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On December 01 2012 06:38 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 06:35 goodkarma wrote:On December 01 2012 06:31 syllogism wrote:
No one really is by this point. I'm not disputing the fact that mafia realizes that they can not do anything right now. No one is making any attempts, because it's not possible. I'm not convinced that he is mafia, I just think it is likely. Doesn't matter much though until we get our next lynch. I will say that I would rather include some of these lurking players in the party than him. Just a quick question, but could you humor me and tell me a scum motivation for Hapa to lie about taking damage (or healing for that matter)? I can't think of any reason he'd feel motivated to lie about this, as town or scum... If you are looking townie, then people will interpret the source of damage to be scum. Therefore claiming damage makes you look townier (in fact, it makes you look like valuable town, because scum is trying to off you). Toad claiming the shot "confirms" that this damage came from a scum source.
So if scum actually did shoot Hapa, is there a conceivable way the heal didn't go through? With so many abilities in the game I would think this possible...
I suppose the scum motivation makes sense, but it feels like it would be a high risk scum move to make for the reward (a little "town cred")...
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On December 01 2012 06:52 syllogism wrote:
Perhaps they shot me day 2 and your protection stopped the damage or they just assumed that I would be protected every cycle. Either way I agree that mafia KP usage has been terrible based on what we know.
Your being alive also bothered me while making the chart. Given the choice of shooting Dino and shooting Syllo, I know where I'd be aiming my scumgun...
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On December 01 2012 06:48 Keirathi wrote:
One thing that has been bothering me, though: why the fuck isn't syllo dead yet? Or even taking any damage?
I can't imagine a scumteam, after having lost the day 1 election and then lost sandro day 2, to allow a town syllo with a ton of town cred to still be alive.
I'm not really sure what to make of it, though. Maybe they just haven't thought he was a threat because he hasn't been very active? I can't convince myself that he's scum, because of the day 1 party, but it doesn't make much sense.
I agree with this, and have proposed that it could be possible scum have a "Godfather"-type mechanic where one of their members doesn't ruin party success. It's complete speculation, but it certainly is odd that syllo isn't dead yet...
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On December 01 2012 07:02 goodkarma wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 06:38 Acrofales wrote:On December 01 2012 06:35 goodkarma wrote:On December 01 2012 06:31 syllogism wrote:
No one really is by this point. I'm not disputing the fact that mafia realizes that they can not do anything right now. No one is making any attempts, because it's not possible. I'm not convinced that he is mafia, I just think it is likely. Doesn't matter much though until we get our next lynch. I will say that I would rather include some of these lurking players in the party than him. Just a quick question, but could you humor me and tell me a scum motivation for Hapa to lie about taking damage (or healing for that matter)? I can't think of any reason he'd feel motivated to lie about this, as town or scum... If you are looking townie, then people will interpret the source of damage to be scum. Therefore claiming damage makes you look townier (in fact, it makes you look like valuable town, because scum is trying to off you). Toad claiming the shot "confirms" that this damage came from a scum source. So if scum actually did shoot Hapa, is there a conceivable way the heal didn't go through? With so many abilities in the game I would think this possible... I suppose the scum motivation makes sense, but it feels like it would be a high risk scum move to make for the reward (a little "town cred")...
What is so high risk about it? There is a LOT of damage flying around, most of it unclaimed. Throwing in 100 (or maybe 150) fake damage would've gone completely unnoticed, if not for the heal claim. Nobody knew about the heal notification mechanics, so that would not have figured into a risk-reward equation.
Not that I am 100% sure that that is what happened, but there is an unexplained issue here and a scum explanation for making sense of it. I will have to go over Hapa's filter more carefully and honestly can't be assed until we have another lynch cycle. Suffice to say, he should not be on any parties.
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Has the party been submitted
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Something else, though: would GreyMisT have made sandro, Toad, AND syllo scum, with Acro 3p? That would be a pretty stacked non-town. It's possible, since the game hasn't really relied on lynching very much, and scum is inherently at a disadvantage when the game revolves around town reads, but I'm not sure that its likely.
