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Canada11349 Posts
On September 18 2012 05:07 niteReloaded wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 05:21 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Continuous deployment of interceptors while moving I think is really really cool but is the easiest thing to classify as a buggy behavior. I hope we can get it though because it takes so much attention and skill to use effectively. It is very strong but becomes incredibly difficult to do as soon as your opponent forces action in two places at once. So the players are countering each other by doing increasingly difficult strategies and that is AWESOME. The protoss player got the carriers knowing they'll be sufficiently effective ONLY IF he can pull off this micro. The enemy's response is not to bang his head against this really strong micro but rather to split the protoss's attention, punishing him for having tunnel vision on his carriers. Someone is gonna make a mistake and miscalculate and that's how the game should be decided.
If the continuous deployment of interceptors ISN'T in the game, then interceptor healing is pretty much just a straight buff. There isn't really any tension if both things aren't in the game. See, concepts like 'tension' are beyond a brain like Dustin Browder's, I think stuff of that level doesn't even cross his mind. I bet if he reads this, he'll start wondering and ask himself... "Which part of SC2 covers this tension Tyler talks about, lasers or rocks? What should we do to get more tension.... Hm, let's buff rocks."
I think that's a little unfair. If this thread is any indication, there have been sudden revelatory 'aha' moments for several people. And this is after a couple years of people trying to explain how carrier micro works and getting dismissed as 'elitists.' What it took was a very concise compare/contrast video demonstration by Tyler. If that can happen with people on this thread, there's no reason why it can't happen with Blizzard.
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this was surprisingly insightful, as someone who didn't play toss in bw (and played at the lowest of levels) I only knew that it was different. This video does a great job highlighting the ways the carrier was great and could be great again.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On September 18 2012 05:55 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 05:07 niteReloaded wrote:On September 17 2012 05:21 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Continuous deployment of interceptors while moving I think is really really cool but is the easiest thing to classify as a buggy behavior. I hope we can get it though because it takes so much attention and skill to use effectively. It is very strong but becomes incredibly difficult to do as soon as your opponent forces action in two places at once. So the players are countering each other by doing increasingly difficult strategies and that is AWESOME. The protoss player got the carriers knowing they'll be sufficiently effective ONLY IF he can pull off this micro. The enemy's response is not to bang his head against this really strong micro but rather to split the protoss's attention, punishing him for having tunnel vision on his carriers. Someone is gonna make a mistake and miscalculate and that's how the game should be decided.
If the continuous deployment of interceptors ISN'T in the game, then interceptor healing is pretty much just a straight buff. There isn't really any tension if both things aren't in the game. See, concepts like 'tension' are beyond a brain like Dustin Browder's, I think stuff of that level doesn't even cross his mind. I bet if he reads this, he'll start wondering and ask himself... "Which part of SC2 covers this tension Tyler talks about, lasers or rocks? What should we do to get more tension.... Hm, let's buff rocks." I think that's a little unfair. If this thread is any indication, there have been sudden revelatory 'aha' moments for several people. And this is after a couple years of people trying to explain how carrier micro works and getting dismissed as 'elitists.' What it took was a very concise compare/contrast video demonstration by Tyler. If that can happen with people on this thread, there's no reason why it can't happen with Blizzard.
Exactly. I'm not going to lie I watched Broodwar for about 4 years and played for 2. I played Terran and I had no idea that's what carrier micro was and how they were doing it. I just thought Carriers did that stuff anyways, seems they didn't o_O
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I felt this since the the beta but I would never have been able to explain it the way Tyler does it !
Glad to see you are still around! You are such an awesome guy 
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On September 18 2012 05:55 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 05:07 niteReloaded wrote:On September 17 2012 05:21 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Continuous deployment of interceptors while moving I think is really really cool but is the easiest thing to classify as a buggy behavior. I hope we can get it though because it takes so much attention and skill to use effectively. It is very strong but becomes incredibly difficult to do as soon as your opponent forces action in two places at once. So the players are countering each other by doing increasingly difficult strategies and that is AWESOME. The protoss player got the carriers knowing they'll be sufficiently effective ONLY IF he can pull off this micro. The enemy's response is not to bang his head against this really strong micro but rather to split the protoss's attention, punishing him for having tunnel vision on his carriers. Someone is gonna make a mistake and miscalculate and that's how the game should be decided.
