EPTI noticed this as well and it is in my current case against Rad that I am typing up, I will post the case in its entirety shortly.
Newbie Mini Mafia XXXII - Page 52
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Kickstart
United States1941 Posts
I noticed this as well and it is in my current case against Rad that I am typing up, I will post the case in its entirety shortly. | ||
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
As has been observed, in the full flap of the fight I get flustered and make errors. If that is what is flying around I will let those that can do. it is now my intention to make the best case i can on Rad. Slowly and carefully. I think few things shook loose. Of course if Rad or anyone wishes to discuss it interactively some more I am happy too. Otherwise I trust your judgment that I can make case, that will make it stick. It may cost me getting lynched tonight but that is Ok. go team. | ||
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Sylencia
Australia1057 Posts
On December 08 2012 13:39 yamato77 wrote: You haven't really searched for scum the whole game so why would this be any different? Seems like a blendy scum excuse to park your vote on the easiest mislynch. Incorrect, I actually made a plan last night but then it seems like 10 Axle posts completely drowned out anything that was said previous before it. And considering the fact that during day 1 I had to give a whole explanation on why I chose between Rad and Oats - why I thought one of those two were scum, and why I had chosen to ignore the majority of the other people doesn't qualify as doing anything? In any case, I'll restate what I said. If there is a named townie, they should come forth as the more clear we are on the situation, the better off we are. | ||
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
my last post was not a request for silence, please treat both as null. {must learn in here never social} | ||
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Kickstart
United States1941 Posts
Throughout the game Rad has been going after targets that seem easy, he has jumped onto whatever wagon has some traction, and he is playing scummy all around. His only scum read this game has been on me, and at this point, without sounding too pretentious, I am the closest thing this game has to confirmed town. After the flip of Oats as scum I have been waiting to see more from Rad and decided that to commit to a read on him I wanted more; thankfully, he gave me more to go on. His Flip-Flop on Axle Rad has done a complete turn around on his views on Axle. Day 1 he was pushing a lynch on me and defended Axles posting, and used my vote on Axle as a point in his case on me. Here Axle responds to my vote by asking me am I looking for scum or dumb, note that he indicts me for not voting based on Axle being scummy to me because he later puts his vote on Axle without a scum read on him. On December 05 2012 14:03 Rad wrote: I'm curious, kick. Do you want to vote for people you think are scum, or people you think are dumb? (oh wait, we just found out the answer to that) ##Vote: Kickstart Rad fairly questions my vote, but he goes on to defend Axle's posting. Rad just voted on Axle after the level of discontent for Axle reached a peak, even after hard defending his awkward posting style before. In other words, Rad's vote on Axle is blatant opportunism - he doesn't think Axle is scum and, apparently, he knows from looking at Axle's posting history that this is just how Axle posts. On December 06 2012 05:02 Rad wrote: @kick Can you explain why you voted him, with explanation "Because dumb"? It wasn't a pressure move - he had been talking like that the entire game, and in the last NMM QT. That's how he talks. What do you want him to do about it? So if not a pressure move, and not a serious vote, then what? For funzies? To stir shit up? I don't get it. On December 06 2012 05:16 Rad wrote: @kick That's how he talks. Check last NMM's QT. I didn't understand wtf he was talking about from the start there and had to get him to clarify himself. I had to read his 1 sentence per line post over and over to figure it out. What you're saying is you don't give a shit if he's town or scum, and that you will lynch him regardless. I get the idea of a policy lynch on him, but 2 things. 1. you're going to have to policy lynch him every game you play in with him, because that's just how he talks. Perhaps you could just attempt to understand instead. 