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Lol kita. I'm not playing to lose and neither are you. If we lynch austin, you win. It is as simple as that. What is not so simple is whether town will win in that scenario as well.
I asked about the win conditions and they are worded that way for a reason. An anti-town 3rd party role is possible. Yeah sure an anti-town survivor is weird and I haven't really heard of it before, but anything is possible. You bring up no factional kp, but you do have "factional" kp. You are an every other day anonymous day vig. That is definitely better than a night kp of the same frequency. You mention you aren't bulletproof or anything of that nature and I believe you about that before you had the TARDIS, but after you gained possession of the TARDIS, it was drained. To me this means you did something to it. For all I know you are now bulletproof or a vet or something.
(By "traitor" I meant working with mafia, but has to survive to win.)
I think I'll just wait till gonzaw comes back and see what he thinks about this.
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On July 03 2013 02:31 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 02:23 austinmcc wrote:
---HEY HEY HEY---
Kita keeps saying he didn't want to shoot at me D3 because he thinks I had the TARDIS and was protected.
Kita's shot is SILENT. We didn't know who killed solstice D1. He didn't type anything in thread. All that happens is that someone dies. You knew that there was a day vig role that is refreshed every other day. Your options are: 1) Use the self protection role to ensure a day vig cannot kill you 2) Do not use the self protection role because you want to allow the day vig to kill you. What?
Of course I knew there was a day vig role. The day vig was talking to my mafia buddy, claiming mafia traitor, trying to scheme out a way to get a mafia win. Why am I using the TARDIS to just-in-case protect myself from that guy?
Especially when using it means I probably pass it to geript, who was clear mafia and getting lynched/killed. That means it goes from me (mafia) to him (mafia), and would likely go to town after he died, making it much harder for us to win the game.
This whole thing about me maybe being protected is silly. I couldn't have seen a shot coming. It would have been dumb of me to use the TARDIS just in case a guy who claimed mafia traitor was going to shoot me.
You didn't shoot me on D3 because you can't win with town.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
I guess it comes down to the fact that it is possible I'm some weird mafia aligned third party survivor, but like I said, out of thousands of roles that have been played, this type of role has never existed. It would be incredibly poorly designed anyways. If the mafia survivor plays too scummy, he gets lynched by town and loses, even if the mafia wins. The mafia survivor could get shot accidentally at night and lose, even if the mafia wins. The mafia survivor could play neutral, get lynched by his own team because they don't know he exists, and lose, even if the mafia wins. A game is balanced to ensure all players have an equal chance of winning. Assuming in a perfectly balanced game, mafia and town have a 50% chance of winning, this mafia survivor would only win in a fraction of the 50% due to the possible outcomes I listed above. Therefore, all players wouldn't have a equal chance of winning and the role wouldn't make sense. Possible, but not probable, but I guess I've said my part.
I just know that if I were in your position, I would not pick the option that leaves the claimed mafia alive and forces us to pull off a night action save to survive.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On July 03 2013 02:45 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 02:31 kitaman27 wrote:On July 03 2013 02:23 austinmcc wrote:
---HEY HEY HEY---
Kita keeps saying he didn't want to shoot at me D3 because he thinks I had the TARDIS and was protected.
Kita's shot is SILENT. We didn't know who killed solstice D1. He didn't type anything in thread. All that happens is that someone dies. You knew that there was a day vig role that is refreshed every other day. Your options are: 1) Use the self protection role to ensure a day vig cannot kill you 2) Do not use the self protection role because you want to allow the day vig to kill you. What? Of course I knew there was a day vig role. The day vig was talking to my mafia buddy, claiming mafia traitor, trying to scheme out a way to get a mafia win. Why am I using the TARDIS to just-in-case protect myself from that guy? Especially when using it means I probably pass it to geript, who was clear mafia and getting lynched/killed. That means it goes from me (mafia) to him (mafia), and would likely go to town after he died, making it much harder for us to win the game. This whole thing about me maybe being protected is silly. I couldn't have seen a shot coming. It would have been dumb of me to use the TARDIS just in case a guy who claimed mafia traitor was going to shoot me. You didn't shoot me on D3 because you can't win with town.
