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The ethics of Suicide
Martyrdom
- the suffering of death on account of adherence to a cause and especially to one's religious faith
- extreme suffering; torment.
This is the first in a series examining the ethics of suicide to provoke a discussion regarding one of the most profound decisions a conscious living being could make – suicide. To consciously decide not to exist anymore is an extremely deep and difficult to tackle problem, further mystified with the uncertainties and fears of the human experience immediately prior to and after the moment of death (and hypothesis’ or conjectures of the afterlife – which in itself cannot be disproved as subjective experience and observation of it is impossible).
As with all moral debates where discussion has to be centered around assumptions which are not universally accepted, there is no right or wrong answer. There are only logically coherent systems of thought based on assumptions which are hypothetical imperatives. Thus please refrain from degrading the discussion into ad hominem attacks, draw your arguments from establishing patterns of logic and empirical evidence.
This discussion is particularly pertaining to the suicide attacks (or “Martydom”) conducted, promoted, and perpetuated by Palestinian women (notably, mothers) in the Gaza Strip as a reactionary (and many will argue, incendiary) terrorist attacks against the Israeli population. There has been many notable instances which have gone widely reported by the Western media in the past, and a quick google search will turn up a lot of material on the matter. For the purpose of discussion I’ve selected a few cases.
Mariam Farahat (Umm Nidal – or mother of ‘Nidal’, meaning ‘struggle’ or ‘effort’) – One of Hamas’ political candidates who was elected in the 2006 Palestinian legislative election. Who has openly helped, praised and expressed joy at three of her six son’ suicide attacks against Israel. Notably being filmed advising her 17 year old son Muhammad Farhat’s suicide attack against Civilians in a school Jewish settlement of Atzmona, which killed 5 and wounded 23.
Footage of the Mar. 2002 video
December 2005 interview.
Sana Aida - An official of the Palestinian Ministry of Social Affairs explains that mothers
should teach their children to celebrate the death of their brother’s Shahada (Martyrdom) as a wedding.
- Explaination: “Shahada” is a generalized term meaning to believe purely without suspicion, which is the name of the Islamic creed. Notably Shahada is being used here homogenously with affirming one’s faith in Islam by making the ultimate sacrifice for one’s beliefs where no suspicion could exist. The notion of the “wedding” comes from the Islamic belief that males who ascend or achieve Paradise will receive 72 virgin maids (which is often debated as a common misnomer and manipulative translation). The root of which comes from the term “Houri” meaning pure companions of equal age who joins those who ascend to paradise in combined ecstasy and awareness of God.
There are innumerous examples of active endorsements not simply from governing bodies or terrorist groups, but from isolated individuals with no previous political affiliation for members of their own family (and also themselves) to commit suicide attacks / bombings on the Israeli civilian and military installations / populations. Anything ranging from facebook pages, to TV programming targeted at children example 1, example 2, to interviews of children who themselves affirm these views.
A lot of the relevant footage is hosted by an organization called Palestinian Media Watch or PMW which is an Israeli NGO which collects and documents incitement and humanitarian concerns in the Palestinian media. Which in itself is also depicted as an organization with a specific political agenda tied to the Israeli government, the partial and slanted nature of this organization to provide a specific narrative is clear. However the collections of video and evidence themselves remain unaltered, is not displayed in a manner which alters its original context and is open for international inspection. The organization and its archives can be found here:
http://www.palwatch.org/
Numerous documentaries and articles done by differing parties exist on this specific issue, I will list some here and I will diversify the political slant / agenda of my sources and you can draw your own conclusions.
Documentary shorts by vice, an unapologetically opinionated individual source (with a slight leftist slant).
http://www.vice.com/en_ca/the-vice-guide-to-travel/plo-boy-scouts-of-beirut
http://www.vice.com/en_ca/vice-news/palestine-vs-israel-martyr-tv
The Making of a Martyr, a 2006 film made by human rights attorney and Canadian director Brooke Goldstein.
http://www.snagfilms.com/films/title/making_of_a_martyr
Article from NPR
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5290103
National Geographic interview
Article from the Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/dec/05/gender.israel
Article from Time Magazine
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1617542,00.html
Two articles from the New York times, time lapsed from 1995 to 2012 for comparison
1995
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/01/25/world/palestinian-martyrs-defiant-and-so-willing.html
2012
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/01/world/middleeast/israel-in-gesture-repatriates-bodies-of-91-palestinians.html?_r=0
List of Palestinian Martyrs since the 2000 Intifada, hosted by Palestinian Human rights monitoring group (founded 1996 by prominent Palestinians including members of the Palestinian Legislative Council which is the Legislative arm of the Palestinian authority). 6759 dead from Sept. 29, 2000 to March 21, 2010.
http://www.phrmg.org/aqsa/general_list_of_martyers_during_al-qsa_intifada_English.htm
A list of prominent suicide bombing attacks can also be found here (804 fatalies from 1989 to 2008):
So why is this relevant to the discussion of suicide? When these appear to be extreme cases of human behavior which we often discard as outliers of our otherwise civil behavior in our mundane day to day grocery bill lives? Well because it’s an extremely good test case which provides the necessary components to understand almost every aspect of the suicidal drive / motivation. We can think of these extreme situations as impulse responses (from mathematics) where one aspect of a specific phenomenon is exacerbated to such a degree that we can pinpoint the internal mechanics and establish a pattern of logic to understand why people choose to act the way they do.
The angle of superstition.
- Palestinians are committing suicide attacks with the belief of attaining Shahada and a desirable afterlife based on a superstition system.
Superstition and the associated exploitation of man’s primal fears of the unknown and insecure, the most notable examples of which include our social standing, our sexuality, our purpose in life, and most significantly the notion of the afterlife have been the greatest force in dividing what appears to be coherent rational behavior with what is insane or incomprehensible. For the purpose of discussion here we are not limiting superstition to only subjects with religious affiliation, but simply any assumption or logic construct that we as individuals or as a collective are forced or willing to accept without understanding.
