We have seen the video. We are very focused on Heart of the Swarm units right now and we don't know what the Carrier will be doing in the beta with all of the new units available on the Stargate. Will it see more use? Less use? We aren't going to make any changes immediately but we will certainly discuss it.
Thank you for the post and thanks to the maker of the video.
We're seeing some community discussion on units that we shipped with Wings of Liberty. Examples include:
Carrier
Thor
Void Ray
Ghost
While we are very willing to change these units down the road we are not focused on them for the next few weeks. We are very interested in what kind of strategies we are introducing with the new beta units as well as what types of balance problems we are creating.
Obviously you can post on any subject you like and if you want to talk about older units feel free. We will definitely read your posts on older units. But we probably won't make balance or design changes of any significance to older units anytime soon. Once we stabilize the balance on the new beta units we will take a look to see what changes make sense to older units.
A bit dissapointting but hopefully it'll eventually happen.
I'm not nearly so hopeful. To me this is the thin wedge of a whole slew of changes to unit microbility that needs to come through. If they are balking at this, I'm afraid it's going to get blunted or deflected just like the whole Phoenix thing.
Haha, I found my old post from one of the Phoenix movement thread. I was firmly in the 'wait and see' camp back then.
On May 07 2010 15:38 MapleLeafSirup wrote: I am just glad that blizzard does not listen to 90% of this community. Come on, as much as I like teamliquid.net, there are so many stupid kids on this board who read some patch lines and just go insult blizzard. what are you guys thinking? first of all, I think blizzard puts a lot of time and effort into improving their game, and they are not only looking on tl.net and their wishes but also on many other communities on this planet. they just won't make changes on this game without reasons and having discussed them and just wait for what is gonna happen. of course there will be bad changes which will be rechanged again but you have to give them time. your opinion is not the general opinion. in broodwar you could say "hey omfg look there are almost no terran players in top20 TSL2 terran is obviously imba!!!" but then have a look at korea and not only at the pro scene... blizzard makes mistakes ... yes, but they do not want to make your beloved game but want to improve it AND want to make money out of it (yes this is actually true so the game has to be somewhat attractive for newbies as well). discuss what you think is bad but you don't have to go like "omfg bunch of faggots have no clue how game programming works"
Very much this. It's beta so changes should be sought. On the otherhand there is always this huge freak out based on patch notes as though it's the final patch for eternity. It's beta. Play the bloody game and see how it works. And then makes some noise for change. But you won't be an advocate for any form of change with the 'wtf is blizzard thinking' 5 min after patch notes because it's gut-reaction ignorance.
If people don't see the changes to the Phoenix as listening to the community, then your blinding yourself. Sure they didn't implement it BW style, but they needn't implement it at all. The fact that any form of moving shot is here shows they're listening. Maybe it'll get tweaked even further- although I doubt we'll get the Chinese triangle or anything that complicated.
...how wrong I was
Unfortunately, that one change on the Phoenix was all Blizzard ever did and never touched it again. Never even tried a proper version of moving shot on any other unit. I understand why they want to make conservative changes, but last beta those conservative changes pretty much resulted in no change on the microbility front.
We have seen the video. We are very focused on Heart of the Swarm units right now and we don't know what the Carrier will be doing in the beta with all of the new units available on the Stargate. Will it see more use? Less use? We aren't going to make any changes immediately but we will certainly discuss it.
Thank you for the post and thanks to the maker of the video.
We're seeing some community discussion on units that we shipped with Wings of Liberty. Examples include:
Carrier
Thor
Void Ray
Ghost
While we are very willing to change these units down the road we are not focused on them for the next few weeks. We are very interested in what kind of strategies we are introducing with the new beta units as well as what types of balance problems we are creating.
Obviously you can post on any subject you like and if you want to talk about older units feel free. We will definitely read your posts on older units. But we probably won't make balance or design changes of any significance to older units anytime soon. Once we stabilize the balance on the new beta units we will take a look to see what changes make sense to older units.
A bit dissapointting but hopefully it'll eventually happen.
I'm not nearly so hopeful. To me this is the thin wedge of a whole slew of changes to unit microbility that needs to come through. If they are balking at this, I'm afraid it's going to get blunted or deflected just like the whole Phoenix thing.
Haha, I found my old post from one of the Phoenix movement thread. I was firmly in the 'wait and see' camp back then.
On May 07 2010 15:38 MapleLeafSirup wrote: I am just glad that blizzard does not listen to 90% of this community. Come on, as much as I like teamliquid.net, there are so many stupid kids on this board who read some patch lines and just go insult blizzard. what are you guys thinking? first of all, I think blizzard puts a lot of time and effort into improving their game, and they are not only looking on tl.net and their wishes but also on many other communities on this planet. they just won't make changes on this game without reasons and having discussed them and just wait for what is gonna happen. of course there will be bad changes which will be rechanged again but you have to give them time. your opinion is not the general opinion. in broodwar you could say "hey omfg look there are almost no terran players in top20 TSL2 terran is obviously imba!!!" but then have a look at korea and not only at the pro scene... blizzard makes mistakes ... yes, but they do not want to make your beloved game but want to improve it AND want to make money out of it (yes this is actually true so the game has to be somewhat attractive for newbies as well). discuss what you think is bad but you don't have to go like "omfg bunch of faggots have no clue how game programming works"
Very much this. It's beta so changes should be sought. On the otherhand there is always this huge freak out based on patch notes as though it's the final patch for eternity. It's beta. Play the bloody game and see how it works. And then makes some noise for change. But you won't be an advocate for any form of change with the 'wtf is blizzard thinking' 5 min after patch notes because it's gut-reaction ignorance.
