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11589 Posts
On December 09 2012 03:54 Arnarnion wrote:Rad, it was a poor lapse in judgment, I saw my friend playing this game and thought that it looked like fun. And after watching a bit of the last newbie game, I figured I would be able to pick it up a little easier than it turns out that I could. With regards to jidolboy, I don't really know, he hasn't offered a lot of to the conversation (of which I am also guilty) and his recurring quick response time to requests of his presence looks bad given how little he says. But I also think that these are more examples of an uncomfortable newb player than scum, because wouldn't scum be vocal if attention was being brought to their scumminess and be trying to sway the towns opinion away from looking at them? I think he's just new and uncomfortable but I could be wrong. I really find Axle a confusing influence on discussion in the game, I really can't say whether or not he's scum, and I think if no consensus can be reached on who is scum today, that he should be the one to go. Because honestly, he says a lot without stimulating much clearly useful discussion to finding scum. I would like some explanation on why everyone seems so comfortable calling Yamato town at this point, though. Given his behavior of solely providing one read all of D1 and saying that we were all delusional for wanting to play with Axle, it seems strange that he would abandon that viewpoint so quickly at the beginning of N1 and then finally start giving his reads on players that weren't Axle. In fact, if you look at his reasoning for voting Rad: Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 15:39 yamato77 wrote:On December 08 2012 15:33 Kickstart wrote:
Yeah its the only logical conclusion I can come to on Rad, that he is scum. I think it is the only logical conclusion anyone can come to ;/ Yeah all my reads on the lurkers are town, even though they all show very little interest in the game. Pressure on them goes basically nowhere, either, because they don't seem dodgy or uncooperative. Axle, although sometimes incomprehensible, seems to be trying to solve the game and give us information to work with so he's probably town. You're basically confirmed town. So I guess Rad is definitely the scummiest. ##Vote Rad He only decides to pick Rad because of a feeble process of elimination, and he does not provide with us why he thinks Rad is scum, only that every one else probably isn't, and pretty much sheeps Kicks vote. Does anyone else feel like this is somewhat suspicious? Why is only now that he is trying to push anything besides the easiest scum choice? I find this really fishy, and think it reads as scum 2 trying to pull in the slack that comes from being the only scum left. So that is where my vote is going ##Vote: Yamato77. I think that the push on Rad is an easy vote because he got caught on the wrong side of the flip and that voting him is an easy thing for scum to capitalize on.
Yeah that is not the only reason I voted for Rad. You may want to reread the thread.
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@jidolboy
Ya. If I PMed you a scum read then I would have included everyone
So you'd have listed your reads on everyone? Why would you have told me (who you thought was scum) and not everyone else?
Show nested quote +f you piggybacked oats back then, don't ya think that might be a little bit too obvious? O.o How explain.
If you're oats's scum partner, it would make your association too obvious if you were to piggy back him.
Show nested quote +
So if everyone was voting yamato right now, would my name be replaced with his, since you seem to vote based on other people's votes? Which person in this game has the most power over your vote right now, since you're open to be told what to do?
I've already said Show nested quote +
You may call me a sheep but if someone more open-minded opinion on a person on my radar then I agree with him, and it seems everyone I agreed to had better knowledge than me
Sooo, that's a yes? I was asking you to confirm or deny my statement, not copy/paste what you've already said. I'm trying to get you to clarify yourself. (your statements are coming across confusing, for example, the one you quoted is hard to understand)
And of course I care who gets lynched. If I didn't, then I would have voted for Axlegrease when 2 people had already voted for him in D2
As scum, you'd still need to make a smart play. Who has a better chance of being lynched today, me or Axle? (hint: it's me)
I think it's somewhat late to step it up during Day D2 since it seems votes are fixed on to you.
You're one of those votes. Any reason you're happy not being a big deal in my lynch? You just want to sheep on the more vocal people so they take the fall after my mislynch, all the while giving no reasoning other than "yeah, he's totally scummy, I've thought that the entire game"?
On December 09 2012 04:13 jidolboy wrote:
Also
Care to explain why you think Sylencia is more of a town other than the reason "He provided list of reasons"?