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On December 01 2012 07:27 syllogism wrote:
Has the party been submitted
Yes yes
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On December 01 2012 07:30 Keirathi wrote:
Something else, though: would GreyMisT have made sandro, Toad, AND syllo scum, with Acro 3p? That would be a pretty stacked non-town. It's possible, since the game hasn't really relied on lynching very much, and scum is inherently at a disadvantage when the game revolves around town reads, but I'm not sure that its likely.
May I ask, since you've hosted games. You use an rng of some kind I presume, do you ever get a roll where you go "no that's stupid" and re-roll?
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Spoilering Goodkarmas quotes to not shit up the thread too much.
+ Show Spoiler +On December 01 2012 01:34 goodkarma wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 01:09 phagga wrote:On December 01 2012 00:49 goodkarma wrote:On December 01 2012 00:19 phagga wrote:On November 30 2012 09:21 Hapahauli wrote:GK saw Sandro as town. If GK were scum, he would at least know that Sandro is not scum. GK wants to have sandro in his team. I don't like the reasoning of GK, I think its contradicting. I therefore make the hypothesis that if GK is scum, he takes Sandro (whom he knows not to be scum) on his team to look more townie. That's the whole story. I did not say anywhere in that post that I think that Sandro is town.
Hell, i even write one paragraph earlier: " If GK thinks Sandro is so townie that you includes him in your team" (it should actually say "you" instead of "GK", but whatever). What about GK's previous analysis was "contradictory?" He wanted someone he thought was town on his team - that's pretty straightfoward to me. Ok, let's do this right so we can hopefully close that topic. I want to put this into relation of the dialog I already had with GK at that point and how I felt about GK then. Context matters, after all. So let's start with what Goodkarma wrote here: On November 21 2012 13:06 goodkarma wrote:
Who I would nominate (if not myself):
As of right now, my support for a party leader (besides myself) would be sandroba.
Sandroba seems to be adopting a solid strategy at present. I wholeheartedly agree with going with the most townie individuals, even if they are inexperienced. We don't know how the minigames are going to work yet, but we do know with 100% certainty that scum will count against their success. In a game where we don't lynch, all we can do is establish who is actually town. It is absolutely ridiculous to nominate people who have both strong scum and town games and are hard to read day one (thinking of Marv).
I also completely agree with the suggestion that's been brought up that parties be suggested by those who are hoping to be nominated up-front. This is especially important if we are to nominate a townie who isn't as experienced.
Goodkarma for President:
As your leader, I will do my best to further the policy of choosing the most obvious townies as detailed above. Along those lines, I would elect to choose both sandroba and promethelax for my party. The third is still tentative, as the game has only been going for a short time. So, in this very post he says that he would support Sandro because he adopts a solid strategy. Then he proposes himself as party leader and says he would take Sandroba on his team. I found this strange, which is why I asked him: On November 21 2012 15:59 phagga wrote:
You would vote Sandroba because you think his strategy is solid. His strategy involves taking less known townies on the team and no additional vets, to make it harder for scum to decide who to snipe. Your Strategy however would be to take at least one vet and a well known, albeit newer town player to your team. Why? His answerOn November 21 2012 17:07 goodkarma wrote:
I agree with Sandroba insofar as that lesser known players that are obvious townies should be strongly considered. However, at the end of the day, going with your three strongest town reads is going to be optimal for selecting a party. Unfortunately I, like several other players here, have somewhat of a bias at times towards prioritizing players that we have played with before. It could also be said that less experienced players are more likely to post like crap and not distinguish themselves as town than "vets" (look at deino). So there might be some unintentional bias towards vets (which is something I would try to avoid to the best of my ability). To be clear I will definitely be reassessing my read on Prox (as well as Sandroba) before making a finalized Vice Presidential Candidate trifecta.