If people don't see the changes to the Phoenix as listening to the community, then your blinding yourself. Sure they didn't implement it BW style, but they needn't implement it at all. The fact that any form of moving shot is here shows they're listening. Maybe it'll get tweaked even further- although I doubt we'll get the Chinese triangle or anything that complicated.
...how wrong I was
Unfortunately, that one change on the Phoenix was all Blizzard ever did and never touched it again. Never even tried a proper version of moving shot on any other unit. I understand why they want to make conservative changes, but last beta those conservative changes pretty much resulted in no change on the microbility front.
The difference now is that we have a pros-only BNet forum, which the dev team (seems like anyways) are taking seriously. What we need is the pro players, like Nony, to push for this change.
We have seen the video. We are very focused on Heart of the Swarm units right now and we don't know what the Carrier will be doing in the beta with all of the new units available on the Stargate. Will it see more use? Less use? We aren't going to make any changes immediately but we will certainly discuss it.
Thank you for the post and thanks to the maker of the video.
We're seeing some community discussion on units that we shipped with Wings of Liberty. Examples include:
Carrier
Thor
Void Ray
Ghost
While we are very willing to change these units down the road we are not focused on them for the next few weeks. We are very interested in what kind of strategies we are introducing with the new beta units as well as what types of balance problems we are creating.
Obviously you can post on any subject you like and if you want to talk about older units feel free. We will definitely read your posts on older units. But we probably won't make balance or design changes of any significance to older units anytime soon. Once we stabilize the balance on the new beta units we will take a look to see what changes make sense to older units.
While I am sure that we have a couple months if not more of Beta, Blizzard will get to the carrier. I really like though how Dustin Browder made a list of units people are talking about and forgets the Colossus, Only 3-4 threads on changing/removing it on TL alone.
I never knew how to micro carriers. There was way too much in BW that was esoteric. Important stuff that made a big difference, but it was next to impossible to know everything you needed to. Def not something a casual player would ever know. Unless blizzard wants to make tutorial videos like how to use patrol micro versus zealots and lings (BW), then I'm really against adding quirky things so a select few can get a big adv off by simply knowing how to manipulate units in weird ways.
On September 18 2012 10:04 playa wrote: I never knew how to micro carriers. There was way too much in BW that was esoteric. Important stuff that made a big difference, but it was next to impossible to know everything you needed to. Def not something a casual player would ever know. Unless blizzard wants to make tutorial videos like how to use patrol micro versus zealots and lings (BW), then I'm really against adding quirky things so a select few can get a big adv off by simply knowing how to manipulate units in weird ways.
Yeah, screw the game having some depth to it. Incidentally, if you're a casual player, then it doesn't matter anyways. You'll be playing against other casual players who'll presumably have around the same level of knowledge as you, so it won't make a difference.
We have seen the video. We are very focused on Heart of the Swarm units right now and we don't know what the Carrier will be doing in the beta with all of the new units available on the Stargate. Will it see more use? Less use? We aren't going to make any changes immediately but we will certainly discuss it.
Thank you for the post and thanks to the maker of the video.
We're seeing some community discussion on units that we shipped with Wings of Liberty. Examples include:
Carrier
Thor
Void Ray
Ghost
While we are very willing to change these units down the road we are not focused on them for the next few weeks. We are very interested in what kind of strategies we are introducing with the new beta units as well as what types of balance problems we are creating.
Obviously you can post on any subject you like and if you want to talk about older units feel free. We will definitely read your posts on older units. But we probably won't make balance or design changes of any significance to older units anytime soon. Once we stabilize the balance on the new beta units we will take a look to see what changes make sense to older units.
A bit dissapointting but hopefully it'll eventually happen.
I'm not nearly so hopeful. To me this is the thin wedge of a whole slew of changes to unit microbility that needs to come through. If they are balking at this, I'm afraid it's going to get blunted or deflected just like the whole Phoenix thing.
Haha, I found my old post from one of the Phoenix movement thread. I was firmly in the 'wait and see' camp back then.
On May 07 2010 15:38 MapleLeafSirup wrote: I am just glad that blizzard does not listen to 90% of this community. Come on, as much as I like teamliquid.net, there are so many stupid kids on this board who read some patch lines and just go insult blizzard. what are you guys thinking? first of all, I think blizzard puts a lot of time and effort into improving their game, and they are not only looking on tl.net and their wishes but also on many other communities on this planet. they just won't make changes on this game without reasons and having discussed them and just wait for what is gonna happen. of course there will be bad changes which will be rechanged again but you have to give them time. your opinion is not the general opinion. in broodwar you could say "hey omfg look there are almost no terran players in top20 TSL2 terran is obviously imba!!!" but then have a look at korea and not only at the pro scene... blizzard makes mistakes ... yes, but they do not want to make your beloved game but want to improve it AND want to make money out of it (yes this is actually true so the game has to be somewhat attractive for newbies as well). discuss what you think is bad but you don't have to go like "omfg bunch of faggots have no clue how game programming works"
Very much this. It's beta so changes should be sought. On the otherhand there is always this huge freak out based on patch notes as though it's the final patch for eternity. It's beta. Play the bloody game and see how it works. And then makes some noise for change. But you won't be an advocate for any form of change with the 'wtf is blizzard thinking' 5 min after patch notes because it's gut-reaction ignorance.
