• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:51
CEST 19:51
KST 02:51
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview1[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt2: Take-Off7[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt1: Runway132v2 & SC: Evo Complete: Weekend Double Feature4Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy9
Community News
Weekly Cups (Aug 18-24): herO dethrones MaxPax6Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris34Weekly Cups (Aug 11-17): MaxPax triples again!13Weekly Cups (Aug 4-10): MaxPax wins a triple6SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 195
StarCraft 2
General
Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview BoxeR's Wings Episode 2 - Fan Translation Greatest Players of All Time: 2025 Update A Eulogy for the Six Pool #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time
Tourneys
LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) Esports World Cup 2025
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 488 What Goes Around Mutation # 487 Think Fast Mutation # 486 Watch the Skies Mutation # 485 Death from Below
Brood War
General
Post ASL20 Ro24 discussion. BW General Discussion No Rain in ASL20? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Recent recommended BW games
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro24 Group F [ASL20] Ro24 Group E [IPSL] CSLAN Review and CSLPRO Reimagined! [ASL20] Ro24 Group D
Strategy
Muta micro map competition Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Mechabellum Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The year 2050
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s) Gtx660 graphics card replacement
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale
Blogs
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
How Culture and Conflict Imp…
TrAiDoS
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
INDEPENDIENTE LA CTM
XenOsky
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2563 users

Carrier Micro

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 31 32 33 Next All
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8748 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-16 22:15:14
September 16 2012 20:21 GMT
#1
This video shows and explains carrier micro in BW and contrasts it with a lack of micro in SC2. I argue for implementing the BW carrier mechanics in HOTS beta.



On September 17 2012 06:15 thedeadhaji wrote:
There's a bunch of differences between BW and SC2 Carrier micro details that you listed out, and I'm wondering in what order would you personally like to have "returned" to its former state?

Here are the ones I can recall:

1. Target switching in leash zone
2. Able to self select / target interceptors
3. Continuous deployment of interceptors while moving

Also, the movement pattern of the interceptors seem quite different between BW and SC2, which would affect the "death rate" and "dps rate" of interceptors I imagine.

Target switching in leash zone is the most important.

Being able to target individual interceptors is probably the lowest. That's really just meant to make carriers more difficult to use but it is kind of luck based and not the smoothest way to balance them. Enemies don't really want to do that either. A-move will always be the best method of killing interceptors (aside from possibly with abilities).

Continuous deployment of interceptors while moving I think is really really cool but is the easiest thing to classify as a buggy behavior. I hope we can get it though because it takes so much attention and skill to use effectively. It is very strong but becomes incredibly difficult to do as soon as your opponent forces action in two places at once. So the players are countering each other by doing increasingly difficult strategies and that is AWESOME. The protoss player got the carriers knowing they'll be sufficiently effective ONLY IF he can pull off this micro. The enemy's response is not to bang his head against this really strong micro but rather to split the protoss's attention, punishing him for having tunnel vision on his carriers. Someone is gonna make a mistake and miscalculate and that's how the game should be decided.

If the continuous deployment of interceptors ISN'T in the game, then interceptor healing is pretty much just a straight buff. There isn't really any tension if both things aren't in the game.

All these mechanics sort of tie in to each other. A lot of times the continuous deployment of interceptors isn't used for long stretches, but rather for very short stretches, like in a single battle when the carriers want to pull really far back for a moment and then go right back in. If they don't have continuous deployment of interceptors, they get significantly punished for leaving battles even for a split second. So in such a case, it's basically the same as target switching but with a very short retreat between targets.

Related note: If there isn't continuous deployment, then you are significantly punishing the carrier user for leaving leash range. And when that wasn't a mistake, but rather a "tactical retreat", then the carrier starts to feel like a shitty unit again. If the carrier was too strong, I wouldn't want to see it balanced that way because it's just making it a frustrating unit.
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
Risljaninasim
Profile Joined July 2011
Netherlands228 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-16 20:25:56
September 16 2012 20:24 GMT
#2
Thank you for this Tyler. Yay for Tyler.
;;
levikus
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany19 Posts
September 16 2012 20:25 GMT
#3
nice insight, thank you!
nehl
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany270 Posts
September 16 2012 20:28 GMT
#4
if the carrier could be microed it would possibly be pretty good since it has suck a high dps.
actually i wonder in the first play why blizard has not yet implemented that?
AxiR
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany944 Posts
September 16 2012 20:28 GMT
#5
I think Blizzard is hesitating to implement the "old" carrier because it would overlap a little bit with role of the tempest.
Warpath
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada1242 Posts
September 16 2012 20:30 GMT
#6
I actually didn't know exactly what carrier micro was beyond staying in leash range and TvP is the only thing i play in BW.. this explains so much...
Alryk
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States2718 Posts
September 16 2012 20:31 GMT
#7
Definitely worth watching thank you! Good idea imo...
Team Liquid, IM, ViOlet!
Lazzi
Profile Joined June 2011
Switzerland1923 Posts
September 16 2012 20:33 GMT
#8
Someone link that to Dustin Browder.
It's good to be back
Ero-Sennin
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States756 Posts
September 16 2012 20:38 GMT
#9
Well, now they can't say, "No one has sufficiently explained why we should change the carrier."
Luck makes talent look like genius.
StorrZerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States13919 Posts
September 16 2012 20:38 GMT
#10
Thank you Tyler <3
Back behind this 100%
Hwaseung Oz fan for life. Swing out, always swing out.
Stratos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic6104 Posts
September 16 2012 20:38 GMT
#11
Awesome post, although I don't really follow SC2 at all I appreciate your effort to fight for these changes which might make the game more attractive. I don't see it coming given the directions the development has been taking so far but it's great that there's someone like you out there fighting
En Taro Violet
fenrysk
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States364 Posts
September 16 2012 20:38 GMT
#12
i wish i had something useful to contribute, but all i can do is compliment how cool of a job you've done through this video in show the difference between the powerful micro-bility of BW carriers vs current WoL carriers.