So for example, a child may be forced into a situation of superstitious belief in the abilities of his/her parents and authority figures for the purpose of survival, or in the mechanisms of scientific constructs that he does not have the tools or knowledge to understand, yet is capable of understanding these accepted concepts and overturning a previous superstition. Superstition is very much a necessary part of modern life as it is simply not possible for any individual human being to understand every aspect and detail of the world and internalize them in a coherent logic structure, as living beings with priorities we are often forced to accept certain inevitabilities based on empirical evidence, in particular to this discussion the inevitability of death and uncertainty of the afterlife.
The notion of the afterlife and promises of an euphoric, untroubled or pure state of being after one affirms in a specific superstitious belief system has been used as a motivating factor of suicide and self-sacrifice since the dawn of human civilization; ranging from Mayan human sacrifice, to the slogans of soldiers and armies of all religious affiliations (including modern personality cults), to specific sects of modern day Christian evangelicalism which calls for the end of the world in their own life time via apocalyptic imagery similar to ones of nuclear detonations.
The fundamental motivation always includes an appeal to divine authority, knowledge and direction of one’s purpose both in life and beyond, as well as a projected value of one’s state of being which is unattainable, unfeasible, or unimaginable in the physical universe given the technology of the times. When it comes down to it, all human beings are fearful of death and the unknown, and we all seek purpose and meaning in our actions, the only difference is the degree of susceptibility and will of the individual. Thus the appeals of superstition are always present in any individual, be it an irrational belief in an established religious bureaucracy, or indeed an irrational belief that the universe is absolutely comprehensible to human beings (which is a very common assumption of naturalists and atheists).
The manipulative usage of government media and propaganda in the Palestinian media cases are undeniable, but what is more fundamentally disturbing is the fact that individuals are capable (empirically evident) of convincing themselves of a specific superstitious doctrine regardless of previous creed, education, or intelligence, to commit suicide for an unfounded and unprovable basis of assumptions. Where one might scorn and laugh off the ideas of an afterlife populated by an arbituary number of virgin partners with a distinctly sexist depiction of gender roles in the beliefs of one person, yet then dedicate their life to the teachings of another promised afterlife populated by manipulative imagery which is the by-product of centuries of bureaucratic changes and evolving ideology, and die for it all the same.
The angle of nationalism and self-glorification
- Hamas and the PLO (historically) have called upon Palestinians to commit acts of suicide attacks for their country / land / people, employing government propaganda and nationalistic jingoism.
The nationalism angel flows from the previous argument as it is essentially a superstitious belief in the ability, ethics, morality, or factual correctness of a nation state governing system, be it in specific individual leaders or an ambiguous societal goal which is championed by the nation state system. The nationalism ideology commits a person to commit to the ultimate sacrifice for one’s country, people, or political representation, seemingly for the assumed collective goal of their society which is coherent with the individual’s own interests.
This is by no means exclusive to the imagery or verbal persuasion used by terrorist organizations, it is fundamental in the propaganda and popular culture of almost any given country at any given time. Take your pick of media depicting military conflict or extreme human environments, and you can find many instances where self-sacrifice, suicide, and voluntarily moving towards one’s death is glorified. The contexts of these media may range from movies, games, literature, music, architecture, or even political and religious bodies themselves (cults). Even more striking of which is when said glorifying takes place in the place of entertainment with a purpose to arouse or evoke visceral joy.
This is so deep set in past and modern culture that it is almost assumed verbatim that dying for one’s country is “honourable” or “heroic”, it is as deep set as the definitions of virtue and bravery and the ethics systems which base themselves upon the performance of an individual bases on these parameters. We still across the world glorify and decorate the feats of notable self-sacrifice in our education systems and popular literature, often decorating and recognizing the feats of members who explicitly committed suicide in the name of a “national” goal.
The common argument made against the critics of extreme actions based on nationalism is that an individual should have the ability and choice to live and die for the values that he/she believes in, and that when it comes to defense of one’s own livelihood or the interests of valued family members or societal attachments it is a display of bravery to be fearless and protective of those you care about. Often overlooking two fundamental assumptions, that:
1. The interests of the governing system is synonymous with the interests of the individual, and that
2. The actions of self-sacrifice must / should be glamorized and rewarded without exception.
The reality of the situation is that there are very few instances in history where the national system actually represented the interests of any significant portions of the population outside of the ruling class, let alone the majority. And those actions of self-sacrifice are often misconstrued, ineffective, and unjustifiable when taken out of context. Yet still the ideals of “dying for one’s country” or “dying for one’s people” are still used routinely to justify suicide and purposeful self-destruction.
The angle of depression and social pressure
- Palestinians are among the most depressed populations in the world due to ongoing warfare, societal instability, lack of prospects for the future, and lack of identity.
(This may not be immediately obvious so I will provide statistical studies from various sources and polls)
http://imeu.net/engine2/uploads/depression_press_release.pdf
http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/04DB1D2976CA606B8525758B0060480B
http://isp.sagepub.com/content/58/3/315.abstract
Perhaps the angle that those in the first world can most sympathize with, when an individual is placed in extreme circumstances with fear of the future and pressured by society to perform and live in a specific manner. Individuals often turn to self-harm or suicide as a means of seeking emotional gratification or a solution where real solutions are not seemingly present. The lack of prospects of the future / identity can be found present in any generation in varying parts of the world, and as a social phenomenon is much more relevant than many of us would like to believe.
Some examples which you can readily look up include the youth of Japan / South Korea, who despite being materially satisfied and having a sustainable standard of living, have very high rates of suicide due to social pressure and a lack of cultural or personal identity beyond aspirational media outlets which they cannot obtain. Similar examples exist in the developed western world, to lesser degrees but still relevant, say for example Blackpool in Britain due to degraded commercial culture and a lack of direction or prospects for the younger generation. Another good example is areas of Southern Russia / Siberia where industry has degraded and the youth have no prospects of employment or livelihood.