2. he's so damn obviously newbie townie (or amazing scum, no way though) that you're better off ignoring him rather than lynching him. What's your honest read on Axle, kick? Town or scum? So why the complete switch? Are we to believe that after hard defending Axle's posting that now, only a short time later, he is so opposed to it. I have a hard time believing such a thing, especially when the vote can be explained much easier: Rad is scum and viewed the discontent for Axle as an opportunity for a mys-lynch. Reading through Rad's post where he puts his vote on Axle gives us no new information that can justify the sudden switch. Rad just reiterates the frustrations of everyone else that Axle's posts are hard to understand, even after hard defending Axles posting a short time ago. On December 08 2012 01:03 Rad wrote: Axle, imagine yourself and 2 others left in this game. One of you is scum. How the fuck is town supposed to decide if you're scum or not in that scenario? You're literally forcing yourself to be a policy lynch due to being 100% unreadable. I can't even consider you newbie town anymore because you're just spamming up the thread with no direction. You ask a question, get a couple answers, and do NOTHING with it. You vote yourself, unvote, vote, unvote, talk to yourself, wtf? If you get lynched and flip scum I will /facepalm. If you get lynched and flip town, I will have to consider not playing with you anymore. From last NMM obs: What is your intention with your play this game axle. You criticize oats for his play in last NMM, but what would you say of yourself in this game? Who was worse, blue oats trying to save himself last game, or you literally contributing nothing to this game but confusion. You have the potential to take down town all on your own if we mislynch a couple times. What win scenario would that fit for you? ##Vote: AxleGreaser Note that Rad casts no suspicion on Axle at all, all he does is restate everyone's frustration with Axle. Then look at this post where when asked what scum reads Rad has, he names two people - neither of which are Axle. How can one say that he is most suspicious of two certain people when his current vote is on neither of them? There is no town motive for voting someone who you don't think is scum, but such a move can easily be explained with Rad as scum. On December 08 2012 13:44 Rad wrote: Whoooa, straight forward question. You DO have it in you! I'm suspicious of jidolboy and arn. I do not have a strong read on them because they have done the most lurking. If I were to vote someone besides you, it would likely be one of them. Do you have any scum reads right now? Besides me of course which totally isn't an OMGUS vote. Amusingly, Axle seems to catch onto this and pushes Rad on it, asking him why he is suspicious of those two people (for whatever reason he doesn't bring up the more important point that Rad's vote is on neither of them). Rad doesn't respond too kindly. It is interesting that in this post he says that if he decides to vote on who he is most suspicious of he will back it up with sufficient reasoning when his current vote is backed up by none. On December 08 2012 14:10 Rad wrote: Fuck it axle, I'm not dealing with you anymore tonight. Park your vote on me for the rest of the day, that's fine with me. I love it, it makes me feel warm inside. If I decide to vote jidolboy or arn, I will back my vote up with sufficient reasoning. I don't know why you're treating this game like a chat room but I'm done with that. Going to go play hots and watch proleague. Of course, if anyone else who has reasonable expectations for the time it takes to answer their questions has any questions for me, please leave them (I expect that would be everyone but Axle). I'll be back to check them, and answer them, in due time, like one would expect from a forum. The Scum Wagon on Me Rad's Day-1 play is no better than what I outlined above. His actions Day 1, while even more suspect due to the fact that we know that Oats was scum and was leading a push on me, are scummy without an association to Oats. Rad seems to want to jump onto someone early Day 1, much like he has jumped on Axle currently. The first instance of this is Rad questioning me about a joke post. I have hashed this out with Rad and it is a pretty tired topic but it shows how Rad is thinking, it shows that he is looking for someone to latch onto. On December 04 2012 11:11 Rad wrote: You're down for lynching strictly based on his play from last game (where he was town) rather than scum hunting and lynching your biggest scum read? What exactly do you expect to get from this? While questioning someone is not scummy, trying to jump on an easy target is, that is why I bring up the above post as a point in my case. Rad against takes a very reactionary approach in his Day 1 vote on me. At the time I was an easy target, and Rad jumps on me in a very opportunistic way. On December 05 2012 14:03 Rad wrote: I'm curious, kick. Do you want to vote for people you think are scum, or people you think are dumb? (oh wait, we just found out the answer to that) ##Vote: Kickstart Now have a look at Rad's case on me, and pay particular attention to the portion I have marked red and note that Rad is guilty of all of them, and not that he starts off with the point that scum doesn't care who dies as long as it is town - which is telling given his current vote on Axle with no scum read on him. + Show Spoiler + On December 05 2012 16:26 Rad wrote: Kickstart, the try-hard scum Last game didn't work out so well for him. He was scum, got caught, and