It seems you are targeting us easy lurkers to get lynched instead of active players for some reason
Sylencia has been putting himself out there, making clear reads, has a transparent opinion on the situation, didn't immediately jump on the easy target (I'm the easy target jidolboy, not you), appears to be thinking about things from a town perspective. These are all things that do not relate to my read on you.
On December 09 2012 04:20 jidolboy wrote:Show nested quote +If I decide to vote jidolboy or arn, I will back my vote up with sufficient reasoning I am still waiting for sufficient reasoning. I think it will be good idea to post your evidence before you get lynched. So the town will have greater idea who the scum is if we mislynched you
You're "still waiting for sufficient reasoning" - you say it like you've said it before, and you're getting impatient, as though I've avoided your question. Have I voted for you?
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So you'd have listed your reads on everyone? Why would you have told me (who you thought was scum) and not everyone else?
When did I say I was going to give it ONLY to you? I was willing to share it to everyone who was interested. Plus the reason I did not post it was because they were what others had said thus it can cause confusion in the thread
If you're oats's scum partner, it would make your association too obvious if you were to piggy back him.
So if you think your scum partner is in trouble, do you think voting against him will be a better option? Doesn't make sense to me.
Sooo, that's a yes? I was asking you to confirm or deny my statement, not copy/paste what you've already said. I'm trying to get you to clarify yourself. (your statements are coming across confusing, for example, the one you quoted is hard to understand)
Oh sorry. Yes. I'm a sheep when it comes to voting. BUT, that's only when it's person I have suspicion on. For example, before voting, I had already mentioned I wasn't sure about Oats then later voted against him by piggy backing CC
As scum, you'd still need to make a smart play. Who has a better chance of being lynched today, me or Axle? (hint: it's me)
You are correct about this one. You had bigger chance because of your previous interaction with Oats on D1
Sylencia has been putting himself out there, making clear reads, has a transparent opinion on the situation, didn't immediately jump on the easy target (I'm the easy target jidolboy, not you), appears to be thinking about things from a town perspective. These are all things that do not relate to my read on you.
I don't see any clear read on Sylencia for voting against me. His reason is
All I've seen him do is piggyback on the vote and provided nothing else to go off. Literally all I've read from his posts are a few answers from the start of day 1, his vote, and then a few comments saying he's here. And yet no one actually brought up a point against him being a lurker, so he doesn't feel any need to come forward yet.
That's basically saying, oh he's been a suspicious since D1 so we should lynch him.
On the other hand, it's true even though I might not have posted something significant, I piggybacked Kick and CC because I shared same opinion with them therefore his points were same as my points thus repeating same points were useless
You're "still waiting for sufficient reasoning" - you say it like you've said it before, and you're getting impatient, as though I've avoided your question. Have I voted for you?
As far as I know, Axle and Kick had questioned you about my suspicion but you did not answer them so I questioned you again. I only asked you again because I truly care about this town and wanted you to share your opinion about me before you get lynched.
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@jidolboy
If you're town, this is what you should have been doing all game. Keep it up so town can get a read on you one way or the other.
The reason you're under suspicion, to me at least, is that you've given us no content to judge you on. Activity is good for town, lurking is good for scum. Your votes are pure sheeping (admittedly), so how are we to know that you're town sheeping over scum sheeping? If you're on me when I flip town, how are people supposed to judge your decision to lynch me if your only vocal reasoning was based on sheeping? If town, you might become the next easy lynch for scum to push (or town to push, scum might not even have to do anything).
When did I say I was going to give it ONLY to you? I was willing to share it to everyone who was interested. Plus the reason I did not post it was because they were what others had said thus it can cause confusion in the thread
Lists can be considered scummy. I don't personally think so (see my lists in previous games), but we saw someone like CC does. I think it really depends on the content of the list, and it tends to be a natural sort of thing for a newbie to want to do. At the very least, at least you would have been getting your content out there for others to judge.
So if you think your scum partner is in trouble, do you think voting against him will be a better option? Doesn't make sense to me.
