NOTE: the quotes get fucked up near the end, and I can't figure it out (I did figure out one missed one though :D). I'm sorry. I'm actually a programmer so mismatching tags makes me sad...
+ Show Spoiler +On December 08 2012 14:59 Kickstart wrote:
Throughout the game Rad has been going after targets that seem easy, he has jumped onto whatever wagon has some traction
Wrong. What bandwagons have I jumped on? I had a scum read on you from the beginning (see my case on you). Other than you, I just voted axle, those are my 2 votes so far. You think your one vote on axle is a bandwagon? LOL. I woke up, read his garbage as I was eating breakfast, and responded with my vote. I did not give 2 shits that you had a vote on him (shit look at your vote of "whatever" - great reasoning kick).
+ Show Spoiler +On December 08 2012 14:59 Kickstart wrote:
he is playing scummy all around.
"Guys he's totally scummy, like all around." (that was your voice in my head)
+ Show Spoiler +On December 08 2012 14:59 Kickstart wrote:
Rad is SCUM
His only scum read this game has been on me, and at this point, without sounding too pretentious, I am the closest thing this game has to confirmed town.
After the flip of Oats as scum I have been waiting to see more from Rad and decided that to commit to a read on him I wanted more; thankfully, he gave me more to go on.
My bad I confirmation biased you all of d1. Your bad that you're confirmation biasing me the entire game. Who has given us shit to go on n1 and d2 (no one except yamato and sylencia IMO, and axle shitting up the thread with confusion)? You're welcome for contributing to the thread and "giving you more to go on" unlike some others.
+ Show Spoiler +On December 08 2012 14:59 Kickstart wrote:
His Flip-Flop on Axle
Rad has done a complete turn around on his views on Axle. Day 1 he was pushing a lynch on me and defended Axles posting, and used my vote on Axle as a point in his case on me. Here Axle responds to my vote by asking me am I looking for scum or dumb, note that he indicts me for not voting based on Axle being scummy to me because he later puts his vote on Axle without a scum read on him.
Axle looked like what I thought was clearly newbie town on d1 with his insecurity. I knew he was an odd poster based on his posts in QT (which I got in an argument with him about, before this game). Your axle vote on d1 looked like bullshit because your reasoning was "because dumb." Again, look at my case on you. I noted the difference between "because dumb" and both yamato's and sylencia's policy lynch reasoning. These are completely different frames of mind IMO.
I have also explained my turn around on axle in my vote post for him. Please read it again and question me on it if you're not satisfied, but I'm kinda pissed that you've just ignored that and are making it a point against me.
+ Show Spoiler +On December 08 2012 14:59 Kickstart wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 14:03 Rad wrote:On December 05 2012 13:50 Kickstart wrote:
##AxleGreaser
Because dumb. On December 05 2012 13:51 Kickstart wrote:
ebwop: woops
##Vote: AxleGreaser I'm curious, kick. Do you want to vote for people you think are scum, or people you think are dumb? (oh wait, we just found out the answer to that) ##Vote: Kickstart Rad fairly questions my vote, but he goes on to defend Axle's posting. Rad just voted on Axle after the level of discontent for Axle reached a peak, even after hard defending his awkward posting style before. In other words, Rad's vote on Axle is blatant opportunism - he doesn't think Axle is scum and, apparently, he knows from looking at Axle's posting history that this is just how Axle posts.
I specifically say that I can't consider him newbie town anymore because of how he was posting at that time. For all I know, I've made another terrible read and this guy is pushing his "i'm too random to be scum" agenda further. Also, what's this shit about "apparently he knows from looking at axle's posting history that this is just how axle posts"?? Go look at that last NMM QT. I WAS THERE TALKING TO HIM. I went into this game not knowing wtf to expect from him because his shit was so confusing in the QT.