If people don't see the changes to the Phoenix as listening to the community, then your blinding yourself. Sure they didn't implement it BW style, but they needn't implement it at all. The fact that any form of moving shot is here shows they're listening. Maybe it'll get tweaked even further- although I doubt we'll get the Chinese triangle or anything that complicated.
...how wrong I was
Unfortunately, that one change on the Phoenix was all Blizzard ever did and never touched it again. Never even tried a proper version of moving shot on any other unit. I understand why they want to make conservative changes, but last beta those conservative changes pretty much resulted in no change on the microbility front.
I am sorry, I wasn't in the forum at that time but what is wrong with phoenix movement? currently the phoenix is one of the best SC2 units, both for the player and the viewer, so you can not say that they did a bad job with that one.
On September 18 2012 10:04 playa wrote: I never knew how to micro carriers. There was way too much in BW that was esoteric. Important stuff that made a big difference, but it was next to impossible to know everything you needed to. Def not something a casual player would ever know. Unless blizzard wants to make tutorial videos like how to use patrol micro versus zealots and lings (BW), then I'm really against adding quirky things so a select few can get a big adv off by simply knowing how to manipulate units in weird ways.
Yeah, screw the game having some depth to it. Incidentally, if you're a casual player, then it doesn't matter anyways. You'll be playing against other casual players who'll presumably have around the same level of knowledge as you, so it won't make a difference.
If you want to keep adding depth, you'll end up like BW. I had already qualified for WCG US before I even learned about patrol micro for vultures, which is freaking huge to know. Only the most hardcore people that have been around for ever will even have a chance to know all this random stuff. If you want to add "depth," make sure it's accessible. You shouldn't have to scour every thread on tl.net to learn "magic tricks."
On September 18 2012 10:04 playa wrote: I never knew how to micro carriers. There was way too much in BW that was esoteric. Important stuff that made a big difference, but it was next to impossible to know everything you needed to. Def not something a casual player would ever know. Unless blizzard wants to make tutorial videos like how to use patrol micro versus zealots and lings (BW), then I'm really against adding quirky things so a select few can get a big adv off by simply knowing how to manipulate units in weird ways.
But why would limit the pro's when it doesn't effect lower level players? Here's the thing, with auto-match making, if Protoss start getting wins using Carrier micro... they get promoted and leave behind people that can't be bothered to learn it or deal with it. But it's not even a terribly hard thing to figure out that only the select few can know the secret. The tricky part is doing carrier micro while doing everything else like macro. Guarantee Masters and above would be trying it. Actually, any player that sees pro's doing it in a match will probably at least try it once. It's something that's inspires imitation even if a lesser player can only try it on occaison.
We have seen the video. We are very focused on Heart of the Swarm units right now and we don't know what the Carrier will be doing in the beta with all of the new units available on the Stargate. Will it see more use? Less use? We aren't going to make any changes immediately but we will certainly discuss it.
Thank you for the post and thanks to the maker of the video.
We're seeing some community discussion on units that we shipped with Wings of Liberty. Examples include:
Carrier
Thor
Void Ray
Ghost
While we are very willing to change these units down the road we are not focused on them for the next few weeks. We are very interested in what kind of strategies we are introducing with the new beta units as well as what types of balance problems we are creating.
Obviously you can post on any subject you like and if you want to talk about older units feel free. We will definitely read your posts on older units. But we probably won't make balance or design changes of any significance to older units anytime soon. Once we stabilize the balance on the new beta units we will take a look to see what changes make sense to older units.
A bit dissapointting but hopefully it'll eventually happen.
I'm not nearly so hopeful. To me this is the thin wedge of a whole slew of changes to unit microbility that needs to come through. If they are balking at this, I'm afraid it's going to get blunted or deflected just like the whole Phoenix thing.
Haha, I found my old post from one of the Phoenix movement thread. I was firmly in the 'wait and see' camp back then.
On May 07 2010 17:36 Falling wrote:
On May 07 2010 15:38 MapleLeafSirup wrote: I am just glad that blizzard does not listen to 90% of this community. Come on, as much as I like teamliquid.net, there are so many stupid kids on this board who read some patch lines and just go insult blizzard. what are you guys thinking? first of all, I think blizzard puts a lot of time and effort into improving their game, and they are not only looking on tl.net and their wishes but also on many other communities on this planet. they just won't make changes on this game without reasons and having discussed them and just wait for what is gonna happen. of course there will be bad changes which will be rechanged again but you have to give them time. your opinion is not the general opinion. in broodwar you could say "hey omfg look there are almost no terran players in top20 TSL2 terran is obviously imba!!!" but then have a look at korea and not only at the pro scene... blizzard makes mistakes ... yes, but they do not want to make your beloved game but want to improve it AND want to make money out of it (yes this is actually true so the game has to be somewhat attractive for newbies as well). discuss what you think is bad but you don't have to go like "omfg bunch of faggots have no clue how game programming works"
Very much this. It's beta so changes should be sought. On the otherhand there is always this huge freak out based on patch notes as though it's the final patch for eternity. It's beta. Play the bloody game and see how it works. And then makes some noise for change. But you won't be an advocate for any form of change with the 'wtf is blizzard thinking' 5 min after patch notes because it's gut-reaction ignorance.
