EPTthink about it, if warhound costs 300/100/5 60s build time and do 5 dmg flat with its haywire missle only doing 10 dmg nobody will use it. or it moves as slow as a thor, nobody will use it.
but I agree the current warhound stats need some nerf.
The warhound - a deathball unit, not a "mech" unit - Page 10
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ref4
2933 Posts
think about it, if warhound costs 300/100/5 60s build time and do 5 dmg flat with its haywire missle only doing 10 dmg nobody will use it. or it moves as slow as a thor, nobody will use it. but I agree the current warhound stats need some nerf. | ||
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Brahoono
119 Posts
On September 06 2012 22:26 ref4 wrote: maybe the warhound is so OP right off the bat is because Blizz want beta testers to use the unit? think about it, if warhound costs 300/100/5 60s build time and do 5 dmg flat with its haywire missle only doing 10 dmg nobody will use it. or it moves as slow as a thor, nobody will use it. but I agree the current warhound stats need some nerf. Discussion is not about the Warhound being OP, but being poorly designed in the first place. It just doesn't fit mech or terran in general | ||
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FortMonty
United States63 Posts
On September 06 2012 21:44 summerloud wrote: im sure some people would enjoy protoss to have a central production building to build all units or have terran have the ability to chronoboost, but thats not the point the point is diversity. what do you gain by making mech viable but mech being just bio-playstyle with bigger units? What you gain is an interesting new style for a different tech path. the bio Style isn't JUST about it's mobility, it's about multi pronged attacks and harass, attacking one area while harassing another. Adding mobility to mech wouldn't make it bio, it would make it versatile. When I go into a PvT, I always know almost for a fact that they Terran will go Bio-centric in their play, it doesn't even require a scout for that, if they go anything else, I can easily make a slight adjustment and then Roflstomp the Terran because they either went mech or bio mech or whatever. Occassionally a helion opening could get me, but that's disregarding if I scout at all, but quintessentially, a terran will always go Bio in TvP. It's sort of the same for TvT as well, you can almost always assume the game will come down to Rine/tank v Rine/Tank, trench warfare. Trench warefare is all fine and dandy, but I like aggression, I like mobility TvT just reminds me of the American Revolution where everyone went out into a field with their guns and cannons stood there and then opened fire. To me it's boring, but that's just an opinion, I think the idea behind the Warhound is a great addition to introducing a new dynamic and breaking the monotony of the standard metagame and composition. For instance I like that TvZ you can go Marine Tank, Mech, and Bio and have all of them give you an equal chance at winning the game without an inherent weaknesses with the composition. Sure you can go Mech in TvT, but most of the time it still comes down to trench warefare or it just loses to marauder heavy bio and you literally only have Bio for an option vs Toss, maybe that's changed, but I still think TvP meching had more problems than just a BattleHelion could solve. My suggestion for the Warhound was to make it an alternative to the Thor, a weaker, faster version that could still fullfill the same basic functions (Maybe give it an Anti-air attack instead of the haywire missle and keep it at factory tech with tech lab) That way it won't be outragiously strong vs mechanical (solving your tank problem and keeping them viable) but also introduces that same new dynamic. It's still pretty damn strong early game, but gain, that's all a work in progressI suppose. I don't agree that Blizzard fucked up either, this IS the Beta, there are supposed to be flaws and I doubt Blizzard would want to get rid of the tanks lines simply because THEY alone dislike them. To me, TvT is a dreary uneventful match up that can easily be predicted throughout the game just based on how TvT is played. As I said, you can always assume it's gonna be Marine/Tank and 90% of the time, you'll be right. Again, that's my opinion. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12021 Posts
It's sort of the same for TvT as well, you can almost always assume the game will come down to Rine/tank v Rine/Tank, trench warfare. As someone who mechs every game, I meet quite a lot of fellow meching terrans and mech vs mech is one of the most exciting matchups there is. It was in Broodwar and it is now. It's all about zone control, positioning and controlling the movement of your opponent. | ||
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one-one-one
Sweden551 Posts