I didn't claim traitor and even if I did, your fake logs indicate that you wouldn't have believed me.
I can win with town. You're making this statement as if it is fact, even though you said yourself that you have no clue. My death means that you probably win, but lying to push my death doesn't make your statement true.
Anyways, I'm sure we're accomplishing much arguing with each other :p
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On July 03 2013 02:49 kitaman27 wrote:
Anyways, I'm sure we're accomplishing much arguing with each other :p The other option is actually doing work at work 
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On July 03 2013 02:51 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 02:49 kitaman27 wrote:
Anyways, I'm sure we're accomplishing much arguing with each other :p The other option is actually doing work at work
Maybe go back to the bears thing. I think we all enjoyed that.
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Seriously, they are the WORST.
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I'm here
On July 02 2013 15:00 Crossfire99 wrote:
SK is similar but different. He needs to be the only survivor at the end and kill everyone. This means that he usually has some form of KP to help accomplish this. His mentality is similar to a survivor in that he wants to blend in early game when he is unsure about who is going to win, but is different in that once he sees one side starting to win, he wants to play against that side to keep the game close so he has an easier chance to achieve his win condition.
Well. I see 3 possibilities:
1)He wins with town
2)He wins with scum
3)He wins alone.
The "SK" means 3 (there's no difference between "SK" and "Survivor" other than that win condition above).
If he was indeed SK, I think it may just be too much.
Not only does he have to be the LAST MAN standing, he has to get the TARDIS, activate it, and all of this with just 1 KP every 2 cycles, and apparently not being bulletproof.
If he was bulletproof and was SK, then why would he side with scum on D3? Why would he even PM geript in the first place? If his and scum's plan went through (austin unvoting and voting BC for instance), then there would be 2 scum alive, like just 2 townies alive, and him. But on D4 he'd have no day vig, and he would have to vote with scum to lynch a townie. In that case scum would most likely kill the remaining townie to make it 2v1 with scum and SK kita. He would 100% lose right there.
Yes, maybe there would be other possibilities, but would he contact scum and "side" with them like that if he was SK?
The only explanation if he's SK would be if he wasn't bulletproof...
If he was bulletproof, why side with scum if he could just take a shot at night?
If he wasn't....then how the fuck is the game balanced?
...well, if he was bulletproof I guess he could side with scum if he thought all scum would get lynched in succession, and only townies would be remaining (if all scum die and game isn't over, town lynches kita 100%). He could have sided with scum to take down more townies before backstabbing scum at some point, maybe when his day vig is recharged or something...
....meh, this seems too much speculation in either way :/
The other possibility, the one I may be thinking of, is (2). He is a "traitor survivor", represents an anti-town faction, as austin said is shown in the OP, etc.
He sided with scum because obviously. He may have told geript he was traitor and then altered the QT log (because in practical terms he WOULD be a traitor if he wins with scum).
Still....for me a "balanced" role is either plain survivor or SK.
A Survivor with no factional KP, no bulletproof, that can win with either alignment
A SK with factional KP, bulletproof, that has to win alone.
If you have a SK without factional KP or being bulletproof, or if you have a survivor that can't win with either alignment....I get a weird feeling because it just doesn't ring true to me.
Also, speaking of the OP and shit...should we actually take everything the OP says as 100% truth?
I mean, countless of other games have scum's win condition as "you win when all town is dead" or "you win when you outnumber town", yet those games have SKs.
That alone proves those OPs "lied" (it should have said "you win when you are the last faction alive, along other people whose win conditions don't contradict yours" or something), yet those games exist and have SKs in them.
Why can't this game be similar? In both ways:
1)Even if the OP says "Church wins when all Town are dead", it doesn't mean there isn't a SK (because of what I said above)
2)If the OP says "Alliance wins when all Anti-Town are dead" it doesn't mean there is 100% an anti-town survivor or some shit. If the hosts had said "Alliance wins when there is no more Church" then people would have gotten suspicious if they see a 3P in the game, hosts put stuff like that in the OP to be vague enough, not to have a strict rule set that is followed mechanically with every single role and faction in the game, etc.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Ask the hosts if the OP is correct. They can confirm if there was a mistake in the wording.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Hosts do not lie to the players (unless it's iGrok). If the OP says that only X is possible, we do not need to consider Y.
