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On September 18 2012 10:49 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 10:35 Falling wrote:On September 18 2012 10:15 playa wrote:On September 18 2012 10:12 GolemMadness wrote:On September 18 2012 10:04 playa wrote:
I never knew how to micro carriers. There was way too much in BW that was esoteric. Important stuff that made a big difference, but it was next to impossible to know everything you needed to. Def not something a casual player would ever know. Unless blizzard wants to make tutorial videos like how to use patrol micro versus zealots and lings (BW), then I'm really against adding quirky things so a select few can get a big adv off by simply knowing how to manipulate units in weird ways. Yeah, screw the game having some depth to it. Incidentally, if you're a casual player, then it doesn't matter anyways. You'll be playing against other casual players who'll presumably have around the same level of knowledge as you, so it won't make a difference. If you want to keep adding depth, you'll end up like BW. I had already qualified for WCG US before I even learned about patrol micro for vultures, which is freaking huge to know. Only the most hardcore people that have been around for ever will even have a chance to know all this random stuff. If you want to add "depth," make sure it's accessible. You shouldn't have to scour every thread on tl.net to learn "magic tricks." You do realize we're living in age where information is distributed really, really fast. These sort of things would not be these carefully guarded secrets. I joined BW very late and I'm aware of most of the BW micro tricks. I'm rubbish at pretty much all of them, but I'm well aware of them. On September 18 2012 10:29 playa wrote:
Everyone is considered a pro in SC 2, despite being no better than they were in BW or putting in any more effort. There's always going to be a lot of people that simply have no clue, no matter what level of a player they are. I'm just saying, if you're not prepared to make tricks accessible to everyone, then it shouldn't happen.
Depth... If you can make better decisions than your opponent, then I don't have a problem with you winning. I'm not even saying I'm against adding things like this... so not sure how reasonable you are. That said, why not petition for the macro mechanics to go back to how they were in BW. It makes good macro all the more impressive... What's the difference. But it is accessible to everyone. It's just a matter of learning. Do you take out backwards skating out of hockey because some people don't want to learn? It's there if you want to, but if you just want to play casual, pond hockey you can be perfectly happy skating forwards and never backwards. These will not be deep, dark secrets. They'll be widely available to everyone... just like Marine splitting. But not everyone is MKP. Do we get rid of the marine split because not everyone can hack it? It's always there waiting, something to aspire to. Give me a break. Yeah, I would have been playing for years without using patrol micro on vultures if I knew that made them more responsive. I'm going to start playing with only 1 hand. I just like doing that kinda shit. How about make it more accessible. You're just being a clown.
I can't tell what this post is trying to say. I assume you are trying to say that being able to do moving shot on mutas wraiths corsairs or somehow on valkyries if you are the one guy in the world who can do it, patrol micro on vults, carrier micro, reaver/shuttle micro, mudang storms, zealot bombs, zealot mine clearings, zergling mine clearings, marine splits vs lurkers, dmatrix marine lurker decoys, cloning scourge vs mutalisks, cloning yamatos vs battlecruisers, cloning lockdowns vs carriers, clearing mines without taking damage by using a shuttle, magic boxing for surrounds and concaves, wraith surrounds of valkyries, storm dodging, pushing with lurker/ling, wraith vs wraith dodging, positioning a mech army, clearing mines without detection, et al. is making your game less accessible. This is a non-issue. You can always attack move if you like. Flocking mutalisks with magic boxes instead of stacking them is even favorable against splash units. The issue is at the moment the choice is too often A-move or bust.
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On September 18 2012 10:04 playa wrote:
I never knew how to micro carriers. There was way too much in BW that was esoteric. Important stuff that made a big difference, but it was next to impossible to know everything you needed to. Def not something a casual player would ever know. Unless blizzard wants to make tutorial videos like how to use patrol micro versus zealots and lings (BW), then I'm really against adding quirky things so a select few can get a big adv off by simply knowing how to manipulate units in weird ways.
that's actually the sad reality i, and many others have come to terms with in sc2.
no, these tricks and quirks were what made bw so much fun.
once the game becomes designed for casuals 100%, then it'll lose its hardcore fans that created tlnet.
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Northern Ireland24512 Posts
Are people actually taking that Sinensis post seriously lol?