Accompanying these phenomenons is also the rampant use of narcotics and other illegal substances to obtain said emotional high and as escapism to avoid social pressure, it is apparent from the behaviors of individuals that you can establish a causality relationship which links these environmental traits to rates of suicide, depression, and self-harm both empirically and logically.
The angle of existential value
- Hypothesis: The Palestinian youth are finding little in life for themselves to believe or find value in other than the presented courses of action by authority figures, community figures, and family elders; which then contributes to a disregard for self-safety and a susceptibility to suicide in an attempt to create value where other avenues do not exist.
This is a much more difficult to quantify argument as it pertains to an individual’s appreciation of the world and finding value in his/her actions. If a person cannot find appreciation or value in the present, especially if options are denied to him/her by social structures and environmental phenomenon, then it becomes very difficult to motivate him/herself to continue struggling indefinitely with no clear goal or value in his/her actions on one hand, as well as making externally presented options with a given narrative and projected value much more desirable.
As a person living in Palestine (especially in Gaza), employment and education are almost entirely sporadic and undependable, means of leaving the country and seeking life elsewhere is also barred by Israeli controlled borders and lack of tangible or reliable avenues of seeking refugee status or gaining admittance into other countries. Many first adopt the mindset that their present situation is hopeless, and that the only alternative to wallowing in self-despair and inactivity is to commit suicide attacks against Israeli territories.
In this respect suicide is simply a means to an end, not an end to itself, were the Palestinians better armed, trained, or had sufficient political power and grounds to resolve the situation with-out resorting to suicidal attempts to dissuade Israeli influence then they wouldn’t need to. A hopeless mindset can also directly lead to suicidal tendencies as it contributes to depression and lack of attachment to the world and its events.
The angle of terror(ism)
- Palestinians and their governing structures have used suicide attacks as a means to terrorize Israeli populations, notably not in destructiveness or potential of harm of the attacks, but in complete abandon of the martyr’s own safety and life to achieve a goal.
“ the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives” (28 C.F.R. Section 0.85). - FBI’s definition of terrorism
Suicide or self-harm as a social mechanism to strike fear and terrorize people by infringing on their personal stakes in your well-being or in their perception of morality and livelihood is a very ancient strategy that’s been deployed by numerous cultures from varying back grounds.
- The concept of the “shock” trooper and suicide squads who are intentionally sent into impossible situations to destroy the moral of the enemy (if they fail their preset objective) is such a common military strategy that most established armies have historically had specific segments or divisions dedicated to creating such effects.
- People who placed under emotional duress and aggravation where they actively blame one specific party for the faults in their life yet have no ways of actually impeaching on that person’s interests sometimes choose to harm themselves in hope of a negative emotional response (or attention) from that party.
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It is much more terrifying (and also alienating) to be facing an enemy who doesn’t resemble your own sensibilities or basic logical assumptions. The actions of suicide bombings are fundamentally much more frightening to domestic populaces not due to its destructive potential, but in the fact that portions of a sheltered domestic populace cannot comprehend or rationalize the need or will of a person to commit suicide for the express purpose of harming them.
The implications of this is that someone’s emotional response (in particularly, hatred or loathing) to a situation can be powerful enough to drive them to forfeit their own life just to send an ambiguous message which often never achieves the goals of the individual – a suicide which ultimately could be completely inconsequential to the outcome of the conflict.
The following sections focus on other issues of concern pertaining to the Israeli / Palestinian conflict which will become relevant if you engage in discussion of this topic.
The causality of hatred
- Xenophobia, religious intolerance, sovereignty and land disputes, legality vs. morality.
The fact that we cannot ignore is that both parties in the dispute are exhibiting extremist behaviors in regards to xenophobia and religious intolerance of the other party. There have been repeated disputes on grounds of legality and logical appeals in regards to who has a claim to the land, whether or not national sovereignty should override the interests of the people, and whether or not a documented “legal” action legislated by a recognized national government should be taken for granted when other parties view the decisions as fundamentally immoral or infringing and harming others unnecessarily.
Keep in mind that these sources of hatred are so deep rooted and powerful that they are capable of persuading and creating a social phenomenon where suicide attacks become seemingly justified and even popular. So it is very important to integrate your own subjective moral maxims or assumptions with the extreme environments that these people are placed in. Some facts which are indisputable in regards to the Israeli / Palestinian conflict are that:
- Israel is currently illegally settling into the West Bank beyond the agreed upon borders.
- Parties representing both countries have justified acts which constitute terrorism under the guise of national security.
- The treatment of the Palestinians by the Israel is not up to standards or justifiable by any human rights group. It goes without saying that the military actions taken by both parties is also often unjustifiable and motivated not on strategic importance or sustainable solutions but instead irrational assumptions or hatred and fear.
- Even if both states reach a two state solution (which would imply Palestine being recognized as a country as well as Palestinians receiving the right of self-determination), Israel is not a self-sustainable country in its present territories due to many factors: such as lack of access to water besides from the Jordan river, lack of sustainable agricultural / economic development solution, etc.
- The concept of the “organic bond” of a people to a land is in stark opposition of enlightenment era Jewish values (or “Haskalah”) from the 18th to late 19th century . The ideals of Zionism has also shifted so far along the political axis that the mainstream Zionist values prior to the inception of Israel are completely different from the mainstream Zionist values of today.
The role of mothers and the status quo of gender roles and discrimination in Palestine
The biggest sticking / sensationalist point of the entire affair is the role that mothers are playing in Palestinian society to actively encourage their own sons to participate in suicide attacks. This is so fundamentally infringing on the roles and biological inclinations of a mother that rationalizing it is extremely difficult even given all of the above justifications and motivations for suicide and seemingly irrational action. So I will open this to debate, do you think it is logical for mothers to commit actions like this given the circumstances and assumptions. (e.g. If I make the assumption that God is all powerful, all knowing, etc, then it is logically coherent for me to not question the actions of God since my logic is flawed, though we could try to disprove that assumption itself.)