+ Show Spoiler +On December 08 2012 14:59 Kickstart wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 05:02 Rad wrote:@kickCan you explain why you voted him, with explanation "Because dumb"? It wasn't a pressure move - he had been talking like that the entire game, and in the last NMM QT. That's how he talks. What do you want him to do about it? So if not a pressure move, and not a serious vote, then what? For funzies? To stir shit up? I don't get it. On December 06 2012 05:16 Rad wrote:
@kick
That's how he talks. Check last NMM's QT. I didn't understand wtf he was talking about from the start there and had to get him to clarify himself. I had to read his 1 sentence per line post over and over to figure it out. What you're saying is you don't give a shit if he's town or scum, and that you will lynch him regardless.
I get the idea of a policy lynch on him, but 2 things. 1. you're going to have to policy lynch him every game you play in with him, because that's just how he talks. Perhaps you could just attempt to understand instead. 2. he's so damn obviously newbie townie (or amazing scum, no way though) that you're better off ignoring him rather than lynching him.
What's your honest read on Axle, kick? Town or scum? So why the complete switch? Are we to believe that after hard defending Axle's posting that now, only a short time later, he is so opposed to it. I have a hard time believing such a thing, especially when the vote can be explained much easier: Rad is scum and viewed the discontent for Axle as an opportunity for a mys-lynch.
You clearly haven't actually read all axle's posts. I actually have. In d1 he looks confused newbie town. I try to push him to stop that shit and contribute something useful. See my last game (where I was TOWN) and did the same damn thing to obzy. I just wanted to nudge him in the right direction, and talking shit to him isn't the way to go (see where I was TOWN and called debears out for being scum - even though he ended up being town also - because he was being a dick to obzy, because I considered his posts anti-town).
Axle day 2 started going fucking nuts, voting himself and spamming. Not confused newbie town anymore, or is it? I don't know anymore. I just know that if he's left in the last 3, it'll be a coin flip on who wins. First you'll mislynch me, then you'll mislynch (IMO) yamato, then it'll be axle the self-voting nonsense spammer and 2 other people. Look at his voting history - he OMGUS votes you d1 (before he switched back to no lynch?!?), then OMGUS votes me (would you put money on what he'll do next?).
+ Show Spoiler +On December 08 2012 14:59 Kickstart wrote:
Reading through Rad's post where he puts his vote on Axle gives us no new information that can justify the sudden switch. Rad just reiterates the frustrations of everyone else that Axle's posts are hard to understand, even after hard defending Axles posting a short time ago.
It absolutely gives you new information. I made a decision and gave my reasoning for it. I could have sat back like other people and done nothing. What does my vote on axle do for me if I'm scum other than bring attention to me? It caused axle to be angry with me and makes you wonder why I'm "sheeping" you. Unfortunately you read the new information poorly.
+ Show Spoiler +On December 08 2012 14:59 Kickstart wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 01:03 Rad wrote:Axle, imagine yourself and 2 others left in this game. One of you is scum. How the fuck is town supposed to decide if you're scum or not in that scenario? You're literally forcing yourself to be a policy lynch due to being 100% unreadable. I can't even consider you newbie town anymore because you're just spamming up the thread with no direction. You ask a question, get a couple answers, and do NOTHING with it. You vote yourself, unvote, vote, unvote, talk to yourself, wtf? If you get lynched and flip scum I will /facepalm. If you get lynched and flip town, I will have to consider not playing with you anymore. From last NMM obs:
glhf
Its hammer time.
If this post is not what I ought put here, I am good with editing it away.
If OakMaster turns up would someone kindly direct him to this question, that might be best
thrashed out here not in Day 1 of XXXII noob game (As that might terrify the natives)
Oakmaster
I have never played game of mafia in my life.....
So you might tend to discount what I say.
However if an utter wet noob can say this too you and be right... perhaps there is a real problem.
Try getting some of obs to laugh at how silly these points are?
I might very well play in the next noob game depending when it starts.
I do however want it to be a fun experience for both of us.