If the continuous deployment of interceptors ISN'T in the game, then interceptor healing is pretty much just a straight buff. There isn't really any tension if both things aren't in the game. See, concepts like 'tension' are beyond a brain like Dustin Browder's, I think stuff of that level doesn't even cross his mind. I bet if he reads this, he'll start wondering and ask himself... "Which part of SC2 covers this tension Tyler talks about, lasers or rocks? What should we do to get more tension.... Hm, let's buff rocks." I think that's a little unfair. If this thread is any indication, there have been sudden revelatory 'aha' moments for several people. And this is after a couple years of people trying to explain how carrier micro works and getting dismissed as 'elitists.' What it took was a very concise compare/contrast video demonstration by Tyler. If that can happen with people on this thread, there's no reason why it can't happen with Blizzard.
Well it's far easier to listen to and understand the point of view of someone when that person is a professional player, winner of a TSL and well-respected community figure, as opposed to some random faceless poster on the internet with a different opinion than yours.
But because they are professional players, I wager they spend more time practicing and trying to understand the game better than they do posting here or making informational videos; this is unfortunate but necessary for careers after all. I do think however that we would be making progress a lot faster if players such as Tyler, MorroW and LaLuSh helped the newer members of the community (and to a lesser extent Blizzard) understand what exactly could be done to improve the game and why that would be the case; that information would then help the community pressure Blizzard more into at least trying said features. (note I only named those players because they stick out to me the most in terms of sharing their opinions on the game when they do post) But, as I said, it's not really their job to do so.
:/
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On September 18 2012 06:00 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 05:55 Falling wrote:On September 18 2012 05:07 niteReloaded wrote:On September 17 2012 05:21 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Continuous deployment of interceptors while moving I think is really really cool but is the easiest thing to classify as a buggy behavior. I hope we can get it though because it takes so much attention and skill to use effectively. It is very strong but becomes incredibly difficult to do as soon as your opponent forces action in two places at once. So the players are countering each other by doing increasingly difficult strategies and that is AWESOME. The protoss player got the carriers knowing they'll be sufficiently effective ONLY IF he can pull off this micro. The enemy's response is not to bang his head against this really strong micro but rather to split the protoss's attention, punishing him for having tunnel vision on his carriers. Someone is gonna make a mistake and miscalculate and that's how the game should be decided.
If the continuous deployment of interceptors ISN'T in the game, then interceptor healing is pretty much just a straight buff. There isn't really any tension if both things aren't in the game. See, concepts like 'tension' are beyond a brain like Dustin Browder's, I think stuff of that level doesn't even cross his mind. I bet if he reads this, he'll start wondering and ask himself... "Which part of SC2 covers this tension Tyler talks about, lasers or rocks? What should we do to get more tension.... Hm, let's buff rocks." I think that's a little unfair. If this thread is any indication, there have been sudden revelatory 'aha' moments for several people. And this is after a couple years of people trying to explain how carrier micro works and getting dismissed as 'elitists.' What it took was a very concise compare/contrast video demonstration by Tyler. If that can happen with people on this thread, there's no reason why it can't happen with Blizzard. Exactly. I'm not going to lie I watched Broodwar for about 4 years and played for 2. I played Terran and I had no idea that's what carrier micro was and how they were doing it. I just thought Carriers did that stuff anyways, seems they didn't o_O
Similar position here. As a zerg player, didn't know the full intricacies of carrier micro in BW although Tyler was right when he said 'fans appreciate the micro'. I remember watching Stork's surprise carriers tear up Flash on Heartbreak Ridge. They just wouldn't die!
I'd be surprised if this was common knowledge in the SC2 development team at all.
And sadly, even if it was, I don't think they'd implement it. Just look at their general design philosophy:
1) take out high control units.
2) make everything attack move friendly.
Anyway, very nice video. Maybe somebody will watch it and sees the light. At worst, it reminds us all of the pinnacle of game desight that was BW.
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This is a brilliant post man. I just hope David Kim and Browder read this.