It is also disturbing that females are expected to play one specific role in society (which is congruous with the teachings and assumptions of Islam, which I will not personally debate here but leave open), where from the vocabulary and emotion expressed by the individuals seems as if the only reason why women are not also participating in suicide attacks is because they are not male and must be subservient to the males who play the dominant role in society. I have mixed feelings about this, on one hand we should all be glad that the level of violence doesn’t escalate in any way, on the other hand this is doing nothing for women’s rights in the middle east as it sets backwards examples of obedience to an environment.
What do you think?
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Martyrdom is one of the most wicked things in this world, the glorification of self-destruction, the ultimate abandonment of rational self-interest, superseded by a sick urge to destroy, and be destroyed, for the propagation of an ideology.
It shows the totalitarian nature of these belief/political systems. What do they demand of their subjects? Their property? Their submission? No, they won't even stop at that, they won't stop until you give them your very life, the only existence you will ever have.
The fact that these people sacrifice their own person so willingly is indicative of a deep flaw in the human brain, one so advanced that it can easily be turned against its biological mandate of survival. These people don't just destroy themselves, they do so with a sensation of rapture, as they murder themselves and others, they feel bliss.
The problem comes back to the submission of the individual. To relgion, to the state, to the family, any institution that demands submission of the individual to the greater good, will to some degree foster these things.
What is a young Palestinian to do? His religion praises martyrs. His state deems it the highest form of dedication to the cause. His family whisper into his ear how proud they would be, in a society where familial bonds are almost everything.
Strengthen the self; understand that the individual is more important than these structures that demand blind submission to the point of self-extermination. But in a society that would censor such views, these children remain subjected to this psychological abuse.
But self-sacrifice, one for the many, the greater good. Such revolting notions still permeate even our society. What chance does some 16-year old Palestinian boy have?
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this is a big ass write up lol, very interesting and thought provoking though.
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I'd like to clarify that women have participated in suicide attacks. It's definitely less common than men, but a lot of women probably see teaching/praising as sharing in an equal effort to the war with men. I'd also like to clarify that the treatment/status of women in Palestine and in the neighboring regions, (Jordan, Lebanon, etc ), is very different from the rest of the middle east. Women are actresses, models, doctors, engineers, etc in those regions. There's definitely more men in those roles, similar to how it is in the US. So while there is cultural shifts that still need to be made, it's not desperate and is naturally/gradually happening without needing a huge cultural revolution.
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On November 24 2012 18:06 LittleAtari wrote:
I'd like to clarify that women have participated in suicide attacks. It's definitely less common than men, but a lot of women probably see teaching/praising as sharing in an equal effort to the war with men. I'd also like to clarify that the treatment/status of women in Palestine and in the neighboring regions, (Jordan, Lebanon, etc ), is very different from the rest of the middle east. Women are actresses, models, doctors, engineers, etc in those regions. There's definitely more men in those roles, similar to how it is in the US. So while there is cultural shifts that still need to be made, it's not desperate and is naturally/gradually happening without needing a huge cultural revolution.
Yes I am very much aware, it's in the interview that I linked, they mention the case of the third female suicide bomber from Palestine as early as 2002. It's the tone that the females express which is extremely worrying from multiple perspectives.
Infact here's a music video specifically targetting mothers and their daughters.
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The line between suicide bombing and any other form of warfare is not so sharp. When one signs up for a military one must accept that it is quite possible that they will die for their country. It is a matter of degree of certainty (matryrs know they will die, soldiers know they might die) rather than two wholly different things, so I find it a bit nonsensical to write attempt an ethical treatment of martyrdom as if it were a completely different type of act from any other sort of soldiering.
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On November 24 2012 18:26 sickoota wrote:
The line between suicide bombing and any other form of warfare is not so sharp. When one signs up for a military one must accept that it is quite possible that they will die for their country. It is a matter of degree of certainty (matryrs know they will die, soldiers know they might die) rather than two wholly different things, so I find it a bit nonsensical to write attempt an ethical treatment of martyrdom as if it were a completely different type of act from any other sort of soldiering.
You yourself acknowledge the quintessential difference. One embraces absolute death, the other seeks to avoid it, but accepts the possibility.
Other than that, there is the fact that militaries are, sadly, a fact of life. Blowing yourself up in a Jewish school doesn't have a damn thing to do with defense of a nation.
So no, signing up for the military and martyrdom are not the same.
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So I will open this to debate, do you think it is logical for mothers to commit actions like this given the circumstances and assumptions.
Religion is not logical but if I'll bite the happy meal I guess it doesn't seem that weird that they would send their sons to do gods work and save the world or whatever.
Also suicide is not that exciting as you paint it I think. Some people just don't have any positive prospects on the future or live in pain so suicide doesn't seem that bad, it'll make the pain go away, right? I doubt 99% of people committing suicide really has had any philosophical epiphany where they are convinced that it is the right thing. But I guess even the notion that there might be some kind of afterlife will lubricate the motivation.
I don't believe war is right either, as you've said it is a certain form of martyrdom even if death is not the intention. I wish the world would just unite and try to up the living standards for everyone and spread the wealth around and try to "upgrade" everything. Instead of having some super rich dudes and countries like africa being exploited for resources etc. But I know it's damned complicated as with everything and I'm just another grocery bill chewing swede.
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On November 24 2012 18:26 sickoota wrote:
The line between suicide bombing and any other form of warfare is not so sharp. When one signs up for a military one must accept that it is quite possible that they will die for their country. It is a matter of degree of certainty (matryrs know they will die, soldiers know they might die) rather than two wholly different things, so I find it a bit nonsensical to write attempt an ethical treatment of martyrdom as if it were a completely different type of act from any other sort of soldiering.
it's an entirely different thing, you couldn't be any more wrong.
