On September 18 2012 18:26 TaShadan wrote: I doubt Blizzard will implement stuff that is not "noob" friendly. they would lose much money.
This chain of thought is so ridiculous and relates nothing to the discussion at hand.
Implementing this makes no difference to how accessable the game is, just adds an extra layer on top of what's already there. Would people who barely play in Bronze League get use out of this? probably not, if they did they'd improve faster.
"noobs" will get frustrated not being able to use it.
That's not true at all.
People in Bronze either play for fun or they play to improve. I don't think I've ever seen someone get really frustrated at an RTS for not being able to do things. Look at fighting games, new players can't do long combos, do they care? No.
ever played bw? i knew lots of mediocre players that quit after they were not able to get top level. but maybe thats in every game no matter how hard it is.
I played Broodwar for 2-3 years. I was really bad at it, but I enjoyed playing. I didn't care that I couldn't do the cool micro the pros could do, since I knew I wasn't as good as them.
Sorry for derailing this topic about carriers, I just said what I think needed to be said to quell these badly thought out and generalised opinions.
On September 18 2012 18:26 TaShadan wrote: I doubt Blizzard will implement stuff that is not "noob" friendly. they would lose much money.
This chain of thought is so ridiculous and relates nothing to the discussion at hand.
Implementing this makes no difference to how accessable the game is, just adds an extra layer on top of what's already there. Would people who barely play in Bronze League get use out of this? probably not, if they did they'd improve faster.
"noobs" will get frustrated not being able to use it.
That's not true at all.
People in Bronze either play for fun or they play to improve. I don't think I've ever seen someone get really frustrated at an RTS for not being able to do things. Look at fighting games, new players can't do long combos, do they care? No.
ever played bw? i knew lots of mediocre players that quit after they were not able to get top level and some of my friends never wanted to buy bw or play online cause its too hard for them, they instead play sc2 now cause its much more noob friendly. but maybe thats in every game no matter how hard it is.
Wouldn't those same people just quit now? Because even now mediocre players aren't going to take games off of anyone that plays in the GSL. What difference would carrier micro make to that? In my experience, if newbs find it fun, it's usually in the context of playing with friends. Many of those have no desire to improve. They just want to play the occasional game of Starcraft. All that mattered is that we had relatively balanced teams so that we could have some competitive games.
They feared when my mouse started clicking like crazy as I started pulling out vulture micro, but if we balanced the teams (off-race 1v2v2, Terran no tank usually worked) it didn't effect whether they wanted to play the game or not. They couldn't be bothered to learn the skill and so carried on right clicking their armies around the map.
well the thing with broodwar is that its not only about micro. its about the basic stuff that makes it more demanding and maybe thats why my friends didnt want to play it (moving probes to mine etc.). if a game is too hardcore the buyers might be mainly hardcore gamers not the common casual player. casual players dont want to invest much effort and energy for learning basic stuff.
PS: no i dont want to have casual rts games but in my oppinion browder likes it
i tried to create this yesterday but failed. tried again today and i have this
this is interceptors changing target in the leash range (between 8 and 12) im working on interceptors not redocking with the carrier while it moves right now. should have a second video out in an hour or two (depends how much i suck)
this is on SC2BW test map, which is why the sounds and model is different.
this is interceptors changing target in the leash range (between 8 and 12) im working on interceptors not redocking with the carrier while it moves right now. should have a second video out in an hour or two (depends how much i suck)
this is on SC2BW test map, which is why the sounds and model is different.
So a random guy on the internet made this small change in a couple of hours... well, thinking about blizzard time it sounds like we can expect blizzard to change it in the next 2 or 3 months then :-)
On September 18 2012 16:26 playa wrote: Lol, I'm done. You guys are clueless. Yeah, you're supposed to realize you're not supposed to issue the attack command against zealots or lings, but instead use patrol. Man, that's just so so obvious. You guys are amazing. Only a fool would practice trying to get better by practicing his attack command micro. You guys should never complain about Dustin Browder. There's no way he can be worse than this.
