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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Say the new Hots stuff makes protoss able to fight Infestor/Broodlord without the need for a lucky vortex...well then if you buff the carrier on top of that, lategame pvz will be heavily p favoured with a better carrier, and you need to restart the balance process. Long story short: Browder indirectly said nop, ain't gonna happen. Which fucking sucks. | ||
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dugokontov
Bosnia-Herzegovina14 Posts
On September 18 2012 19:16 mage36 wrote: I can only speak for myself when I say that while your vulture suggestion does add mirco, but I actually prefer it not being so obvious. An advantage of not making it obvious is that when you start playing the game, you find that specific units act in a specific way. Then you go and watch a tournament like the OSL and go "How the hell are they doing that?" Then you realize that there is more to this game than meets the eye. If you're interested enough, then you start exploring more and more into these little things that you didn't know existed and try them out yourself. (Seriously not a big problem given that we have these thread, we have wikipedia and we can even chat people up during/after the game to discover these things.) You further realize that it's not just as simple as knowing how they do it. It also takes practice to do it perfectly and are even more amazed at the time and effort pro players put into the game. If you aren't interested enough, then you just play these units on the obvious aspects where all you have to do is either attack, focus fire or retreat and you never have to think about using the added feature of attacking without needing to stop (as with the vulture). You'll still have fun, but you just won't get maximum efficiency without learning it. Again. I am not speaking that everyone prefers it this way. I'm saying I like it this way and is a rational way of justifying it not being obvious. As seen in the video, I am actually leaning towards saying that the SC2 carrier is a glitchy unit in itself. It's just that the glitch is actually disadvantagous to the person using the carrier. Even within leash range 1 interceptor actually goes back to the carrier when moving away a little. I think that's a huge glitch. In addition, as stated in the video, what is the purpose of having a leash range when units die so quickly and you just have to bring your carrier back to attack range to engage again? So even if you're a person who believes that glitches shouldn't be in the game, you still have to admit that there is something wrong with the SC2 carrier and Blizzard has to fix that. Of course I agree that something is wrong with unit that is hardly even used in game. I just wanted to say that ppl shouldn't ask for bugs found in BW to be included in SC2. We should look into what was the benefit of those bugs, and how can they be carried in SC2. Idea to allow interceptors to stay out of carrier and let them attack more quickly if you babysit carriers has the most potential. This gives user a choice, should he leave interceptors out and attack more quickly, or let them repair, just like NonY said in first place. And that could be achieved with new autocast ability. But we have to take a look and see what are all reasons for not having carrier in games so often? Is it that all races have good anti air (don't think so, since same is for Colossus, and we see them a lot)? Is it that some units have good area of effect spells that kill interceptors too easy (Than introduce some teleport ability to allow carrier to save interceptors manually)? Is it that some units overlap, but are easier to use (Colossus)? I just ask myself even if we introduce all what NonY suggester, would we still have more use of carriers in pro matches? I just hope so (: | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
As someone noted with the decisions of Vultures. You can definitely try to A-move across the map with them as a traditional buffer units in front of its behemoth armored brothers. But you can also use its patrol micro to quickly spew up an attack to a specific target. Same can be applied to Mutalisks and together because of the the letter 'P' is very far away on your keyboard from your usual hotkeys, you need a very fast reflexes to even dare of trying them out. In the case of Mutalisk micro, you can totally just A-move up a certain target to eliminate it and in the case of Mutalisks vs Scourge battle, you can also do the Hold position once you get a certain distance away from the creatures that utilized Bin Laden's tactics. But you can also do Patrol micro that gets you to a certain place and be able to shoot with one single button instead of 2. Now there are various other tit bits with the Mutalisks too. 1. There are the stacking with one units selected with it. That's not the only way to stack them, you can easily have all 12 clicked on a building/gas/minerals. And the stacking with unit takes more focus to manage. For example, you select them with an larvae, you have to keep making sure that one specific larvae isn't morphed into something else OR re-hotkey the 11 Mutas with a brand new unit. Additionally, if you place it with an Overlord, you must make sure to return the Ovie back so that if won't just run to the enemies' base. THIS ALSO APPLLIED TO CORSAIRS AND WRAITH! 2. You can either one A + Select a unit to specifically snipe it OR you can splash the entire radius of attack with hold position. Now I've only explained mostly 1 unit (there are many more usage with Corsairs and Wraith). But it is tiny micro decisions like the aforementioned lists that truly transformed BW into a nail-biting game. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 18 2012 19:05 MavercK wrote: i tried to create this yesterday but failed. tried again today and i have this this is interceptors changing target in the leash range (between 8 and 12) im working on interceptors not redocking with the carrier while it moves right now. should have a second video out in an hour or two (depends how much i suck) this is on SC2BW test map, which is why the sounds and model is different. You're a hero MavercK | ||
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theSAiNT
United States726 Posts