I don't feel it's absolutely necessary that all three chosen members are townie looking newbies. I feel that the chosen members should be closest to 100% confirmed town, and that newbies should not be left out of consideration. Maybe there is a small difference between myself and Sandroba in this area. That's good for my election campaign I suppose... So, he explains he has a slightly different plan than Sandro. Fair enough. Still, I wondered, why would anyone who has a town read on Sandro would vote Goodkarma instead of Sandroba, when Sandroba was running for party leader himself? After all, he is the vet, the well known scumhunter who was drawing votes with his name alone. Why would GK expect to be voted instead of Sandroba when his team contained Sandroba as well? I also have a short discussion with GK about town/scumhunting here. After that I write the following: On November 22 2012 07:04 phagga wrote:
- Goodkarma: I will have to go through his filter again (not in the next 10 hours though), but my gut currently says that he is talking too much about the importance of townhunting. I have him in my mind as "looks like he is contributing but is not really helping town". Do not want him on the party.
I do not call him scum. I voice my suspicion of him. Some later, Goodkarma posts this: On November 22 2012 15:10 goodkarma wrote:
3) Sandroba: However much I feel he's playing lazy (he is), I keep coming back to his filter. I do currently believe that he is town. Everything he has done to date has been to provide clarity and insight into reads others have had and the general mechanics of this specific game. He could do this as scum, but I am inclined to believe he could have been a little less helpful and gotten away with it as scum as well. I look forward to seeing his proposed party as this will provide the information I need to help solidify my understanding of his thought process and determine if he truly belongs on this platform. But as it currently stands, I believe him to be town, and am including him on my platform. And again, I wonder, why should anyone vote GK instead of Sandroba if GK is gonna take Sand on his team anyway. Their plans differ only slightly, and most people would probably trust a town sand more to make accurate reads than a town GK. I was then writing a longer post about who I wanted as party leader and why. Somewhere in there was this part about Goodkarma and that I did not understand why he was voting Sandroba. Then I realised that it might be better to ask GK beforehand, show that I don't trust him and then post the longer post. Additionally, I wanted to show him where I came from with my suspiciouns and added that "What do you say about this:" part. However, it was meant to draw a reaction, i did not have a scum read on him at that point, I just wanted to see how he responded. So I posted this: On November 22 2012 18:52 phagga wrote:
@Goodkarma
If you trust Sandro so much, why do you not vote him? If GK thinks Sandro is so townie that you includes him in your team, why should I vote you instead of Sandro?
What do you say to the following: You are scum, you include a town sandro to make his team more townie, hoping to catch more votes like that. Also, after copying the short paragraph in a new post, I started changing the sentences from third person to second person (as I was going to ask GK directly instead of talking about him in 3rd person). I made an error in the second sentence of the first paragraph (it should be "if you think Sandro..."). The reason is that I was doing this in a hurry, I was at work. I had already typed this long post that I wanted to put online, so I hurried to get this short post about GK out. Perhaps that is a reason why I did not word it clear enough, which is possibly why you seem to interpret it as "phagga says GK is scum and Sandro is town", while in reality it was supposed to be a hypothetical question that - should provoke a reaction of GK - should show GK what my fear about his candidature was Then, 3 minutes later, I posted the aforementioned big post, where I discussed who I wanted to vote and why. So, I admit, contradiction is the wrong word. His candidature did not make any sense to me with Sandroba in his team. Also, I know I am not the only one who felt that way, look at this post from prom for example, or risks post here. So you consider rehashing old arguements I've already addressed activity? You do know Hapa has a case against you, and you are continuing to behave as scum in the way highlighted in that case, right? + Show Spoiler +(Not coming up with any new arguement of any kind. Attacking "safe" players who already have cases against them...) eh, I was answering a question hapa asked me. Since when is that a bad thing? Are you actually reading what I post? (posting from phone) Does it matter who it was in reply to? It's rehashing arguments all the same... Here's a thought: Besides me (and obviously Toad), who do you think has the highest chance of being scum and why?
Dude, seriously. you ask If I am aware that Hapa made a case against me as answer to my post who is an answer to Hapas case against me. Your post is nonsensical. Also, since when is defending myself scummy?