It's called a bus. You throw your scum partner under the bus (i.e. be one of the people who get him lynched) to gain town cred. There's a few people that fit the potential for this to be true, you're one of them. Notice as soon as the lynch happened, only 3 people were under suspicion - myself, yamato, and axle, because we did not vote to lynch him. See how easy it would be for a scum to lurk the game away with the town cred gained from lynching his partner?
Oh sorry. Yes. I'm a sheep when it comes to voting. BUT, that's only when it's person I have suspicion on. For example, before voting, I had already mentioned I wasn't sure about Oats then later voted against him by piggy backing CC
Again, something else we don't have proof on because you never mentioned me before your vote. Lurking bad for town, because now town can't decide if you're scum sheeping or town sheeping.
That's basically saying, oh he's been a suspicious since D1 so we should lynch him.
Talk it out with Sylencia, not me. That will give us more content from both of you. See how it works?
As far as I know, Axle and Kick had questioned you about my suspicion but you did not answer them so I questioned you again. I only asked you again because I truly care about this town and wanted you to share your opinion about me before you get lynched.
Axle asked me a bunch of questions and then went nutso on me before I had a chance to answer them. I've already noted that I was done with him due to that. I don't remember kick asking about you specifically but if I've missed a question he wanted answered, I'd expect him to bring it back up again.
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This bit is the literal truth. I have a really weird scum hunting technique. It is called taking nap, I literally just woke up seeing the text of a series of prophetic posts. They were all early posts. It was a serious doh moment.
There are still details to be sorted out, but first do no harm, appears to me to solve all risks on that front.
On with just this game,
This could have been so so much easier, if only i had had the courage of my convictions from the start. There were so many pressures, ideas and sources of information that I could trust but with so many layers of lies. I had tried every mathematical approach I know, and seemingly even to my self come to a complete standstill. In the end the only thing that is true to the convictions that I cam in through the door with is this.
What has been true every game, I have watched or played.
The feel reads I can trust best are the ones I make very early in the game. I should listen to every other source of information, even the ones that are lies can tell you things, providing you remember that. Of all the pressures and influences which one do I tust? The voice inside my head, the one that is mine. In the end I must trust that because i know what I am 100%.
I must proceed both with caution courage, though First do no harm is the creed that is me, to not simply be a useless twit, I must proceed both with caution courage of my convictions. Which is also what I knew when I came in the door.
On December 05 2012 23:43 AxleGreaser wrote:@Kicks Would you care to comment on these decisions that you made? Lots of questions inside the spoilers. In Kicks case: A thing I will find convincing is emotional plays. In particular (I believe) if he is scum then EARLY ON, he will feel confident, as he has more knowledge than town if he is town then early on he will, be more tentative, probing looking for knowledge and information Thus i will look early on where for the tells will be strongest. Now to see which fits. I really should not do this one, because it is an OMGUS, but it does? It is a risk for me, as I am making case on a point where he voted on me. (meh) + Show Spoiler +On December 04 2012 11:17 Kickstart wrote:
Yamato has it pretty much right. I have a bad habit of going after things which I deem dumb, but dumb doesn't mean scum. Less than 2 hours later. On December 05 2012 13:50 Kickstart wrote:
##AxleGreaser
Because dumb. If you didn't vote because you think I am scum why did you vote? When you are scum you can go after anything you do not understand, as such you will scatter gun these "vote because its dumb tells". They will get you dead fast. I would hope that as town he would not do this. Use your own judgement. If you think he would do that even if town, then it is a null tell. being wrong about what to do when, is one thing, but when it contradicts what you did 1.5 hrs earlier, without you even saying your other reason went away. That is also peculiar, but perhaps also a null tell, do you believe Kicks would do that as even as town? + Show Spoiler +When this happened, which is such justified pressure that is applied and it makes me think Yamato is a bit more town. How does Kicks conclude the opposite? Might it be because he knows * I am town and if I get lynched he can then attack Yamato over it and gain cred? * I am scum and hes trying to protect me? * what Yamato is doing is wrong, and Kicks knows Yamato should know better? * he is sad he voted for me because I am Because dumb? It is because he is [red]scum[red] I cant make another story fit. Can you? yamato77 should pressure me for that, at that time. On December 04 2012 12:40 yamato77 wrote:
EBWOP: Oh, you actually ARE avoiding me, cool.