lost the game. For any of you who followed this, perhaps you'll remember a bit about how it was played out. He was an ass, and he has claimed (before this game) that this would continue to be his meta. I see some of you are fooled by it, but all you have to do is read his previous game and note that the differences aren't all that drastic. Scum doesn't care who dies, as long as it's town From NMM XXXI: Here he votes oats not because he feels oats is scum (everyone can use the word "scummy"), but because oats isn't being productive town. NOT a reason to vote town. This is of course the prelude to today's WTF moment of: "So Rad, if kick did this shit last game, why would he do it this game?" Let me point you to promo's huge post giving him and helo some suggestions: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381931¤tpage=83#1660 Some interesting things to note (that I think are noticably different from his last game and this game): 1. "You needed to make your reads and stick to them. Scum often want to sit back and allow town to make cases for them, you needed to make your cases stronger and to push them instead of being wishy washy." As scum, he needs to change his meta to be more in your face and consistent. He's doing exactly this. Last game, he'd just talk shit, but wouldn't follow through with it. This game, he's adapted. 2. "Always take the chance, as scum, to attack the townie doing something so dumb that you can't understand it." I don't know how this suggestion could be more literal than kick, literally, calling Axle dumb and voting him. Were you LOLing when you made that vote kick, thinking no one would fucking get it? "Ok ok, Rad, enough of the meta shit, is that all you got?" Of course not. Wtf. Take the easy prey, and stick to it I tend to jump on "shit ideas" quickly. This is how I play. You can read my last 2 games (NMMXXIX and NMMXXX) and see that's what I do. I did it vs scum debears in the first game, and vs town debears in the second game, and many more times throughout those games. I did it here too, to kick's shit idea, and proceeded to question him about it. Yeah, I missed the jkjk. TT. I apologized and moved on. As soon as kick notices the weakness though (which is after he posts the above), he realizes he has an opportunity to pounce: Fine, confusing question, but I respond: Seems pretty straight forward to me. Now CC jumps in with a good, smart question: I reply to CC, and kick jumps in: OK kick, sure buddy, you saw that cheese had a smarter question than you and decided to attempt to sheep it, all the while pushing suspicion on me (I "brushed it away"? wtf no I answered your question) and suggesting it was a **SCUM TRAP!!!*** And where does this go? Kick literally throws out a "HUGE post" about yamato and me, with the only point being about my mistaken questioning of his joke (which he, again, takes the opportunity to point out that "oh bummer I should have caught him in my scumtrap because he's obviously scum".) He then proceeds to whine about no one reading his post, and how everyone's stupid because of it (read after his "HUGE post" about me and yamato), attempting to give himself more town credit (also note that I responded to his post before he started whining, and he did not persue me further - satisfied with my answer or scum too lazy to push the issue?). To summarize: 1. Has fooled many by acting like a more vocal "can't possibly be scum" asshole rather than a "pick your targets carefully" asshole. 2. Clearly sheep's CC's reasoning and attempts to push suspicion onto me after the fact, as if it were his plan all along. 3. Tried to increase the importance of his "HUGE post" by calling people out for "not reading it" and basically saying "acknowledge me or I will ignore you." 4. Failed the ultimate test of voting for the correct (townie) reason: town does not vote for "dumb" as he put it, town votes for scum. Then plays it off as "scum trap" when I call him out on it and OMGUS votes me. I am now exhausted and going to bed. I will read and respond to replies to this when I get a chance tomorrow, but again, I'll be working and only have limited availability until I'm done (should be around the same time as today, but will try to push for getting done earlier since lynch is tomorrow). In the way of direct interaction between Oats and Rad there isn't much, Oats only responds to a few arbitrary statements. What we do have however is a clear agenda that Oats tried to push (to push a mys-lynch on me) and the fact that Day 1 Rad had the same exact agenda. Rad pushed this agenda to the fullest - he showed suspicion of ONLY me, this is not town play. Town is naturally suspicious of everyone, but the entirety of Day 1 is Rad tunneling me, which we already know was the scum agenda for day 1. Rad is not suspicious of anyone else to a serious degree, and even gives everyone else but me a town or null read Day 1 - this is not the play of a suspicious towny looking for scum, it is the play of scum consciously pushing an agenda. On December 05 