+ Show Spoiler +On December 01 2012 02:05 goodkarma wrote:I almost missed it. He linked to a very old case on Hopeless about a page ago... Let's take a look at it: Show nested quote +On November 29 2012 01:32 phagga wrote:On November 28 2012 22:23 strongandbig wrote:
Now, phagga I have a couple of questions for you:
1. As far as I can tell, you changed your mind on your scumread on goodkarma because of the timing of his vote on Sandroba. Could you update that read for us? Given that Sandroba never really responded to Syllo's case or made a real effort to not get himself lynched, I'm hesitant to draw any conclusions from who voted for him when. It's definitely possible that his teammates knew he wasn't going to try very hard, and started bussing him very early. So if you ignore gk's vote on sandro, do you still think he's town or do you want to lynch him again.
2. You said you object to hopeless being in the party. do you think he's scum? What do you think of my stuff on his behavior since the check on him and acro?
3. What is kitaman's alignment and why do you think that?
-snip- 2. I remember going over Hopeless' filter a few days ago and setting him null on my list. Then Hope came up with this strange theorie about what if Toad flips town, followed by TC saying that Acro and Hope are of opposite alignement. Then he wanted to be part of the party to show that he is town, which was a red flag for me. Since then he is marked as scum. Regarding your post, I like the point about his sentence that he will not bring any last minute shenanigans. I mean, this is what everyone expects, why does he feel he has to announce this? seems like he is missing a townie mindest. The "Bring it, bitches" is interesting because he first takes a defensive stance in his answers to TCs case, but then tries to look aggressive with that last sentence. It does not seem authentic, but I don't think it's alignement indicative. -snip- This only adds to the evidence this guy is scum. It is super-lazy to use this as your case. What's more, it was a case he didn't have any conviction with describing. I'm not at all convinced from his case he thinks hopeless is scum.: Let's start with the bolded part.: The opposite alignment issue was already explained. And wanting to be in a party at this point in the game would be suicide for scum. So that only leaves a strange remark about Toad being town... Second paragraph: "Regarding your post, I like the point about his sentence that he will not bring any last minute shenanigans. I mean, this is what everyone expects, why does he feel he has to announce this? seems like he is missing a townie mindest.": How is a "no shenanigans" announcement indicative of only a scum mentality? He needs to elaborate on this point... Third Paragraph: "The "Bring it, bitches" is interesting because he first takes a defensive stance in his answers to TCs case, but then tries to look aggressive with that last sentence. It does not seem authentic, but I don't think it's alignement indicative. " So here, he's saying that what hopeless says isn't genuine, but isn't necessarily scum motivated. In other words, he tells us nothing. So what I get from this post that amounts to any kind of opinion at all is: 1) Hopeless said Toad could be town once, 2) Announcing no shennanigans means Hopeless is scum... Does everyone see how wishy-washy and weak this case is? This is exactly how a scum trying to blend in posts. It is blatantly obvious from stunts like this that phagga is scum.
The post was two days ago. That's once cycle. That's not "very old".
The post was not a case. It was an answer to snb who asked me about my opinion on Hopeless in regard to his case. My comments were related to his case. I have written more about what I think of hopeless here and in the discussion with him here. That is for example the reason why the "bring it bitches" thing is in there: I read it differently than snb, so I wanted to comment on it since he ASKED for my comments.
And only because the opposite alignement stuff is explained I am no longer allowed to talk about it? I am not allowed to describe how I felt about it back when it came up? Even if he would have specifically asked to comment on it?
Seriously, you are grasping at straws here. You have not even correctly read my post, let alone my filter, you did not put the post into context to try to understand what's going on.
you are just trying desperately to discredit me at all cost. You don't care about the truth, you put meanings into my sentences that were not there, you ignore time stamps, exagerate, and try anything to make me look bad.
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Oh hai gaiz. Themed games are fun when setup speculation makes everrrrrrrryone think you're scum.
Syllo and Acro are pushing this idea that I'm scum by process of elimination - that I'm the "answer" to the scum strategy. I agree with the strategy, but you're dead wrong about my alignment. Instead, y'all need to take a look at Phagga. In my mind, he's done absolutely nothing to prove himself as town, yet several players have been inexplicably pushing him as a town read. For example, both Adam and SnB have came out of nowhere to push him as a townie - this doesn't seem strange to you at all?