##Vote AxleGreaser A scum player who already knows what I am may not even know why it was done. Also wont care. Kicks though is not suspicious of me leaving, why not? On December 04 2012 12:45 Kickstart wrote:
##FoS yamato
Badgering people then voting them when they ignore his badgering He didn't badger, I left. Ok so lets assume that just an error and he really believe that Yamoto just gave of scum tell. What does Kicks Do? And why? Time line link hereDoes he wait to see if anything will be said in response to pressure. No Then follow up with more? There is no desire to see if information is now forthcoming. + Show Spoiler +meta + Show Spoiler + (yeah its suck eggs material)
Please note if I am pressuring someone, I usually don't want help.
If you are pressuring someone, I will try not to get involved.
I usually learn just as much or more about the intentions of the person asking the questions as the one answering them.
Instead he immediately emotionally appeals to all around hey come help me lynch this guy? How does he know he has the right guy? And does he even care? On December 04 2012 12:47 Kickstart wrote:
I may be too early to jump the gun on thinking yamato is being scummy, but I haven't liked his incessant policy talk and now he just jumps on someone who he is badgering. Thoughts everyone? Well no he jumped on me for going away, when being questioned. And an hour an half before that I was too dumb to live? I don't think my play got much smarter in between. He then says Thoughts everyone?which AFAIK, is pretty much a scum claim. Scum hunting is focussed process whereby you find out why people do things. Asking for whatever random thoughts other people have, is just going to make noise. Worse it gives scum the opportunity to participate, without having to initiate their own lines of inquiry. Doing that is wanting to work together, make friends, with just anyone at all. Town does not do that. Even a nervous town will be worried about making friends with a scum, and then getting lynched for it. ##unVOTE NoLynch We now in my view have viable D1 lynch based on what I wrote. I am now convinced this is not the town I deserved it has at least 1 scum in it. Don't worry host I still <3 <3 <3. I am nice gentle soul.
To tell you truth in all this confusion, I kind a lost track of where I had been up to the following hard reset will synchronise me with things.
Hey Kick, do you feel Lucky.
##unvote
##VOTE Kicks
everyone else should still be aware, I will still have my eyes on you.
shh no dancing in the streets we have scum to hunt. Celebrations, are for when the hunt is done.
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I am in the process of writing a slightly post that clarifies where I am regarding, the vote on Rad. I would not want the apparent clarity of that read, to create illogical confusion. The game was stalled, I jiggled around a bit. Found someone tunnel so hard into the ground that if I was wrong, that would be bad as that would cost both our lives and I think the game.
The logic used in that whole train of thought was based on false premise. I feel Rad knew that, and trusted I did too.
That is what I think we did together.
So we were locked on course for potential MAD. Rad doubled down on that by I believe being sure he went down first. Who, which one person, was down with that?
On December 08 2012 19:24 Kickstart wrote:
Well I am off to bed, should be back before lynch time (though I am prone to sleeping for excessively long periods of time). I do hope to see more from especially arnarnion and jidolboy when I wake, though almost everyone (maybe not Axle or myself :D) could stand to post a bit more.
again as mentioned earlier this is feeling that it is Kick that trying make me do what he wants.
unFOS Rad.
Again because it feels right.
##unvote
##vote Kicks
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Could I have a vote Tally please.
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The very first time i felt, funny about Kick was here.
On December 04 2012 10:41 Kickstart wrote:Got home from school early hurray. This will be my third game, my first game was Mario Mini Mafia where we won as town, my second game was Newbie Mini Mafia XXXI where I lost as scum. On lurker lynch policy I am of the opinion you lynch top scum reads, that is the goal of the game after all. If someone lurking seriously becomes an issue then they can be dealt with at the adequate time.
Emph Add.
This appears to me to be subtly buddying the whole of town.