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In reply to the 'is it logical' question in the opening editorial:
In my opinion, yes, given the presumption of believing that your son will be given an eternal life of happiness if they sacrifice their body in the service of an all powerful supreme being I do think it is logical for a mother to support the martyrdom of her son. Especially if their martyrdom will afford you some material convenience, such as the support of members of your society. Even more so if you son is living intolerable conditions.
Having said that I don't necessarily condone the actions of Palestinian's or anyone else committing acts of violence, whether that be through suicide attacks or otherwise.
Which leads me to my next point, or rather question. Is there any Biblical support for martyrdom? The best I could find is
http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-martyrdom.html Which seems to say it's ok to die for your beliefs, but you shouldn't intentionally try to get yourself killed. So a non-suicidal definition of martyrdom is used.
Non Abrahamic religions such as Hinduism support the suicidal form of martyrdom, e.g. Sati, so perhaps it shouldn't be surprising that Islam does. However I can't find support for suicidal martyrdom either in the Bible or even the Koran.
Thus from a theological viewpoint my conclusion is Palestinian mother's support for suicidal martyrdom is misguided because it's not condoned by Islam.
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Dude...that mother was definitely mentally ill. What she told her sons to do is something that would disturb many hardcore anti-Zionists. In fact, many of them would distance themselves from the mother and do what they do best which is resorting to conspiracy theories.
But as for martyrdom, it certainly proved to be a effective military tactic on occasion during WW II, but as for ethics it is rather fucked. My great uncle was at my age (18) was so brainwashed with nationalism and anti-Americanism he was more than happy to crash a plane into an American vessel. But the war ended and he went crazy, even trying to kill my grandmother with his katana. I have met suicidal people several times and they are unstable, but functioning whereas my great uncle was out of it.
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On November 24 2012 19:54 Rick Deckard wrote:In reply to the 'is it logical' question in the opening editorial: In my opinion, yes, given the presumption of believing that your son will be given an eternal life of happiness if they sacrifice their body in the service of an all powerful supreme being I do think it is logical for a mother to support the martyrdom of her son. Especially if their martyrdom will afford you some material convenience, such as the support of members of your society. Even more so if you son is living intolerable conditions. Having said that I don't necessarily condone the actions of Palestinian's or anyone else committing acts of violence, whether that be through suicide attacks or otherwise. Which leads me to my next point, or rather question. Is there any Biblical support for martyrdom? The best I could find is http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-martyrdom.html Which seems to say it's ok to die for your beliefs, but you shouldn't intentionally try to get yourself killed. So a non-suicidal definition of martyrdom is used. Non Abrahamic religions such as Hinduism support the suicidal form of martyrdom, e.g. Sati, so perhaps it shouldn't be surprising that Islam does. However I can't find support for suicidal martyrdom either in the Bible or even the Koran.Thus from a theological viewpoint my conclusion is Palestinian mother's support for suicidal martyrdom is misguided because it's not condoned by Islam.
You can try to argue that blowing yourself up in a suicide attack is not a correct form of martyrdom (you would be wrong).
What you can't do is try to pretend that martyrdom is an inherent part of Islam, because it so very obviously is. Dying in defense of the faith is one of the highest callings that a muslim can answer to.
People need to stop trying to re-write these books in their head because they want them to be something other than what they are.
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On November 24 2012 17:58 zalz wrote:
Martyrdom is one of the most wicked things in this world, the glorification of self-destruction, the ultimate abandonment of rational self-interest, superseded by a sick urge to destroy, and be destroyed, for the propagation of an ideology.
It shows the totalitarian nature of these belief/political systems. What do they demand of their subjects? Their property? Their submission? No, they won't even stop at that, they won't stop until you give them your very life, the only existence you will ever have.
The fact that these people sacrifice their own person so willingly is indicative of a deep flaw in the human brain, one so advanced that it can easily be turned against its biological mandate of survival. These people don't just destroy themselves, they do so with a sensation of rapture, as they murder themselves and others, they feel bliss.
The problem comes back to the submission of the individual. To relgion, to the state, to the family, any institution that demands submission of the individual to the greater good, will to some degree foster these things.
What is a young Palestinian to do? His religion praises martyrs. His state deems it the highest form of dedication to the cause. His family whisper into his ear how proud they would be, in a society where familial bonds are almost everything.
Strengthen the self; understand that the individual is more important than these structures that demand blind submission to the point of self-extermination. But in a society that would censor such views, these children remain subjected to this psychological abuse.
But self-sacrifice, one for the many, the greater good. Such revolting notions still permeate even our society. What chance does some 16-year old Palestinian boy have?
As in most societal issues, black and white views are naive. Self-sacrifice might be good or might be bad, based on context. I agree with you on these specific ones, and in general martyrdom. But there are many instances where I have no issue with self-sacrifice. Soldier enlisting to protect people he loves, person sacrificing himself so others may live, ... I see no issue with them, I would even say they can be praiseworthy in many situations, depending on details.
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On November 24 2012 23:30 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 17:58 zalz wrote:
Martyrdom is one of the most wicked things in this world, the glorification of self-destruction, the ultimate abandonment of rational self-interest, superseded by a sick urge to destroy, and be destroyed, for the propagation of an ideology.
It shows the totalitarian nature of these belief/political systems. What do they demand of their subjects? Their property? Their submission? No, they won't even stop at that, they won't stop until you give them your very life, the only existence you will ever have.
The fact that these people sacrifice their own person so willingly is indicative of a deep flaw in the human brain, one so advanced that it can easily be turned against its biological mandate of survival. These people don't just destroy themselves, they do so with a sensation of rapture, as they murder themselves and others, they feel bliss.
The problem comes back to the submission of the individual. To relgion, to the state, to the family, any institution that demands submission of the individual to the greater good, will to some degree foster these things.