Now I'm not sure exactly what I can say to defend myself, because all this stuff is speculation garbage that I can't do anything about. In fact I'm kinda disturbed that Syllo, of all people, is more content to rely on setup speculation to scumhunt whilst completely ignoring some huge red flags in Phagga's play.
Regarding Phagga's Responses
I'm not satisfied with them. He didn't sufficiently address why he 180'd on CaveJohnson. He's saying that he marked him as null somewhere between D2 and now without ever mentioning it in the thread. And even if he marked him as null, that doesn't explain why he had no distrust whatsoever for CJ's ability-claim.
And to soapbox on scumhunting a bit, I feel that a lot of scum in non-newbie games can be found by looking for players floating under the radar. I've found a lot of success in recent games looking for players who've given me no reason to think they're town. These "null" players are often scum. Phagga fits this very well, and I'm shocked at how he's being ignored by virtually everyone in the thread.
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On December 01 2012 07:33 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 07:30 Keirathi wrote:
Something else, though: would GreyMisT have made sandro, Toad, AND syllo scum, with Acro 3p? That would be a pretty stacked non-town. It's possible, since the game hasn't really relied on lynching very much, and scum is inherently at a disadvantage when the game revolves around town reads, but I'm not sure that its likely. May I ask, since you've hosted games. You use an rng of some kind I presume, do you ever get a roll where you go "no that's stupid" and re-roll?
Yes.
But, I use an algorithm to roll c9++ games. It would be much harder for something like this where every person is some kind of power role, and you would most likely have to do it by hand. You *COULD* fully random it, but it would probably take multiple tries to get something that seemed fair for both sides.
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Oh @ Phagga
Regarding that whole "GoodKarma Contradiction" thing on the D1 party elections, I have no idea where the hell you're going with it, or how him putting one of his town reads on his party is scummy. You keep saying that people had no reason to vote for GK over Sandroba, but how is that a contradiction on his part? That's just your opinion.
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On December 01 2012 06:47 Clarity_nl wrote:
His anger makes much more sense if he is scum who "got caught" by mechanics, that might be why it felt genuine.
Yes. Being scum is the only possible way I could be angry about this. I'm not just a really fucking frustrated townie. That's inconceivable.
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On December 01 2012 07:30 Keirathi wrote:
Something else, though: would GreyMisT have made sandro, Toad, AND syllo scum, with Acro 3p? That would be a pretty stacked non-town. It's possible, since the game hasn't really relied on lynching very much, and scum is inherently at a disadvantage when the game revolves around town reads, but I'm not sure that its likely.
This also relies on the scumteam having absolutely NO confidence in Sandro's ability to look like town very early in the game. Syllo hopped on the "Sandro doesn't play like this as town" and never left off. It is a very strange bus, when Syllo saying "Sandro's town" would NEVER have caused anybody to lynch him D2, even with so many people claiming they weren't sheeping Syllo.
That is the main reason I think Syllo is not scum, not his membership in the D1 party, which is just extra corroborating evidence.
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On December 01 2012 07:39 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 06:47 Clarity_nl wrote:
His anger makes much more sense if he is scum who "got caught" by mechanics, that might be why it felt genuine. Yes. Being scum is the only possible way I could be angry about this. I'm not just a really fucking frustrated townie. That's inconceivable.
He worded it poorly, but he has a point. It makes exactly as much sense from scum as it does from a townie. That is, it would be genuine either way, and therefor a null tell.
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On December 01 2012 07:39 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 06:47 Clarity_nl wrote:
His anger makes much more sense if he is scum who "got caught" by mechanics, that might be why it felt genuine. Yes. Being scum is the only possible way I could be angry about this. I'm not just a really fucking frustrated townie. That's inconceivable.
Did you ask Greymist if there was an error in your PM?
