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On September 18 2012 12:19 moskonia wrote:
When looking at the game you need to decide what matters more, the strategy aspect, or the mechanics aspect. Brood war was much more about the mechanics part, there were really hard and sometimes really annoying stuff that made it impossible to play at a high level without fast hands, and that is unlike SC2 which while having still not having a reachable skill ceiling is much more easy and "casual" which lets slower players compete with faster players.
I think SC2 is ways better then BW at that aspect; everyone can play at a decent level (diamond - master), even if you ae really slow, as long as you learn counters, a build order and general strategy you will get high (not able to compete with even semi-pro's, but still pretty high, unlike BW where unless you had an enormous amount of APM you were doomed to be forever a noob, even if you had great strategy and tactics.
The game should always allow for A-move and simple management, unless you can do it at the casual level it is not a part of the game that is fun for everyone. I don't mind cool tricks and micro that require high level, as long as simple play and basic micro is still possible. For example - as long as the carrier can still do OK without micro it is OK to put in some sort of trick.
I know you guys are always bitching about how SC2 is lame since it is casual and BW was so hard and therefore good, but what the developers of SC2 strive for is to make the game not only good for the pro's and the viewers, but for the casual player-base as well, and I really like that, I don't want to suffer when I play. I want to focus on the strategy and following my gameplan, not focus on putting my workers to mine and trying to fix the dumb AI and UI.
TL;DR Restrictions are bad, extra possible micro is good, therefore the carrier trick is good.
EDIT: lol Xiphos you sure love caps, that just requires the saying: "you mad bro?"
Am I mad because I played a superior game?
No
Am I mad because I experienced the godlike aura given by the players?
No I am not.
Am I mad because I know that I know that my gaming skills are better than yours?
Of course not
Am I mad because the sequel would never became as great of culture impact than its dad with its dwindling fanbase?
Definitely not.
Before you start to instill this 'madness' into others, its time for a healthy dosage of reality check.
By the way, mechanics is way harder to harness than decisions.
Decisions, I can change the selection of choices just like that in a snap of finger.
Mechanics, now that's the hard part.
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On September 18 2012 12:19 moskonia wrote:
When looking at the game you need to decide what matters more, the strategy aspect, or the mechanics aspect. Brood war was much more about the mechanics part, there were really hard and sometimes really annoying stuff that made it impossible to play at a high level without fast hands, and that is unlike SC2 which while having still not having a reachable skill ceiling is much more easy and "casual" which lets slower players compete with faster players.
I think SC2 is ways better then BW at that aspect; everyone can play at a decent level (diamond - master), even if you ae really slow, as long as you learn counters, a build order and general strategy you will get high (not able to compete with even semi-pro's, but still pretty high, unlike BW where unless you had an enormous amount of APM you were doomed to be forever a noob, even if you had great strategy and tactics.
The game should always allow for A-move and simple management, unless you can do it at the casual level it is not a part of the game that is fun for everyone. I don't mind cool tricks and micro that require high level, as long as simple play and basic micro is still possible. For example - as long as the carrier can still do OK without micro it is OK to put in some sort of trick.
I know you guys are always bitching about how SC2 is lame since it is casual and BW was so hard and therefore good, but what the developers of SC2 strive for is to make the game not only good for the pro's and the viewers, but for the casual player-base as well, and I really like that, I don't want to suffer when I play. I want to focus on the strategy and following my gameplan, not focus on putting my workers to mine and trying to fix the dumb AI and UI.
TL;DR Restrictions are bad, extra possible micro is good, therefore the carrier trick is good.
EDIT: lol Xiphos you sure love caps, that just requires the saying: "you mad bro?"
By this logic, angry birds is the best game ever.
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So many mad people in this thread all of a sudden... it was such a nice thread 4 hours ago.
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On September 18 2012 12:44 Mataza wrote:
Guys, this is still off topic.
Where are the mods when you need them?
This shouldn´t be BW vs SC2 if I recall correctly.
There were good things about BW and there were bad things too. I am sure nobody misses the special challenge of getting dragoons down a small diagonal ramp.
Carrier Micro though is one of the good aspects that should be coming over. Incidentally, that´s also the FUCKING TOPIC of this thread.
Amen.
That was just frustration pure for a BW noob like me...