What is a young Palestinian to do? His religion praises martyrs. His state deems it the highest form of dedication to the cause. His family whisper into his ear how proud they would be, in a society where familial bonds are almost everything.
Strengthen the self; understand that the individual is more important than these structures that demand blind submission to the point of self-extermination. But in a society that would censor such views, these children remain subjected to this psychological abuse.
But self-sacrifice, one for the many, the greater good. Such revolting notions still permeate even our society. What chance does some 16-year old Palestinian boy have? As in most societal issues, black and white views are naive. Self-sacrifice might be good or might be bad, based on context. I agree with you on these specific ones, and in general martyrdom. But there are many instances where I have no issue with self-sacrifice. Soldier enlisting to protect people he loves, person sacrificing himself so others may live, ... I see no issue with them, I would even say they can be praiseworthy in many situations, depending on details.
Now expand the scope in which you view the world from a national one, to an international one.
Soldiers sign up for the army to defend the people they love, or their nation, or their god, whatever the reason, they sign up for the army.
From what does an army defend said people, nation, or god? Other armies, other fanatics.
The entire reason that one signs up to defend his nation from harm, is because the other nation managed to find someone else to sign up for the other team.
The US is currently in an active battle with the Taliban. Can there be any group to whom martyrdom is more sacred? Whenever one of their members blows himself up, they sing his praise.
If you look at the world from a larger perspective, one that covers the entire globe, you see that the problem really is that urge to self-sacrifice oneself for others, or political ideals. This deep urge to kill oneself, or place oneself in a situation that is likely to result in self-destruction, is responsible for a lot of grief.
People should think about their own interests, not abandon all reason and scream in ecstasy as they are destroyed for some cause they fancy, or some god they bow to.
Now, you argue that sacrificing yourself so that others may live is a good one, something we should admire. I disagree, because all of this is far too abstract.
These people who commit suicide bombings are also under the impression that they are sacrificing themselves so that others may live, or live better. If Israel is destroyed, they reason, how many Palestinians would that save? How many would be happy? Then surely, murdering these school children is the right thing to do, is it not?
I would never dare call a firefighter that saves someone from a burning house anything less than a hero, but those clear-cut examples are as relevant to reality as the ticking-timebomb scenario is to the morality of torture.
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On November 24 2012 23:49 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 23:30 mcc wrote:On November 24 2012 17:58 zalz wrote:
Martyrdom is one of the most wicked things in this world, the glorification of self-destruction, the ultimate abandonment of rational self-interest, superseded by a sick urge to destroy, and be destroyed, for the propagation of an ideology.
It shows the totalitarian nature of these belief/political systems. What do they demand of their subjects? Their property? Their submission? No, they won't even stop at that, they won't stop until you give them your very life, the only existence you will ever have.
The fact that these people sacrifice their own person so willingly is indicative of a deep flaw in the human brain, one so advanced that it can easily be turned against its biological mandate of survival. These people don't just destroy themselves, they do so with a sensation of rapture, as they murder themselves and others, they feel bliss.
The problem comes back to the submission of the individual. To relgion, to the state, to the family, any institution that demands submission of the individual to the greater good, will to some degree foster these things.
What is a young Palestinian to do? His religion praises martyrs. His state deems it the highest form of dedication to the cause. His family whisper into his ear how proud they would be, in a society where familial bonds are almost everything.
Strengthen the self; understand that the individual is more important than these structures that demand blind submission to the point of self-extermination. But in a society that would censor such views, these children remain subjected to this psychological abuse.
But self-sacrifice, one for the many, the greater good. Such revolting notions still permeate even our society. What chance does some 16-year old Palestinian boy have? As in most societal issues, black and white views are naive. Self-sacrifice might be good or might be bad, based on context. I agree with you on these specific ones, and in general martyrdom. But there are many instances where I have no issue with self-sacrifice. Soldier enlisting to protect people he loves, person sacrificing himself so others may live, ... I see no issue with them, I would even say they can be praiseworthy in many situations, depending on details. Now expand the scope in which you view the world from a national one, to an international one. Soldiers sign up for the army to defend the people they love, or their nation, or their god, whatever the reason, they sign up for the army. From what does an army defend said people, nation, or god? Other armies, other fanatics. The entire reason that one signs up to defend his nation from harm, is because the other nation managed to find someone else to sign up for the other team. The US is currently in an active battle with the Taliban. Can there be any group to whom martyrdom is more sacred? Whenever one of their members blows himself up, they sing his praise. If you look at the world from a larger perspective, one that covers the entire globe, you see that the problem really is that urge to self-sacrifice oneself for others, or political ideals. This deep urge to kill oneself, or place oneself in a situation that is likely to result in self-destruction, is responsible for a lot of grief. People should think about their own interests, not abandon all reason and scream in ecstasy as they are destroyed for some cause they fancy, or some god they bow to. Now, you argue that sacrificing yourself so that others may live is a good one, something we should admire. I disagree, because all of this is far too abstract. These people who commit suicide bombings are also under the impression that they are sacrificing themselves so that others may live, or live better. If Israel is destroyed, they reason, how many Palestinians would that save? How many would be happy? Then surely, murdering these school children is the right thing to do, is it not? I would never dare call a firefighter that saves someone from a burning house anything less than a hero, but those clear-cut examples are as relevant to reality as the ticking-timebomb scenario is to the morality of torture.
Well considering that I said exactly what you just said, I see no reason to disagree. Notice that I qualified it that it might be praiseworthy based on circumstances. Like your firefighter hero.
In cases of when it is ok, I was using objective reality as a measure, not subjective one of the self-sacrificing person. If the person saves others by killing even more people, that does not satisfy my criteria. Or when he "saves" them from hell by killing them that also does not satisfy my criteria.
As for the enlisting soldier, you are right, I was too vague. Of course I meant a just defensive war. In other cases it gets more circumstance dependent.