I agree that it should be more accessible, perhaps in the way dugokontov described. But in many cases knowing how to do it only gets you to the point where you can practice and improve it. I'm pretty sure I know almost everything there is to know about mutalisk behaviour, but there's still a huge difference between my micro and a pro Korean's.
Besides, this isn't even the point. I just want more cool micro in the game. I don't care if it's intuitive or unintuitive, if you have to look up instructions or if they're displayed on the tooltip, if it's based on bugs or on something intentional, if it's like BW or not like BW! As long as you give me more ways to do more with less, more of Day[9]'s frisbees!
On September 18 2012 10:04 playa wrote: I never knew how to micro carriers. There was way too much in BW that was esoteric. Important stuff that made a big difference, but it was next to impossible to know everything you needed to. Def not something a casual player would ever know. Unless blizzard wants to make tutorial videos like how to use patrol micro versus zealots and lings (BW), then I'm really against adding quirky things so a select few can get a big adv off by simply knowing how to manipulate units in weird ways.
Players like you who are only interested in positioning, a move and easy casting is what make sc2 too casual and boring at times. There are too little detailed mechanics that are missing which separate the pros from the semi pros.
If you are too lazy to know all these little tricks, you are probably too lazy to be even a semi pros. Maybe you simply find excuses for your failures to win games by thumbing people down.
Call me biased, but I would have been in the finals of the last WCG online tournament for BW if I simply knew how to exploit the carrier. I couldn't care less about micro tricks determining who wins games. Until everyone can know how to utilize units in ways that are anything but intuitive, I don't get it. You guys really need to stfu. If you want to make it BW, then go all the way. Bring back the macro. Bring back the tricks that only the old schoolers will know. You guys can't get over shit. Had to bring back the carrier. O no can't do without that. Bring back all the BW units. Fuck off.
you should probably stick to being a 'pro' in angry birds or some other casual game that doesn't require a lot of mechanics and nuances.
You should probably stick to not posting unless it's on a comedian forum. Why stop at adding back the carrier mechanics. You guys are smart and know what makes a game good. Add some random element to every unit. Show some imagination for christ sake. I don't think stalkers should be able to shoot unless you tell it to go in a circle first, and then you have to tell it to hold position and shift queue the attack. Only the most uber elite ballers will even be able to attack. I think the zealot should get a ranged attack if you spam the attack command 5 times within a second.
You can add random shit to every fucking unit, and it will increase the "depth." You guys have a weird fascination for what you know, whether it makes any fucking sense or not. I enjoy good micro. Good reaver micro is something to behold. I would just like to think that you wouldn't have to search through tl.net to learn how to micro units. Who the fuck is ever supposed to realize you're supposed to use patrol for vultures? Who is supposed to know you should attack your own building with carriers and etc, etc. It's so much bs. If it's not accessible, it's a joke.
You guys want difficulty, but, ironically, blizzard felt inclined to make this game a lot easier. Maybe if some of you guys were better, yourself, blizzard wouldn't have to do this for money and for the sake of the competitive scene. Add more difficulty. Keep adding to it so I can only watch Korean tournaments. Everyone is biased. The only sure thing is that is what would happen.
I seriously don't get why you don't want to add these mechanics to the Carrier. It's not like it's something you have to do or else it won't be able to do anything. It's an addition rather than a exchange.
With this mechanic, people can still choose to A-move the carrier and let it do its thing or they can choose to micro it. Even micro-ing it isn't a full on advantage as you are choosing to "babysit" your carriers instead of being able to do another thing. There's still a trade-off. With that being said, more decision making and strategy is also added. You have to ask "How do I spend my APM? Do I spend all my time during this engagement micro-ing my carriers so they will be used with maximum efficiency? Do I let them just attack and kill as much as they can without micro so I can macro back at home and just be ready for the next engagement? Do I do a little bit of both? How much of each? 50-50? 60-40? These are the types of questions you could ask with adding this feature.
