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On September 09 2012 13:33 GTR wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks that the health of the Warhound should have been nerfed before anything else? 220HP for a 150/75 unit is quite ridiculous. Maybe chuck it down to 160 or something.
I think 220HP is kinda OK if you nerf their damage enough. Then they can become just meat shields for siege tanks, and mech composition would look like:
1) siege tanks for damage.
2) warhounds as meat shields vs mechanical and battle hellions as meat shields vs light.
3) widow mines and vikings as anti-air.
This compositions will encourage positional play and will be real fun for spectators.
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You now already have Hellion/Battlehellion as a very decent meatshield. Also Thors work in that regard. There is absolutely no need for a 220HP meatshield when usually nothing can engage a well positioned mechposition anyways. Other than Immortals ofc but they will pretty much fuck mech up anyways if you nerf the Warhound damage again.
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On September 09 2012 13:33 GTR wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks that the health of the Warhound should have been nerfed before anything else? 220HP for a 150/75 unit is quite ridiculous. Maybe chuck it down to 160 or something.
I think this is a pretty good point but price is still a MAJOR issues...
Tank: 150/125/3/45s 160hp 1 armor ~14.4 dps (+9.6dps) 7range speed 2.25+ Show Spoiler + In siege mode: ~11.7 dps (+5dps) + splash 13range
Warhound: 150/ 75/2/45s 220hp 1 armor ~13.5 dps (+5dps) 7range (+3) speed 2.81
Siege tanks are more expensive, slower and weaker... WHs (if they are to remain a strong "anti mech" specialization unit need to cost more..
Immortal: 225/100/4/55s 200hp/100sh 1 armor ~13.8dps (+20.7dps) range 6 speed 2.25
If the WH were something like 200/100/4/45s it would make more sense to me - and as I think we've all seen in TvT mech Thors are still the best ground answer for breaking siege lines. It seems in HotS so far:
Siege > WH > Thor > Siege
so increasing the WH price would still allow it to be made as a response to Thors and getting more Siege tanks (or Mauraders) would be an appropriate response to WHs.
EDIT: (included bonus damage dps)
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I completely agree, I feel like when I to mech (granted i'm no gm) I usually lose to early game muta or banshee. It would be nice to have an anti-air meching unit instead of having to wait for thor's which can easily be magic boxed anyway. In fact, I still think blizzard was on to something removing the thor and putting in a goliath type replacement that this warhound would be perfect for. Nice post : ) you should be a balance designer!
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I don't know if this idea has been pointed out yet, but why not make the Thor the Terran "uber unit" as Blizz had originally planned and implement the change proposed in the OP?
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WarHound DPS should be high against Mech, not against all, and it is ridiculous that WarHounds enter in game BEFORE any Siege unit has been done (even Siege Tank), when "help to brake siege lines" was it's role
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On September 10 2012 19:54 Sogetsu wrote:
WarHound DPS should be high against Mech, not against all, and it is ridiculous that WarHounds enter in game BEFORE any Siege unit has been done (even Siege Tank), when "help to brake siege lines" was it's role
Absofockinlutely!
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Hoping to get my idea across and more feedback relaing to the warhound originally posted on the blizz forums
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6521293507
I dont think adjusting health & dps values is enough to fix this issue
Swap role of Thor & Warhound instead
Current state
Thors:
Anti air for terran mech primarily vs muta and also a front line unit to soak up damage
Warhounds:
Designed to be a siegebreaker - anti mech but ends up being a major anti protoss
However, currently it is also being used very effectively as a reaver and effective base D due to speed
Suggestion
Thor:
In WoL, thors arent used against protoss because theyre too slow, expensive and countered by immortals & chargelot. They are used vs zerg and sometimes in TvT for anti viking or to soak up damage against tank lines. If blizz wanted an anti siegeline unit, this should be it. It takes a lot of tank fire and isnt splashed much due to its' size, so a small group of would be capable of breaking siege lines if they were given haywire that HOTS warhounds have now. It would again be limited by cost, size and slow movement, which would make it not seen vs Protoss and would be difficult to mass unlike the warhound.
Take away its' anti air ability and it will be used for purely anti ground mech vs terran. It would still do ok against zerg with the normal auto attack, be used vs T against other mech (also effective vs warhounds) but too slow and expensive to make a large number of to be the primary army. An ability such as haywire SHOULD NOT be able to be massed
Warhound:
Give the warhound the ability to shoot air but due to the lower cost than thors either take away the splash or reduce the anti air damage significantly thus making the warhound the AA for mech play. Given their current speed, it is better suited to fend off fast moving mutas or drops for which mech is vulnerable. It would also still do sufficient damage against ground units and is easily massable.
With the proposed changes, the matchups would be affected as follows
Against T: Warhounds to act as the anti air and the main fodder in a mech army. Thors could be moved in or medivac dropped to haywire tanks if an opening is left or to flank effectively thus requiring positioning and careful use of the haywire ability to break siege lines rather than a simple A move warhounds. It would also make players have to balance between expensive, high dps units like tanks & thors with fodder units like marine, hellion and warhound rather than just massing warhounds.
A hard counter to a unit should not be more of that unit (see warhound vs warhound…). As such, if a lot of thors are made marine, marauder should be able to shred it so a balance has to be made in mech with tanks and hellions vs MM. Warhounds would just be the mech AA and fast response to drops.