I had however been tossing up the idea just not playing until you stop playing in the noobs.
I have been having trouble working out what I am going
to do so that if you and I play in a game I don't get mislynched D2.
As a noob seeking to learn.
I have been told what I should do when trying to do reads is not
get tied up in logic but look for the motivations of the player.
Thus I have a question I want to know what OakMasters actual motivation
was during D2.
A wagon was running on him, it acquired influential players.
During that time when there was real possibility he might have to claim...
Did he wonder what will be best for town or was his one priority, "get the lynch off me anywhere
doesn't have to be the best place, just so long as it is anywhere?"
How did you let it go to one of the towns previously Most town reads?
Were you overly suspicious of him?
What had Oakmaster been doing with his time, who did he want to lynch the most?
Or did he simply not care.
After that day how many people were actually saved by the blueness of his role?
If he had been in fact been as derp as he had been playing... wasn't it actually the worst play.
Did he bring any evidence he was not derp?
To scummy to be scum, to derp to be a doctor to be worth even saving was my read.
You didn't even come with any evidence you could play better than you had.
What would have happened if you looked for your meta case of kickstart the first day
and dropped that on top of Aquas post.
Obs would have cheered, so would I youd have been a legend, you might still be.
What had you done except wait for your time in the sun?
I know it is not my place, but I nominate OakMaster : Serial killer MVP.
Yeah I do know the available roles: my nomination stands.
BTW: This is how you execute someone.
Might it hurt his feelings? glhf.
What is your intention with your play this game axle. You criticize oats for his play in last NMM, but what would you say of yourself in this game? Who was worse, blue oats trying to save himself last game, or you literally contributing nothing to this game but confusion. You have the potential to take down town all on your own if we mislynch a couple times. What win scenario would that fit for you?
##Vote: AxleGreaser
Note that Rad casts no suspicion on Axle at all, all he does is restate everyone's frustration with Axle. Then look at this post where when asked what scum reads Rad has, he names two people - neither of which are Axle. How can one say that he is most suspicious of two certain people when his current vote is on neither of them? There is no town motive for voting someone who you don't think is scum, but such a move can easily be explained with Rad as scum.
So, you're saying I "don't cast suspicion on axle" and that's a scummy thing to do?? I'm doing 2 things with my vote on him. I'm letting him know of my frustration in his posts - because in d1, he appeared to be moving in the right direction for town, but in d2 he started going bonkers. Secondly, I'm telling him to shape up, because I now am not sure how the hell to read him, but during d1 I thought he was heading in the right direction at times. He's 100% unreadable with his new direction. I pointed out why that's bad for town and why that makes him a reasonable vote. I also point out that he's being a hypocrite based on his REAL self (QT self being necessarily real, mafia game self being unknown) and want him to realize that if he's town, he needs to step back and judge his own contributions to this game, as he so easily did with oats from last game.
His response to my vote is OMGUS and tunneling.
The other 2 people are based on "who are my weakest town reads." Considering I have a town read on sylencia and yamato, and I'm forced to have a town read on you due to d1 vote outcome (or you're just a crafty scum mfer, but going with occam's razor), the last 2 are jidolboy and arn. They have contributed extremely little to this game and their decisions have been extremely suspicious (no ongoing reasoninng discussion from jidol, arn being super wishy washy as well as the last vote to push oats over the edge).
+ Show Spoiler +On December 08 2012 14:59 Kickstart wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 13:44 Rad wrote:On December 08 2012 13:36 AxleGreaser wrote:
What I want to know from rad is do you have any scum reads right now?
Whoooa, straight forward question. You DO have it in you!
I'm suspicious of jidolboy and arn. I do not have a strong read on them because they have done the most lurking. If I were to vote someone besides you, it would likely be one of them.