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To help keep this concise: VE's case is spoilered below:
+ Show Spoiler +On November 30 2012 14:29 VisceraEyes wrote:goodkarmaShow nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:50 goodkarma wrote:On November 21 2012 13:46 Hopeless1der wrote:On November 21 2012 13:41 goodkarma wrote:On November 21 2012 13:36 Hopeless1der wrote:Greetings all. You'll notice that we're currently in 600 AD Guardia. You're also playing a themed game hosted by none other than Greymist. Please keep that in mind. (Hi Mementoss, you're cool too). Basic vote mechanics for this game seem to boil down to -identify town -vote town to lead the party -Profit -Kill Mafia/Lavos -More Profit
What are people's thoughts on claiming that their character belongs to the 600 AD era and selecting the leader based on that. (YOU ONLY CLAIM "600 AD") Possibly selecting the entire party from within the era, assuming enough of a pool emerges. I linked Chronopedia above in case anyone feels the need to check it out. ~17ish native characters from 600 AD. I think our hidden numbers are influenced by the current era, and events can have varying degrees of success or failure depending on which specific players (not just town or scum) are in the party. Come play the setup speculation game with me please! No. Setup speculation is for chumps. I'd like to hear your thoughts on who we should choose for a party leader and why. Choose town. Win events. Kill Lavos. This has already been covered. I don't have any strong townreads yet. So in the meantime, I want to plant some ideas about how the setup works because you can bet your ass its going to matter. Of course it will matter. But talking about how certain deliberately hidden variables could or could not work that are outside our control is a waste of time. The one thing we presently can control is who we choose for our party, and that's where are focus should be. So please stop shitting up the thread advocating setup speculation. Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 15:26 goodkarma wrote:
Keir brings up a couple good points. Perhaps our host could explain?:
Are chosen party members kill-immune?
If not, what happens if scum kill a party member? Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 15:45 goodkarma wrote:On November 21 2012 15:30 Keirathi wrote:On November 21 2012 15:26 goodkarma wrote:
Keir brings up a couple good points. Perhaps our host could explain?:
Are chosen party members kill-immune?
If not, what happens if scum kill a party member? We don't even know anything about HOW the scum kills, other than it doesn't follow the traditional "1 KP = 1 dead". We have an HP value, and have no idea how much HP damage the scum can do in a single cycle, how they will do it, or who they can do it to. But we have HP. Scum must be able to remove it somehow. And if we have let's say a small hidden value score lead over scum, it would be important to know if scum can or cannot off people in the party to tip the scales against us. Especially if a medic-type role exists for town.I feel this is a very relevant and answerable question to ask the host. But I must agree with oats that outside of a response from him it's not a good use of our time to discuss further. Damning setup speculation certainly appears townie, but it becomes less so when one is drawn into a setup-speculation conversation citing setup speculation as the reasoning for it. But don't worry, he's still townie because he agreed with someone else that discussing it further is not a good use of time...right? Right guys? No. Not right. Especially when you add in one of my personal favorite scumtells, bloating his own contributions. He was among the loudest voices D1 shouting "this game isn't about scumhunting it's about townhunting!" While selecting a party leader was the focus of D1, at no point in this game should anyone NOT be scumhunting. Sorry to say it, but it's right there in the name of the game. We're looking for Mafia. But not GK. GK is only interested in looking for townies...which helps in selecting a party leader, sure. But then what? He made it clear early on that hunting scum is not on his agenda. But you know what he did do? Well let's just see! Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 22:30 goodkarma wrote:
For all those who are still distrustful of me:
You are certainly entitled to distrust me. I spent a good portion of the opening of this game discussing mechanics and not really so much reads. However, I would like to point out that I have since then:
1) Established a system of greater transparency for who is selected. It is very likely all we'd discuss is party leader, and not the corresponding parties, if I hadn't stepped in. Further, I have shown exactly why this is the best approach...
2) I have been proactive about demonstrating exactly why it is I have chosen who I have and my line of reasoning. Further, I have been (and continue to be) willing to change my platform if compelling evidence can be brought to my attention that a candidate is a weak choice.
