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Also, what happens when you look at Z-Boson's Tunkeg stances? Hilarity ensues:
1) Finds Tunkeg town for martyr post
Tunkeg is most likely town. Much to my frustration, I feel I was wrong about him. I see no reason for him to go ahead and give away his scum-buddy (maybe two of them, if I'm right about bugs) in his death reads.
2) Asks me about Tunkeg, AGREES with me about Tunkeg:
On December 13 2012 11:51 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 10:17 Hapahauli wrote:
Between Bluelightz and Tunkeg for me atm. Tunkeg's martyr post doesn't look too hot right now given WBG's flip. Hapa, can you elaborate? Why do you think that Tunkeg looks worse now that WBG has flipped?
On December 13 2012 12:31 Z-BosoN wrote:
Yea I'll have to reassess Tunkeg
I really thought him to be scum day 1 and thought he might be town since he included Adam as scum in his lists, but then again, that might not mean much, because Adam was pretty likely to get lynched when Tunkeg martyred.
I'm off to sleep, Gnight
3) Yep, fuck that town read, I want to lynch Tunkeg
On December 14 2012 14:29 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 09:53 Djodref wrote:On December 14 2012 02:27 Z-BosoN wrote:@DjodrefYou bring an interesting point regarding Tunkeg's "shying away" from Palmar. It's additional fluff for him not to actually scumhunt. I don't understand this passage, though, where you are calling it a scumslip: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=69#1361Calling people dumb like this (reference to potential jailkeepers) is a scumslip. You call town players dumb and bad, mafia players are just mafia players  Can you elaborate? @ Z-BosonOn December 13 2012 00:36 Tunkeg wrote:On December 13 2012 00:32 Clarity_nl wrote:
Directing the jailkeeper when his target is "so obvious only a retard would not" is dumb and useless and throwing WIFOM in the air for no reason. If the target is so obvious why are you even saying it? Well, there are some seriously dumb people playing this game. If they happened to roll jk they need to be told what to do. For me, this totally could be a scumslip. Who he is talking about ? How does he know who is actually dumb (potential jks) and who is just playing dumb on purpose (potential mafia players) ? It could be easily explained if he had extra info on players alignment, if he is mafia for example. Honestly, I wouldn't have worried so much about this post if Tunkeg hadn't totally shied away from Palmar when he started to ask questions about it. I could totally see a town player post like this but his reaction feels forced. On December 13 2012 00:45 Tunkeg wrote:On December 13 2012 00:40 Palmar wrote:On December 13 2012 00:36 Tunkeg wrote:On December 13 2012 00:32 Clarity_nl wrote:
Directing the jailkeeper when his target is "so obvious only a retard would not" is dumb and useless and throwing WIFOM in the air for no reason. If the target is so obvious why are you even saying it? Well, there are some seriously dumb people playing this game. If they happend to roll jk they need to be told what to do. Please list the people dumb enough. Nah, its the same people I have called dumb earlier. Maybe they haven't noticed or forgot. Don't want to insult them more, they might just not do as told to spite me. Like, seriously, what the fuck is that kind of line of thinking ? Why the JK would like to listen to Tunkeg at the first place ? Why would he be emotional ? And now I'm not going to speculate because I have learned from my previous games that this will almost always be futile, especially when we are still in day 2. Now I see what you mean. It makes a lot of sense, and it goes along with the fact that I feel Tunkeg seems waaaay too certain of his reads this game. Btw, corrected your post ^^ I'll revert back to my original thoughts on Tunkeg. I to this day have not gotten over on how he ignored a case I made on a "suspicion" he had. ##Vote TunkegAlso
4) "Guys, I know it's right before the lynch, but I want to make sure that you know I have reasons for voting Tunkeg even though everyone already is voting him."
