fact he shot solstice as soon as he claimed Doctor (or WOS claimed for him) which almost single-handily fucked scum, instead of like shooting me or BC or Acro, shows that he's not bullshitting with the TARDIS claim.
If he was traitor, fucking shoot me and let the lynch on solstice go through
If he was SK....then again shoot me or Acro, let town go crazy and shit, maybe misslynch more dudes, etc.
Instead he shot A GUY THAT WAS GETTING LYNCHED
That proves to me he is not SK.
Hell that could prove to me he's not traitor, since he wouldn't know the scumteam's plans by then (if he did he wouldn't have shot solstice to out the whole scumteam, scum would tell him "ehmm dude, why don't you shoot gonzaw or Acro or Xata and leave this D1 misslynch be, okay? Don't wanna get austin lynched".
I mean, unless the TARDIS is a super powerful shit that gives him 100 KP and makes him bulletproof or some shit I doubt kita would do that (if he DOESNT win with town). And if it does....then where is his 100 KP and bulletproof and shit? Gonzaw, I don't think he is a SK. I think he is an anti-town 3rd party. There is also something in role pm mentioning the TARDIS. I agree that's why he shot Solstice. But I disagree saying why would he do that if it hurt mafia. It is day 1, he doesn't know who scum were day 1. In fact he figured it out because of what he did with his shot. Look at what he did from Day 2 on and tell me how that comes from a neutral survivor and not scum-aligned survivor. An anti-town 3rd party that you are describing based on the win conditions listed in the OP has never existed in team liquid mafia history. It doesn't make sense from a game perspective and it doesn't make sense from a balance perspective. You're confusing what a neutral survivor actually means. A neutral survivor isn't neutral to both factions. He is going to pick one faction to win with and one faction to back stab. He win condition is surviving. I had an opportunity at 2v1v1 and I took it. It was an anti-town action to take a join mafia win, but a survivor is not an anti-town alignment and I can still win with town. I'm not saying neutral survivor doesnt choose a side. I'm saying he chooses the side he is most likely to win with. In this case it was town since bc shot scum day 2 and you could have too, but you decided to actively hinder town at every opportunity even though it made no sense to do so.
I got an offer to go into D4 at 2v1v1. That is an automatic victory for me (I didn't consider your vote steal).
Hindsight is 20/20. I did not know that the mafia team consisted of 3 members on day two. I had a strong suspicion that austin was mafia, but I also had a strong suspicion that Sk8r was mafia (we still have no idea what happened to BC's shot refunded shot). Eliminating a likely lynch candidate is a poor move for a survivor. If I was wrong about austin, then I'm in an even worse position than shooting dandel. Sure, if I could do things over that might have given me the greatest shot at winning, but at the time I thought I was doing what would be the best for me.
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On July 03 2013 04:23 kitaman27 wrote:
(we still have no idea what happened to BC's shot refunded shot).
120
Geript
06-27-2013
07:18 PM ET (US)
yes and yes
119
austinmcc
06-27-2013
07:16 PM ET (US)
Did he kill solstice or rb BC D1? We still don't actually know what either of those things was.
There's a chance BC is actually some kind of 3P or...something. I dunno.
Dis game.
I asked geript about the RB on BC, and whether you were responsible. He said you were. Note that I posted these logs yesterday, when the rb on BC wasn't even mentioned.
If I'm the one altering logs, then I had to realize YESTERDAY that the roleblock might come up, and alter logs before it was ever mentioned just to have them in the future.
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EPT