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Educational!! I didn't know you could do that in BW.
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On September 18 2012 11:35 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 11:25 Zaurus wrote:On September 18 2012 10:04 playa wrote:
I never knew how to micro carriers. There was way too much in BW that was esoteric. Important stuff that made a big difference, but it was next to impossible to know everything you needed to. Def not something a casual player would ever know. Unless blizzard wants to make tutorial videos like how to use patrol micro versus zealots and lings (BW), then I'm really against adding quirky things so a select few can get a big adv off by simply knowing how to manipulate units in weird ways. Players like you who are only interested in positioning, a move and easy casting is what make sc2 too casual and boring at times. There are too little detailed mechanics that are missing which separate the pros from the semi pros. If you are too lazy to know all these little tricks, you are probably too lazy to be even a semi pros. Maybe you simply find excuses for your failures to win games by thumbing people down. Call me biased, but I would have been in the finals of the last WCG online tournament for BW if I simply knew how to exploit the carrier. I couldn't care less about micro tricks determining who wins games. Until everyone can know how to utilize units in ways that are anything but intuitive, I don't get it. You guys really need to stfu. If you want to make it BW, then go all the way. Bring back the macro. Bring back the tricks that only the old schoolers will know. You guys can't get over shit. Had to bring back the carrier. O no can't do without that. Bring back all the BW units. Fuck off.
I'm confused. All these "tricks" are quirks that players found themselves through practice and experimentation. Why does anyone owe you a tutorial video on how to use all these techniques? If carrier micro is really what kept you out of the finals of the WCG, then the guy who beat you (or progressed farther) with correct carrier micro deserves the spot in the finals because he was better prepared than you. He not only learned the appropriate strategies, but he also took the time to learn the micro. This information is available on the Internet; it's not like you are the one who had to invent these techniques.
The way I discovered most of these is by playing a lot of Starcraft and noticing how my units acted. Then when I watched pro-games or faced someone on Bnet that was really good (read: Korean), I would notice their units would act in ways completely different from mine. I wondered how their vultures would never seem to stop moving when attacking lings and zealots. I tried using A-move, Hold position, and nothing worked that well. I did a quick google search, and I instantly found posts about the superiority of using patrol-move. I thought it was the coolest thing ever, and it made me want to find out more tricks. I saw Nada avoiding lurker spikes, which I never knew was possible. I practiced until I could do it too. Same thing with reaver+shuttle micro. I would make custom games against the computer and put on "power overwhelming" so that I could just practice targeting with my reaver and micro-ing my shuttle. It's stuff like this that made the game awesome and increased the longevity of the game for me. All it takes to learn these things is observation and curiosity followed by practice....
PS There were UMS micro maps that were pretty much only beatable using the correct micro tricks. If you played them a few times, you could easily come across someone that beat the levels. Then, all you had to do was ask, and most people were nice enough to share the tricks they knew.
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On September 18 2012 11:35 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 11:25 Zaurus wrote:On September 18 2012 10:04 playa wrote:
I never knew how to micro carriers. There was way too much in BW that was esoteric. Important stuff that made a big difference, but it was next to impossible to know everything you needed to. Def not something a casual player would ever know. Unless blizzard wants to make tutorial videos like how to use patrol micro versus zealots and lings (BW), then I'm really against adding quirky things so a select few can get a big adv off by simply knowing how to manipulate units in weird ways. Players like you who are only interested in positioning, a move and easy casting is what make sc2 too casual and boring at times. There are too little detailed mechanics that are missing which separate the pros from the semi pros. If you are too lazy to know all these little tricks, you are probably too lazy to be even a semi pros. Maybe you simply find excuses for your failures to win games by thumbing people down. Call me biased, but I would have been in the finals of the last WCG online tournament for BW if I simply knew how to exploit the carrier. I couldn't care less about micro tricks determining who wins games. Until everyone can know how to utilize units in ways that are anything but intuitive, I don't get it. You guys really need to stfu. If you want to make it BW, then go all the way. Bring back the macro. Bring back the tricks that only the old schoolers will know. You guys can't get over shit. Had to bring back the carrier. O no can't do without that. Bring back all the BW units. Fuck off.
It's not about making the game into BW, it's about having the best aspects of both games. It's about building on with consideration and effort what was built partly by coincidence.