If people don't see the changes to the Phoenix as listening to the community, then your blinding yourself. Sure they didn't implement it BW style, but they needn't implement it at all. The fact that any form of moving shot is here shows they're listening. Maybe it'll get tweaked even further- although I doubt we'll get the Chinese triangle or anything that complicated.
...how wrong I was
Unfortunately, that one change on the Phoenix was all Blizzard ever did and never touched it again. Never even tried a proper version of moving shot on any other unit. I understand why they want to make conservative changes, but last beta those conservative changes pretty much resulted in no change on the microbility front.
I am sorry, I wasn't in the forum at that time but what is wrong with phoenix movement? currently the phoenix is one of the best SC2 units, both for the player and the viewer, so you can not say that they did a bad job with that one.
Lalush is better at explaining it than I. Basically the Phoenix still glides in the same direction as it was pointing, the only difference now is that it rotates on it's axis to fire backwards while gliding in the same direction. True moving shot was about firing off a shot, while avoiding decelleration. However, rather than gliding, in the same direction, the unit would actually switch directions after firing burst shot. This would allow rapid, hit and run tactics that were very precise and kept up a constant speed.
This video explains how moving shot works on the vulture, but the same was true for the mutalisk (using hold position) and a variety of other units + Show Spoiler +
In essence, the Phoenix was only a partial fix that missed the point what made moving position awesome. You can tell Blizzard missed it because when asked about the Phoenix change, the foreigner pro's just laughed.
On September 18 2012 10:04 playa wrote: I never knew how to micro carriers. There was way too much in BW that was esoteric. Important stuff that made a big difference, but it was next to impossible to know everything you needed to. Def not something a casual player would ever know. Unless blizzard wants to make tutorial videos like how to use patrol micro versus zealots and lings (BW), then I'm really against adding quirky things so a select few can get a big adv off by simply knowing how to manipulate units in weird ways.
But why would limit the pro's when it doesn't effect lower level players? Here's the thing, with auto-match making, if Protoss start getting wins using Carrier micro... they get promoted and leave behind people that can't be bothered to learn it or deal with it. But it's not even a terribly hard thing to figure out that only the select few can know the secret. The tricky part is doing carrier micro while doing everything else like macro. Guarantee Masters and above would be trying it. Actually, any player that sees pro's doing it in a match will probably at least try it once. It's something that's inspires imitation even if a lesser player can only try it on occaison.
Everyone is considered a pro in SC 2, despite being no better than they were in BW or putting in any more effort. There's always going to be a lot of people that simply have no clue, no matter what level of a player they are. I'm just saying, if you're not prepared to make tricks accessible to everyone, then it shouldn't happen.
Depth... If you can make better decisions than your opponent, then I don't have a problem with you winning. I'm not even saying I'm against adding things like this... so not sure how reasonable you are. That said, why not petition for the macro mechanics to go back to how they were in BW. It makes good macro all the more impressive... What's the difference.
On September 18 2012 10:04 playa wrote: I never knew how to micro carriers. There was way too much in BW that was esoteric. Important stuff that made a big difference, but it was next to impossible to know everything you needed to. Def not something a casual player would ever know. Unless blizzard wants to make tutorial videos like how to use patrol micro versus zealots and lings (BW), then I'm really against adding quirky things so a select few can get a big adv off by simply knowing how to manipulate units in weird ways.
Yeah, screw the game having some depth to it. Incidentally, if you're a casual player, then it doesn't matter anyways. You'll be playing against other casual players who'll presumably have around the same level of knowledge as you, so it won't make a difference.
If you want to keep adding depth, you'll end up like BW. I had already qualified for WCG US before I even learned about patrol micro for vultures, which is freaking huge to know. Only the most hardcore people that have been around for ever will even have a chance to know all this random stuff. If you want to add "depth," make sure it's accessible. You shouldn't have to scour every thread on tl.net to learn "magic tricks."
You do realize we're living in age where information is distributed really, really fast. These sort of things would not be these carefully guarded secrets. I joined BW very late and I'm aware of most of the BW micro tricks. I'm rubbish at pretty much all of them, but I'm well aware of them.
On September 18 2012 10:29 playa wrote: Everyone is considered a pro in SC 2, despite being no better than they were in BW or putting in any more effort. There's always going to be a lot of people that simply have no clue, no matter what level of a player they are. I'm just saying, if you're not prepared to make tricks accessible to everyone, then it shouldn't happen.
Depth... If you can make better decisions than your opponent, then I don't have a problem with you winning. I'm not even saying I'm against adding things like this... so not sure how reasonable you are. That said, why not petition for the macro mechanics to go back to how they were in BW. It makes good macro all the more impressive... What's the difference.
But it is accessible to everyone. It's just a matter of learning. Do you take out backwards skating out of hockey because some people don't want to learn? It's there if you want to, but if you just want to play casual, pond hockey you can be perfectly happy skating forwards and never backwards. These will not be deep, dark secrets. They'll be widely available to everyone... just like Marine splitting. But not everyone is MKP. Do we get rid of the marine split because not everyone can hack it? It's always there waiting, something to aspire to.
