EPTOn November 30 2012 10:42 Oatsmaster wrote:
Yeah that makes sense Acro,
Kita do you want to share?
Yeah that makes sense Acro,
Kita do you want to share?
I have no connection with the counter.
Chrono Trigger Mafia - Page 256
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
I have no connection with the counter. | ||
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Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
do you have something else to add? | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On November 30 2012 10:53 Acrofales wrote: I was talking about your original case. There was 0 mention of his shoddy vote on Drazerk except in passing. That was the case that took you "so long to make" and everybody was ignoring. I had a little mark on Phagga for doing noting D2 except placing a throwaway vote on Drazerk. Looking back, that vote looks even worse in retrospect, so bringing that up is good. However, your first case was just plain terrible. There was very little that requires a scum perspective to explain his D1. In fact, I had him pegged as a slight town read after D1. The "bussing" of Sandroba also is a null read. He was the umpteenth person to sheep Syllo for no-to-very-little reasoning. I have explained what I think of Sandroba votes for no-to-little-reasoning in both my discussion of risk.nuke and my discussion of GK. I feel no need to do so again. I do feel that CJ was complete and utter lynch bait D2 (as Drazerk often is) and scum could easily jump on him (assuming he's not scum himself, which is always a possibility until the endgame post is made or he dies and flips). It's like any other "easy" mislynch that scum like to push, like Kush, Grush, BM, Bluelightz or Risen (yes, I went there). Therefore a Drazerk vote with no reasoning whatsoever is pretty bad. Of course, town also vote for the easy lynchbait, which is why they are so easy for scum: they automatically draw town votes with their play. + Show Spoiler [Drazerk history] + The main difference between Drazerk and the rest of that list is that Drazerk actually doesn't get mislynched (or lynched at all for that matter). He has some magic quality that makes him look terrible and then slip off everybody's scumometer. Well it's good that you atleast agree with me. I thought I communicated his stance on CJ pretty well in my original case, but w/e. But I do think my original case plays to this idea that Phagga is sitting back and blending in. | ||
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Next, onto Acro. Before you attack me for spending so much focus on him, hear me out. For people who are calling him a pro-town, third party player, these types of roles rarely exist. The only one that comes to mind was a rival role that had to kill a mafia player. First off, we don’t know that he is third party. Secondly, a survivor is not pro-town. If we don’t win by day X, the survivor simply aligns himself with the mafia team. The mafia team won’t kill him because he is an ally, the town won’t kill him because the mafia are higher priority. It would be foolish to trust a player with an alternate win condition. We have a great opportunity here to improve our position. By putting him in a corner with TC’s check, he was forced to claim for survival. Why is town not using this to our advantage? Force him to roleclaim, force him to reveal his win condition, force him to use his actions the way we see fit. People may attack me for wanting to consider him a lynch candidate, but here is my logic. When a claimed survivor with a hidden role and win condition is threatened with a lynch, he has two choices: His first option is to take his secrets to the grave and fail to meet his win condition. This wouldn’t make sense. His second option is to claim for survival, allowing us to evaluate the additional information. With his third party claim, he is banking on the fact that an organized town does not exploit his position. Why should we care if his “hunter” learns his identity? That’s less kp aimed at the town and potentially another third party player removed from the game. Maybe if he's willing to be more transparent we could even see if we could meet our goals mutually. I know it's cruel treat Acro this way, but its something that benefits our position. The only way we can follow through with this plan though is if I have town’s support to push through the ultimatum that he becomes transparent or die. I have devoted a lot of my time in the thread to opposing Cave, but I fail to see how that is a point against me. Not only has he shown little interest in helping town, he has attempted to deceive us. Why keep a compulsive liar around? He has lied about his success modifier, he has lied about not being able to change a submitted night action, he has lied about his health. Having a history of being anti-town is no excuse to continue to play anti-town. Now onto my thoughts about his claimed night action. First off, what is his motivation to claim the shot in the thread? How does telling the mafia that he is going to shoot them for 700+ damage increase his chances of success? If I'm town and have this deadly ability, I'd act first and claim later. Upon resolution, Toad confirms the damage dealt by cave. I'm not going to read into an outed scum's post all that much, but this comes off as odd to me. Why provide validity to a vig shot? Finally, we have the fact that Cave claims to have taken reduced damage during two different cycles. A player who claims to have 27 abilities (which has a 99% chance of being a lie) obviously wouldn't be able to use multiple abilities per cycle, especially when we're talking about dealing 700+ damage. So this means that he is either lying about shooting toad or another player is protecting Cave. Marv already flipped as a town aligned 50% medic. Why would there be a second one targeting Cave? He claims to have taken no damage, I claim to have shot him. Things aren't adding up. Onto risk.... On November 24 2012 20:43 risk.nuke wrote: Scummy post from a scummy player. On November 26 2012 01:24 risk.nuke wrote: Kitaman had done