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On September 18 2012 05:07 niteReloaded wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 05:21 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Continuous deployment of interceptors while moving I think is really really cool but is the easiest thing to classify as a buggy behavior. I hope we can get it though because it takes so much attention and skill to use effectively. It is very strong but becomes incredibly difficult to do as soon as your opponent forces action in two places at once. So the players are countering each other by doing increasingly difficult strategies and that is AWESOME. The protoss player got the carriers knowing they'll be sufficiently effective ONLY IF he can pull off this micro. The enemy's response is not to bang his head against this really strong micro but rather to split the protoss's attention, punishing him for having tunnel vision on his carriers. Someone is gonna make a mistake and miscalculate and that's how the game should be decided.
If the continuous deployment of interceptors ISN'T in the game, then interceptor healing is pretty much just a straight buff. There isn't really any tension if both things aren't in the game. See, concepts like 'tension' are beyond a brain like Dustin Browder's, I think stuff of that level doesn't even cross his mind. I bet if he reads this, he'll start wondering and ask himself... "Which part of SC2 covers this tension Tyler talks about, lasers or rocks? What should we do to get more tension.... Hm, let's buff rocks."
Why does everybody hate on Browder and Blizzard in threads like these?
Blizzard gains nothing by making a fundamentally competitive game casual friendly, so that doesn't work.
Browder has no reason to make a bad game, and he IS a high up in Blizzard, so he has at least an above average brain. That means that he makes non-retarded decisions based on the knowledge he has on hand at the time of the decision being made. Cool down for a bit and seriously put yourself in his shoes before you judge him so harshly. Most of us, in his place in his experiences, would have made a lot of the same decisions.
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On September 18 2012 05:13 blabber wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 05:07 rd wrote:On September 18 2012 04:59 Ares[Effort] wrote:
Really wish they would add this but I doubt it since they don't want to add something that requires some skill. They care about pleasing the casuals Which is why we should drive the point home that for casuals nothing changes: they can still amove their carriers and lose them all. what blizzard doesn't want is this: a noob sees nony using carriers to their full potential. the noob tries it themselves and it doesn't work nearly as well as when nony does it. the noob gets frustrated and becomes depressed at how bad he is at starcraft
When they say casual I don't think they mean the casual e-sports spectator, whom are aware of how good pro-gamers are and can appreciate their skill.
On September 18 2012 05:15 zeross wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 05:07 rd wrote:On September 18 2012 04:59 Ares[Effort] wrote:
Really wish they would add this but I doubt it since they don't want to add something that requires some skill. They care about pleasing the casuals Which is why we should drive the point home that for casuals nothing changes: they can still amove their carriers and lose them all. well in fact you just said a thing and kinda the oposite. its because the units can be microed to be better that some units just fell weaks for the noobs. because blizzard have to balance the unit around the "best" possible human control. this make "noob" control a lot weaker. what i mean is : if they don't had the micro trick, they can buff the carrier for everyone, if they do had it, it will be already considered a buff for the carrier (and would be at pro level) so the noobs will continue to have carriers that sucks. i think its the problem blizzard is having for implementing microable units. Its cool to watch, its cool to use if you know hown its a pain for the noobs that got weaker units because of this.
The casual isn't fighting high level players who will punish a protoss using balanced carriers for controlling them poorly. I'm pretty sure at whatever league they're at, a-moving is just fine. I'm merely mocking Blizzard's statement. As for carriers that "suck" at the non-pro level, they're pretty viable in the low leagues. Actually, just about anything is. Carriers only fall off entirely in high level play.
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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
Dustin Browder's specific response
We have seen the video. We are very focused on Heart of the Swarm units right now and we don't know what the Carrier will be doing in the beta with all of the new units available on the Stargate. Will it see more use? Less use? We aren't going to make any changes immediately but we will certainly discuss it.
Thank you for the post and thanks to the maker of the video.
Dustin Browder's general response
We're seeing some community discussion on units that we shipped with Wings of Liberty. Examples include: While we are very willing to change these units down the road we are not focused on them for the next few weeks. We are very interested in what kind of strategies we are introducing with the new beta units as well as what types of balance problems we are creating. Obviously you can post on any subject you like and if you want to talk about older units feel free. We will definitely read your posts on older units. But we probably won't make balance or design changes of any significance to older units anytime soon. Once we stabilize the balance on the new beta units we will take a look to see what changes make sense to older units.