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On December 23 2012 12:25 Z-BosoN wrote:Hapa, your case is extremely weak and reeks of desperation. I didn't give a town read day one? Is that why I'm scum? You're probably comparing that to my play on mario which got me lynched. Well, compare that to my whopping ONE town read in liquid city: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=371260&user=28495 (which a fairly obvious one on shady sands). And my ZERO town reads in XXVIII: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=370487I skimmed over these, but I think the count is right, you are free to check. Counting just day one of course. I usually like to give my thoughts on after we gain solid information. On the VE lynch, why are you lying? The deadline is @10:00 in the forum time. I made the vote one hour and 15 minutes before the deadline, because that's when I had to go. I didn't talk to VE because VE has been a dick ever since Liquid City. On Chronotrigger, note that even in the scum qt we didn't talk. Unless of course, you are going to use this as a tell and find my other teammate, who I also didn't talk to? Or is it because in your scummy I randomly chose VE? Pssht. Dealing with that second rebuttal post of yours in a sec
You're totes right about the 1h 15min thing. However it still stands that you went from "I'm down with a lynch" to "ehhhh I want to park my vote on jay" to "fuck that! Lynch VE that fucker!"... all when it was convenient for you to do so.
You didn't pursue your read on Vivax despite explicitly calling him scum, in favor of "being down with a VE lynch"
Then, when VE claimed, you were in super-doubt-mode and wanted to leave a vote on Jay.
Then when people didn't move their vote from VE, "LOL HE'S SCUM I'm sure!"
It's not a consistent attitude, and you fail-bussed each other.
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On December 23 2012 12:21 Hapahauli wrote:Oh man that case on me is a lot less impressive than it first looked. Like it's actually shockingly bad out of what I'd expect from a town Z-Bo.
1) Hapa's Town Reads (particularly the one on Tunkeg) Firstly, you say that I shouldn't have initially found Tunkeg town because I disagreed with some of his martyr reads. This is absurd. Whether or not a player is correct has nothing to do with whether they're scum or not. Secondly, you think my switch on Tunkeg is scummy because I "used" WBG's blue-flip. This is both faulty logic and a misrepresentation. I eventually switched to Tunkeg because he was too sure of himself THROUGHOUT his filter on MULTIPLE subjects: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=77#1536Also, I did find Tunkeg being "too sure" on his WBG read as scummy. Several players in the game (when Tunkeg posted his "martyr" thing) thought WBG was scum. It's really easy for scum to go "oh this guy is 100% scum I'm sure of it." Scum are confident because they know their objectives, and I thought a townie would be less-confident about such a read. I was clearly wrong.
You changed your views on tunkeg from leaning town to "not looking too hot" because WBG flipped blue. There is no misinterpretation in your words here:
On December 13 2012 10:17 Hapahauli wrote:
Between Bluelightz and Tunkeg for me atm. Tunkeg's martyr post doesn't look too hot right now given WBG's flip.
The fact of the matter is, that when I asked you to justify it, you answered with: the problem is his certainty.
Note, however, that Tunkeg already was certain on WBG being scum before WBG's flip. You didn't use that heuristic to attack Tunkeg at any point in time before WBG's flip.
That post you quoted is just you pushing him and consolidating him for other reasons than what was your original reaction to WBG flipping. If your whole deal is with certainty, how does WBG's flip change anything? You realized this later, but note that when I prodded you, you STILL showed this thought process:
On December 13 2012 11:53 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 11:51 Z-BosoN wrote:On December 13 2012 10:17 Hapahauli wrote:
Between Bluelightz and Tunkeg for me atm. Tunkeg's martyr post doesn't look too hot right now given WBG's flip. Hapa, can you elaborate? Why do you think that Tunkeg looks worse now that WBG has flipped? Part of the reason I was leaning town on him was because I agreed with his read on WBG (martyr post). Since it was wrong though, there's not much else in that post of substance. Some obvious town reads, obvious scum read in Adam, seemingly easy case on Jay... it looks far less townie than it first appeared to me.
So, it's not a misrepresentation. You supposedly "overlooked" his certainty earlier in favor of you agreeing with him on Bugs. Then, only when you felt that you could mislynch him, you brought it up.
2) Lack of Interest
Funny enough, this isn't at all about my lack of interest, but more about my Tunkeg read. But anyway, my "lack of interest" was on display in Chrono Trigger Mafia as well. I was town. I was super-engaged in Mario Mini. I was scum.
I've been in much of a different mood this game. I've been far less "involved" due to me being busy. That certainly reflects in my gameplay, but it's not allignment indicative.
Tunkeg thing is the biggest example I have. I also cited the difference in which you pursue your reads in GSL and in here, with regards to me..