squat all game which is more then enough to justify the title of scummy behaviour when he showed up with a pisspoor case against me. On November 29 2012 05:59 risk.nuke wrote: Kitaman accomplishments was a dubious troll campaign and you question why I was under the impression he was scummy. After I posted my case against him, he responded quite aggressively and has called me scum on three different occasions, without providing actual evidence. Now lets look at his defense of GK: On November 29 2012 22:23 risk.nuke wrote: Goodkarmas behavior (not actions) when I invited him I have an impossible time to make sense from as a scum perspective. I could understand third party but that is near impossible from how insanely weak a third party he would be, and scum or third party wouldn't shoot at CJ! On November 29 2012 22:45 risk.nuke wrote: He aimed at you cycle 1. And no third party wouldn't and he can't be third party because his role is to weak and doesn't fit the profile. Scum wouldn't shoot you over likely townies. There is a contradiction here. I claimed to have shot Cave on day one. I post a case against risk and he responds that I'm scum. He places no value on the target of my night hit. However, when addressing GK, he can't possibly be mafia due to the same exact action. There is a double standard here and his line of thought shows no consistency. Masoning protown players when you have the ability to damage them makes no sense to me. If you're going to be putting together a mason circle, why are you targeting players like Keirathi, when syllo or marv is alive? You have a scum read on me, have the ability to harm me, but choose not to? If you have a method of damage output, but don't trust you reads, why isn't toad being invited? At least that's something that would be a sure thing. Risk had shown little interest in pushing a anti-town read against a player. You have to address him directly in thread if you want an opinion. I still have a scum read. I'm not sure I buy VE's protection claim on Dieno. We know the mafia team are likely going to be targeting him for a night kill. His excuse for visiting him is pretty convenient. Why wait unless night four to target him with a 25% heal? Wouldn't it have made more sense to use it earlier on. VE has claimed to be having RL issues and I can sympathize with that, but its apparent that he is having trouble keeping up with the thread and is already replacing a low-activity player. If he keeps up the current activity level with his lack of strong reads, I'd be in favor of killing him. phagga has been pretty transparent and comes off as sincere. I currently consider him town. In response to Prom's PBPA on GK, there are several things that I don't put much value into. I'm fine with a player directing blues, I don't really see his post about kp as a scumslip, and threatening to shoot lurkers is reasonable. The things that I'm looking at is his presence in the failed party, his name claim of an obscure character, his day one treatment towards syllo/sandro, and any evidence towards scumhunting. Prom, you deserve a better response and unfortunately I've already used up most of my free time tonight on the rest of the post. I want to be able to look through GK's filter first before coming to a conclusion on this one. Looking at a flipped Toad will be my first priority tomorrow. Afterwards, I'll try to take a better look at GK and Hapahauli. Onto party selection... I don't like Keirathi as a pick for leader of as a member of the group. He was included in the group that failed and the reason I've been pretty content to overlook him was his success during the first mission. Now that this no longer applies, I see no reason to take a risk with him. He claims to have a low sucess modifier, but it is possible this is just a cover for a negative modifier. I'm not going to list him as a lynch candidate yet, but we have safer choices. I'll still throw myself in the conversation for party selection even if its unlikely I'll be chosen. Not a single player has a mafia read on me. I'm not really sure why I haven't been considered during any cycle. My proposed party: Clarity Dieno Syllo Oats You could even submit this team now in case you don't remember 24 hours from now!  | ||
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Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
My abilities rely on my being in them. Otherwise, I'm just a VT. Hell, not even a VT; WORSE than a VT because people don't want to include me to parties even though they believe that I am town. So Keir, why did you publicly claim you had a low success value?!? Well, for one, it's the truth. But, on day 1, someone asked "Why would anyone who is a townie not want to be in the party?" and I just answered honestly because I had already been thinking about it. I wasn't intending to claim, but it was obvious in hindsight that I had information about party success. At the time, I was under the impression that it would take 2 scum party members for a party to fail an event, and I wasn't sure that 2 townies + my low HSM + a scum would succeed or fail, and I didn't particularly want to test it. And if an event DID fail that I was in, it would have been hard to come in after the fact and say "Wait, I'm town! I have a low success modifier though..." Anyways screw this role. It's no fun to be a less-than-VT in a game full of neat roles. | ||
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
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Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
On November 30 2012 11:59 kitaman27 wrote: That's what I'm proposing under the assumption that I'm not selected. why? | ||
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Because I'm being realistic and felt that pushing other objectives was a better use of my time. If clarity has a town read on me and wants to include me in his party, I'd prefer myself, dieno, clarity, and oats. Any thoughts on any of the other points? | ||
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Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