On September 06 2012 22:32 FortMonty wrote: What you gain is an interesting new style for a different tech path. the bio Style isn't JUST about it's mobility, it's about multi pronged attacks and harass, attacking one area while harassing another. Adding mobility to mech wouldn't make it bio, it would make it versatile. When I go into a PvT, I always know almost for a fact that they Terran will go Bio-centric in their play, it doesn't even require a scout for that, if they go anything else, I can easily make a slight adjustment and then Roflstomp the Terran because they either went mech or bio mech or whatever. Occassionally a helion opening could get me, but that's disregarding if I scout at all, but quintessentially, a terran will always go Bio in TvP. It's sort of the same for TvT as well, you can almost always assume the game will come down to Rine/tank v Rine/Tank, trench warfare. Trench warefare is all fine and dandy, but I like aggression, I like mobility TvT just reminds me of the American Revolution where everyone went out into a field with their guns and cannons stood there and then opened fire. To me it's boring, but that's just an opinion, I think the idea behind the Warhound is a great addition to introducing a new dynamic and breaking the monotony of the standard metagame and composition. For instance I like that TvZ you can go Marine Tank, Mech, and Bio and have all of them give you an equal chance at winning the game without an inherent weaknesses with the composition. Sure you can go Mech in TvT, but most of the time it still comes down to trench warefare or it just loses to marauder heavy bio and you literally only have Bio for an option vs Toss, maybe that's changed, but I still think TvP meching had more problems than just a BattleHelion could solve. My suggestion for the Warhound was to make it an alternative to the Thor, a weaker, faster version that could still fullfill the same basic functions (Maybe give it an Anti-air attack instead of the haywire missle and keep it at factory tech with tech lab) That way it won't be outragiously strong vs mechanical (solving your tank problem and keeping them viable) but also introduces that same new dynamic. It's still pretty damn strong early game, but gain, that's all a work in progressI suppose. I don't agree that Blizzard fucked up either, this IS the Beta, there are supposed to be flaws and I doubt Blizzard would want to get rid of the tanks lines simply because THEY alone dislike them. To me, TvT is a dreary uneventful match up that can easily be predicted throughout the game just based on how TvT is played. As I said, you can always assume it's gonna be Marine/Tank and 90% of the time, you'll be right. Again, that's my opinion. Yeah, as he said - he plays Protoss. High level TvT has never been trench warfare and never will be. TvT overtook TvZ as the best matchup in WoL in my opinion. It is the only matchup where defenders advantage actually is strong and where positional play with tanks is possible. Moreover, it requires tons and tons of skill and because of it the players that are among the absolute best will be able to really shine. The boring TvT tank stalemate is a myth. | ||
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FortMonty
United States63 Posts
On September 06 2012 22:55 Qikz wrote: As someone who mechs every game, I meet quite a lot of fellow meching terrans and mech vs mech is one of the most exciting matchups there is. It was in Broodwar and it is now. It's all about zone control, positioning and controlling the movement of your opponent. Yeah so it's basically the same as normal marine tank where it's just trench warefare. I'm not saying exclusively Terran's only go rine tank, especially on the ladder, but the point is that I think TvT needs more of a dynamic rather than just stalemates with basically every match. Mech vs Mech CAN be fun to watch and play, but only because it's a bit more rare. Anywho, I don't want the warhounds to replace the tank, but rather add more variety to the match-up. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12021 Posts
On September 06 2012 23:02 FortMonty wrote: Yeah so it's basically the same as normal marine tank where it's just trench warefare. I'm not saying exclusively Terran's only go rine tank, especially on the ladder, but the point is that I think TvT needs more of a dynamic rather than just stalemates with basically every match. Mech vs Mech CAN be fun to watch and play, but only because it's a bit more rare. Anywho, I don't want the warhounds to replace the tank, but rather add more variety to the match-up. If the warhound just stops tank lines completely it'll ruin the matchup. I've never, ever seen a stalemate in a TvT, it's so exciting for the zone control aspects and then tech up to air. TvT is the matchup that deserves to be like that and it's not boring in the slightest. Go back and watch Flash in various mech TvT's throughout BW and watch MVP play mech vs mech in SC2. It's super exciting with small pokes all over the place and the vision superiority makes it really easy to break tank lines too. The other 2 mirror matchups have been awful in both SC2. They're not dynamic at all. PvP is either you die in the early game or it goes to collosus vs collosus and ZvZ is whoever gets the most infestors later game. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On September 06 2012 23:02 one-one-one wrote: The boring TvT tank stalemate is a myth. I agree and I don't agree. I agree because it's true: TvT mech vs mech can be awesome and very fast. I don't agree because some terrans just decide to turtle really hard and smart. If the agressive mechterran misses the right window, the siegeline can't be broken anymore = long boring game. I play very agressive mech in WOL and somethimes I just miss the timing, and when my opponent is some boring player, the game will take 1 hour 100%. | ||
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Gben592
United Kingdom281 Posts
On September 06 2012 22:26 ref4 wrote: maybe the warhound is so OP right off the bat is because Blizz want beta testers to use the unit? think about it, if warhound costs 300/100/5 60s build time and do 5 dmg flat with its haywire missle only doing 10 dmg nobody will use it. or it moves as slow as a thor, nobody will use it. but I agree the current warhound stats need some nerf. Exactly, it doesn't fit in the game ^^ | ||
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one-one-one
Sweden551 Posts
On September 06 2012 23:06 Snowbear wrote: I agree and I don't agree. I agree because it's true: TvT mech vs mech can be awesome and very fast. I don't agree because some terrans just decide to turtle really hard and smart. If the agressive mechterran misses the right window, the siegeline can't be broken anymore = long boring game. I play very agressive mech in WOL and somethimes I just miss the timing, and when my opponent is some boring player, the game will take 1 hour 100%. Transition into sky terran then? And as you pointed out, even mech can be played aggressively. The same goes for marine tank vs marine tank. Want more aggressive play? Just stay more marineheavy. Wanna turtle? Favor a large siegetank count. TvT doesn't need more variety in the form of a mechanical marauder. | ||
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FortMonty
United States63 Posts
On September 06 2012 23:02 one-one-one wrote: Yeah, as he said - he plays Protoss. High level TvT has never been trench warfare and never will be. TvT overtook TvZ as the best matchup in WoL in my opinion. It is the only matchup where defenders advantage actually is strong and where positional play with tanks is possible. Moreover, it requires tons and tons of skill and because of it the players that are among the absolute best will be able to really shine. The boring TvT tank stalemate is a myth. My most played Race is Terran but my current race is Random. Yes TvT to me looks like trench warefare where basically what you do is poke and squeeze to gain ground on your opponent, maybe territory warefare would be better for you? Obviously it requires skills, patience, and good decision making, but to me it's the slowest match-up and can be the most boring to watch, again, that's only MY OPINION as I stated. The warhound would break the monotony of the typical TvT game. Personally I think ZvZ is a really fun high level match up, granted it makes it past the 8 minute mark because it's high speed reactionary play and I think it requires just as much skill in it's own regard as TvT, but again, opinion, opinion, opinion. Trench warefare is not a myth in TvT, it's a viewpoint. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On September 06 2012 23:10 one-one-one wrote: Transition into sky terran then? And as you pointed out, even mech can be played aggressively. The same goes for marine tank vs marine tank. Want more aggressive play? Just stay more marineheavy. Wanna turtle? Favor a large siegetank count. TvT doesn't need more variety in the form of a mechanical marauder. That's what I do, but those really bad mannered boring terrans will turtle hard with a thick line of turrets. It can really take more then an hour to break that.. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12021 Posts