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On September 18 2012 06:50 juicyjames wrote:Dustin Browder's specific responseShow nested quote +We have seen the video. We are very focused on Heart of the Swarm units right now and we don't know what the Carrier will be doing in the beta with all of the new units available on the Stargate. Will it see more use? Less use? We aren't going to make any changes immediately but we will certainly discuss it.
Thank you for the post and thanks to the maker of the video. Dustin Browder's general responseShow nested quote +We're seeing some community discussion on units that we shipped with Wings of Liberty. Examples include: While we are very willing to change these units down the road we are not focused on them for the next few weeks. We are very interested in what kind of strategies we are introducing with the new beta units as well as what types of balance problems we are creating. Obviously you can post on any subject you like and if you want to talk about older units feel free. We will definitely read your posts on older units. But we probably won't make balance or design changes of any significance to older units anytime soon. Once we stabilize the balance on the new beta units we will take a look to see what changes make sense to older units.
DB butthurt level: 9001
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On September 18 2012 06:24 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 05:07 niteReloaded wrote:On September 17 2012 05:21 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Continuous deployment of interceptors while moving I think is really really cool but is the easiest thing to classify as a buggy behavior. I hope we can get it though because it takes so much attention and skill to use effectively. It is very strong but becomes incredibly difficult to do as soon as your opponent forces action in two places at once. So the players are countering each other by doing increasingly difficult strategies and that is AWESOME. The protoss player got the carriers knowing they'll be sufficiently effective ONLY IF he can pull off this micro. The enemy's response is not to bang his head against this really strong micro but rather to split the protoss's attention, punishing him for having tunnel vision on his carriers. Someone is gonna make a mistake and miscalculate and that's how the game should be decided.
If the continuous deployment of interceptors ISN'T in the game, then interceptor healing is pretty much just a straight buff. There isn't really any tension if both things aren't in the game. See, concepts like 'tension' are beyond a brain like Dustin Browder's, I think stuff of that level doesn't even cross his mind. I bet if he reads this, he'll start wondering and ask himself... "Which part of SC2 covers this tension Tyler talks about, lasers or rocks? What should we do to get more tension.... Hm, let's buff rocks." Why does everybody hate on Browder and Blizzard in threads like these? Blizzard gains nothing by making a fundamentally competitive game casual friendly, so that doesn't work. Browder has no reason to make a bad game, and he IS a high up in Blizzard, so he has at least an above average brain. That means that he makes non-retarded decisions based on the knowledge he has on hand at the time of the decision being made. Cool down for a bit and seriously put yourself in his shoes before you judge him so harshly. Most of us, in his place in his experiences, would have made a lot of the same decisions.
Except some of us recall Capcom making the completely opposite decision from Blizzard when combos were discovered in Street Fighter. In fact, without combos, the fighting game genre would have died out a long time ago.
edit: I'm highly disappointed in Browder's response. The new units introduced in BW, for the most part, were only used in certain very specific match-ups. What made the expansion great is the amount of changes they made to the old units. Trying to fit in the new units without considering drastic changes to old units is a big mistake. They need to start doing it while there is still time to make drastic changes to old units, not just simple numbers tweaking.
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On September 18 2012 01:58 p1cKLes wrote:
I would love to hear more of this type of stuff from pros that played BW. This is the type of stuff that we need in order to make HotS really good.
Preferably in youtube format that developers can easily understand.
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On September 18 2012 06:51 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 06:50 juicyjames wrote:Dustin Browder's specific responseWe have seen the video. We are very focused on Heart of the Swarm units right now and we don't know what the Carrier will be doing in the beta with all of the new units available on the Stargate. Will it see more use? Less use? We aren't going to make any changes immediately but we will certainly discuss it.
Thank you for the post and thanks to the maker of the video. Dustin Browder's general responseWe're seeing some community discussion on units that we shipped with Wings of Liberty. Examples include: While we are very willing to change these units down the road we are not focused on them for the next few weeks. We are very interested in what kind of strategies we are introducing with the new beta units as well as what types of balance problems we are creating. Obviously you can post on any subject you like and if you want to talk about older units feel free. We will definitely read your posts on older units. But we probably won't make balance or design changes of any significance to older units anytime soon. Once we stabilize the balance on the new beta units we will take a look to see what changes make sense to older units. DB butthurt level: 9001
Well that's expected. HOTS feels to be trying to revolutionise Zerg while keeping Protoss the same, with them refusing to consider changes to warp ins and forcefields. I just hope they actually manage to bring it in for LOTV, and also hope for them to have a "save the carrier" campaign in there.