2012 01:41 Rad wrote: I'm all caught up now. @kick Not sure what else to say to you about your concerns with me but TBH that's just my play style. I'm a bit embarrassed that I totally missed the jkjk but what happens is I read something really stupid and then feel the need to jump on it immediately. Feel free to glance over my previous games (XXIX and XXX) if you'd like to see this in action. @CC 1. "I have no idea who to lynch, but I can justify it because of this post!" - this hasn't happened, why even speculate that it will happen? What's the point of casting suspicion on me for something I haven't even done? 2. If kick's idea was sincere, I'd have major problems with it (as I've already said). My concern there was your quoting "shit idea" as if it wasn't one. I thought perhaps you read his idea differently than how I did, thus my question. 3. Kick literally FoS's yamato then immediately turns around and says "weeelll maybe I'm being too harsh, what's everyone else's thoughts?" Looks like useless trying to be useful. I wanted to get him to talk more about it instead of letting him push it back out onto everyone else. Thoughts so far: - leaning scum on kick - just my gut initial feeling, I'm going to focus more on looking into it when I have time after work tonight - leaning town on yamato - he's acting just like last game IMO, I feel like he'd have to change things up if he were scum - mind blown trying to understand axle, but I'm happy that he's trying now (his change feels super newbie town, so leaning town) and want to see where he goes with his oats discussion - leaning town on CC, I feel like he was much less confrontational in his scum game and he's asking good questions Other reads are pretty null Going to be fairly lurky today, until tonight when I'm off work and can focus on everything, but wanted to get this post out there in the meantime. I will try to get chances throughout the day to respond when possible. Conclusion After Day 1's events I decided to wait and give Rad a fair chance. Since the association was so strong between him and Oats I wanted to see if he would show any signs of pro-town play, what we got is clearly reactionary and opportunistic play, scum play. ##unvote ##Vote:Rad | ||
yamato77
11589 Posts
I mean, your case is in exact agreement with all of my thoughts on his play but would scum team really both try to build the same wagon? It's just a little too convenient for me. Then again, I said that last game and then scum GG'd so this game could very well be solved. | ||
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Kickstart
United States1941 Posts
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Kickstart
United States1941 Posts
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yamato77
11589 Posts
IDK. If my actions are scummy this game, he has agreed with all of them and defended them which is rather odd IMO given that all the rest of town seems to think the opposite. | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
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yamato77
11589 Posts
I know it's weak WIFOM but if he's scum it makes a lot of sense. | ||
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Kickstart
United States1941 Posts
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yamato77
11589 Posts
IT'S TOO PERFECT. | ||
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Kickstart
United States1941 Posts
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yamato77
11589 Posts
On December 08 2012 15:33 Kickstart wrote: Yeah its the only logical conclusion I can come to on Rad, that he is scum. I think it is the only logical conclusion anyone can come to ;/ Yeah all my reads on the lurkers are town, even though they all show very little interest in the game. Pressure on them goes basically nowhere, either, because they don't seem dodgy or uncooperative. Axle, although sometimes incomprehensible, seems to be trying to solve the game and give us information to work with so he's probably town. You're basically confirmed town. So I guess Rad is definitely the scummiest. ##Vote Rad | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
On December 08 2012 13:30 Rad wrote: How long do we have to talk axle? Well I'm about to jump in another game of HotS. Then I'll probably check back, and play more hots, and then check back, and probably some more hots. So you have about 20 seconds to get your first question out. In red so you don't miss it. As you have observed Rad sometimes real Life gets in the way. I will be going out soon for the evening. I see other people think it is interesting too. next time I get chance i will check the thread and see if there some logical reasoning i have missed. I really dont think so. I will however happily read any coherent argument you can discuss with anyone that wants to talk to you. | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
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Sylencia
Australia1057 Posts
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