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There's no reason for 3Ps to be town/anti-town if it's just SK/survivors. SKs can't win barring multikills, survivors wouldn't be factional.
The facts that: (1) the OP is written as it is, and (2) 3Ps can be town/anti-town, mean that he's some kind of variation, or just a 3P role they created.
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Or, sorry, not that he necessarily IS a variation, but that there's no reason for 3Ps to only be survivors AND be able to be town/anti-town.
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*sigh* Well I don't know what to think really
My gut tells me to believe kita...because this shit is just too fucking complex if he's SK or pro-scum 3P
But...if he's pro-scum "traitor", then the stuff he did makes sense (side with scum as early as possible).
If he's actually traitor then I assume he did believe MZ/geript/austin/etc were scum; and if he's pro-scum traitor his actions up until the D2 Dandel shot don't really fit with him being pro-scum.
The thing is that I just can't really believe he would have to be SK/traitor AND get that shitty TARDIS to win. Either you are SK/traitor or you are survivor and have to get the TARDIS. It just doesn't make much sense in my head fusing those win conditions like that on a guy that has 1 KP every 2 cycles and is a lover.
If you make an SK that has to get the TARDIS NO MATTER WHAT he HAS to expose himself, like kita did on N1, and D2, etc. That puts attention on him. If he's SK then that role is very badly designed, you don't FORCE your player to have the spotlight on him if you mean for him to be the last man standing.
With traitor it doesn't make sense....because it doesn't make sense.
If he's traitor then all these things can happen:
1)Scum win very easily, kita doesn't have enough time to get TARDIS
2)Scum win very easily, kita already got the TARDIS via town or shit
3)Scum win very easily, they got the TARDIS very soon and they coordinated with kita so kita wouldn't have to worry about the TARDIS
kita WINS
4)Scum are struggling, kita doesn't have the TARDIS
5)Scum are struggling, kita already got TARDIS from some source
6)Scum are struggling, scum already have TARDIS they can coordinate with kita easily so he doesn't have to worry about TARDIS
7)Scum are losing badly, kita doesn't have the TARDIS
8)Scum are losing badly, kita already got TARDIS from some source
9)Scum are losing badly, scum already got TARDIS
Here's the thing I don't understand if this is the case: Either these are way imbalanced against kita, or they don't matter at all, or the whole TARDIS thing can very very easily be bypassed
1)In this case kita loses. He's a traitor. He might be the best traitor EVAH. But because of bad luck he didn't get the TARDIS, so he loses. Tought titties right? This scenario is completely unfair to kita who did play his win condition
2)Kita somehow fulfilled his TARDIS win-con, and scum are rolling. Kita had good luck and/or played good, he wins here. Nothing to say here other than...yeah he got lucky and or played very well for him to win like this
3)This means that if scum get the TARDIS early, not only scum face-roll the game, but they can just communicate with kita, either in-thread or via kita's mason (or other mason shit, like MZ's), and kita never has to worry about the TARDIS again? If so...why include the TARDIS shit in his win-con? kita has to play traitor and play for scum, and scum can just "win" the game for him by manipulating the TARDIS themselves? So kita has to do nothing at all regarding the TARDIS to fulfill that win condition? If so why even bother putting it in? Just make kita a normal traitor and that's it
4)Then in this case kita is fucked. He has to play pro-scum so scum can try to win this thing, but he ALSO has to do shit to get TARDIS. Shit might include exposing himself, making risky plays that would have otherwise be very bad if he wanted scum to win, etc.
This is just too much work to expect of a single player. He has to play for 1 alignment and try to win the game with them, and at the same time go for a scavenger hunt for some item that gets randomly distributed to players like half of the time. On top of that he's a lover
Why don't you just make kita a lover SK treestump without KP while you are at it?