On September 18 2012 19:05 MavercK wrote: i tried to create this yesterday but failed. tried again today and i have this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpZVo4mEZQU this is interceptors changing target in the leash range (between 8 and 12) im working on interceptors not redocking with the carrier while it moves right now. should have a second video out in an hour or two (depends how much i suck) this is on SC2BW test map, which is why the sounds and model is different. Well that didn't take long. Now just stick it into the beta and see what testers do with it. Of course, Browder won't do it because it's an admission of failure. Also, I must say this is a much cooler Carrier skin. The SC2 carrier seems so weedy. | ||
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Darneck
Sweden1394 Posts
Indeed. I so hope that blizzard will listen to Nony and add this and while they are at it some other things for other units as well. | ||
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Rammstorm
Germany1434 Posts
On September 18 2012 19:05 MavercK wrote: i tried to create this yesterday but failed. tried again today and i have this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpZVo4mEZQU this is interceptors changing target in the leash range (between 8 and 12) im working on interceptors not redocking with the carrier while it moves right now. should have a second video out in an hour or two (depends how much i suck) this is on SC2BW test map, which is why the sounds and model is different. Nice carrier model, I thought this was the one used in HoTS  . Good job there. | ||
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On September 18 2012 22:31 theSAiNT wrote: Well that didn't take long. Now just stick it into the beta and see what testers do with it. Of course, Browder won't do it because it's an admission of failure. Also, I must say this is a much cooler Carrier skin. The SC2 carrier seems so weedy. Every single patch to a game is an admission of failure. If you seriously think it's his own pride that's stopping him from implementing this then you are badly mistaken. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On September 18 2012 23:09 Fragile51 wrote: Every single patch to a game is an admission of failure. If you seriously think it's his own pride that's stopping him from implementing this then you are badly mistaken. "BW is still great game. If you like BW, go play that instead." - D.B. All those changes have been fundamentally, just stats changes and abilities removal or addition. None of them truly correct the mechanics in which the units functions. Currently what are we trying to get across is that we want he carriers to act in BW's manner. That being said, since DB have already insinuated that he wants to create an absolutely new game devoid of BW's characteristics. You can bet yours ass that he won't even take a good look at the trait(s) that made the 'predecessor' great. | ||
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ParadoxFox
60 Posts
 Proving that implementing it is not to hard. They will probably have to nerf the carrier slightly otherwise though. However even with these changes it feels like the carrier could still be manageable. Zerg will for instance have vipers with 9 range abduct which should counter this mechanic, specially since Vipers are significantly faster. Terran will of course still have vikings with range 9 and they will with superior speed still be relatively effective. And as Tyler pointed out that there is reward for using this micro there is also a risk, specially against moving targets, if misjudge the slightest you will lose all your DPS. | ||
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Telenil
France484 Posts
On September 18 2012 19:09 ULuMuGuLu wrote: He is not a random guy, he is the one who re-created Brood War on SC2 :pSo a random guy on the internet made this small change in a couple of hours... The SC1 campaign remake is based on his work. | ||
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i)awn
United States189 Posts
On September 18 2012 19:05 MavercK wrote: i tried to create this yesterday but failed. tried again today and i have this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpZVo4mEZQU this is interceptors changing target in the leash range (between 8 and 12) im working on interceptors not redocking with the carrier while it moves right now. should have a second video out in an hour or two (depends how much i suck) this is on SC2BW test map, which is why the sounds and model is different. Quite impressive; it further shows that the community is always ahead of the developers. On a side note I'd kill for that carrier model. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On September 18 2012 22:31 theSAiNT wrote: Of course, Browder won't do it because it's an admission of failure. Browder admittet errors in the past. He is a professional. SC2 is not a school project where a team leader's stubborness and inability to admit errors messes up the success. It's a multi million dollar business. | ||
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
On September 18 2012 15:05 Quexana wrote: Blizzard has heard you! Someone posted a thread on Battle.net's forums linking to LiquidNony's video. A Blizzard developer posting under the name Rock (believed to be D. Browders Screen name) replied in this way: Is it lip service? Or could it be the beginning of Blizzard taking a serious look at redesigning the Carrier? Judge for yourself. Even if they don't keep the carrier, it would be so extremely awesome to get a little bit more micro out of other units. Maybe Blizzard can find a way to increase the micro potential on any one of the many other units in the game. I'd love to see the carrier stay and get tweaked, but I'd also love to see other units get similar treatment. I think prime candidates are: - colossus - reaper (it has been getting stuff) - oracle (they are trying things... need more work probably) - carrier - swarm hosts (I think they probably already have enough potential as you can micro the hosts and the locusts separately but in tune with each other, but we'll see) | ||
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Archybaldie
United Kingdom818 Posts