Anyway at least Browder has claimed to be aware of this video and has watched it, indeed thanking Tyler for making it. So, if the Carrier remains in its current form they can't claim ignorance, there's lots of extra juice in the unit if you make it microable
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The point is, why should MarineKingPrime be able to be better than me at Starcraft? What right does he have? We both paid the same amount for the game, we should both have an equal chance of winning. That's the only way it's fair.I hate when there's ALWAYS room for me to improve at something... so annoying... trading effort for wins isn't fair because then the guy who tries the hardest always wins and that's imbalanced. Games should be more about who follows the rules the best, and everyone should know the rules, that way everyone can win and it's fair. It also improves the spectator experience because then anyone will know what happens next all the time.... -.-The guy below me knows what I'm talking about.
Not sure if trolling or not. You are suggesting a game that is entirely built upon learning the rules, without any micro ability what so ever. You do realize this is a key part of starcraft as a real time strategy game? If you do not like this style of play, you could play Heroes of Might and Magic, or Chess, or a whole lot of other games that are out.
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Canada11328 Posts
On September 18 2012 11:17 stard1n wrote:Show nested quote +The point is, why should MarineKingPrime be able to be better than me at Starcraft? What right does he have? We both paid the same amount for the game, we should both have an equal chance of winning. That's the only way it's fair.I hate when there's ALWAYS room for me to improve at something... so annoying... trading effort for wins isn't fair because then the guy who tries the hardest always wins and that's imbalanced. Games should be more about who follows the rules the best, and everyone should know the rules, that way everyone can win and it's fair. It also improves the spectator experience because then anyone will know what happens next all the time.... -.-The guy below me knows what I'm talking about. Not sure if trolling or not. You are suggesting a game that is entirely built upon learning the rules, without any micro ability what so ever. You do realize this is a key part of starcraft as a real time strategy game? If you do not like this style of play, you could play Heroes of Might and Magic, or Chess, or a whole lot of other games that are out.
I got too into arguing with playa and missed Sinensis' sarcasm as well.
He isn't serious.
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I got too into arguing with playa and missed the sarcasm as well.
He isn't serious.
Lol ok thanks :D
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On September 18 2012 10:04 playa wrote:
I never knew how to micro carriers. There was way too much in BW that was esoteric. Important stuff that made a big difference, but it was next to impossible to know everything you needed to. Def not something a casual player would ever know. Unless blizzard wants to make tutorial videos like how to use patrol micro versus zealots and lings (BW), then I'm really against adding quirky things so a select few can get a big adv off by simply knowing how to manipulate units in weird ways.
Players like you who are only interested in positioning, a move and easy casting is what make sc2 too casual and boring at times. There are too little detailed mechanics that are missing which separate the pros from the semi pros.
If you are too lazy to know all these little tricks, you are probably too lazy to be even a semi pros. Maybe you simply find excuses for your failures to win games by thumbing people down.
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On September 18 2012 11:25 Zaurus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 10:04 playa wrote:
I never knew how to micro carriers. There was way too much in BW that was esoteric. Important stuff that made a big difference, but it was next to impossible to know everything you needed to. Def not something a casual player would ever know. Unless blizzard wants to make tutorial videos like how to use patrol micro versus zealots and lings (BW), then I'm really against adding quirky things so a select few can get a big adv off by simply knowing how to manipulate units in weird ways. Players like you who are only interested in positioning, a move and easy casting is what make sc2 too casual and boring at times. There are too little detailed mechanics that are missing which separate the pros from the semi pros. If you are too lazy to know all these little tricks, you are probably too lazy to be even a semi pros. Maybe you simply find excuses for your failures to win games by thumbing people down.
Call me biased, but I would have been in the finals of the last WCG online tournament for BW if I simply knew how to exploit the carrier. I couldn't care less about micro tricks determining who wins games. Until everyone can know how to utilize units in ways that are anything but intuitive, I don't get it. You guys really need to stfu. If you want to make it BW, then go all the way. Bring back the macro. Bring back the tricks that only the old schoolers will know. You guys can't get over shit. Had to bring back the carrier. O no can't do without that. Bring back all the BW units. Fuck off.
User was warned for this post
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On September 18 2012 11:17 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 11:17 stard1n wrote:The point is, why should MarineKingPrime be able to be better than me at Starcraft? What right does he have? We both paid the same amount for the game, we should both have an equal chance of winning. That's the only way it's fair.I hate when there's ALWAYS room for me to improve at something... so annoying... trading effort for wins isn't fair because then the guy who tries the hardest always wins and that's imbalanced. Games should be more about who follows the rules the best, and everyone should know the rules, that way everyone can win and it's fair. It also improves the spectator experience because then anyone will know what happens next all the time.... -.-The guy below me knows what I'm talking about. Not sure if trolling or not. You are suggesting a game that is entirely built upon learning the rules, without any micro ability what so ever. You do realize this is a key part of starcraft as a real time strategy game? If you do not like this style of play, you could play Heroes of Might and Magic, or Chess, or a whole lot of other games that are out. I got too into arguing with playa and missed the sarcasm as well. He isn't serious.
