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Northern Ireland26242 Posts
On September 08 2012 03:03 Odinsphere wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 05:59 Hider wrote:
Your missing the point. Fuck balance. Fuck whether the warhound is OP or not.
What matters is the design of the unit (and I am not talking about the appearance). And its absolutely terrible. Warhound will never be an interesting unit, just like the collosus never will be, and the roach never will be.
As a terran player I want to switch race. Why don't you interpolate this? I'm tired of reading "its a terrible design". What the hell does this mean? It was supposed to be an anti mech unit but apparently its normal attack seems a little overpowered. You make units interesting by what you do with them. How you use them with the rest of your army makes it interesting. 1a is never interesting, but lets not pretend like protoss and zerg never had similar units.
There are 16 pages or so of this thread, read the posts, there's PLENTY there discussing the design aspects people are unhappy with.
Protoss and Zerg players, or at least the majority of ones I've heard from would rather have less A-move centric armies and more ways to make their mechanics and control shine. It's not as if everyone just wants to turtle, chrono to 3/3 and A-move to victory, we want to feel we've earned wins in good back-and-forth games. Giving Terran A-move compositions is a fucking terrible idea for longevity of the game, especially as an E-sport.
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On September 08 2012 09:59 Wombat_NI wrote:
There are 16 pages or so of this thread, read the posts, there's PLENTY there discussing the design aspects people are unhappy with.
Protoss and Zerg players, or at least the majority of ones I've heard from would rather have less A-move centric armies and more ways to make their mechanics and control shine. It's not as if everyone just wants to turtle, chrono to 3/3 and A-move to victory, we want to feel we've earned wins in good back-and-forth games. Giving Terran A-move compositions is a fucking terrible idea for longevity of the game, especially as an E-sport.
Yea, its obviously about balance though, which the guy I responded to said "fuck balance" and that its just the design of the unit that was messed up. I've read the posts. All the dream theories and nerfs for it. Everything from somewhat sensible changes to downright "give it a harpoon to latch onto air units and then kamikaze". I wanted to know if it wasn't about balance then why are these changes are being proposed?
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On September 08 2012 03:02 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 23:59 FortMonty wrote:
Pheonix can pick up Warhounds yes.
I don't know, I personally like the design of the Warhound simply because it DOES branch off from the common "mech is slow" standard that has been set. I'd like to be more agile with my mech, ya know, have something to compliment my Helions when rolling around, so that maybe I'm not just doing a harass, I'm actually pushing with the helions and a warhound, I do agree the warhound needs a buff, I like the idea of making it light and giving it 125 HP, while also making it 3 supply, that sounds like a good idea to me. That's the point of mech. You want mech to be the same as bio....except better. That's stupid. You think they need a buff? Are we playing the same beta? You'r esupposed to be harrassing with hellions while building up a huge deathball mech army in your base made of thors and tanks. That's mech style. If you want an agile army you go bio. You shouldn't get both in one.
Have you been paying attention? I think it needs to be nerfed, but still serve the same function of being strong against immortals and being a mobile mech unit. You guys have this issue where you feel that mech NEEDS to be slow chess like, sorry, but this isn't brood war. So yes, Warhound needs a nerf, but it's function, I think it's fine how it is in terms of it's role. No, it won't be bio, sorry, but that arguement is getting old, if you don't know what bio is then I'm sorry, I just can't keep explaining.
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Northern Ireland26242 Posts
On September 08 2012 12:21 Odinsphere wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 09:59 Wombat_NI wrote:
There are 16 pages or so of this thread, read the posts, there's PLENTY there discussing the design aspects people are unhappy with.
Protoss and Zerg players, or at least the majority of ones I've heard from would rather have less A-move centric armies and more ways to make their mechanics and control shine. It's not as if everyone just wants to turtle, chrono to 3/3 and A-move to victory, we want to feel we've earned wins in good back-and-forth games. Giving Terran A-move compositions is a fucking terrible idea for longevity of the game, especially as an E-sport. Yea, its obviously about balance though, which the guy I responded to said "fuck balance" and that its just the design of the unit that was messed up. I've read the posts. All the dream theories and nerfs for it. Everything from somewhat sensible changes to downright "give it a harpoon to latch onto air units and then kamikaze". I wanted to know if it wasn't about balance then why are these changes are being proposed?
I'm not actually 100% sure what you're asking, so if I'm wrong apologies. Why nerf/tweak a unit that is broken from a design perspective in the first place? People, myself included were hating the unit long, long before the Beta actually started with the subsequent Warhound dominance. As this guy put it:
The Famous 'In Defence of Mech' Post
Ever since it was revealed people have loathed the unit, close to en-masse. I don't think even the Collosus has been as universally disliked by this community. 'A-move units', even if statistically balanced also tend to not scale well with good control either. Units like the Collosus, Warhound et al do not appreciably improve in the hands of a pro over the hands of a scrub. Other stock units are ostensibly A-move units (in that they don't have special abilities, but they have a good bit of micro potential, be they the marine, the stalker in early game (or later with blink) mutalisks, even banes.