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As much as petulant TLers like to whine about Browder and Kim not reading or listening, I know for a fact they follow these forums fairly avidly. An excellent, non-inflammatory post from a respected member of the community like Tyler should prove helpful in getting the proposed changes integrated.
An articulate plea Tyler! Well done bud.
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On September 18 2012 05:55 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 05:07 niteReloaded wrote:On September 17 2012 05:21 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Continuous deployment of interceptors while moving I think is really really cool but is the easiest thing to classify as a buggy behavior. I hope we can get it though because it takes so much attention and skill to use effectively. It is very strong but becomes incredibly difficult to do as soon as your opponent forces action in two places at once. So the players are countering each other by doing increasingly difficult strategies and that is AWESOME. The protoss player got the carriers knowing they'll be sufficiently effective ONLY IF he can pull off this micro. The enemy's response is not to bang his head against this really strong micro but rather to split the protoss's attention, punishing him for having tunnel vision on his carriers. Someone is gonna make a mistake and miscalculate and that's how the game should be decided.
If the continuous deployment of interceptors ISN'T in the game, then interceptor healing is pretty much just a straight buff. There isn't really any tension if both things aren't in the game. See, concepts like 'tension' are beyond a brain like Dustin Browder's, I think stuff of that level doesn't even cross his mind. I bet if he reads this, he'll start wondering and ask himself... "Which part of SC2 covers this tension Tyler talks about, lasers or rocks? What should we do to get more tension.... Hm, let's buff rocks." I think that's a little unfair. If this thread is any indication, there have been sudden revelatory 'aha' moments for several people. And this is after a couple years of people trying to explain how carrier micro works and getting dismissed as 'elitists.' What it took was a very concise compare/contrast video demonstration by Tyler. If that can happen with people on this thread, there's no reason why it can't happen with Blizzard.
Exactly, the dismissive, aggressive nature of the posts were always frustrating. Also the BW enthusiasts are sometimes just stark raving fucking mad. Yes skill is important but there comes a point where compromise is insane.
Liimiting how many units you can select or buildings is just nuts for example. Yet I saw people push for that and they wondered why the new people hated the idea.
Also, I for one fucking love command queueing. I wish it was a bit smarter for warp prism drops but you can't win them all.
EDIT: and the video really clinches it and puts it in simple terms for people to understand, makes a world of difference. That goes for any software development / bug reports etc.
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On September 18 2012 06:50 juicyjames wrote:Dustin Browder's specific responseShow nested quote +We have seen the video. We are very focused on Heart of the Swarm units right now and we don't know what the Carrier will be doing in the beta with all of the new units available on the Stargate. Will it see more use? Less use? We aren't going to make any changes immediately but we will certainly discuss it.
Thank you for the post and thanks to the maker of the video. Dustin Browder's general responseShow nested quote +We're seeing some community discussion on units that we shipped with Wings of Liberty. Examples include: While we are very willing to change these units down the road we are not focused on them for the next few weeks. We are very interested in what kind of strategies we are introducing with the new beta units as well as what types of balance problems we are creating. Obviously you can post on any subject you like and if you want to talk about older units feel free. We will definitely read your posts on older units. But we probably won't make balance or design changes of any significance to older units anytime soon. Once we stabilize the balance on the new beta units we will take a look to see what changes make sense to older units.
I'm glad he's acknowledged the thread but it's probably at such a size that they 'have to' address it.
I just wonder if they /actually get it/ as to why this kind of weird shit is awesome. I don't know about most people here on TL but I'm personally quite skillless, I just want this shit for better pro matches I watch.
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There was also a great tension if the Terran player decided to employ ghosts against carriers (or arbiters, or especially both). As lockdown's range is 8, you have to get pretty close, and with the ghost being as weak as it is, you definitely want to hide them from being stasised or just stabbed by zealots/DTs. Or psi-stormed. But it's a case where if you choose to use that tech, you'll be rewarded by how good your control is even as you and your opponent have an arms race as your control gets better and better. You can be good at controlling the SC2 carrier, but you max out the unit's potential a lot easier.
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Excellent video! Hopefully Blizzard recognizes this and implements it!
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EPT