Lol your estimation is kind of off.
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Could we stop the personal attack and the trolling already?
Browders job isn´t to please TeamLiquid, even if it could go a long way if he did.
You´re not helping any case by writing sarcastic things on the internet, because on the internet there are always people who are actually convinced of the things you write in jest.
At this point we got a response from the Browder, so I guess we can sit back until the next Beta patch comes around. Should´nt be too long.
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i dont understand the importances of browder watching this clip. bw was a blizzard game so i hope to god the current developers at least understood the mechanics of bw. if they didn't and needed this clip to explain to them the mechanics of a game they made then why the hell the hell are they working on starcraft 2.
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On September 18 2012 11:46 Tsutchie wrote:
i dont understand the importances of browder watching this clip. bw was a blizzard game so i hope to god the current developers at least understood the mechanics of bw. if they didn't and needed this clip to explain to them the mechanics of a game they made then why the hell the hell are they working on starcraft 2.
The importance is they f'd up with protoss in Heart of the Swarm. So, now, they want to show that they are really taking the opinions of pros into consideration. They are probably out of ideas. If the next ideas fail, at least they can say "hey, see, you guys suck too. It's harder than it looks, isn't it?" It's a win/win for them, unless they believe they aren't clueless. If you spent 2 years and came up with those units... you would be taking opinions from bronze players and doing anything to save face, too.
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On September 18 2012 11:46 Tsutchie wrote:
i dont understand the importances of browder watching this clip. bw was a blizzard game so i hope to god the current developers at least understood the mechanics of bw. if they didn't and needed this clip to explain to them the mechanics of a game they made then why the hell the hell are they working on starcraft 2.
The people who made SC2 made Command and Conquer, not Brood War. The people who made bnet 2.0 made xbox live, not bnet 1.0. Nothing is the same anymore.
Blizzard also has different "owners." Sc2, if you look at it from a staff perspective, should be something like Command and Conquer, xbox live, and Call of Duty mixed together.
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On September 18 2012 11:46 Tsutchie wrote:
i dont understand the importances of browder watching this clip. bw was a blizzard game so i hope to god the current developers at least understood the mechanics of bw. if they didn't and needed this clip to explain to them the mechanics of a game they made then why the hell the hell are they working on starcraft 2.
They don't, its a completely different team than the BW days.
Its just a bunch of guys that looked at BW unit and went "Huh, what is this game?" "ARGH!!! LOOOK AT ALL CODE!!!! SOOO MUCH GLITCH!!!!"
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On September 18 2012 07:47 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 07:03 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:On September 18 2012 05:55 Falling wrote:On September 18 2012 05:07 niteReloaded wrote:On September 17 2012 05:21 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Continuous deployment of interceptors while moving I think is really really cool but is the easiest thing to classify as a buggy behavior. I hope we can get it though because it takes so much attention and skill to use effectively. It is very strong but becomes incredibly difficult to do as soon as your opponent forces action in two places at once. So the players are countering each other by doing increasingly difficult strategies and that is AWESOME. The protoss player got the carriers knowing they'll be sufficiently effective ONLY IF he can pull off this micro. The enemy's response is not to bang his head against this really strong micro but rather to split the protoss's attention, punishing him for having tunnel vision on his carriers. Someone is gonna make a mistake and miscalculate and that's how the game should be decided.
If the continuous deployment of interceptors ISN'T in the game, then interceptor healing is pretty much just a straight buff. There isn't really any tension if both things aren't in the game. See, concepts like 'tension' are beyond a brain like Dustin Browder's, I think stuff of that level doesn't even cross his mind. I bet if he reads this, he'll start wondering and ask himself... "Which part of SC2 covers this tension Tyler talks about, lasers or rocks? What should we do to get more tension.... Hm, let's buff rocks." I think that's a little unfair. If this thread is any indication, there have been sudden revelatory 'aha' moments for several people. And this is after a couple years of people trying to explain how carrier micro works and getting dismissed as 'elitists.' What it took was a very concise compare/contrast video demonstration by Tyler. If that can happen with people on this thread, there's no reason why it can't happen with Blizzard. Exactly, the dismissive, aggressive nature of the posts were always frustrating. Also the BW enthusiasts are sometimes just stark raving fucking mad. Yes skill is important but there comes a point where compromise is insane. I don't understand - compromise between skill and what else exactly? Show nested quote +Liimiting how many units you can select or buildings is just nuts for example. Yet I saw people push for that and they wondered why the new people hated the idea. And yet every design team that worked on a Blizzard RTS pre-Browder & co has made a conscious design decision to keep the limit on control groups. I'm pretty sure there's a lot of people that could vouch for their sanity.