All this as well after the public desire was made by the development team claimed to want to break up deathballs, but instead have just given Terran one. It's really not people flying off the handle over nothing.
Mech to be viable in TvP doesn't even really need its own anti-mech unit to kill immortals, being that it's upgraded chargelots that are the primary cause of pain. Battle hellions/tanks deal with those chargelot-centric compositions pretty well.
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On September 08 2012 12:21 Odinsphere wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 09:59 Wombat_NI wrote:
There are 16 pages or so of this thread, read the posts, there's PLENTY there discussing the design aspects people are unhappy with.
Protoss and Zerg players, or at least the majority of ones I've heard from would rather have less A-move centric armies and more ways to make their mechanics and control shine. It's not as if everyone just wants to turtle, chrono to 3/3 and A-move to victory, we want to feel we've earned wins in good back-and-forth games. Giving Terran A-move compositions is a fucking terrible idea for longevity of the game, especially as an E-sport. Yea, its obviously about balance though, which the guy I responded to said "fuck balance" and that its just the design of the unit that was messed up. I've read the posts. All the dream theories and nerfs for it. Everything from somewhat sensible changes to downright "give it a harpoon to latch onto air units and then kamikaze". I wanted to know if it wasn't about balance then why are these changes are being proposed?
Because the unit is just stupid, it makes the siege tank obsolete on par with the carrier; it is just a marauder made from the factory.
It has nothing to do with balance, its just a shitty unit that should not be in the game. It makes Terran not fun to play.
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Northern Ireland26242 Posts
On September 08 2012 12:51 FortMonty wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 03:02 Infernal_dream wrote:On September 07 2012 23:59 FortMonty wrote:
Pheonix can pick up Warhounds yes.
I don't know, I personally like the design of the Warhound simply because it DOES branch off from the common "mech is slow" standard that has been set. I'd like to be more agile with my mech, ya know, have something to compliment my Helions when rolling around, so that maybe I'm not just doing a harass, I'm actually pushing with the helions and a warhound, I do agree the warhound needs a buff, I like the idea of making it light and giving it 125 HP, while also making it 3 supply, that sounds like a good idea to me. That's the point of mech. You want mech to be the same as bio....except better. That's stupid. You think they need a buff? Are we playing the same beta? You'r esupposed to be harrassing with hellions while building up a huge deathball mech army in your base made of thors and tanks. That's mech style. If you want an agile army you go bio. You shouldn't get both in one. Have you been paying attention? I think it needs to be nerfed, but still serve the same function of being strong against immortals and being a mobile mech unit. You guys have this issue where you feel that mech NEEDS to be slow chess like, sorry, but this isn't brood war. So yes, Warhound needs a nerf, but it's function, I think it's fine how it is in terms of it's role. No, it won't be bio, sorry, but that arguement is getting old, if you don't know what bio is then I'm sorry, I just can't keep explaining.
What is the point you're making? Mech doesn't need a mobile unit, nor does this game need more units that specifically counter other units. It should be at the stage where we are moving to diverse and balanced compositions that reward positioning and other skillful aspects of play. Not 'I made more of a counter-unit'. We already see the downsides of this in TvP and TvZ with techswitches, vikings are needed to counter Collosus and Broodlord comps. If you beat that threat those two races can techswitch to leave you with a lot of paperweight vikings doing nothing. That's not strategy, it's not intelligent play it's just glorified rock vs scissors.
If you want every single composition to be functionally and aesthetically close-to-identical then that's your perogative. Not everybody who desires something different is a Broodwar fanboy.
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I wonder if the Blizzard devs are even reading these forums, I hope so... if not, then it maybe worth raising some of these points on the Blizzard HOTS beta forum.
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OP is one of the best game design suggestions I've seen on here.
Turning the Warhoud into a transforming, position-based anti-air tank support role is brilliant.
When in melee mode - get rid of the legs. Put it on treads rolling, have it swivel when turning to fire. This gets rid of that dorky walk it has currently and gives it a classic "Robbie the Robot" look.
When transforming to support tank lines, it leans down on it's forearms and lifts anti-air turrets from it's back. When supported by Widow Mines and other units, this gives fun dynamic positional play to Terran.
Tweak stats and upgrades to balance. Done.
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Northern Ireland26242 Posts
On September 08 2012 13:03 Aetherial wrote:
I wonder if the Blizzard devs are even reading these forums, I hope so... if not, then it maybe worth raising some of these points on the Blizzard HOTS beta forum.
It's worth a go, but only go to post. Don't attempt to read too much or your brain will liquify and start to ooze out of your ears.
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On September 08 2012 13:04 Von wrote:
OP is one of the best game design suggestions I've seen on here.
Turning the Warhoud into a transforming, position-based anti-air tank support role is brilliant.