Against Z: AA against muta would be still achieved using warhounds. Thors would likely not be made, therefore matchup stays similar to how it is currently. Furthermore, siegeline breakers would remain to be broodlords as it is currently, in addition to burrow charge ultra or swarmhost.
Also due to the viper cloud, it would be easy to blind the thors and have mutas mop up ALL of the mech if thors were left as the primarly mech AA. However, with more warhounds out on the field it would be harder to just hard counter mech with 1 spell on and a muta flock. This would also be augmented by the fact that thors are SLOW, which would make it difficult to move out of an AOE spell that prevents them from shooting air. Mutas should remain as harass units, not the hard counter to mech along w the viper. Z has a lot of options to break siege lines already.
Against P: No more massable haywire and makes thors slightly more viable due to their heavy anti mech ability so well placed thors would do significant damage to a deathball (which blizz wants to go away from). Mech will be extremely viable due to battle hellions vs zealot; tanks vs armored; haywire vs immortals and would take micro to make sure each units is attacking the right thing to pick apart a deathball, while a deathball would still do heavy damage, thus making this matchup a huge slugfest rather then deathball "A" moving over mech in WoL or warhounds+hellion "A" moving over deathball in HOTS. Taking away haywire from wahounds would prevent mech as anti everything protoss as it is right now. New protoss units have no effect
Also to note that terran ground AA is limited to marines. While probably the best AA in the game, late game marines have too low of HP which very die fast thus causing the problem of T having a weak end game. They need marines, but marines don't fare as well late game as the end game units of other races. For a stronger late game T, they can eventually replace marines with warhounds.
Also for ground AA
Protoss: stalker, archon, sentry
Zerg: queen, hydra, infested terran
Terran: marine, autoturret, thor
Turrets are so rarely seen and marines end up being the main AA for terran, yet are an inflated food supply much like a zerg army maxed on roaches seem like a high food count army, but do much less than you would expect. Swap out the thor in that list and put warhound in and you have a better late game ground AA that doesnt die in 1 hit and isnt dreadfully slow
EDIT: Reader solutions from the change added here so more people will see it
DeadWombat
The Thor was originally billed to be a "tip of the spear" unit anyway, which is ironically what the Warhound is doing now. Giving the Thor the Haywire would really let it fulfill the intended function that it originally had. I am rather certain no one would miss the Thor's 250mm cannons, either. Fun idea but it was never really able to be utilized that well.
So if the Thor loses the cannons (and its energy), that would leave High Templar with one less thing to counter as well, making Thors even MORE viable against protoss.
Laowai
Protoss and Terran players with the skill to outposition the thor user and target-fire it down before it can do much damage will force thor users in higher leagues to turn off autocast and spend their haywire missiles on high-priority units, like siege tanks or colossi. This micro would not be required at a lower level, but would add depth to the game... for better players than me, anyway.
Another issue it would fix is one that was actually brought up in the early design stages of HotS, and the reason the warhound was conceptualized in the first place: Thors are pretty bad against mutalisks. Two warhounds are less magic-boxable than one thor, on top of being smaller and more mobile. Their speed would also make them very useful against the new-and-improved air harass from Protoss, leading to small-army map control battles away from the deathball.
Tl;dr: Give thors haywire, warhounds anti air
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Someone just needs to take away your power to make threads
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Northern Ireland25924 Posts
On September 12 2012 08:05 Paradise` wrote:
Someone just needs to take away your power to make threads
..........
Why even bother posting that? The OP may be something you entirely disagree with but it's a discussion worth having and was pretty reasonable in tone.
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With that much health, dps and speed the warhound definitely should have been designed as a melee unit.
The fact that they gave such a unit more range than any of the other non siege unit makes the warhound a deathball unit that just replaces everything.
Why make tanks, thors, helions or marauders, if you can have a unit that has more health per cost, more dps per cost, more speed, and more range (except for sieged tanks).
Thats the reason why warhounds win against everything in that unit tester video.
Since they are faster and have more range, micro would even add to that opness.
Blizzard fails at making basic design choices and thats why we get stupid units like the colossus, roach, marauder and now the warhound.
Units that have a lot of splash and range, need to be slower than other units otherwise you get the colossus and are forced to give it a hard counter drawback like being susceptible to air attack, which negates the unit and makes for a boring game.
Same thing with roaches.
They just took hydras, buffed their health and armor and speed and thereby basically removed hydras from the game.
They were on to something when roaches still had range 3, were 1 supply, had more armor and had more life regen, but instead of keeping that design and making it an interesting unit, they made it the better generic ranged unit.
If they had given roaches something like 1 range and built upon the life regen aspect with armor, their roles woukdnt have overlapped so much with hydras, making for a better designed unit.
The only way to explain why these basic design flaws are in the game is that blizzard is incompetent, and given their recent titles and how badly they are designed, im honestly believing that they just suck.
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guys I have an idea.
let's make warhounds a melee unit that can only hit air (and colossus) bonus to light and massive
special ability howl of courage (get it? hound?) that increase friendly units' current HP by 50% of their max HP. Expires after 15 second, 60 second cool down. Not stackable.
also increases its speed to 4 and decreases its hp to 75 and armor to 0, supply to 1. costs 90/75/30sec
that'll be pretty interesting.
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So... any bets on whether the warhound will come back???
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EPT