A compromise between being fun to play and just stupidly awkwardly difficult for the sake of being difficult. I'm a major proponent of the command queueing and unit selection advantages from Warcraft 3 (it still blows my mind how many ignorant BW goons were confused about these 'new abilities, amazing!!' which were 5 years old when SC2 shipped)
I agree with a lot of the what the BW guys say, in hindsight as I've learnt a lot - but I don't agree with ridiculous shit. I maintain that multi-building selection for example is just bloody logcal, yet I saw nutcases pushing against that too. Hence my comment regarding compromise.
This carrier discussion (back on topic) is most certainly though in the realm of fitting both parties and presented politely, clearly and easily in video form, anyone can understand how it requires skill and is useful. This is how the BW gurus should've presented stuff 2 years ago, instead of alienating newbies to the game with insults and outlandish claims.
(fortunately, it's mostly stopped now)
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oh god Blizzard please hears Tyler's voice for all Aiur
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On September 18 2012 12:01 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 07:47 Talin wrote:On September 18 2012 07:03 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:On September 18 2012 05:55 Falling wrote:On September 18 2012 05:07 niteReloaded wrote:On September 17 2012 05:21 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Continuous deployment of interceptors while moving I think is really really cool but is the easiest thing to classify as a buggy behavior. I hope we can get it though because it takes so much attention and skill to use effectively. It is very strong but becomes incredibly difficult to do as soon as your opponent forces action in two places at once. So the players are countering each other by doing increasingly difficult strategies and that is AWESOME. The protoss player got the carriers knowing they'll be sufficiently effective ONLY IF he can pull off this micro. The enemy's response is not to bang his head against this really strong micro but rather to split the protoss's attention, punishing him for having tunnel vision on his carriers. Someone is gonna make a mistake and miscalculate and that's how the game should be decided.
If the continuous deployment of interceptors ISN'T in the game, then interceptor healing is pretty much just a straight buff. There isn't really any tension if both things aren't in the game. See, concepts like 'tension' are beyond a brain like Dustin Browder's, I think stuff of that level doesn't even cross his mind. I bet if he reads this, he'll start wondering and ask himself... "Which part of SC2 covers this tension Tyler talks about, lasers or rocks? What should we do to get more tension.... Hm, let's buff rocks." I think that's a little unfair. If this thread is any indication, there have been sudden revelatory 'aha' moments for several people. And this is after a couple years of people trying to explain how carrier micro works and getting dismissed as 'elitists.' What it took was a very concise compare/contrast video demonstration by Tyler. If that can happen with people on this thread, there's no reason why it can't happen with Blizzard. Exactly, the dismissive, aggressive nature of the posts were always frustrating. Also the BW enthusiasts are sometimes just stark raving fucking mad. Yes skill is important but there comes a point where compromise is insane. I don't understand - compromise between skill and what else exactly? Liimiting how many units you can select or buildings is just nuts for example. Yet I saw people push for that and they wondered why the new people hated the idea. And yet every design team that worked on a Blizzard RTS pre-Browder & co has made a conscious design decision to keep the limit on control groups. I'm pretty sure there's a lot of people that could vouch for their sanity. A compromise between being fun to play and just stupidly awkwardly difficult for the sake of being difficult. I'm a major proponent of the command queueing and unit selection advantages from Warcraft 3 (it still blows my mind how many ignorant BW goons were confused about these 'new abilities, amazing!!' which were 5 years old when SC2 shipped) I agree with a lot of the what the BW guys say, in hindsight as I've learnt a lot - but I don't agree with ridiculous shit. I maintain that multi-building selection for example is just bloody logcal, yet I saw nutcases pushing against that too. Hence my comment regarding compromise. This carrier discussion (back on topic) is most certainly though in the realm of fitting both parties and presented politely, clearly and easily in video form, anyone can understand how it requires skill and is useful. This is how the BW gurus should've presented stuff 2 years ago, instead of alienating newbies to the game with insults and outlandish claims. (fortunately, it's mostly stopped now)
Well how do you respond to posts like "BW is dead.", "OMG GRAPHICS IS TEH SUX!", and "THIS GAME IZ SO OLD, WHY KEEP ON PLAYING?", or "HE SHOULD SWITCH TO STARCRAFT 2!" when our game is fucking getting pulled out with ActiBlizzard buying out Kespa into forcing StarCraft 2 to be played.