I've been less involved in games so I know what you mean but
posts such as these, for instance:
On December 12 2012 17:35 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 17:32 Tunkeg wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 12 2012 17:05 Hapahauli wrote:All caught up! Here's the read dump:
Town d00dsThrawn - Duh. debears - Duh. Djodref - This one probably needs some 'splainin. The shit that he pulled at the end of the Day 1 lynch in no sane way came from a scum player. He was really enthralled with this idea of starting a last-minute wagon on a player when it was clear that adam would be getting lynched. I can't see hypothetical scum Djo pulling stuff like this, since he would have known that Adam would flip red. The dynamics of the game suggest that Adam was bussed by scum in the later hours. Djodref's play is far too attention-whoring and suicidal to be from scum. In addition, there are posts like this... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=13#260...where he displays a really convoluted thought process that I attribute more to town than scum. Palmar - He's definitely capable of bussing his own, but he didn't even make an attempt to go for another target but Adam. Much different from what I saw of his scum-play in Rockband Mini anywho. Clarity - His posts just seem pretty townie overall. Solid logic, really patient and well-thought out reads. Palmar's video goes through his early-game pretty well. And there are gems like this: Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 09:57 Clarity_nl wrote:
WHAT THE FUCK I GIVE UP FUCK YOU
HE MADE THE READS WITHOUT KNOWING HIS ALIGNMENT, HOW CAN HIS READS THAT HE MADE BEFORE READING HIS PM BE ALIGNMENT INDICATIVE Vivax - I explained my read on Vivax earlier... Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 14:36 Hapahauli wrote:Around page 24 - leaning town on Vivax in spite of Z-Bo's case for two reasons. 1) Adam posts a case on Vivax shortly after dropping his "confrontation" with debears: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=24#463Vivax is under some fire already, and it would be a really strange play for Adam to go after a hypothetical scumbuddy like this when there were plenty of other targets to chose from at this point in the game (Tunkeg, Jay, etc). Unless all these guys are scum, the Vivax choice makes very little sense if Vivax is scum. 2) He posted a dry-erase board picture of an "analysis web" of the Thrawn "incident" earlier in the game. That says try-hard townie to me. His voting actions are a bit weird (being convinced to vote Adam by Grush is quite sketch), but I can see a town thought-process of just wanting to not no-lynch. marv - Marv voting Adam early (2nd?) doesn't strike me as a scum move. Marv is capable of bussing plays, but a D1 bus of adam with plenty of other lynch options seems like a bit of a stretch. A possibility for sure, but not too likely methinks. green - He hasn't done much, but his vote on Adam gave me a town feel. Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 07:39 VisceraEyes wrote:
##Unvote
##Vote: Adam
Baaaaaaahhhhh. He doesn't attempt to glorify it or justify it - he's candid about the whole thing, and that strikes me as town.
Null ReadsJay - He seems like a pretty easy mislynch as town in his other games. He's not done much allignment-indicative in my eyes. Maaaaybe some townie points for being the hammer-vote on Adam, but that's about it. Tunkeg - Another wishy-washy player from what I've seen of his meta. I do like his "martyr" post quite a bit, because based on his general "mentality" as a player, I feel it's not a type of post that a player like him would make as a scum. Though I haven't seen a scum-game that he's played, which is why I'm a bit more hesitant. Maybe slightly townie, but nothing like the guys above. Grush - He's been on Adam from the get-go, and I'm unsure what to think of it. That would be a town-tell for most players, but this is Grush, and part of me thinks that he has a little extra info. Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 06:25 grush57 wrote:
That's pretty reasonable. I'm a bit cautious of Bluelightz because he is a vet. Jay strikes me as a foolish townie and Tunk is probably a noobie. I want to vote Adam because he is reminding me of his scum play. Like this post... seems... too... reasonable for Grush? This is probably crazy on my part, but having seen him play Mafia LVII, his nonsensical town play there is pretty fresh in my mind. Z-Boson - His play is not alignment indicative so far. He's capable of bombing the big cases as town or scum. What will be telling in the future is if he can maintain good logic in making those cases.