On November 30 2012 12:12 kitaman27 wrote: Because I'm being realistic and felt that pushing other objectives was a better use of my time. If clarity has a town read on me and wants to include me in his party, I'd prefer myself, dieno, clarity, and oats. Any thoughts on any of the other points? I'm pretty hung up on the fact that you called a party before we have one selected. Since we need to disguise the party from scum and make sure they aren't confidant who we are taking. | ||
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On November 30 2012 12:26 Promethelax wrote: I'm pretty hung up on the fact that you called a party before we have one selected. Since we need to disguise the party from scum and make sure they aren't confidant who we are taking. I'll give the mafia team a hint: It's probably not going to include Cave, Toad or Acro. Mafia is going to shoot a pro-town player regardless of whether or not I listed who I think should be included. They know the identity of the leader based on the voting and have the option of focus firing him. Clarity or whoever is elected can take my exact party or swap another player in, but I fail to see why that makes you unable to comment on anything else. | ||
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Dienosore
Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
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Adam4167
Australia1426 Posts
On November 30 2012 05:16 Acrofales wrote: I am getting a very marginal town read on GK. It's perfectly possible that between Keir and me the party failed. That makes GK an unfortunate casualty. The way he has been playing is definitely not strong town, and I really want to see him step it up, but I don't get a clear scum vibe from him either. There are, imho, scummier candidates who could serve as the "second" lynch target. GK: please answer the questions all the same. Explaining your thought process can only help you, if you are in fact town. I agree, I find his reaction to all the heat recently does not line up with how I expect a scum to respond. Z-BosoN, on the other hand. His most recent response has done nothing to change my mind. Take a look at his filter next please. I plan to treat his replacement with the same level of mistrust as I have him, we will not have a repeat of Mario MM. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
On November 21 2012 13:50 goodkarma wrote: Of course it will matter. But talking about how certain deliberately hidden variables could or could not work that are outside our control is a waste of time. The one thing we presently can control is who we choose for our party, and that's where are focus should be. So please stop shitting up the thread advocating setup speculation. On November 21 2012 15:26 goodkarma wrote: Keir brings up a couple good points. Perhaps our host could explain?: Are chosen party members kill-immune? If not, what happens if scum kill a party member? On November 21 2012 15:45 goodkarma wrote: But we have HP. Scum must be able to remove it somehow. And if we have let's say a small hidden value score lead over scum, it would be important to know if scum can or cannot off people in the party to tip the scales against us. Especially if a medic-type role exists for town. I feel this is a very relevant and answerable question to ask the host. But I must agree with oats that outside of a response from him it's not a good use of our time to discuss further. Damning setup speculation certainly appears townie, but it becomes less so when one is drawn into a setup-speculation conversation citing setup speculation as the reasoning for it. But don't worry, he's still townie because he agreed with someone else that discussing it further is not a good use of time...right? Right guys? No. Not right. Especially when you add in one of my personal favorite scumtells, bloating his own contributions. He was among the loudest voices D1 shouting "this game isn't about scumhunting it's about townhunting!" While selecting a party leader was the focus of D1, at no point in this game should anyone NOT be scumhunting. Sorry to say it, but it's right there in the name of the game. We're looking for Mafia. But not GK. GK is only interested in looking for townies...which helps in selecting a party leader, sure. But then what? He made it clear early on that hunting scum is not on his agenda. But you know what he did do? Well let's just see! On November 22 2012 22:30 goodkarma wrote: For all those who are still distrustful of me: You are certainly entitled to distrust me. I spent a good portion of the opening of this game discussing mechanics and not really so much reads. However, I would like to point out that I have since then: 1) Established a system of greater transparency for who is selected. It is very likely all we'd discuss is party leader, and not the corresponding parties, if I hadn't stepped in. Further, I have shown exactly why this is the best approach... 2) I have been proactive about demonstrating exactly why it is I have chosen who I have and my line of reasoning. Further, I have been (and continue to be) willing to change my platform if compelling evidence can be brought to my attention that a candidate is a weak choice. 3) The only reason I have pursued a party leader position this cycle is that the alternatives I feel at this point do not have trustworthy platforms. I am not trusting of Kita, nor at this point am I content with sending sandroba. 4) I have actually been active this game... If you were to look at any of my scum games, you would notice that I am not nearly this proactive when I play scum. You have discussed prior how it would be absolutely great if we had a candidate that had an easily recognizable town vs. scum game. Well, your welcome. I will not be submitting my party until I leave for Thanksgiving lunch/dinner late tomorrow morning. I look forward to hearing your opinions on my party, and replying to them in a few hours. But until then, I'm getting a few hours' rest. Awesome! 