Do you have any scum reads right now? Besides me of course which totally isn't an OMGUS vote. Amusingly, Axle seems to catch onto this and pushes Rad on it, asking him why he is suspicious of those two people (for whatever reason he doesn't bring up the more important point that Rad's vote is on neither of them). Rad doesn't respond too kindly. It is interesting that in this post he says that if he decides to vote on who he is most suspicious of he will back it up with sufficient reasoning when his current vote is backed up by none.
This is really becoming bullshit, kick. I explained my reasoning for voting axle IN THE VOTE POST. Why are you pointing out this idea that "i never explained myself" over and over and over? If you have issues with my reasoning, confront me and ask me to explain. Don't build an entire case around it as if it's multiple points when it's just 1 completely wrong point over and over.
+ Show Spoiler +On December 08 2012 14:59 Kickstart wrote:The Scum Wagon on MeRad's Day-1 play is no better than what I outlined above. His actions Day 1, while even more suspect due to the fact that we know that Oats was scum and was leading a push on me, are scummy without an association to Oats. Rad seems to want to jump onto someone early Day 1, much like he has jumped on Axle currently. The first instance of this is Rad questioning me about a joke post. I have hashed this out with Rad and it is a pretty tired topic but it shows how Rad is thinking, it shows that he is looking for someone to latch onto. Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 11:11 Rad wrote:On December 04 2012 11:06 Kickstart wrote:
O yeah that reminds me, I am down for lynching Oats due to his play last game. Anyone else?
You're down for lynching strictly based on his play from last game (where he was town) rather than scum hunting and lynching your biggest scum read? What exactly do you expect to get from this? While questioning someone is not scummy, trying to jump on an easy target is, that is why I bring up the above post as a point in my case. Rad against takes a very reactionary approach in his Day 1 vote on me. At the time I was an easy target, and Rad jumps on me in a very opportunistic way. On December 05 2012 14:03 Rad wrote:On December 05 2012 13:50 Kickstart wrote:
##AxleGreaser
Because dumb. On December 05 2012 13:51 Kickstart wrote:
ebwop: woops
##Vote: AxleGreaser I'm curious, kick. Do you want to vote for people you think are scum, or people you think are dumb? (oh wait, we just found out the answer to that) ##Vote: Kickstart Now have a look at Rad's case on me, and pay particular attention to the portion I have marked red and note that Rad is guilty of all of them, and not that he starts off with the point that scum doesn't care who dies as long as it is town - which is telling given his current vote on Axle with no scum read on him. + Show Spoiler +On December 05 2012 16:26 Rad wrote:Kickstart, the try-hard scumLast game didn't work out so well for him. He was scum, got caught, and lost the game. For any of you who followed this, perhaps you'll remember a bit about how it was played out. He was an ass, and he has claimed (before this game) that this would continue to be his meta. I see some of you are fooled by it, but all you have to do is read his previous game and note that the differences aren't all that drastic. Scum doesn't care who dies, as long as it's townFrom NMM XXXI: Show nested quote +On November 29 2012 13:31 Kickstart wrote:
Don't think this really needs too much justification but I will give a bit anyways. Bad play since beginning, suspicious and scummy. After numerous requests to shape up from many people he is still unable to and is still sheeping his vote around while making no real cases on anyone (I am sorry but some crap case that you yourself are the first to dismiss shortly after you make it don't count).
You have had ample opportunity to change my mind by scum hunting and posting a decent case on anyone. Since you refuse to do so and your most recent posts are just more evidence that you refuse to do so I am putting my vote on you. You still have time to scum hunt and start playing the game - I suggest you do so.
##vote: Oatsmaster Here he votes oats not because he feels oats is scum (everyone can use the word "scummy"), but because oats isn't being productive town. NOT a reason to vote town. This is of course the prelude to today's WTF moment of: "So Rad, if kick did this shit last game, why would he do it this game?"Let me point you to promo's huge post giving him and helo some suggestions: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381931¤tpage=83#1660Some interesting things to note (that I think are noticably different from his last game and this game): 1. "You needed to make your reads and stick to them. Scum often want to sit back and allow town to make cases for them, you needed to make your cases stronger and to push them instead of being wishy washy."