5)Then nothing to see here, this just plays as if he was a normal traitor. But again, he needs some luck or very awesome plays to gain the TARDIS in that situation (and you don't balance a role assuming the guy will get lucky or pull of the plans of the century)
6)Same as (3) in the sense that the TARDIS shit then becomes the most pointless shit ever. kita would just 100% play as a traitor here and never worry about the TARDIS again. Seems like bad design to include this possibility
7)Then kita has basically 99% lost. He can do nothing to win, except pray. Even if he gets super lucky and gets the TARDIS, he would most likely neglect playing for scum (or die trying) and would lose. If he plays for scum and they make a super comeback and are set to win, he still doesn't have the TARDIS.
8)Well, he got lucky played well, but now he has to both try to survive and make scum win the game. This is either unfair to him or has no relevance
9)Same shit as before with (3) and (6)
I forgot to mention something:
Not only would traitor kita have to get the TARDIS, and win with scum, he would have to SURVIVE at the end of the game
Normal traitor roles don't need to survive to win with scum, they just need scum to win. That's why some traitor plans involve the traitor fake-claiming shit, creating chaos and then getting lynched. He doens't give a shit about dying as long as he can help scum.
But in this scenario kita would have to be ALIVE. That means he wouldn't have to get lynched, nor killed by townies, and nor killed by scum accidentally.
ALL THE WHILE HE HAS TO TRY AND GET THE TARDIS SOMEHOW WHILE IT GOES FROM HAND TO HAND, TOTALLY RANDOMLY AT TIMES?
How the hell could kita play a role like that?
I'm inclined to believe him for now. Well....at least not believe he's survivor traitor 3P who can only win if he has the TARDIS, scum win, and he's alive at the end of the game.
If he is SK then the other shit I said holds true as well. Not only does he have to be the LAST MAN STANDING, he has to get that fricking TARDIS EXPOSING HIMSELF and putting the spotlight onto him.
Why? Because if he doesn't then he can'd do shit to try and get the TARDIS. Here are the only other options:
1)Try to be pro-town enough for a townie to give it to you:
Well tough titties, scum just shot you at night because you are playing for town and you have no night protection
2)Try to just lay low like any SK and hope you randomly get the TARDIS at some point:
Well shorty bossoms. If scum get the TARDIS they will pass it along each other, then it will be randomly given to some guy and you have like 7% chance of getting it. Townies may pass it to other townies, and even if a townie with it is killed or something you (again) have like 7% chances of getting it. You just lose the game congrats
3)Use the mason ability with someone to try and manipulate him into giving you the TARDIS without all thread knowing:
Well gloomy buttocks, 2 cycles have passed and you are now a lover with that guy and you most likely lost as well. Also now that guy claimed in-thread you have the TARDIS and town will soon be looking for your head. Again, an unnecessary stuff kita has to do to obtain the TARDIS that might cost him the game as SK.
He also only has 1 KP every 2 cycles. If he's at 1v1 or 2v1 or some shit he can insta-lose if he goes into the off-cycle.
Also, guess what? He gets insta fucked if there's a massclaim on D1.
Yes, as soon as town mass-claim on D1, or any time basically, SK kita loses the game. Zepphird would claim he made role to char X, and either kita HAS to claim he's that char. If he doesn't maybe...maybe nobody notices it is him who has that role (if there are other people with unconfirmed roles for instance, or if scum lied about some, etc).
However, the moment he masons someone, the moment he gets role-checked (not even alignment-checked), the moment other roles are confirmed, he's toast. He just anonymously killed a bunch of people and is confirmed anti-town for doing so.
Had he had a factional SK KP nothing would happen, he could have any role in the world and not "get caught" as SK for claiming it, etc.
However:
Having to get the TARDIS and win with any alignment, does make sense.
There are plenty of roles like this in the past, where they are "survivors" with stuff or their sole win condition is getting a single stuff.