On September 17 2012 05:21 Liquid`NonY wrote: Continuous deployment of interceptors while moving I think is really really cool but is the easiest thing to classify as a buggy behavior. I hope we can get it though because it takes so much attention and skill to use effectively. It is very strong but becomes incredibly difficult to do as soon as your opponent forces action in two places at once. So the players are countering each other by doing increasingly difficult strategies and that is AWESOME. The protoss player got the carriers knowing they'll be sufficiently effective ONLY IF he can pull off this micro. The enemy's response is not to bang his head against this really strong micro but rather to split the protoss's attention, punishing him for having tunnel vision on his carriers. Someone is gonna make a mistake and miscalculate and that's how the game should be decided.
If the continuous deployment of interceptors ISN'T in the game, then interceptor healing is pretty much just a straight buff. There isn't really any tension if both things aren't in the game.
See, concepts like 'tension' are beyond a brain like Dustin Browder's, I think stuff of that level doesn't even cross his mind.
I bet if he reads this, he'll start wondering and ask himself... "Which part of SC2 covers this tension Tyler talks about, lasers or rocks? What should we do to get more tension.... Hm, let's buff rocks."
I think that's a little unfair. If this thread is any indication, there have been sudden revelatory 'aha' moments for several people. And this is after a couple years of people trying to explain how carrier micro works and getting dismissed as 'elitists.' What it took was a very concise compare/contrast video demonstration by Tyler. If that can happen with people on this thread, there's no reason why it can't happen with Blizzard.
Well it's far easier to listen to and understand the point of view of someone when that person is a professional player, winner of a TSL and well-respected community figure, as opposed to some random faceless poster on the internet with a different opinion than yours.
But because they are professional players, I wager they spend more time practicing and trying to understand the game better than they do posting here or making informational videos; this is unfortunate but necessary for careers after all. I do think however that we would be making progress a lot faster if players such as Tyler, MorroW and LaLuSh helped the newer members of the community (and to a lesser extent Blizzard) understand what exactly could be done to improve the game and why that would be the case; that information would then help the community pressure Blizzard more into at least trying said features. (note I only named those players because they stick out to me the most in terms of sharing their opinions on the game when they do post) But, as I said, it's not really their job to do so.
:/
It should not be necessary to need a good player like Tyler to make you even listen and try to sympathize with a persons opinions about what made Broodwar so great, especially when literally a whole community says the same thing. The problem is, it's just too many people who won't look at SC2 with critical eyes and address the bad things about it. Instead, many in this community scream 'elitist' or 'nostalgia' as soon as someone from Broodwar days criticizes something about SC2 in a sensible way. If I was new to the SC2-scene and Teamliquid, and had never played Broodwar before, I would be curious and check things out why all these people all the time talk about Broodwar and why it's such an amazing game. That's what happened when I discovered the Super smash scene, and discovered Melee through Brawl.
My personal beliefs when it comes to make something as good as possible, looking at your work with a critical perspective is very very important, instead of just pushing problems under the bed. I remember once when I coded a computer program in about two weeks, and sent it over to my friend to review the code for me. As a person who cares much about details, as I do, he found quite many things that he thought was bad and should be changed; not everything was a huge issue, but some things were. First I was surprised about all the things he found out, and afterwards I got a bit upset about it, because at first I thought I did the most amazing work ever(^_^). And it was not like I was upset just because the fact that he disagreed about some decisions in my code, then I would argue otherwise, but it was that I thought he was right, and I agreed on his opinions; with other words, ego drop. Soon after I realized how important his critical review was for me to become a better programmer, and now I'm very thankful for him to be honest about what he really thinks about my work. It may be obvious that being critical about the things you do or care about will improve that, but I still think it's still a huge underestimation by most people(including myself). It's simply easy not to look at the problems, but you have to if you want to solve them.
I also think it's kind of sad that many SC2 players and casters from the Broodwar days won't admit problems in SC2 because it hurts their reputation somewhat in the SC2 community. But if you truly care about the game, you really should be honest and tell what you think about it, to make it as good game as possible, and make it live up to the success of Broodwar, instead of caring about everything that goes around the game(money, big community and eSports). I think that's kind of shallow, and I think the eSport scene becomes better and more real when the game is really good. And don't get me wrong, I don't think SC2 is near bad, I just think that it's not living up to Broodwar at all, and there is still opportunity to make it better than it is now.
I never knew how to micro carriers. There was way too much in BW that was esoteric. Important stuff that made a big difference, but it was next to impossible to know everything you needed to. Def not something a casual player would ever know. Unless blizzard wants to make tutorial videos like how to use patrol micro versus zealots and lings (BW), then I'm really against adding quirky things so a select few can get a big adv off by simply knowing how to manipulate units in weird ways.
Yeah, screw the game having some depth to it. Incidentally, if you're a casual player, then it doesn't matter anyways. You'll be playing against other casual players who'll presumably have around the same level of knowledge as you, so it won't make a difference.
If you want to keep adding depth, you'll end up like BW. I had already qualified for WCG US before I even learned about patrol micro for vultures, which is freaking huge to know. Only the most hardcore people that have been around for ever will even have a chance to know all this random stuff. If you want to add "depth," make sure it's accessible. You shouldn't have to scour every thread on tl.net to learn "magic tricks."