3) The only reason I have pursued a party leader position this cycle is that the alternatives I feel at this point do not have trustworthy platforms. I am not trusting of Kita, nor at this point am I content with sending sandroba.
4) I have actually been active this game... If you were to look at any of my scum games, you would notice that I am not nearly this proactive when I play scum. You have discussed prior how it would be absolutely great if we had a candidate that had an easily recognizable town vs. scum game. Well, your welcome.
I will not be submitting my party until I leave for Thanksgiving lunch/dinner late tomorrow morning. I look forward to hearing your opinions on my party, and replying to them in a few hours. But until then, I'm getting a few hours' rest. Awesome! 4 useless things! I'll just go right down the list. 1) GK was absolutely NOT the reason people started talking about who would be included in the parties. This is a gross skewing of what was happening during D1. It's certainly possible that no one would have mentioned who they were selecting, but he literally says that he's the only reason anyone even mentioned it. He also did not "show exactly why this is the best approach". He didn't even show why he THINKS it's the best approach. He simply stated that he wouldn't be voting for anyone who didn't say exactly who they'd be taking and why, and damned everyone voting for syllo/sand because they weren't being as "transparent" as he was. 2) If he's willing to change his party around, then what the fuck is the point of saying exactly who you're planning to take if you're leader in the first place? What's the point of even SELECTING a leader if you don't want to let them lead? In what way is the leader culpable for his choice of party if it's decided at the same time as the leader anyway and it's a town decision? This is the problem I'm having with his logic, but he rattles it off as some huge accomplishment for town. Good job bro. 3) Ran for leader. Cool. So did Sandroba (scum) and Toad (probable scum). Got anything else? 4) Active. Because, you know...only town are active, and scum only lurk. [/sarcasm] If someone draws attention to their own meta, it's fucking useless. Period. So...bloating his own contributions. Cool. How about a "USELESS LIST MAKING" CHASER?!?!? Show nested quote +On November 28 2012 09:57 goodkarma wrote:
My strongandbig read was in fact in large part due to activity, in addition to the incomplete cases / reads he was bringing up. I was unaware, however, of the severe lack of internet he was experiencing, and will back off of him for now...
In its place I provide a mafia (the game) favorite, a scum suspect shortlist:
1) Iamp - I have a good "gut feel" about this guy I guess you could say. But he still has yet to contribute anything meaningful, which earns him a spot here. Would be willing to give him more time to see if his roleclaim checks out.
2) VE - Shoot him dead. I actually think he might be more likely to be town than scum given his enthusiasm for playing scum. But if an elimination-based approach for finding scum is to work, he has to go. He has not posted enough to make a meaningful read...
3) phagga - Need to reread his filter at some point (but not something I'm focusing on today). He has been pro-town in his contributions, but I can't help but feel he is also "playing it safe" and doing what he can to fly under the radar...
4) Adam - lurker who might need to be shot too.
5) Kita - I'm inclined to believe Marv's read of 3rd party
6) Cave - This guy won't be figured out without getting vigi killed. Shoot first, ask questions later...
7) Z-boson - From my experience with him, he likes to play pretty safe as scum, whereas as town he is rather reckless to the point of being pretty easy to mislynch. He definitely is making his own reads and contributing to thread, but all his reads I would call "safe" ones in that he is targeting almost exclusively lurkers... Null read atm, even after looking into filter.
8) Prox - Tbh I don't know what to do with him. Syllo's input is definitely appreciated, but I don't see him as a strong scum read (closer to null...).
9) Strong - I had a strong scum read based both off meta and on filter. However, with meta differences explained, I'm inclined to give him more of a chance to establish himself as town before coming to conclusions.