For instance, it's similar to the roles from Arkham Asylum and Arkham City, with the Joker, etc. Those roles only cared about surviving enough to kill specific guys or gain specific items. They wouldn't have to care about making a specific faction win (or making a specific faction lose), or wouldn't have to care about not dying when doing so, etc.
Another example is Gollum from LOTR Mafia:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=264699¤tpage=129#2576
Like, not only is he bulletproof there, not only can he get a list or something of people who possibly have the ring, he wins as soon as he gets it (no "surviving until end-game" shit).
In this game (if kita is telling the truth) kita has no way of knowing who has the TARDIS, has no protection at night, and even if he gets the TARDIS he has to live until end-game (if he gets TARDIS and dies later, tough luck dude).
If you want me to think he is FORCED to make other factions lose (if he's scum-aligned he's forced to make town lose, if he's SK he's forced to make both factions lose) then I have to say "Bullshit".
....yeah I think we could just lynch austin today. I get the feeling that even if we lynch kita we'll fuck up tonight and lose anyways. Again, 50% chance, or even lower (if austin somehow has a working TARDIS)
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Gonzaw, the only person's word that kita has to obtain the TARDIS at some point in the game in order to win is his. Maybe all his role pm told him is: The Doctor's TARDIS exists in this game and if you obtain it and hold it for half a cycle, you become a vet." I think we should take the TARDIS win condition with a grain of salt. The only thing we can look at is his play. Was he playing like a standard survivor or was he playing like an anti-town survivor?
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So yeah, after thinking it a little bit through based on that I think we should lynch austin instead, Xfire.
On top of the setup balance/talk shit, kita's actions seem..."weird" if he's SK or stuff like that.
Generally SKs are either super pro-town (but are bulletproof), or are lurky bastards (if they aren't....or even if they are). You don't see a SK and shit being the center of attention, making plans with TARDIS, then siding with other factions, then backstabbing those factions, etc.
If he's traitor as well his actions before Dandel was shot on D2 don't make much sense, he seemed convinced austin was scum and if he was traitor there would be no reason whatsoever to even make a case on him or shit like that. Although if he DOES have that role it would be difficult for him to DO ANYTHING so maybe he would take the risk with that I dunno.
Before that he went against MZ, geript, austin, almost outed ALL of them with his last-minute shot, and kept going against them. Seems sloppy play if you are traitor. Granted maybe his reads sucked and thought Sk8+Xfire+Snb was the scumteam and austin+geript+MZ were all town or some shit I dunno.
His actions after the D2 Dandel shot would make sense if he was traitor though.
If you shift some parts of the story I guess you could make a believable story about him being traitor with bad reads on D1 desperate to gain the TARDIS, then going against austin and CO later to avoid dying on D2, then after figuring out all scum fully playing for them.....but yeah you can do the same if he's SK and the same if he's pro-town 3P so I won't even bother
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On July 03 2013 03:42 Crossfire99 wrote:
Gonzaw, the only person's word that kita has to obtain the TARDIS at some point in the game in order to win is his. Maybe all his role pm told him is: The Doctor's TARDIS exists in this game and if you obtain it and hold it for half a cycle, you become a vet." I think we should take the TARDIS win condition with a grain of salt. The only thing we can look at is his play. Was he playing like a standard survivor or was he playing like an anti-town survivor?
It makes no sense for him as SK/traitor to claim in-thread to get the TARDIS and do stuff like that (even if he did it for the TARDIS protection, if he uses it to survive a shot it gets randomly distributed to someone else and he has no protection for the rest of the game most likely)
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Oh, gonzaw, I think I also have more than a 50% chance to win the WIFOM game tonight. I'd put my odds at say 75%. I figured some stuff out that I can't reveal because I shouldn't mention it in thread in case we go there tonight. Don't say anything in thread if you figure it out.
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Gonzaw, why the wording in the OP, and why can 3Ps be town/anti-town if the only 3P is just a survivor.
Why does he not post his logs with geript and shoot me on D3 if just a survivor?
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Austin, why don't you copy and paste your entire qt here, since that seems to be legal because you and kita have been doing it nonstop lol.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zNxlnFg.png)