You do realize we're living in age where information is distributed really, really fast. These sort of things would not be these carefully guarded secrets. I joined BW very late and I'm aware of most of the BW micro tricks. I'm rubbish at pretty much all of them, but I'm well aware of them.
On September 18 2012 10:29 playa wrote: Everyone is considered a pro in SC 2, despite being no better than they were in BW or putting in any more effort. There's always going to be a lot of people that simply have no clue, no matter what level of a player they are. I'm just saying, if you're not prepared to make tricks accessible to everyone, then it shouldn't happen.
Depth... If you can make better decisions than your opponent, then I don't have a problem with you winning. I'm not even saying I'm against adding things like this... so not sure how reasonable you are. That said, why not petition for the macro mechanics to go back to how they were in BW. It makes good macro all the more impressive... What's the difference.
But it is accessible to everyone. It's just a matter of learning. Do you take out backwards skating out of hockey because some people don't want to learn? It's there if you want to, but if you just want to play casual, pond hockey you can be perfectly happy skating forwards and never backwards. These will not be deep, dark secrets. They'll be widely available to everyone... just like Marine splitting. But not everyone is MKP. Do we get rid of the marine split because not everyone can hack it? It's always there waiting, something to aspire to.
The point is, why should MarineKingPrime be able to be better than me at Starcraft? What right does he have? We both paid the same amount for the game, we should both have an equal chance of winning. That's the only way it's fair.
I hate when there's ALWAYS room for me to improve at something... so annoying... trading effort for wins isn't fair because then the guy who tries the hardest always wins and that's imbalanced. Games should be more about who follows the rules the best, and everyone should know the rules, that way everyone can win and it's fair. It also improves the spectator experience because then anyone will know what happens next all the time.
On September 18 2012 10:04 playa wrote: I never knew how to micro carriers. There was way too much in BW that was esoteric. Important stuff that made a big difference, but it was next to impossible to know everything you needed to. Def not something a casual player would ever know. Unless blizzard wants to make tutorial videos like how to use patrol micro versus zealots and lings (BW), then I'm really against adding quirky things so a select few can get a big adv off by simply knowing how to manipulate units in weird ways.
Yeah, screw the game having some depth to it. Incidentally, if you're a casual player, then it doesn't matter anyways. You'll be playing against other casual players who'll presumably have around the same level of knowledge as you, so it won't make a difference.
If you want to keep adding depth, you'll end up like BW. I had already qualified for WCG US before I even learned about patrol micro for vultures, which is freaking huge to know. Only the most hardcore people that have been around for ever will even have a chance to know all this random stuff. If you want to add "depth," make sure it's accessible. You shouldn't have to scour every thread on tl.net to learn "magic tricks."
You do realize we're living in age where information is distributed really, really fast. These sort of things would not be these carefully guarded secrets. I joined BW very late and I'm aware of most of the BW micro tricks. I'm rubbish at pretty much all of them, but I'm well aware of them.
On September 18 2012 10:29 playa wrote: Everyone is considered a pro in SC 2, despite being no better than they were in BW or putting in any more effort. There's always going to be a lot of people that simply have no clue, no matter what level of a player they are. I'm just saying, if you're not prepared to make tricks accessible to everyone, then it shouldn't happen.
Depth... If you can make better decisions than your opponent, then I don't have a problem with you winning. I'm not even saying I'm against adding things like this... so not sure how reasonable you are. That said, why not petition for the macro mechanics to go back to how they were in BW. It makes good macro all the more impressive... What's the difference.
But it is accessible to everyone. It's just a matter of learning. Do you take out backwards skating out of hockey because some people don't want to learn? It's there if you want to, but if you just want to play casual, pond hockey you can be perfectly happy skating forwards and never backwards. These will not be deep, dark secrets. They'll be widely available to everyone... just like Marine splitting. But not everyone is MKP. Do we get rid of the marine split because not everyone can hack it? It's always there waiting, something to aspire to.
Give me a break. Yeah, I would have been playing for years without using patrol micro on vultures if I knew that made them more responsive. I'm going to start playing with only 1 hand. I just like doing that kinda shit. How about make it more accessible. You're just being a clown.
On September 18 2012 10:04 playa wrote: I never knew how to micro carriers. There was way too much in BW that was esoteric. Important stuff that made a big difference, but it was next to impossible to know everything you needed to. Def not something a casual player would ever know. Unless blizzard wants to make tutorial videos like how to use patrol micro versus zealots and lings (BW), then I'm really against adding quirky things so a select few can get a big adv off by simply knowing how to manipulate units in weird ways.
Yeah, screw the game having some depth to it. Incidentally, if you're a casual player, then it doesn't matter anyways. You'll be playing against other casual players who'll presumably have around the same level of knowledge as you, so it won't make a difference.
If you want to keep adding depth, you'll end up like BW. I had already qualified for WCG US before I even learned about patrol micro for vultures, which is freaking huge to know. Only the most hardcore people that have been around for ever will even have a chance to know all this random stuff. If you want to add "depth," make sure it's accessible. You shouldn't have to scour every thread on tl.net to learn "magic tricks."