It definitely would be more fun for spectators to see more stargate play in protoss matchups, and i'm sure more protoss players would have more fun playing air-toss styles
http://fenrysk-art.deviantart.com
StorrZerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States13919 Posts
September 16 2012 20:39 GMT
#13
On September 17 2012 05:28 AxiR wrote:
I think Blizzard is hesitating to implement the "old" carrier because it would overlap a little bit with role of the tempest.


Tempest wasn't around in wol though so thats a poor excuess. Tempest might not be needed if the carrier gets its old feel back, and im ok with that.
Hwaseung Oz fan for life. Swing out, always swing out.
Aerisky
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States12129 Posts
September 16 2012 20:40 GMT
#14
Thank you so much for this

Amazing, thanks for making this, and yes a hundred times over. Implementing BW Carrier mechanics in HoTS beta would spice of the game like you wouldn't believe. I will never forget those crazy-ass carrier micro moments.
Jim while Johnny had had had had had had had; had had had had the better effect on the teacher.
Render
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States249 Posts
September 16 2012 20:40 GMT
#15
Agreeeeeeeeeeee. Thank you for showing these in perfect juxtaposition.
Rose my color is and white, pretty mouth and green my eyes.
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
September 16 2012 20:41 GMT
#16
YES! I've always wanted to talk about it but I couldn't figure out how to put it in words.
osmanic
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany200 Posts
September 16 2012 20:42 GMT
#17
hey man thats a really nice video, you should do a thread on the battle.net beta discussion
twitch.tv/manicx90 <- my master toss stream
Omri
Profile Joined September 2011
Israel638 Posts
September 16 2012 20:43 GMT
#18
Thank you for taking the time to make this video Tyler, I agree and hope Blizzard takes notice (:
miScythe
Profile Joined November 2011
Norway16 Posts
September 16 2012 20:46 GMT
#19
Wow. Wow, wow, wow. This is so cool. Would LOVE to see this kind of micro in Starcraft II. I'm all for experimenting with this in the beta. Blizzard should really watch this video, Carriers will be so much fun to see in pro-games..!

Thanks for this awesome insight, Tyler.
Liquid'NonY for president!
Chairman Ray
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States11903 Posts
September 16 2012 20:46 GMT
#20
Quite insightful, I didn't even know about that carrier micro
1 2 3 4 5 31 32 33 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Big Brain Bouts
16:00
#100
Reynor vs ClassicLIVE!
Serral vs Clem
RotterdaM1315
TKL 280
IndyStarCraft 228
Liquipedia
Cosmonarchy
16:00
Showmatch #3
OyAji vs Sziky
Sziky vs WolFix
WolFix vs OyAji
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 1315
TKL 280
IndyStarCraft 228
JuggernautJason34
EmSc Tv 12
MindelVK 11
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 30192
Calm 3479
Rain 1428
Horang2 982
BeSt 317
EffOrt 214
firebathero 177
Barracks 115
Yoon 65
Zeus 64
[ Show more ]
Mong 44
Movie 33
Dewaltoss 31
sas.Sziky 20
JulyZerg 11
yabsab 10
Dota 2
qojqva3145
XcaliburYe319
Counter-Strike
fl0m3958
olofmeister1515
Stewie2K254
Other Games
gofns14009
FrodaN1006
Grubby951
KnowMe151
Hui .100
QueenE83
C9.Mang077
Trikslyr73
Mew2King61
rGuardiaN15
OptimusSC27
Organizations
StarCraft 2
EmSc Tv 12
EmSc2Tv 12
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• Pr0nogo 9
• Michael_bg 4
• FirePhoenix2
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• TFBlade1163
Counter-Strike
• imaqtpie520
• Shiphtur168
Other Games
• Scarra914
• WagamamaTV393
• tFFMrPink 11
Upcoming Events
BSL Team Wars
1h 9m
Team Hawk vs Team Dewalt
BSL Team Wars
1h 9m
Team Hawk vs Team Bonyth
Code For Giants Cup
4h 39m
SC Evo League
18h 9m
TaeJa vs Cure
Rogue vs threepoint
ByuN vs Creator
MaNa vs Classic
Maestros of the Game
22h 9m
ShoWTimE vs Cham
GuMiho vs Ryung
Zoun vs Spirit
Rogue vs MaNa
[BSL 2025] Weekly
1d
SC Evo League
1d 18h
Maestros of the Game
1d 22h
SHIN vs Creator
Astrea vs Lambo
Bunny vs SKillous
HeRoMaRinE vs TriGGeR
BSL Team Wars
2 days
Team Bonyth vs Team Sziky
BSL Team Wars
2 days
Team Dewalt vs Team Sziky
[ Show More ]
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
PiGosaur Monday
4 days
LiuLi Cup
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
The PondCast
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Maru vs SHIN
MaNa vs MaxPax
RSL Revival
6 days
Reynor vs Astrea
Classic vs sOs
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 18: Qualifier 1
WardiTV Summer 2025
HCC Europe

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
ASL Season 20
Acropolis #4 - TS1
CSL Season 18: Qualifier 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025

Upcoming

CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
Maestros of the Game
EC S1
Sisters' Call Cup
Skyesports Masters 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.