4 useless things! I'll just go right down the list. 1) GK was absolutely NOT the reason people started talking about who would be included in the parties. This is a gross skewing of what was happening during D1. It's certainly possible that no one would have mentioned who they were selecting, but he literally says that he's the only reason anyone even mentioned it. He also did not "show exactly why this is the best approach". He didn't even show why he THINKS it's the best approach. He simply stated that he wouldn't be voting for anyone who didn't say exactly who they'd be taking and why, and damned everyone voting for syllo/sand because they weren't being as "transparent" as he was. 2) If he's willing to change his party around, then what the fuck is the point of saying exactly who you're planning to take if you're leader in the first place? What's the point of even SELECTING a leader if you don't want to let them lead? In what way is the leader culpable for his choice of party if it's decided at the same time as the leader anyway and it's a town decision? This is the problem I'm having with his logic, but he rattles it off as some huge accomplishment for town. Good job bro. 3) Ran for leader. Cool. So did Sandroba (scum) and Toad (probable scum). Got anything else? 4) Active. Because, you know...only town are active, and scum only lurk. [/sarcasm] If someone draws attention to their own meta, it's fucking useless. Period. So...bloating his own contributions. Cool. How about a "USELESS LIST MAKING" CHASER?!?!? On November 28 2012 09:57 goodkarma wrote: My strongandbig read was in fact in large part due to activity, in addition to the incomplete cases / reads he was bringing up. I was unaware, however, of the severe lack of internet he was experiencing, and will back off of him for now... In its place I provide a mafia (the game) favorite, a scum suspect shortlist: 1) Iamp - I have a good "gut feel" about this guy I guess you could say. But he still has yet to contribute anything meaningful, which earns him a spot here. Would be willing to give him more time to see if his roleclaim checks out. 2) VE - Shoot him dead. I actually think he might be more likely to be town than scum given his enthusiasm for playing scum. But if an elimination-based approach for finding scum is to work, he has to go. He has not posted enough to make a meaningful read... 3) phagga - Need to reread his filter at some point (but not something I'm focusing on today). He has been pro-town in his contributions, but I can't help but feel he is also "playing it safe" and doing what he can to fly under the radar... 4) Adam - lurker who might need to be shot too. 5) Kita - I'm inclined to believe Marv's read of 3rd party 6) Cave - This guy won't be figured out without getting vigi killed. Shoot first, ask questions later... 7) Z-boson - From my experience with him, he likes to play pretty safe as scum, whereas as town he is rather reckless to the point of being pretty easy to mislynch. He definitely is making his own reads and contributing to thread, but all his reads I would call "safe" ones in that he is targeting almost exclusively lurkers... Null read atm, even after looking into filter. 8) Prox - Tbh I don't know what to do with him. Syllo's input is definitely appreciated, but I don't see him as a strong scum read (closer to null...). 9) Strong - I had a strong scum read based both off meta and on filter. However, with meta differences explained, I'm inclined to give him more of a chance to establish himself as town before coming to conclusions. 10) Toad - Scum 11) Hopeless (maybe) - clearly anti-town, but I'm still not convinced that he's scum. Would even go so far as to say slight town read... This was the post that really made me go look back over GK. A scum suspect list....THAT INCLUDES HALF OF THE FUCKING GAME!!! Nevermind that he wants to shoot me dead because I was inactive. Fine, I can understand that sentiment...but having half the players in the game on a scum suspect list? Really? Why not just say "I'm not interested in looking for scum" and leave it at that? After all, that's what he's been doing ALL GAME LONG anyway. This game is about TOWNHUNTING, not SCUMHUNTING, remember? So why bother at all? My guess is to appear contributory without having to do anything...but your mileage may vary. At this point, I'm most interested in GK dying after Toad, but I intend to thoroughly go over the party that failed last cycle before I vote to lynch anyone (presuming we get another lynch next cycle). | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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Djodref
France3332 Posts
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Djodref
France3332 Posts
What do you think about officialy taking Dieno and me in your party and not disclose the fourth member ? Dieno is going to be alive tomorrow, you can trust me on this. If I'm a party member, hopefully I'll get protection and survive as well to succeed on the event and keep on using my imb4 ability. According to some crumbs I think I saw, you should be all right. Only one member is going to be hidden and the mafia would be lucky if they hit him dead. | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16627 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain17701 Posts
On November 30 2012 17:42 syllogism wrote: Acro or whoever can you stop beating up the poor frog. I don't see what's the rush, just let mafia finish him off Not me, officer. I believe him when he says his wincon is with town. He also has nothing to do with my own wincon. I have no reason to shoot him. Why do you think the kp on dino is coming from some source other than scum? | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17701 Posts
On November 30 2012 19:09 Oatsmaster wrote: Djo, Why should clarity take you as opposed to the party members before? Why do you think you're a better choice than Chronicler? Also if you assure us dino will be alive, why not just stick with the tried and tested people? I find the reasoning here strange. You also claiming you get a role related boost from being on the party? | ||
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