ScumreadsBluelightz - I realize he's lynch bait (and I tunnel'd him to death when he was town in Rockband), but in this game, I find his play lines up real neat with a scum agenda. In his opening post, he spreads suspicion on four different players: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=12#238He posts a bunch after that, but never follows up on any of the suspicions he pushed in that thread. Notably, he never pushes the guy whom he put his vote on (jay). His vote on Adam also feels like a bus vote, a nice little agreeable and uncontroversial vote when the bandwagon is gaining steam. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=33#648WBG - I get very scared when a vet gives me no reason to think he's town, and this seems to be the case with WBG. He has a case on a "lynch-bait" player in Tunkeg, but that's about it. His play is very "clean," and as the leader of one of the main counter-wagons to the Adam lynch (and given that I have no reason to think Tunkeg is scum at this point), I'm inclined to think WBG is scum. WTF do you know about my meta? Have me and you ever played a game? Have you read through my games after being replaced in (while you just now have been able to read up on this game)? Also you say my meta is wishy washy, lol. Are you sure you haven't skimmed through the scum QT and have misunderstood what they wrote about my meta? Yes I skimmed a couple of your games. Whaddya think I"ve been doing for the last few hours?
Seems like you trying to pass off as though you are invested. I mean, you are invested enough to spend the last few hours reading TUnkeg's filter to confirm a meta read, but not enough to push your reads? I dunno man...
3) My "Bus" of VE You are LYING Z-BosonShow nested quote +On December 15 2012 10:18 Hapahauli wrote:On December 15 2012 10:08 jaybrundage wrote:
Time to vote Palmar? Not time to vote Palmar.
I'll have to look between jay, VE, BL, and Z-Bo for the next scummer. I was planning to post question VE about one of his posts if Tunkeg flipped red. That sadly didn't happen, but the post seems relevant regardless: On December 14 2012 16:21 VisceraEyes wrote:
After looking at Tunkeg's filter, it's mostly blah. Not even in a bad way or good way...just blah. The only thing I don't like about his filter is nicely summed up in Hapa's post on the guy - his periods of absolute certainty that he shouldn't have if he's town.
His "martyr reads" and Adam's reads ended up being strikingly similar, but Tunkeg's came first and Adam flipped scum.
He MIGHT be scum, but I'm not really interested in lynching him today. I prefer to see ZBoson flip before making a final judgement call on Tunkeg. If I can't get a ZBoson lynch and Tunkeg is the only other alternative however, I would vote for Tunkeg. The bolded is a pretty strong statement. I'm not sure if it's just poor wording or not, but he seems to be putting some heavy suspicion on Tunkeg, then dancing around the issue in favor of Z-Bo. This is my question to VE. You completely ignored it and quoted a different post. What gives?
Well you see, that isn't a question, that is a statement. In your answer to marv, you said it was a question, and the one I quoted is the only question I found, and VE in fact didn't answer said question, so I thought it was what you were referring to.
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Ahhh the "certainty" heuristic on Tunkeg. Part of the reason I initially read him as town as because I was pretty convinced that WBG was scum. Guy was pushing the same case as me, and I didn't give his "certainty" much thought. When WBG flipped, the "certainty" with which Tunkeg was pushing WBG looked pretty bad in my eyes.
As for "investment", I was very invested in the early game. My investment shortly thereafter fell off a cliff when a) finals week started and b) other games that need-not-be-mentioned started.
As for "meta read" on Tunkeg, my "meta reads" generally involve skimming a player's past games for a couple of minutes to determine a "feel" for how they play. Not that difficult or time-consuming. Seems to be fairly accurate in retrospect though.
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Hmmm you actually do have a point that you don't give town-reads in your town-games period. Funnily enough, the last time I've seen you give regular town reads was CT Mafia (where you were scum). Hell 2 posts into our fight and this is starting to feel like our "fight" in GSL III already.
Hmmmmmmmmm. But then who would the other two scum be...
Rather than OMGUS each other Z-Bo, would you like to bounce off reads about the other three candidates?
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What are your opinions on my assessment of Marv?