So i was thinking that a soloution for this could be impliment this mechanic in the form of an upgrade (replacing graviton catapult). With it being something researchable, newbies would be more inclined to try and get it to work. Also with it being an upgrade more information about it could be included in the in game "help files". Heres what i posted on the battlenet forums + Show Spoiler + Name: Micro-pulse reactor Type: Upgrade. For: Carrier, researched at the fleet beacon Description: Allows interceptors to stay out while the carrier is moving. Functionality: "youtube.com/watch?v=1Rqx8s2qKXM" In this video by Liquid'Nony(tyler) He aptly describes the differences in the micro-ability of carriers in broodwar and SC2. The targeting issues he raises should be fixed and would help quite a bit. However he brings up another point about the interceptors "Staying out" when the carrier moves out of "leash range". This is another great feature of the broodwar carrier, but it's a trick thats "little known" outside of the broodwar pro scene. So it raises the question how do you make an "top tier" un-noticable skill available to newbies and the like. A simple soloution is to make it an upgrade from the fleet beacon. By having it as an upgrade, a newbie can look at the button, press it and then try and figure out how to use it. Additionally having it as an upgrade lets you include more information about its specific uses in the in-game help guide. Graphically: I'd ike to see a graphic showing the interceptors along side the carrier or in some sort of formation while it's moving. Alternatives: Having it as a toggle effect, While active the interceptors are out/stay out (Which would be quite intresting to see how it would play out with things like thor missiles hitting the carrier and splashing the interceptors while they are in formation.) Un-toggled returns to carrier. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6606901263 | ||
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Incanus
Canada695 Posts
On September 19 2012 00:13 i)awn wrote: Quite impressive; it further shows that the community is always ahead of the developers. On a side note I'd kill for that carrier model. Using a map editor made by Blizzard developers, for a game made by Blizzard developers... Yes, the community will be ahead in terms of content generation, but you're only using the tools that the developers have created for you to work with. | ||
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p1cKLes
United States342 Posts
On September 19 2012 00:52 Blacklizard wrote: Even if they don't keep the carrier, it would be so extremely awesome to get a little bit more micro out of other units. Maybe Blizzard can find a way to increase the micro potential on any one of the many other units in the game. I'd love to see the carrier stay and get tweaked, but I'd also love to see other units get similar treatment. I think prime candidates are: - colossus - reaper (it has been getting stuff) - oracle (they are trying things... need more work probably) - carrier - swarm hosts (I think they probably already have enough potential as you can micro the hosts and the locusts separately but in tune with each other, but we'll see) Agreed! Units on the surface should be able to be used by all, but there should be an added depth, where you can maximize a units ability through micro. Right now, the carrier is really a 1A unit with hardly any micro. This carrier change would add the necessary depth to it. It's the game that draws gamers into playing the game, but it's the depth that keeps them. The same can be stated about watching the game. The reason you get ewwws and awwws out of a crowd is not because it's easy to do, it's because you just seen someone pull of the sickest marine split ever. We watch in complete aww, because we wish we could pull it off, not because its easy to do. | ||
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Zdrastochye
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
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Jasiwel
United States146 Posts
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Falling
Canada11219 Posts
On September 19 2012 01:02 Archybaldie wrote: There has been a number of comments stating how the micro aspect of keeping the interceptors out was a "little known broodwar glitch". If blizzard were to impliment this it could end up being very tricky to "teach" newbies that this function exists. So i was thinking that a soloution for this could be impliment this mechanic in the form of an upgrade (replacing graviton catapult). With it being something researchable, newbies would be more inclined to try and get it to work. Also with it being an upgrade more information about it could be included in the in game "help files". Heres what i posted on the battlenet forums + Show Spoiler + Name: Micro-pulse reactor Type: Upgrade. For: Carrier, researched at the fleet beacon Description: Allows interceptors to stay out while the carrier is moving. Functionality: "youtube.com/watch?v=1Rqx8s2qKXM" In this video by Liquid'Nony(tyler) He aptly describes the differences in the micro-ability of carriers in broodwar and SC2. The targeting issues he raises should be fixed and would help quite a bit. However he brings up another point about the interceptors "Staying out" when the carrier moves out of "leash range". This is another great feature of the broodwar carrier, but it's a trick thats "little known" outside of the broodwar pro scene. So it raises the question how do you make an "top tier" un-noticable skill available to newbies and the like. A simple soloution is to make it an upgrade from the fleet beacon. By having it as an upgrade, a newbie can look at the button, press it and then try and figure out how to use it. Additionally having it as an upgrade lets you include more information about its specific uses in the in-game help guide. Graphically: I'd ike to see a graphic showing the interceptors along side the carrier or in some sort of formation while it's moving. Alternatives: Having it as a toggle effect, While active the interceptors are out/stay out (Which would be quite intresting to see how it would play out with things like thor missiles hitting the carrier and splashing the interceptors while they are in formation.) Un-toggled returns to carrier. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6606901263 There's no need to turn microbility into an upgrade anymore than turning magic boxing or unit splitting into an upgrade. If the issue is 'little known' the solution is quite simple. Blizzard already has a bunch of training maps designed to teach newbies the fundamentals of SC2. They just need to add in a series of scenarios entitled "Cool Micro Tricks" or something (assuming they add a bunch more of this sort of microbility back in). Have helpful text or voice over explaining how to do it. Easy, simple, done. If the newbie can't be bothered, that's on them. | ||
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