This is why so many people are really pushing for this. It adds both to the mechanics aspect and the decision making aspect.
I want more micro to Carrier and other units, but I do agree with playa in one thing: "vulture patrol", "interceptors not returning in carrier when stop is used" and things like this are program bugs. You can't ask from developer team to include them in game like that. But, they can incorporate them in legal way by transforming bugs to features.
For example, instead of vulture being able to fire and move using patrol key, he could have ability "Throw grenade" on cool down that is same as attack speed. This ability should "Throw grenade without slowing down vulture". When vulture attacks, cool down is triggered as well. But, if you move, and manually press throw grenade, vulture will not slow down but it would fire up. In this case we have micro intensive unit, and its use is clear to anyone, without need to dig deep on net and try to find out exploits.
Same thing is with carrier. Why not introduce auto cast ability "Dock interceptors" that should "Return interceptors in carrier for repair when attack is completed and while Carrier is moving. If Carrier stops interceptors will dock with carrier anyway". Better do this than ask for user to press stop and than move. This way we have ability that requires same micro and is clear to everyone what will happen.
So, I'm for legal stuff that requires micro. It is not fair that I and someone who has 200+ APM can get same out of units. It is like playing with Jordan 1v1 and telling him he can only jump high as much as I do.
I wouldn't mind every unit to have same logic as "Throw grenade" example on vulture. It would attack regularly if it is not babysit, otherwise you could kite a bit and get some extra advantage. That is if you have enough APM to micro and macro.
I can only speak for myself when I say that while your vulture suggestion does add mirco, but I actually prefer it not being so obvious.
An advantage of not making it obvious is that when you start playing the game, you find that specific units act in a specific way. Then you go and watch a tournament like the OSL and go "How the hell are they doing that?" Then you realize that there is more to this game than meets the eye. If you're interested enough, then you start exploring more and more into these little things that you didn't know existed and try them out yourself. (Seriously not a big problem given that we have these thread, we have wikipedia and we can even chat people up during/after the game to discover these things.) You further realize that it's not just as simple as knowing how they do it. It also takes practice to do it perfectly and are even more amazed at the time and effort pro players put into the game. If you aren't interested enough, then you just play these units on the obvious aspects where all you have to do is either attack, focus fire or retreat and you never have to think about using the added feature of attacking without needing to stop (as with the vulture). You'll still have fun, but you just won't get maximum efficiency without learning it. Again. I am not speaking that everyone prefers it this way. I'm saying I like it this way and is a rational way of justifying it not being obvious.
As seen in the video, I am actually leaning towards saying that the SC2 carrier is a glitchy unit in itself. It's just that the glitch is actually disadvantagous to the person using the carrier. Even within leash range 1 interceptor actually goes back to the carrier when moving away a little. I think that's a huge glitch. In addition, as stated in the video, what is the purpose of having a leash range when units die so quickly and you just have to bring your carrier back to attack range to engage again? So even if you're a person who believes that glitches shouldn't be in the game, you still have to admit that there is something wrong with the SC2 carrier and Blizzard has to fix that.
this is interceptors changing target in the leash range (between 8 and 12) im working on interceptors not redocking with the carrier while it moves right now. should have a second video out in an hour or two (depends how much i suck)
this is on SC2BW test map, which is why the sounds and model is different.
Should link this in op to show blizzard and anyone else reading the thread how easy it would be to implement.
this is interceptors changing target in the leash range (between 8 and 12) im working on interceptors not redocking with the carrier while it moves right now. should have a second video out in an hour or two (depends how much i suck)
this is on SC2BW test map, which is why the sounds and model is different.
amazing how you manage to do it in such a short time
yeah great writeup and i generally agree that great micro should have great rewards it both makes it exiting for fans to watch and hightens the skill gap.
a few issues i see from blizzards part thoough it is not very intuitive if you aere not a sc/bw player, the same goes formuta stacking for instance, I don't think blizzard would implement something that does not make sense for players.
but where should the line be between pampering to the new or pampering to the old thats is a hard decision, but for my personal taste i would love for Blizz to implement more hardcore icro mechanicseven if they dont make sense just to have something cool to improve on and to make the spectators / caster go "omfg that was amazing"
On September 18 2012 15:26 MasterCynical wrote: Dustin browder's response on battlenet indicates openess to change, but theres an undertone that he doesn't like this. Maybe in just being pessimistic since blizzard has really annoyed me over the past few years.