When in melee mode - get rid of the legs. Put it on treads rolling, have it swivel when turning to fire. This gets rid of that dorky walk it has currently and gives it a classic "Robbie the Robot" look.
When transforming to support tank lines, it leans down on it's forearms and lifts anti-air turrets from it's back. When supported by Widow Mines and other units, this gives fun dynamic positional play to Terran.
Tweak stats and upgrades to balance. Done.
FUCK TRANSFORMING, terran has way too much stupid pointless transforming stuff... Don't add to it FFS
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SC2 doesn't need a Goliath. The Thor already fulfill that role and it's a better unit overall (It's big, slow, which makes positioning really importantt and its splash AA promote cool things like Magic Boxing). Vikings fulfill it even better. In all BW Mech, it's the most dumb unit, it's just an AA counter. You have to micro it, (but you have to micro anything in BW tbh) and that wouldn't be transfered to SC2. In SC2, the goliath would be just a dumb AA hard counter. And i'm tired of hard counters in this game.
Please, stop sayin' "i want an AA unit". This only reveals that you know nothing about the issues of Mech in SC2. An AA unit wouldn't make Mech viable in PvT. It just don't adress its real problems (Immortal, Chargelots, Blinkstalkers, and they don't fly if i remember correctly). It's just a bunch of BW nostalgia mixed with Blizzard hate.
It's disgusting to read.
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I agree with Avilo, warhound is plain and boring, and we or at least i don't like that (it also feels so c&c-ih or is it just me? -,.-). Anyway the change would be really good in my opinion, it would add depth to the unit not just "a-move" role.
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For Design, I think it is a good idea for warhound to be something similar to the A.R.E.S. Tanks are vehicle, thors are mech walker and Warhound could fulfill a tank tread mech unit.
![[image loading]](http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100901192458/starcraft/images/thumb/0/07/ARES_SC2_Game1.jpg/200px-ARES_SC2_Game1.jpg)
I hope they are looking to fix warhound completely, right now it is not interesting too watch at all, it looks ugly, the function is not dynamic....
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I feel as though adding an anti-air siege tank would be rather runderwhelming. I also feel as though the Thor was an attempt at this. A slow moving meat shield with a Valkyrie esque attack and powerful ground attacks. Mech to me mis all about positioning, not simply because siege tanks are immobile in siege mode but because the army is slow. Warhounds don't really have that disadvantage. How would they feel if they were slower? I can't help but look at things from a bit of a K.I.S.S perspective. the simple solution is often the best one. Thoughts?
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Honestly i was just throwing out an idea lol. The warhound doesn't seem OP right now at all to be honest, it's the first three days, they slightly nerfed it's attack speed which is good.
People already figured out you simply can't be greedy as hell now. Honestly instead of the idea i put in this thread about AA, they should combine the warhound and the mine, sorta like how vultures lay mines, then there would be more depth. Not to mention the widow mine feels like it's terrible right now :D
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On September 08 2012 16:33 LuminousWoe wrote:
I feel as though adding an anti-air siege tank would be rather runderwhelming. I also feel as though the Thor was an attempt at this. A slow moving meat shield with a Valkyrie esque attack and powerful ground attacks. Mech to me mis all about positioning, not simply because siege tanks are immobile in siege mode but because the army is slow. Warhounds don't really have that disadvantage. How would they feel if they were slower? I can't help but look at things from a bit of a K.I.S.S perspective. the simple solution is often the best one. Thoughts?
I am a terran player myself and I too think mech should be a slow but powerful army. Adding warhound into the mix is cheat/lazy way to fix mech in TvP. No one will go tanks, or thors in TvP because blizzard simply just add a new unit. Blizzard didn't fix mech.
And the new mech is not slow at all compare to bio force.
Again, mech should feel slow but powerful.
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Even though the warhound is nerfed now, I still really dislike that it's just an a-move unit that is still strong enough to replace tanks. IMHO reduce their base damage even further and reduce their gas cost, so that they become simply anti-mech-focused meat-shields for tanks (while battle helions are anti-bio meat-shields for tanks) and so that warhounds don't take up gas that is needed for tanks.
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i am sick of dustin browders red alert units. collossus, warhound, immortal, tempest does not suit the game. they don't require micro they only require positioning. we didn't play starcraft 1 like this. there were awesome units like reaver. i think we should increase our voice.
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Still watching more hots today and still more good ol' Hound vs Hound match up. Was this Browder way of fixing the "stale tvt"?.Anyways I like the idea Avilo proposed about transforming warhound into a rolling/transforming anti-air unit....you know what fuck it BRING BACK THE GOLIATH and get rid of the big fat thor. lol honestly why create these semi bw esque units and then make them so terrible. Sorry just ranting again on =/..
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When I look at Blizzard's sc2 past, I can conclude that they are too proud to change the warhound. MAYBE if we are lucky we get a new spell on it, but they will never rework it completely.
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EPT