Oh yeah we can totally just add some suggestions to the new game! But then we were met with "OMG JUST LIKE THE BALD GUY HAVE SAID, 'if you want to play bw, go play that instead.' "
Well guess what? OUR PROFESSIONAL SCENE WAS OBLITERATED BY YOU GUYS!
And for that you know, MBS was completely capable 13 years ago but they put the cap on because they WANT TO CHALLENGE THE PLAYERS, NOT SPOONFEED THE CONSUMERS WITH CASUAL WEAR BECAUSE OF THEIR GREED.
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When looking at the game you need to decide what matters more, the strategy aspect, or the mechanics aspect. Brood war was much more about the mechanics part, there were really hard and sometimes really annoying stuff that made it impossible to play at a high level without fast hands, and that is unlike SC2 which while having still not having a reachable skill ceiling is much more easy and "casual" which lets slower players compete with faster players.
I think SC2 is ways better then BW at that aspect; everyone can play at a decent level (diamond - master), even if you ae really slow, as long as you learn counters, a build order and general strategy you will get high (not able to compete with even semi-pro's, but still pretty high, unlike BW where unless you had an enormous amount of APM you were doomed to be forever a noob, even if you had great strategy and tactics.
The game should always allow for A-move and simple management, unless you can do it at the casual level it is not a part of the game that is fun for everyone. I don't mind cool tricks and micro that require high level, as long as simple play and basic micro is still possible. For example - as long as the carrier can still do OK without micro it is OK to put in some sort of trick.
I know you guys are always bitching about how SC2 is lame since it is casual and BW was so hard and therefore good, but what the developers of SC2 strive for is to make the game not only good for the pro's and the viewers, but for the casual player-base as well, and I really like that, I don't want to suffer when I play. I want to focus on the strategy and following my gameplan, not focus on putting my workers to mine and trying to fix the dumb AI and UI.
TL;DR Restrictions are bad, extra possible micro is good, therefore the carrier trick is good.
EDIT: lol Xiphos you sure love caps, that just requires the saying: "you mad bro?"
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On September 18 2012 12:19 moskonia wrote:
When looking at the game you need to decide what matters more, the strategy aspect, or the mechanics aspect. Brood war was much more about the mechanics part, there were really hard and sometimes really annoying stuff that made it impossible to play at a high level without fast hands, and that is unlike SC2 which while having still not having a reachable skill ceiling is much more easy and "casual" which lets slower players compete with faster players.
I think SC2 is ways better then BW at that aspect; everyone can play at a decent level (diamond - master), even if you ae really slow, as long as you learn counters, a build order and general strategy you will get high (not able to compete with even semi-pro's, but still pretty high, unlike BW where unless you had an enormous amount of APM you were doomed to be forever a noob, even if you had great strategy and tactics.
The game should always allow for A-move and simple management, unless you can do it at the casual level it is not a part of the game that is fun for everyone. I don't mind cool tricks and micro that require high level, as long as simple play and basic micro is still possible. For example - as long as the carrier can still do OK without micro it is OK to put in some sort of trick.
I know you guys are always bitching about how SC2 is lame since it is casual and BW was so hard and therefore good, but what the developers of SC2 strive for is to make the game not only good for the pro's and the viewers, but for the casual player-base as well, and I really like that, I don't want to suffer when I play. I want to focus on the strategy and following my gameplan, not focus on putting my workers to mine and trying to fix the dumb AI and UI.
TL;DR Restrictions are bad, extra possible micro is good, therefore the carrier trick is good.
EDIT: lol Xiphos you sure love caps, that just requires the saying: "you mad bro?"
3 words: REAL TIME STRATEGY
Real time part focuses on the mechanics aspect
Strategy part obviously is the strategy aspects
You need both to make the game what it should be so they should not focus on just one. They should focus on both.
Edit: I say the Carrier Micro doesn't really take away anything from the game anyway so why not? Sounds like a smashing idea.
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Guys, this is still off topic.
Where are the mods when you need them?
This shouldn´t be BW vs SC2 if I recall correctly.
There were good things about BW and there were bad things too. I am sure nobody misses the special challenge of getting dragoons down a small diagonal ramp.
Carrier Micro though is one of the good aspects that should be coming over. Incidentally, that´s also the FUCKING TOPIC of this thread.
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EPT