As scum, he needs to change his meta to be more in your face and consistent. He's doing exactly this. Last game, he'd just talk shit, but wouldn't follow through with it. This game, he's adapted.
2. "Always take the chance, as scum, to attack the townie doing something so dumb that you can't understand it."
I don't know how this suggestion could be more literal than kick, literally, calling Axle dumb and voting him. Were you LOLing when you made that vote kick, thinking no one would fucking get it?"Ok ok, Rad, enough of the meta shit, is that all you got?"Of course not. Wtf. Take the easy prey, and stick to itI tend to jump on "shit ideas" quickly. This is how I play. You can read my last 2 games (NMMXXIX and NMMXXX) and see that's what I do. I did it vs scum debears in the first game, and vs town debears in the second game, and many more times throughout those games. I did it here too, to kick's shit idea, and proceeded to question him about it. Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 11:11 Rad wrote:On December 04 2012 11:06 Kickstart wrote:
O yeah that reminds me, I am down for lynching Oats due to his play last game. Anyone else? You're down for lynching strictly based on his play from last game (where he was town) rather than scum hunting and lynching your biggest scum read? What exactly do you expect to get from this? Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 11:12 Kickstart wrote:
@ Rad
That my friend is what we call a joke, hence that post directly under it that says "jkjk" Yeah, I missed the jkjk. TT. I apologized and moved on. As soon as kick notices the weakness though (which is after he posts the above), he realizes he has an opportunity to pounce: Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 11:18 Kickstart wrote:
@Rad
So if I was actually serious about what I had said what would you have done? Fine, confusing question, but I respond: Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 11:21 Rad wrote:On December 04 2012 11:18 Kickstart wrote:
@Rad
So if I was actually serious about what I had said what would you have done? I'd have awaited your answer and asked you more questions or dropped it depending on if I thought I had a scum read on it? Seems pretty straight forward to me. Now CC jumps in with a good, smart question: Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 11:29 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On December 04 2012 11:16 Rad wrote:
@kick sorry missed the jkjk =/ I'm quick to jump on shit ideas ^^ What did Kick's "shit idea" tell you in terms of alignment? If Kick truly believed he wanted to lynch Oats for behavior last game, is that scum motivated? I reply to CC, and kick jumps in: Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 11:32 Kickstart wrote:
What cheese just asked is what I was getting at Rad, I was being a bit more subtle but you just kind of brushed it away after I questioned you about it. I wanted to see if what I had said would have made you try and push me as a scum read. OK kick, sure buddy, you saw that cheese had a smarter question than you and decided to attempt to sheep it, all the while pushing suspicion on me (I "brushed it away"? wtf no I answered your question) and suggesting it was a **SCUM TRAP!!!*** And where does this go? Kick literally throws out a "HUGE post" about yamato and me, with the only point being about my mistaken questioning of his joke (which he, again, takes the opportunity to point out that "oh bummer I should have caught him in my scumtrap because he's obviously scum".) Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 15:59 Kickstart wrote:
/snip
Unfortunately I immediately revealed that I was joking and then the whole thing was dropped, otherwise I could have maybe pressed it a bit and gotten more of a reaction from him, but again I view his initial reaction as slightly scummy.