You do realize we're living in age where information is distributed really, really fast. These sort of things would not be these carefully guarded secrets. I joined BW very late and I'm aware of most of the BW micro tricks. I'm rubbish at pretty much all of them, but I'm well aware of them.
On September 18 2012 10:29 playa wrote: Everyone is considered a pro in SC 2, despite being no better than they were in BW or putting in any more effort. There's always going to be a lot of people that simply have no clue, no matter what level of a player they are. I'm just saying, if you're not prepared to make tricks accessible to everyone, then it shouldn't happen.
Depth... If you can make better decisions than your opponent, then I don't have a problem with you winning. I'm not even saying I'm against adding things like this... so not sure how reasonable you are. That said, why not petition for the macro mechanics to go back to how they were in BW. It makes good macro all the more impressive... What's the difference.
But it is accessible to everyone. It's just a matter of learning. Do you take out backwards skating out of hockey because some people don't want to learn? It's there if you want to, but if you just want to play casual, pond hockey you can be perfectly happy skating forwards and never backwards. These will not be deep, dark secrets. They'll be widely available to everyone... just like Marine splitting. But not everyone is MKP. Do we get rid of the marine split because not everyone can hack it? It's always there waiting, something to aspire to.
Failing gets it.
I joined BW in the year of 2009, actually a shitty year for me because I was cheering movie for that OSL with Flash fluking out in the most imbalanced matchup in BW. But that's beside the point (lol). Anyways, by the first months, I knew how to Mutalisks stack, stop lurkers, Vulture micro, split marines and all that jazz just by simple UMS maps that were made FUCKING 5 YEARS AGO.
Those tricks will be the determining factor between pros because there are some pros who can do them really well and then there are some pros who does it like this:
Go to 10 minutes mark.
This will just give them the edge.
Ever wondered why Jaedong practiced fucking 14+ hours a day @ Oz? Well he is spending 4 extra hours JUST to practice a certain aspect of the game to get ahead of the competitions while others are having their sweet dreams.
Same can be applied to StarCraft 2, you want to add layers to EVERY single units so their potential can be limitless.
I never knew how to micro carriers. There was way too much in BW that was esoteric. Important stuff that made a big difference, but it was next to impossible to know everything you needed to. Def not something a casual player would ever know. Unless blizzard wants to make tutorial videos like how to use patrol micro versus zealots and lings (BW), then I'm really against adding quirky things so a select few can get a big adv off by simply knowing how to manipulate units in weird ways.
Yeah, screw the game having some depth to it. Incidentally, if you're a casual player, then it doesn't matter anyways. You'll be playing against other casual players who'll presumably have around the same level of knowledge as you, so it won't make a difference.
If you want to keep adding depth, you'll end up like BW. I had already qualified for WCG US before I even learned about patrol micro for vultures, which is freaking huge to know. Only the most hardcore people that have been around for ever will even have a chance to know all this random stuff. If you want to add "depth," make sure it's accessible. You shouldn't have to scour every thread on tl.net to learn "magic tricks."
You do realize we're living in age where information is distributed really, really fast. These sort of things would not be these carefully guarded secrets. I joined BW very late and I'm aware of most of the BW micro tricks. I'm rubbish at pretty much all of them, but I'm well aware of them.
On September 18 2012 10:29 playa wrote: Everyone is considered a pro in SC 2, despite being no better than they were in BW or putting in any more effort. There's always going to be a lot of people that simply have no clue, no matter what level of a player they are. I'm just saying, if you're not prepared to make tricks accessible to everyone, then it shouldn't happen.
Depth... If you can make better decisions than your opponent, then I don't have a problem with you winning. I'm not even saying I'm against adding things like this... so not sure how reasonable you are. That said, why not petition for the macro mechanics to go back to how they were in BW. It makes good macro all the more impressive... What's the difference.
But it is accessible to everyone. It's just a matter of learning. Do you take out backwards skating out of hockey because some people don't want to learn? It's there if you want to, but if you just want to play casual, pond hockey you can be perfectly happy skating forwards and never backwards. These will not be deep, dark secrets. They'll be widely available to everyone... just like Marine splitting. But not everyone is MKP. Do we get rid of the marine split because not everyone can hack it? It's always there waiting, something to aspire to.
The point is, why should MarineKingPrime be able to be better than me at Starcraft? What right does he have? We both paid the same amount for the game, we should both have an equal chance of winning. That's the only way it's fair.
I hate when there's ALWAYS room for me to improve at something... so annoying... trading effort for wins isn't fair because then the guy who tries the hardest always wins and that's imbalanced. Games should be more about who follows the rules the best, and everyone should know the rules, that way everyone can win and it's fair. It also improves the spectator experience because then anyone will know what happens next all the time.
On September 18 2012 10:04 playa wrote: I never knew how to micro carriers. There was way too much in BW that was esoteric. Important stuff that made a big difference, but it was next to impossible to know everything you needed to. Def not something a casual player would ever know. Unless blizzard wants to make tutorial videos like how to use patrol micro versus zealots and lings (BW), then I'm really against adding quirky things so a select few can get a big adv off by simply knowing how to manipulate units in weird ways.
Yeah, screw the game having some depth to it. Incidentally, if you're a casual player, then it doesn't matter anyways. You'll be playing against other casual players who'll presumably have around the same level of knowledge as you, so it won't make a difference.