On September 06 2012 23:10 FortMonty wrote: My most played Race is Terran but my current race is Random. Yes TvT to me looks like trench warefare where basically what you do is poke and squeeze to gain ground on your opponent, maybe territory warefare would be better for you? Obviously it requires skills, patience, and good decision making, but to me it's the slowest match-up and can be the most boring to watch, again, that's only MY OPINION as I stated. The warhound would break the monotony of the typical TvT game. Personally I think ZvZ is a really fun high level match up, granted it makes it past the 8 minute mark because it's high speed reactionary play and I think it requires just as much skill in it's own regard as TvT, but again, opinion, opinion, opinion. Trench warefare is not a myth in TvT, it's a viewpoint. It doesn't break the monotomy of TvT at all,m TvT isn't monotonous in the slightest and all it'll do is TvT will be Warhound vs Warhound which is going to be incredibly boring to watch. Tank lines, slowly squeezing land out of your opponent and going for the air switch IS exciting to play and watch. It's like chess and it comes down to your intelligent decision making long term rather than how well you can move one unit and not get them clumped up like PvP is. | ||
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one-one-one
Sweden551 Posts
On September 06 2012 23:10 FortMonty wrote: My most played Race is Terran but my current race is Random. Yes TvT to me looks like trench warefare where basically what you do is poke and squeeze to gain ground on your opponent, maybe territory warefare would be better for you? Obviously it requires skills, patience, and good decision making, but to me it's the slowest match-up and can be the most boring to watch, again, that's only MY OPINION as I stated. The warhound would break the monotony of the typical TvT game. Personally I think ZvZ is a really fun high level match up, granted it makes it past the 8 minute mark because it's high speed reactionary play and I think it requires just as much skill in it's own regard as TvT, but again, opinion, opinion, opinion. Trench warefare is not a myth in TvT, it's a viewpoint. Of course you can be of the opinion that TvT looks like trench warfare. Your definition of it sounds a lot like the common notion of "positional play". Positional play as in what made BW the best RTS game to date. Positional play as being rewarded for strategic play allowing you to seize key areas of the map. Not as in: Oh, you got 20 siege tanks - well that sucks for you because I can just amove my zealots , archons ,immortals and colossus and your positional advantage on the high ground behind a choke doesn't mean shit. | ||
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one-one-one
Sweden551 Posts
On September 06 2012 23:14 Snowbear wrote: That's what I do, but those really bad mannered boring terrans will turtle hard with a thick line of turrets. It can really take more then an hour to break that.. Then make ghosts to nuke his turrets? You will actually see long TvT stalemate games in bronze league and stuff. There is a reason why the play you describe above is not seen in prolevel games - it is a bad strategy. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12021 Posts
On September 06 2012 23:14 Snowbear wrote: That's what I do, but those really bad mannered boring terrans will turtle hard with a thick line of turrets. It can really take more then an hour to break that.. As someone who plays with a lot of tanks and turrets and against people who do that, I'm just going to come out and say that you don't know how to play. Have you not heard of battlecruisers and ravens? Yamato the Turrets and also PDD above the turrets and your high BC count will rip through his tank line. This allows your ground forces to just push in for the win. EDIT: also ghosts. | ||
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FortMonty
United States63 Posts
I personally dislike TvT currently, I'm only Platinum, maybe that's why, maybe cause I suck with Terran, who knows, either way, I think a change is never a bad thing, as long as it doesn't upset the balance of the game but also offers more versatility. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On September 06 2012 11:17 Thaniri wrote: Honestly warhounds need to be cut completely. They LOOK terrible. Their aesthetics are stupid, and don't feel starcraft-y at all. With speed hellions and warhounds, mech is ACTUALLY FASTER THAN NON STIMMED BIO. I, on the other hand, like the look of the warhound. Nice technical look. | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On September 06 2012 23:26 [F_]aths wrote: I, on the other hand, like the look of the warhound. Nice technical look. Yes, same here. Old Warhound model was terrible, but new seems quite good for my taste. Looks a lot like combination of some kind of Mech Warrior with Dreadnaught from Warhammer 40k. Also, not talking about balance or design, just about look. Balance wise, it needs to be nerfed. | ||
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BobMcJohnson
France2916 Posts
What about making it anti-air only? There are no ground to air only units in the game (except spores/turrets) so it would kinda make it more interesting. Would it make it useful though that's another question  | ||
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