He then proceeds to whine about no one reading his post, and how everyone's stupid because of it (read after his "HUGE post" about me and yamato), attempting to give himself more town credit (also note that I responded to his post before he started whining, and he did not persue me further - satisfied with my answer or scum too lazy to push the issue?). To summarize: 1. Has fooled many by acting like a more vocal "can't possibly be scum" asshole rather than a "pick your targets carefully" asshole. 2. Clearly sheep's CC's reasoning and attempts to push suspicion onto me after the fact, as if it were his plan all along. 3. Tried to increase the importance of his "HUGE post" by calling people out for "not reading it" and basically saying "acknowledge me or I will ignore you." 4. Failed the ultimate test of voting for the correct (townie) reason: town does not vote for "dumb" as he put it, town votes for scum. Then plays it off as "scum trap" when I call him out on it and OMGUS votes me. I am now exhausted and going to bed. I will read and respond to replies to this when I get a chance tomorrow, but again, I'll be working and only have limited availability until I'm done (should be around the same time as today, but will try to push for getting done earlier since lynch is tomorrow). In the way of direct interaction between Oats and Rad there isn't much, Oats only responds to a few arbitrary statements. What we do have however is a clear agenda that Oats tried to push (to push a mys-lynch on me) and the fact that Day 1 Rad had the same exact agenda. Rad pushed this agenda to the fullest - he showed suspicion of ONLY me, this is not town play. Town is naturally suspicious of everyone, but the entirety of Day 1 is Rad tunneling me, which we already know was the scum agenda for day 1. Rad is not suspicious of anyone else to a serious degree, and even gives everyone else but me a town or null read Day 1 - this is not the play of a suspicious towny looking for scum, it is the play of scum consciously pushing an agenda. On December 05 2012 01:41 Rad wrote:
I'm all caught up now.
@kick
Not sure what else to say to you about your concerns with me but TBH that's just my play style. I'm a bit embarrassed that I totally missed the jkjk but what happens is I read something really stupid and then feel the need to jump on it immediately. Feel free to glance over my previous games (XXIX and XXX) if you'd like to see this in action.
@CC
1. "I have no idea who to lynch, but I can justify it because of this post!" - this hasn't happened, why even speculate that it will happen? What's the point of casting suspicion on me for something I haven't even done?
2. If kick's idea was sincere, I'd have major problems with it (as I've already said). My concern there was your quoting "shit idea" as if it wasn't one. I thought perhaps you read his idea differently than how I did, thus my question.
3. Kick literally FoS's yamato then immediately turns around and says "weeelll maybe I'm being too harsh, what's everyone else's thoughts?" Looks like useless trying to be useful. I wanted to get him to talk more about it instead of letting him push it back out onto everyone else.
Thoughts so far:
- leaning scum on kick - just my gut initial feeling, I'm going to focus more on looking into it when I have time after work tonight
- leaning town on yamato - he's acting just like last game IMO, I feel like he'd have to change things up if he were scum
- mind blown trying to understand axle, but I'm happy that he's trying now (his change feels super newbie town, so leaning town) and want to see where he goes with his oats discussion
- leaning town on CC, I feel like he was much less confrontational in his scum game and he's asking good questions
Other reads are pretty null
Going to be fairly lurky today, until tonight when I'm off work and can focus on everything, but wanted to get this post out there in the meantime. I will try to get chances throughout the day to respond when possible.
Yeah kick, we were just like "LOL let's get kick and when he flips town we'll just get busted, but who cares!!" Seriously how do you see this play out in your head?
I didn't look into oats much on d1 because he was fitting my idea of how his town meta was. I've watched him in chrono and the last NMM and to me his play was identical. I went into NMM QT and specifically said his play pissed me off, but that it was probably me reading scum wrong. Maybe that had something to do with it. If he was quieter and less controversial, maybe I would have had a different read on him. Instead, he pushed conversation and had a large filter. I learned specifically in the last couple newbies I played that the one with the biggest filter isn't usually scum. Everything just fit for town oats to me.
+ Show Spoiler +
[QUOTE]On December 08 2012 14:59 Kickstart wrote:
Conclusion
After Day 1's events I decided to wait and give Rad a fair chance. Since the association was so strong between him and Oats I wanted to see if he would show any signs of pro-town play, what we got is clearly reactionary and opportunistic play, scum play.
##unvote
##Vote:Rad
It's how I play as town. Get ready to vote for me in every game you play with me ^^
|
EPT
(Although I kinda feel useless to the town ATM)