10) Toad - Scum
11) Hopeless (maybe) - clearly anti-town, but I'm still not convinced that he's scum. Would even go so far as to say slight town read... This was the post that really made me go look back over GK. A scum suspect list....THAT INCLUDES HALF OF THE FUCKING GAME!!! Nevermind that he wants to shoot me dead because I was inactive. Fine, I can understand that sentiment...but having half the players in the game on a scum suspect list? Really? Why not just say "I'm not interested in looking for scum" and leave it at that? After all, that's what he's been doing ALL GAME LONG anyway. This game is about TOWNHUNTING, not SCUMHUNTING, remember? So why bother at all? My guess is to appear contributory without having to do anything...but your mileage may vary. At this point, I'm most interested in GK dying after Toad, but I intend to thoroughly go over the party that failed last cycle before I vote to lynch anyone (presuming we get another lynch next cycle).
VE's case, as I originally said, has to do with scummy behavior rather than scum motivation. I will briefly address each point of his case.
To summarize, VE's case points were:
1) OMGUS, you speculate too much...
2) OMGUS, knowing the parties upfront is stupid all you need is a good leader
3) OMGUS, meta is useless, and so are lists
To address these:
1) In a THEMED game, I would argue that you'd see more setup speculation than in a standard game. This is NORMAL. I did my fair share of it to be sure, but I have no idea why this is scum motivated behavior.
As for "embellishing my contributions," to the extent of my knowledge I was indeed the first to propose full disclosure of the chosen party. Maybe others suggested it, or it was super-obvious... The fact of the matter at hand is that both town and scum can have egos, so if I am to come across as thinking I am more important than I may actually be I don't see how that is a scum tell. As for the reasoning for proposing the open party structure, transparency is the reason. It's written right there by you, and it is a very valid one. A transparent atmosphere is a pro-town atmosphere.
Add to that that this isn't a game of pure scumhunting like most are. I am not the only one guilty of not scumhunting 24/7, as this is a THEMED GAME and a different approach is required.
2) Greater transparency. Completely self-explanatory. By knowing the party up-front, far more information is provided than just electing a leader since everyone has to justify why each member of the party is a good choice... Already explained this...
3) If you feel meta is useless that's up to you. The same can be said about lists. But quite frankly, my last list post alone, which provided a detailed read of everyone in the game and pointed out likely scum, provided ten times more useful information than all of your posts (to date) combined. You have lurked the shit out of this game, and if you want to show you're town you sure as hell better step it up.
You feel I've "bloated my contributions" and that I haven't scum-hunted as much as you'd like. And just to be clear, this is scummy, rather than scum-motivated behavior + Show Spoiler +(exactly as described in my list post...)
I won't say that I've played the strongest town game to date (I haven't), and that really seems to be all you're trying to say in this case: OMGUS. But I have done my best to step it up. I have provided a rather full-fledged list just recently, and from it have deduced top scum suspects.
If there's anything else, let me know. But part of the reason for not getting to this right away is that I dedicated most of my focus recently to getting out my reads. Addressing cases where I need to repeat myself, or: where no real indication is provided that I am acting with scum motivation (rather than scummy, as is mentioned here), were lower priority for me.
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On December 01 2012 07:41 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 07:39 Hapahauli wrote:On December 01 2012 06:47 Clarity_nl wrote:
His anger makes much more sense if he is scum who "got caught" by mechanics, that might be why it felt genuine. Yes. Being scum is the only possible way I could be angry about this. I'm not just a really fucking frustrated townie. That's inconceivable. Did you ask Greymist if there was an error in your PM?
Nope. I'll try, but I doubt it will go anywhere.
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On December 01 2012 07:37 Hapahauli wrote:
Oh @ Phagga
Regarding that whole "GoodKarma Contradiction" thing on the D1 party elections, I have no idea where the hell you're going with it, or how him putting one of his town reads on his party is scummy. You keep saying that people had no reason to vote for GK over Sandroba, but how is that a contradiction on his part? That's just your opinion.
*sigh*
On December 01 2012 00:19 phagga wrote:
So, I admit, contradiction is the wrong word. His candidature did not make any sense to me with Sandroba in his team.
Why the hell are people not reading my posts? It stands right there that contradiction was the wrong word, and it explains how I felt about it, and why, and it even shows that I am not the only one that thought this way. Just go back an read it.
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hapa your one of the few players we have no idea about your role is there a reason?
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EPT