For me, Inside my head it feels like this there is the voice I listen to me, and there is this other voice, whispering, Yay team, be my friend.
That post sticks in my mind.
The feel of the other players first posts is more one of quiet distrust. While we all know one another are probably town
The game history is one thing, but listing the previous win loss record also feels like buddying up to town.
It is subtle but it is there.
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Vote tally coming up in a minute
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[QUOTE]On December 09 2012 07:01 AxleGreaser wrote:
[QUOTE]On December 08 2012 19:24 Kickstart wrote:
Well I am off to bed, should be back before lynch time (though I am prone to sleeping for excessively long periods of time). I do hope to see more from especially arnarnion and jidolboy when I wake, though almost everyone (maybe not Axle or myself :D) could stand to post a bit more.[/QUOTE]
To expand upon this so you understand my reasoning. If i just commit to that course of action and it turns out I was wrong, then having lynched Rad, they then have to lynch me. The person who is happy for me to go that wrong way is Kick.
If he is scum these actions make much more sense.
While these actions are not the early on in the game, they are also at a time when for me intention was best observed.
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Oats masters first post (or maybe a few) was for me hard to read, but i will try.
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Votecount:
AxleGreaser (1) - Rad
Rad (3) - Kickstart, Yamato77, jidolboy
jidolboy (1) Sylencia
Yamato77 (1) Arnarnion
Kickstart (1) AxleGreaser
Not voting: no one HUZZAH
You have ~ 2 hours left to vote. PM me if there are any problems with the vote count.
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With the votes so Broadly Spread and two hours to go we really had better get something done.
I bet your going to cry, when you know how hard I tried not to Listen the all town COACHES.
That was even earlier, and I didn't hear, that at all. While I can make early good reads me being so new too this I missed soo many others.
This early post
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=159&topic_id=385389
does not give me an accurate feel at all. The basis I think it is the past pre game history is misleading ME and clouding my ability to be on the same page as him at all. Oats may have been in two games, this however is my first, thus our understanding of the game back here was very different. I think I have only very recently got on the right page.
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11589 Posts
Axle I would consolidate your vote because I doubt you will be able to get anyone to follow you in voting Kick. if you think there is any chance at all of Rad being scum, you should vote for him or there will be no lynch.
That goes equally to all other town. Consolidate or make a good reason not to.
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Axle is so clueless so I have a hard time imagining him to be scum. He does not understand the implications of me being scum after what went down Day 1. Anyways, I think jidol gave us a decent amount to work with and I now have a slight scum read on Arn. Arn seems to be setting himself up to look town (if Rad flips town) by just throwing his vote on a random person who has some suspicion on him (Yamato who I said earlier had the scummiest day 1 play, but who I don't think is the most scummy atm) yet he doesn't address any of the discussion points that town is currently going over.
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I would encourage Axle, Arn, and Sylencia to consolidate their votes please so that we can avoid a no lynch. Just make it clear in your post that you are consolidating and that is the reason for your vote (in case anyone tries to bring it up later).
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Axle don't discuss coaching ;o!
And actually think about your claim that you think I am scum, you seem to be making this claim without taking into consideration any of the events that happened thus far in the game, i.e. my interaction with oats and me being the most vocal towny (or one of) pushing for the lynch of Oats and now Rad.
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As time is short I will do all I can, and prioritize the best that I can.
Another critical post from the start is this one.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17124574
This post has a strong town feel. One reason is that it comes in with plan of how to get the game started,
by asking some questions, it is a good plan for how get a game going on the right track. In truth as back then
I really played mainly by instinct, I have no idea what happened.
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Well I will spell it out for you and then you can go back and look at it. Me and Oats were completely going at it. He was tunneling me hardcore despite not having anything and I was just constantly going after him and arguing with him, and he flipped scum. If I were scum you would have to assume that we set out to do this from the start to set me up to look town. Now while that scenario is possible, it is not likely and you have to make a ton of assumptions to get yourself to hold that position.
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EBWOP
Be sure to consolidate though, it is important so that we avoid no one getting lynched which would be a wasted day period at this point.
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EPT