Your bringing up intuition was addressed earlier. BW carriers are not less intuitive just because they have more dimensions to them. You can always A-move it if you like. If anything, the SC2 carrier is less intuitive because it doesn't do so many of the things that we have known "carriers" to do for over a decade, and in fact when you try to do the same micro, it actually hurts you and is a waste of your multitask.
Your lambasting of skilled players employing micro to gain an advantage over their opponents doesn't make sense. It's not an auto-win trick like a cheat code. If you tried to get to the top of a ladder or the finals of a tournament using carrier micro, you would realize a couple games in that every time you tried to use carriers you got killed because you weren't reading your opponent's build, or all your bases got dropped and killed because you don't have the multitask to focus on anything but your carriers. The battle isn't fought on the level of "I know the old-school secrets of carrier micro" versus "I have cloaked wraiths using the ancient art of moving shot." It's on the level of "I am multitasking and you're multitasking, and we need to figure out what to prioritize with our APM, which will only be effective if there are ways to micro your units in this game that reward the effort you put in."
If you were playing a game of chess and you fell into the Tarrasch Trap in the Ruy Lopez, would you say your opponent was a worse chess player and he only beat you because he knew some old-school trick that shouldn't be part of the game? Would you expect to improve, let alone enjoy yourself, with that attitude at all?
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I had shitty mechanics but I loved BW. So much decision making in that game despite low mechanics. Choosing to unit control or choosing to macro or choosing to do anything is a huge decision in that game. From the first pylon placement on, BW had all the best decision making in the world. The first pylon decides how the first 8 minutes is going to play out...
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On September 18 2012 11:35 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 11:25 Zaurus wrote:On September 18 2012 10:04 playa wrote:
I never knew how to micro carriers. There was way too much in BW that was esoteric. Important stuff that made a big difference, but it was next to impossible to know everything you needed to. Def not something a casual player would ever know. Unless blizzard wants to make tutorial videos like how to use patrol micro versus zealots and lings (BW), then I'm really against adding quirky things so a select few can get a big adv off by simply knowing how to manipulate units in weird ways. Players like you who are only interested in positioning, a move and easy casting is what make sc2 too casual and boring at times. There are too little detailed mechanics that are missing which separate the pros from the semi pros. If you are too lazy to know all these little tricks, you are probably too lazy to be even a semi pros. Maybe you simply find excuses for your failures to win games by thumbing people down. Call me biased, but I would have been in the finals of the last WCG online tournament for BW if I simply knew how to exploit the carrier. I couldn't care less about micro tricks determining who wins games. Until everyone can know how to utilize units in ways that are anything but intuitive, I don't get it. You guys really need to stfu. If you want to make it BW, then go all the way. Bring back the macro. Bring back the tricks that only the old schoolers will know. You guys can't get over shit. Had to bring back the carrier. O no can't do without that. Bring back all the BW units. Fuck off.
you should probably stick to being a 'pro' in angry birds or some other casual game that doesn't require a lot of mechanics and nuances.
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Excellent post, was wondering why the carrier seemed so strong in BW (never played watched a bit) and extremely hard to capitalize on its cost and build time in sc2
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Blizzard has heard you! Someone posted a thread on Battle.net's forums linking to LiquidNony's video. A Blizzard developer posting under the name Rock (believed to be D. Browders Screen name) replied in this way:
We have seen the video. We are very focused on Heart of the Swarm units right now and we don't know what the Carrier will be doing in the beta with all of the new units available on the Stargate. Will it see more use? Less use? We aren't going to make any changes immediately but we will certainly discuss it.
Thank you for the post and thanks to the maker of the video.
Is it lip service? Or could it be the beginning of Blizzard taking a serious look at redesigning the Carrier? Judge for yourself.
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I never played Brood War, but i would really like the carrier micro in SC2! nice video
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Dustin browder's response on battlenet indicates openess to change, but theres an undertone that he doesn't like this. Maybe in just being pessimistic since blizzard has really annoyed me over the past few years.
But i really hope this change makes it, it would make carriers alot more entertaining to watch in esports
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Beautiful. I remember all of this from BroodWar. Mass Carriers were incredibly fun.
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Brilliant posts by xiphos throughout. This is just one of many examples of depth that could easily be added.