On December 23 2012 10:28 Hapahauli wrote:After thinking about it some, I'm 99% sure that marv is town. Firstly, his veteran claim is very risky from a scum perspective. There's a high chance that there are 4 blues in this game. Given that he claimed veteran, he would risk a lot of pressure on himself had a 5th blue counterclaimed. No one has done so, and the risk/reward of such a fake-claim suggests that Marv is town. In addition, there are too many easy opportunities he has turned down to be scum. He could have very easily pushed the BL lynch and come out fine from it. In addition, of all the players he seemed the most concerned about finding out Djo's alignment and objectively considering things. Finally, he's been the most hesitant to jump on my lynch out of the players. As a last point, I'm coming away from his interaction with Tunkeg (page 11 of his filter) as pretty authentic: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953&user=140487¤tpage=11I'm not sure why marv is alive right now, but his play shows far too much correlation with his town play (and not nearly enough with his scum-play) for him to be scum.
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On December 23 2012 12:28 Hapahauli wrote:Also, what happens when you look at Z-Boson's Tunkeg stances? Hilarity ensues: 1) Finds Tunkeg town for martyr post Show nested quote +Tunkeg is most likely town. Much to my frustration, I feel I was wrong about him. I see no reason for him to go ahead and give away his scum-buddy (maybe two of them, if I'm right about bugs) in his death reads.
This is the only part I made a townread on him. I realized that the reasoning for me to think he was town was completely stupid. This was at a time where I thought bugs was scum as well. When bugs flipped, he'd only given away an obvious scumread, so my argument didn't really make much sense.
2) Asks me about Tunkeg, AGREES with me about Tunkeg: Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 11:51 Z-BosoN wrote:On December 13 2012 10:17 Hapahauli wrote:
Between Bluelightz and Tunkeg for me atm. Tunkeg's martyr post doesn't look too hot right now given WBG's flip. Hapa, can you elaborate? Why do you think that Tunkeg looks worse now that WBG has flipped? Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 12:31 Z-BosoN wrote:
Yea I'll have to reassess Tunkeg
I really thought him to be scum day 1 and thought he might be town since he included Adam as scum in his lists, but then again, that might not mean much, because Adam was pretty likely to get lynched when Tunkeg martyred.
I'm off to sleep, Gnight
Here's where I explain why my town read was whack, actually. If you agree with this explanation, great, stop cherrypicking. If not, let me know why, I'd really like to know.
I'll have to reassess because I agreed with you on how too certain Tunkeg was. It's not like I'm pissing on you because you were trying to mislynch him, but rather because you changed your criteria to make it convenient for you, in a rather suspicious and non-townie way.
3) Yep, fuck that town read, I want to lynch Tunkeg Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 14:29 Z-BosoN wrote:On December 14 2012 09:53 Djodref wrote:On December 14 2012 02:27 Z-BosoN wrote:@DjodrefYou bring an interesting point regarding Tunkeg's "shying away" from Palmar. It's additional fluff for him not to actually scumhunt. I don't understand this passage, though, where you are calling it a scumslip: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=69#1361Calling people dumb like this (reference to potential jailkeepers) is a scumslip. You call town players dumb and bad, mafia players are just mafia players Can you elaborate? @ Z-BosonOn December 13 2012 00:36 Tunkeg wrote:On December 13 2012 00:32 Clarity_nl wrote:
Directing the jailkeeper when his target is "so obvious only a retard would not" is dumb and useless and throwing WIFOM in the air for no reason. If the target is so obvious why are you even saying it? Well, there are some seriously dumb people playing this game. If they happened to roll jk they need to be told what to do. For me, this totally could be a scumslip. Who he is talking about ? How does he know who is actually dumb (potential jks) and who is just playing dumb on purpose (potential mafia players) ? It could be easily explained if he had extra info on players alignment, if he is mafia for example. Honestly, I wouldn't have worried so much about this post if Tunkeg hadn't totally shied away from Palmar when he started to ask questions about it. I could totally see a town player post like this but his reaction feels forced. On December 13 2012 00:45 Tunkeg wrote:On December 13 2012 00:40 Palmar wrote:On December 13 2012 00:36 Tunkeg wrote:On December 13 2012 00:32 Clarity_nl wrote:
Directing the jailkeeper when his target is "so obvious only a retard would not" is dumb and useless and throwing WIFOM in the air for no reason. If the target is so obvious why are you even saying it? Well, there are some seriously dumb people playing this game. If they happend to roll jk they need to be told what to do. Please list the people dumb enough. Nah, its the same people I have called dumb earlier. Maybe they haven't noticed or forgot. Don't want to insult them more, they might just not do as told to spite me. Like, seriously, what the fuck is that kind of line of thinking ? Why the JK would like to listen to Tunkeg at the first place ? Why would he be emotional ? And now I'm not going to speculate because I have learned from my previous games that this will almost always be futile, especially when we are still in day 2. Now I see what you mean. It makes a lot of sense, and it goes along with the fact that I feel Tunkeg seems waaaay too certain of his reads this game. Btw, corrected your post ^^ I'll revert back to my original thoughts on Tunkeg. I to this day have not gotten over on how he ignored a case I made on a "suspicion" he had. ##Vote TunkegAlso
Yea, I thought about how my town read on him was stupid, and reverted back to my case I made on day one, which I found, and still find, to be decent.