But i really hope this change makes it, it would make carriers alot more entertaining to watch in esports
I read it as "If we abso-fucking-loutely have to change it then we may, may consider it, maybe" (but only if we keep harping on almost indefinitely) I do not take it as particularly positive except "yeah I saw it, so?"
this is interceptors changing target in the leash range (between 8 and 12) im working on interceptors not redocking with the carrier while it moves right now. should have a second video out in an hour or two (depends how much i suck)
this is on SC2BW test map, which is why the sounds and model is different.
amazing how you manage to do it in such a short time
this is interceptors changing target in the leash range (between 8 and 12) im working on interceptors not redocking with the carrier while it moves right now. should have a second video out in an hour or two (depends how much i suck)
this is on SC2BW test map, which is why the sounds and model is different.
Incredible.. So this is super easy to fix.. Is this good news or bad news, though?
this is interceptors changing target in the leash range (between 8 and 12) im working on interceptors not redocking with the carrier while it moves right now. should have a second video out in an hour or two (depends how much i suck)
this is on SC2BW test map, which is why the sounds and model is different.
Incredible.. So this is super easy to fix.. Is this good news or bad news, though?
Both... it shows that it can be done. But it also shows that it most likely will not be done, cause Blizzard doesnt want to.
this is interceptors changing target in the leash range (between 8 and 12) im working on interceptors not redocking with the carrier while it moves right now. should have a second video out in an hour or two (depends how much i suck)
this is on SC2BW test map, which is why the sounds and model is different.
So a random guy on the internet made this small change in a couple of hours... well, thinking about blizzard time it sounds like we can expect blizzard to change it in the next 2 or 3 months then :-)
It took them over a year to get a chatfunction. Dont hold your hopes up. Maybe we can get it for the second expansion if were lucky.
this is interceptors changing target in the leash range (between 8 and 12) im working on interceptors not redocking with the carrier while it moves right now. should have a second video out in an hour or two (depends how much i suck)
this is on SC2BW test map, which is why the sounds and model is different.
So a random guy on the internet made this small change in a couple of hours... well, thinking about blizzard time it sounds like we can expect blizzard to change it in the next 2 or 3 months then :-)
It took them over a year to get a chatfunction. Dont hold your hopes up. Maybe we can get it for the second expansion if were lucky.
We have to be very lucky... they are still working on watching replays together, clan functions and tournament support.
this is interceptors changing target in the leash range (between 8 and 12) im working on interceptors not redocking with the carrier while it moves right now. should have a second video out in an hour or two (depends how much i suck)
this is on SC2BW test map, which is why the sounds and model is different.
Incredible.. So this is super easy to fix.. Is this good news or bad news, though?
it wasn't super easy to do through the map editor, but on Blizzard's end with the source code. pretty easy yea. i simply created my own memory space where i stored the carrier and their interceptors and whenever a carrier was ordered to attack it checked the range. if under 12. ordered all it's interceptors to attack the new target. creating and populating the variables was more difficult than the two simple checks and issue order triggers.
this is interceptors changing target in the leash range (between 8 and 12) im working on interceptors not redocking with the carrier while it moves right now. should have a second video out in an hour or two (depends how much i suck)
this is on SC2BW test map, which is why the sounds and model is different.
God that model of the carrier is so fucking good > I don't like the new one (which incidentally is the original "tempest" model from before SC2 came out) Sigh.
EPT
I don't like the new one (which incidentally is the original "tempest" model from before SC2 came out) 