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On September 18 2012 04:19 EatThePath wrote:
Hey, nice work! I tried it out and the leash range targeting works perfectly. There was a weird glitch where if you move out of range and the interceptors return, an attack command causes the carriers to move toward the target until they reach the extent of leash range (12?) and then just sit there. Spamming attack or move commands doesn't fix it, you have to issue a stop command and then try attacking again, at which point the carriers will move to 8 range and launch interceptors.[/QUOTE]
Fixed. I did throw this together in 30 minutes afterall, after having a stroke of inspiration at watching Nony's video.
The carrier's attack now seems to work perfectly compared to the BW video demo of the leash target micro.
Search: Bizarro Carrier on NA arcade to try it out.
Also, would there be any interest in me publishing a proper WoL melee map (Cloud kingdom probably) with this carrier change to see how the modified carriers feel in real combat? It would be quite vexing if BW carrier micro turned out to be still not enough to make a difference against infestor-brood lord or vikings.
I only have an NA account however.
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On September 18 2012 14:51 AlmondCS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 11:35 playa wrote:On September 18 2012 11:25 Zaurus wrote:On September 18 2012 10:04 playa wrote:
I never knew how to micro carriers. There was way too much in BW that was esoteric. Important stuff that made a big difference, but it was next to impossible to know everything you needed to. Def not something a casual player would ever know. Unless blizzard wants to make tutorial videos like how to use patrol micro versus zealots and lings (BW), then I'm really against adding quirky things so a select few can get a big adv off by simply knowing how to manipulate units in weird ways. Players like you who are only interested in positioning, a move and easy casting is what make sc2 too casual and boring at times. There are too little detailed mechanics that are missing which separate the pros from the semi pros. If you are too lazy to know all these little tricks, you are probably too lazy to be even a semi pros. Maybe you simply find excuses for your failures to win games by thumbing people down. Call me biased, but I would have been in the finals of the last WCG online tournament for BW if I simply knew how to exploit the carrier. I couldn't care less about micro tricks determining who wins games. Until everyone can know how to utilize units in ways that are anything but intuitive, I don't get it. You guys really need to stfu. If you want to make it BW, then go all the way. Bring back the macro. Bring back the tricks that only the old schoolers will know. You guys can't get over shit. Had to bring back the carrier. O no can't do without that. Bring back all the BW units. Fuck off. you should probably stick to being a 'pro' in angry birds or some other casual game that doesn't require a lot of mechanics and nuances.
You should probably stick to not posting unless it's on a comedian forum. Why stop at adding back the carrier mechanics. You guys are smart and know what makes a game good. Add some random element to every unit. Show some imagination for christ sake. I don't think stalkers should be able to shoot unless you tell it to go in a circle first, and then you have to tell it to hold position and shift queue the attack. Only the most uber elite ballers will even be able to attack. I think the zealot should get a ranged attack if you spam the attack command 5 times within a second.
You can add random shit to every fucking unit, and it will increase the "depth." You guys have a weird fascination for what you know, whether it makes any fucking sense or not. I enjoy good micro. Good reaver micro is something to behold. I would just like to think that you wouldn't have to search through tl.net to learn how to micro units. Who the fuck is ever supposed to realize you're supposed to use patrol for vultures? Who is supposed to know you should attack your own building with carriers and etc, etc. It's so much bs. If it's not accessible, it's a joke.
You guys want difficulty, but, ironically, blizzard felt inclined to make this game a lot easier. Maybe if some of you guys were better, yourself, blizzard wouldn't have to do this for money and for the sake of the competitive scene. Add more difficulty. Keep adding to it so I can only watch Korean tournaments. Everyone is biased. The only sure thing is that is what would happen.
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mechanics before decision making, that should be the general rule of thumb for rts's, xiphos is a dick but the point he brings out is correct
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It seems like you're speaking directly to Blizzard, especially at the end there. What are the chances of them watching this video? Have you sent it to them, or are you just crossing your fingers?
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On September 18 2012 15:01 Serz wrote:
Excellent post, was wondering why the carrier seemed so strong in BW (never played watched a bit) and extremely hard to capitalize on its cost and build time in sc2
carrier is not strong when is scouted. micro helps a bit but is definitely not op. . the only way to have entertaining game is to have controls implemented.
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EPT