4) "Guys, I know it's right before the lynch, but I want to make sure that you know I have reasons for voting Tunkeg even though everyone already is voting him."
I had already given my own reasons for voting him (my day 1 case). This is me being careful and trying to lynch correctly. Why would I make this post as scum?? So people don't go being angry at me for not justifying my vote, even though I'd already done that? Please
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Sowwy I be like triple-sniping you and all 'dat
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My secondary theory regarding the scumteam was that Adam was bussed on D1. Given VE's vote on Adam, mafia going all-out to bus Adam seems like a reasonable and coherent D1 strategy.
I can see GRush being scum in this manner, because some of his D1 posts are almost... prophetic for a player of his caliber:
On December 12 2012 06:25 grush57 wrote:
That's pretty reasonable. I'm a bit cautious of Bluelightz because he is a vet. Jay strikes me as a foolish townie and Tunk is probably a noobie. I want to vote Adam because he is reminding me of his scum play.
I be like dang.
Le probleme with this is that I have such a hard time seeing Marv as scum. Also, Munk-E dropped a pretty late vote on Adam as well, and well... I'm not scum *shrug*
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On December 23 2012 12:32 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 12:25 Z-BosoN wrote:Hapa, your case is extremely weak and reeks of desperation. I didn't give a town read day one? Is that why I'm scum? You're probably comparing that to my play on mario which got me lynched. Well, compare that to my whopping ONE town read in liquid city: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=371260&user=28495 (which a fairly obvious one on shady sands). And my ZERO town reads in XXVIII: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=370487I skimmed over these, but I think the count is right, you are free to check. Counting just day one of course. I usually like to give my thoughts on after we gain solid information. On the VE lynch, why are you lying? The deadline is @10:00 in the forum time. I made the vote one hour and 15 minutes before the deadline, because that's when I had to go. I didn't talk to VE because VE has been a dick ever since Liquid City. On Chronotrigger, note that even in the scum qt we didn't talk. Unless of course, you are going to use this as a tell and find my other teammate, who I also didn't talk to? Or is it because in your scummy I randomly chose VE? Pssht. Dealing with that second rebuttal post of yours in a sec You're totes right about the 1h 15min thing. However it still stands that you went from "I'm down with a lynch" to "ehhhh I want to park my vote on jay" to "fuck that! Lynch VE that fucker!"... all when it was convenient for you to do so. You didn't pursue your read on Vivax despite explicitly calling him scum, in favor of "being down with a VE lynch" Then, when VE claimed, you were in super-doubt-mode and wanted to leave a vote on Jay. Then when people didn't move their vote from VE, "LOL HE'S SCUM I'm sure!" It's not a consistent attitude, and you fail-bussed each other.
I had to leave and needed to place my vote. I said I wanted to place my vote on Jay, and then decided to actually read into VE's filter (note the time difference between the post I mention Jay and the one I consolidate on VE) and decided to go through and lynch him. Also, I didn't say this at the time, and this was a very storng part of my decision, but I thought vivax was cop because of how strongly he opposed the lynch, when earlier in the same day he had been calling VE town (I also made a small reference to this somewhere in there).
ANYWAYS. Answering your latest posts.
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I mean I suppose I COULD find marv scum in spite of his vet claim.