If you want to keep adding depth, you'll end up like BW. I had already qualified for WCG US before I even learned about patrol micro for vultures, which is freaking huge to know. Only the most hardcore people that have been around for ever will even have a chance to know all this random stuff. If you want to add "depth," make sure it's accessible. You shouldn't have to scour every thread on tl.net to learn "magic tricks."
You do realize we're living in age where information is distributed really, really fast. These sort of things would not be these carefully guarded secrets. I joined BW very late and I'm aware of most of the BW micro tricks. I'm rubbish at pretty much all of them, but I'm well aware of them.
On September 18 2012 10:29 playa wrote: Everyone is considered a pro in SC 2, despite being no better than they were in BW or putting in any more effort. There's always going to be a lot of people that simply have no clue, no matter what level of a player they are. I'm just saying, if you're not prepared to make tricks accessible to everyone, then it shouldn't happen.
Depth... If you can make better decisions than your opponent, then I don't have a problem with you winning. I'm not even saying I'm against adding things like this... so not sure how reasonable you are. That said, why not petition for the macro mechanics to go back to how they were in BW. It makes good macro all the more impressive... What's the difference.
But it is accessible to everyone. It's just a matter of learning. Do you take out backwards skating out of hockey because some people don't want to learn? It's there if you want to, but if you just want to play casual, pond hockey you can be perfectly happy skating forwards and never backwards. These will not be deep, dark secrets. They'll be widely available to everyone... just like Marine splitting. But not everyone is MKP. Do we get rid of the marine split because not everyone can hack it? It's always there waiting, something to aspire to.
Give me a break. Yeah, I would have been playing for years without using patrol micro on vultures if I knew that made them more responsive. I'm going to start playing with only 1 hand. I just like doing that kinda shit. How about make it more accessible. You're just being a clown.
I never knew how to micro carriers. There was way too much in BW that was esoteric. Important stuff that made a big difference, but it was next to impossible to know everything you needed to. Def not something a casual player would ever know. Unless blizzard wants to make tutorial videos like how to use patrol micro versus zealots and lings (BW), then I'm really against adding quirky things so a select few can get a big adv off by simply knowing how to manipulate units in weird ways.
Yeah, screw the game having some depth to it. Incidentally, if you're a casual player, then it doesn't matter anyways. You'll be playing against other casual players who'll presumably have around the same level of knowledge as you, so it won't make a difference.
If you want to keep adding depth, you'll end up like BW. I had already qualified for WCG US before I even learned about patrol micro for vultures, which is freaking huge to know. Only the most hardcore people that have been around for ever will even have a chance to know all this random stuff. If you want to add "depth," make sure it's accessible. You shouldn't have to scour every thread on tl.net to learn "magic tricks."
You do realize we're living in age where information is distributed really, really fast. These sort of things would not be these carefully guarded secrets. I joined BW very late and I'm aware of most of the BW micro tricks. I'm rubbish at pretty much all of them, but I'm well aware of them.
On September 18 2012 10:29 playa wrote: Everyone is considered a pro in SC 2, despite being no better than they were in BW or putting in any more effort. There's always going to be a lot of people that simply have no clue, no matter what level of a player they are. I'm just saying, if you're not prepared to make tricks accessible to everyone, then it shouldn't happen.
Depth... If you can make better decisions than your opponent, then I don't have a problem with you winning. I'm not even saying I'm against adding things like this... so not sure how reasonable you are. That said, why not petition for the macro mechanics to go back to how they were in BW. It makes good macro all the more impressive... What's the difference.
But it is accessible to everyone. It's just a matter of learning. Do you take out backwards skating out of hockey because some people don't want to learn? It's there if you want to, but if you just want to play casual, pond hockey you can be perfectly happy skating forwards and never backwards. These will not be deep, dark secrets. They'll be widely available to everyone... just like Marine splitting. But not everyone is MKP. Do we get rid of the marine split because not everyone can hack it? It's always there waiting, something to aspire to.
The point is, why should MarineKingPrime be able to be better than me at Starcraft? What right does he have? We both paid the same amount for the game, we should both have an equal chance of winning. That's the only way it's fair.
I hate when there's ALWAYS room for me to improve at something... so annoying... trading effort for wins isn't fair because then the guy who tries the hardest always wins and that's imbalanced. Games should be more about who follows the rules the best, and everyone should know the rules, that way everyone can win and it's fair. It also improves the spectator experience because then anyone will know what happens next all the time.
... -.-
The guy below me knows what I'm talking about.
My QQ-o-Meter is high in these.
Seriously you want to be pro on the get go?
Well quit being so lazy man, this is serious business. Professional StarCraft gamers breathe with the game, the keyboard, mice and monitors are the equivalence of their body appendages. Their mind and the gameplay are amalgamated into one piece together.
Now the real question what gives YOU the right to be get on their level?
Nothing man, stop whining and MAN up. You won't get anywhere in life with that loser attitude.
The fact so few in the SC 2 community really question things because they have to tout it as the new esport is a bit saddening. The game has many problems and things like Tyler's suggestion could go a small way in helping address them. People need to stop towing the company line so to speak, and just be honest about why there's a disconnect between SC 2 and BW. I don't care that SC 2 is new or different, I care that it's boring and less nuanced.
EPT