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On November 24 2012 23:49 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 23:30 mcc wrote:On November 24 2012 17:58 zalz wrote:
Martyrdom is one of the most wicked things in this world, the glorification of self-destruction, the ultimate abandonment of rational self-interest, superseded by a sick urge to destroy, and be destroyed, for the propagation of an ideology.
It shows the totalitarian nature of these belief/political systems. What do they demand of their subjects? Their property? Their submission? No, they won't even stop at that, they won't stop until you give them your very life, the only existence you will ever have.
The fact that these people sacrifice their own person so willingly is indicative of a deep flaw in the human brain, one so advanced that it can easily be turned against its biological mandate of survival. These people don't just destroy themselves, they do so with a sensation of rapture, as they murder themselves and others, they feel bliss.
The problem comes back to the submission of the individual. To relgion, to the state, to the family, any institution that demands submission of the individual to the greater good, will to some degree foster these things.
What is a young Palestinian to do? His religion praises martyrs. His state deems it the highest form of dedication to the cause. His family whisper into his ear how proud they would be, in a society where familial bonds are almost everything.
Strengthen the self; understand that the individual is more important than these structures that demand blind submission to the point of self-extermination. But in a society that would censor such views, these children remain subjected to this psychological abuse.
But self-sacrifice, one for the many, the greater good. Such revolting notions still permeate even our society. What chance does some 16-year old Palestinian boy have? As in most societal issues, black and white views are naive. Self-sacrifice might be good or might be bad, based on context. I agree with you on these specific ones, and in general martyrdom. But there are many instances where I have no issue with self-sacrifice. Soldier enlisting to protect people he loves, person sacrificing himself so others may live, ... I see no issue with them, I would even say they can be praiseworthy in many situations, depending on details. Now expand the scope in which you view the world from a national one, to an international one. Soldiers sign up for the army to defend the people they love, or their nation, or their god, whatever the reason, they sign up for the army. From what does an army defend said people, nation, or god? Other armies, other fanatics. The entire reason that one signs up to defend his nation from harm, is because the other nation managed to find someone else to sign up for the other team. The US is currently in an active battle with the Taliban. Can there be any group to whom martyrdom is more sacred? Whenever one of their members blows himself up, they sing his praise. If you look at the world from a larger perspective, one that covers the entire globe, you see that the problem really is that urge to self-sacrifice oneself for others, or political ideals. This deep urge to kill oneself, or place oneself in a situation that is likely to result in self-destruction, is responsible for a lot of grief.
That's an interesting view, but I'm not sure the reasons for every army are fundamentally about self-sacrifice. I think that at best while the reasons for one army might be reasonable self-sacrifice (self-defense), the other you can describe as a lust for power that people are willing to risk death for.
Like the people fighting for their freedom in Syria, what they're doing is obviously incredibly dangerous. They're going up against a pretty powerful military that bombs them with near impunity, but their reasons are rational, because they would rather risk death than live under a dictatorship with the quality of life that Assad gives them. So that's an okay form of self-sacrifice.
Now you argue that the problem is in the greater picture, those other self-sacrificers who attack those people.
But for Assad's army, I don't think there is really any sense of martyrdom in the soldiers who still work for him, although I know there are religious ties from a certain sect involved. Its mostly that they just want to continue holding power (and all of the associated good things they get with that) over others. At least before the revolution or near the start, being a soldier would probably give you a fairly good standard of life, that is worth the small risks of being a soldier.
I'm pretty sure there are many cases in the US where people would rather join the army and get free training, schooling, healthcare and food even if there is a chance they will have to fight. Its not really about martyrdom, they just want a better quality of life.
So ultimately I feel you have to argue that the smaller risk of death (in certain cases) for wanting power is like martyrdom and just as deeply irrational...but historically speaking I'm not sure that's so clear. Maybe getting a gang together to take over the local population would actually do the most to improve your quality of life? If you knew they couldn't defend themselves, then it might be reasonable.
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On November 25 2012 00:50 radscorpion9 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 23:49 zalz wrote:On November 24 2012 23:30 mcc wrote:On November 24 2012 17:58 zalz wrote:
Martyrdom is one of the most wicked things in this world, the glorification of self-destruction, the ultimate abandonment of rational self-interest, superseded by a sick urge to destroy, and be destroyed, for the propagation of an ideology.
It shows the totalitarian nature of these belief/political systems. What do they demand of their subjects? Their property? Their submission? No, they won't even stop at that, they won't stop until you give them your very life, the only existence you will ever have.
The fact that these people sacrifice their own person so willingly is indicative of a deep flaw in the human brain, one so advanced that it can easily be turned against its biological mandate of survival. These people don't just destroy themselves, they do so with a sensation of rapture, as they murder themselves and others, they feel bliss.
The problem comes back to the submission of the individual. To relgion, to the state, to the family, any institution that demands submission of the individual to the greater good, will to some degree foster these things.
What is a young Palestinian to do? His religion praises martyrs. His state deems it the highest form of dedication to the cause. His family whisper into his ear how proud they would be, in a society where familial bonds are almost everything.
Strengthen the self; understand that the individual is more important than these structures that demand blind submission to the point of self-extermination. But in a society that would censor such views, these children remain subjected to this psychological abuse.