Like his claim was pretty late today. Maybe he just saw that no-one claimed, and assumed it was safe (and therefore just claimed). Also, aside from his early vote on Adam, he hasn't been very impressive this game in the scum-hunting department. His two major contributions to this game in recent memory are him a) lynching Tunkeg and b) establishing Djo as town.
However, I still find it very difficult to rationalize his level of engagement (this late in the game) from a scum perspective. He's been by far one of the most active players in the game and displays a level-headedness that I associate with town-marv.
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As for Djo, I keep looking at his filter and seeing townie in him. Given that VE bussed Adam, it should have been really really clear to the scumteam not to resist the Adam lynch. Yet then Djo goes and does the exact opposite by changing votes between Jay and Tunkeg.... eh I can't see it.
Djo is capable of playing a really engaged scum-game...
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381440&user=284165
But even so, his filter above (Mario Mini) was almost devoid of scumhunting. His cases this game seem remarkably genuine.
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I mean we could say that the scumteam had really poor communication and that Djo was largely acting on his own, but even then, given that two in the group of us are scum and two of us have lasted until the endgame, communication can't have been that much of an issue, even in the early game.
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So strategically speaking, I keep coming back to a scumteam of Grush//Marv with an outside chance of you (Z-Boson). Hopefully you can start posting more so I can verify that.
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On December 23 2012 12:55 Hapahauli wrote:What are your opinions on my assessment of Marv? Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 10:28 Hapahauli wrote:After thinking about it some, I'm 99% sure that marv is town. Firstly, his veteran claim is very risky from a scum perspective. There's a high chance that there are 4 blues in this game. Given that he claimed veteran, he would risk a lot of pressure on himself had a 5th blue counterclaimed. No one has done so, and the risk/reward of such a fake-claim suggests that Marv is town. In addition, there are too many easy opportunities he has turned down to be scum. He could have very easily pushed the BL lynch and come out fine from it. In addition, of all the players he seemed the most concerned about finding out Djo's alignment and objectively considering things. Finally, he's been the most hesitant to jump on my lynch out of the players. As a last point, I'm coming away from his interaction with Tunkeg (page 11 of his filter) as pretty authentic: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953&user=140487¤tpage=11I'm not sure why marv is alive right now, but his play shows far too much correlation with his town play (and not nearly enough with his scum-play) for him to be scum.
I don't agree with how risky it is to claim veteran. It's a perfectly reasonable maneuver for him to justify why he's alive in mylo, if he is scum.
I agree with how much more invested he is in this game in comparison to GSL, but I'm not going with a 99%.
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Yea I grabbed a snack. Hang in there.
I'd like to know more of your town read on Djo. Is it still that day one stuff and his activity when being pressured?
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See the investment is tripping me up a bit. Because I've seen three of his scumgames:
Normal Mini III
GSL III
Deathnote Mini
In all three of these games, his activity and engagement is nowhere near what he's displaying this game. Normal Mini III is the closest comparison, but when the town's activity dies down towards the end, Marv is barely posting by the end.
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On December 23 2012 13:36 Z-BosoN wrote:
Yea I grabbed a snack. Hang in there.
I'd like to know more of your town read on Djo. Is it still that day one stuff and his activity when being pressured?
For two reasons:
1) His actions aren't coherent with a mafia "strategy." VE bussed Adam. Scum should have known that Adam was going down. Yet Djo goes and tries to last-minute voteswitch on both tunkeg and jay at the lynch deadline... I can't see the scum-mentality in that, especially since the mafia QT should have been on "BUS ALERT!"
2) His activity when pressured was absurd. He was bombing cases left and right. Such an insane amount of effort in scumhunting that I can only attribute to a townie.
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Muze with me on Djo a bit. You were playing with him in Mario Mini - you see any similarities/differences to that? He seems to me like 10000x more concerned with scumhunting in this game.
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On December 23 2012 13:31 Hapahauli wrote:
I mean we could say that the scumteam had really poor communication and that Djo was largely acting on his own, but even then, given that two in the group of us are scum and two of us have lasted until the endgame, communication can't have been that much of an issue, even in the early game.
Well Adam was rather quiet, VE was rather quiet. Djo does seem much more interested here, but he's a capable player imo. However, there's a ton of stuff that's weird in his filter, so I really hesitate to pass it off so easily to activity.
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EPT