But self-sacrifice, one for the many, the greater good. Such revolting notions still permeate even our society. What chance does some 16-year old Palestinian boy have? As in most societal issues, black and white views are naive. Self-sacrifice might be good or might be bad, based on context. I agree with you on these specific ones, and in general martyrdom. But there are many instances where I have no issue with self-sacrifice. Soldier enlisting to protect people he loves, person sacrificing himself so others may live, ... I see no issue with them, I would even say they can be praiseworthy in many situations, depending on details. Now expand the scope in which you view the world from a national one, to an international one. Soldiers sign up for the army to defend the people they love, or their nation, or their god, whatever the reason, they sign up for the army. From what does an army defend said people, nation, or god? Other armies, other fanatics. The entire reason that one signs up to defend his nation from harm, is because the other nation managed to find someone else to sign up for the other team. The US is currently in an active battle with the Taliban. Can there be any group to whom martyrdom is more sacred? Whenever one of their members blows himself up, they sing his praise. If you look at the world from a larger perspective, one that covers the entire globe, you see that the problem really is that urge to self-sacrifice oneself for others, or political ideals. This deep urge to kill oneself, or place oneself in a situation that is likely to result in self-destruction, is responsible for a lot of grief. That's an interesting view, but I'm not sure the reasons for every army are fundamentally about self-sacrifice. I think that at best while the reasons for one army might be reasonable self-sacrifice (self-defense), the other you can describe as a lust for power that people are willing to risk death for. Like the people fighting for their freedom in Syria, what they're doing is obviously incredibly dangerous. They're going up against a pretty powerful military that bombs them with near impunity, but their reasons are rational, because they would rather risk death than live under a dictatorship with the quality of life that Assad gives them. So that's an okay form of self-sacrifice. Now you argue that the problem is in the greater picture, those other self-sacrificers who attack those people. But for Assad's army, I don't think there is really any sense of martyrdom in the soldiers who still work for him, although I know there are religious ties from a certain sect involved. Its mostly that they just want to continue holding power (and all of the associated good things they get with that) over others. At least before the revolution or near the start, being a soldier would probably give you a fairly good standard of life, that is worth the small risks of being a soldier. I'm pretty sure there are many cases in the US where people would rather join the army and get free training, schooling, healthcare and food even if there is a chance they will have to fight. Its not really about martyrdom, they just want a better quality of life. So ultimately I feel you have to argue that the smaller risk of death (in certain cases) for wanting power is like martyrdom and just as deeply irrational...but historically speaking I'm not sure that's so clear. Maybe getting a gang together to take over the local population would actually do the most to improve your quality of life? If you knew they couldn't defend themselves, then it might be reasonable.
It is true that the entire world does not operate on a single princple.
The ideals of self-sacrifice, and martyrdom, are in nearly all their manifestations, contributing to a worse world. They sell evil acts as good, and can make unimaginable horror, like murdering children at a school, something to be praised.
But these ideals, glorified perversions as they are, are not responsible for all the evil in the world. People are complex, and just as you show in your examples, not all soldiers are motivated by notions of martyrdom, some are simply in it for the monetary benefits, others, in third world nations, might enjoy the obsene power it grants them over their fellow citizens.
As such, joining the military is not automatically a sign of a willingness to be a martyr for a cause, or a nation. It might very well be a practical choice.
But the point remains that the ideals of martyrdom, nearly always, push people towards destructive ends. Where these beliefs show their head, they leave misery and sorrow in their wake, but you are correct in that they are not the sole cause of all problems in the world.
I can't claim to know a solution to all the world's problems, I can only point out one of the many termites in the foundation.
In closing though, I do find martyrdom to be more insidious than most things, mostly because many people perceive it as a positive, and don't strive to see it dissapear.
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When those who believe in god forget that it was god who chose to put them on the earth, it tends to be that they feel as though they have the right to take themselves off of it in his name. Suicide is something that cannot be justified by religion, and from an atheistic standpoint, in general, unless one's life is so horrendous that it cannot be remedied I am not a big proponent of suicide. Suicide and martyrdom are absolute answers to temporary problems. The sum total is that they never solve anything, ever. One killing himself, at this own hands means that that person has given up on fixing what has gone wrong. There are reasons to kill oneself, I'm not going to say that all suicides are unjustified, but there is never a time I would say, "yeah suicide is your only option here bro." In my experience (including my own time being suicidal, very short period though) suicide is the answer of someone who is not looking to fix what is broken, but to escape from it and just cut their own losses.
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On November 25 2012 01:30 docvoc wrote:
When those who believe in god forget that it was god who chose to put them on the earth, it tends to be that they feel as though they have the right to take themselves off of it in his name. Suicide is something that cannot be justified by religion, and from an atheistic standpoint, in general, unless one's life is so horrendous that it cannot be remedied I am not a big proponent of suicide. Suicide and martyrdom are absolute answers to temporary problems. The sum total is that they never solve anything, ever. One killing himself, at this own hands means that that person has given up on fixing what has gone wrong. There are reasons to kill oneself, I'm not going to say that all suicides are unjustified, but there is never a time I would say, "yeah suicide is your only option here bro." In my experience (including my own time being suicidal, very short period though) suicide is the answer of someone who is not looking to fix what is broken, but to escape from it and just cut their own losses.
Suicide itself isn't inherently wrong, nor impossible to justify through religious or secular means. Suicide's negative reputation is entirely contemporary. The easiest example is the samurai, who would commit suicide, not just to maintain their honour, but to enhance it.
One's life is his own property. To say that people shouldn't be allowed to commit suicide is to suggest that a person does not own his or her own life. Who then owns it? God? Society? Your family?
The only thing darker than suicide is the idea that you aren't even entitled to do with your own life as you wish. What then? Are we all born into servitude of some form? Don't want to live? Though, your family demands it, and you must adhere to their wishes and the designs they have on your life.
Honestly, it's repugnant.
The only problem with suicide is that it is often indicative of a deeply disturbed mind. I would argue that all people are entitled to commit suicide, but that all of the people that want to do so, should allow themselves to be examined. If a depression pushes you towards suicide, it is hardly your own choice, and that is what is crucial, one's own choice.
People shouldn't be forced to exist against their own will. A rare few amongst the 7 billion will be born with the sad fate that their are biologically unintrested in existing. Is that not cruel enough? Why extent their torment?
You can't do that, God doesn't want it! You can't do that, society doesn't want it! You can't do that, your family doesn't want it!
Your life is your property, and as such, yours to do with as you please.
All of that said, martyrdom and suicide are not the same thing, and the ethics of one do not apply to the other.
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EPT
