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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
The problem with "moral panic" over any subject is how easy it is to become a mindless member of a witch-hunting mob. The virtuous defenders of fairness (in this case, people opposed to hacking) see any person asking for a more balanced trial as accomplices of the first offenders, or as persons of dubious morality. Several people have insinuated, here and in reddit, that Nerchio is a hacker because he defended Spades. The three last pages only talk about the identity of toiletcat. Frankly, who cares? The only problem is you get so much shit when you ask for less bias on these kind of public trials, that less and less people will make a stance for the defendants side. Even if a pro is not convinced about the evidence, is he going to come here as Nerchio just to get shit thrown at him? Or is he going to ride the wave as a cheap politician as Catz did?
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On June 07 2012 21:01 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:53 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:46 Apollonius wrote:On June 07 2012 20:39 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:36 Flyingcookie wrote:This Thread shows why the all relevant Data Serverside in League of Legends development was a good decision btt: On June 07 2012 20:22 toiletCAT wrote:And how is that relevant? It's not obvious that Spades is hacking, we've proved you wrong. When will you give up? Read the last 100 pages, we've literally debunked every single evidence you've presented. Every single piece of evidence. Your remaining arguments is "omg, toiletcat iz teh trollz!! he iz probably spades?!!!" What? After reading almost all and watching the replay the possibility that he hacked is way higher than that he don't. Of course there CAN'T BE 100% evidence but the sum in the games and statements make it really clear thats very, very likely! Exactly! The only thing that has been debunked is methods of proof. There has been no convincing Evidence that he didn't hack either and no good explanations for the strange decisions he makes in the game. If you watched the replays they immediately ring alarm bells. I'm not saying he's 100% hacking but absolutely this should be continued to be looked at. You're telling people to give up toilet when there's less evidence for your side. You're Completely hypocritical It's not what side has less evidence that should win. Regardless of whether convincing evidence can be found that he is innocent, he will be innocent until proven guilty - I'm not saying we should drop the issue, but we're supposed to keep an open mind. It seems that people like you have already made up your mind, and are starting to use ad hominem attacks on other people (like toiletCAT and Spades) rather than addressing the issue at hand. And btw, you're someone who'd probably like a due process of law if you'd committed murder. You'd probably not want people to say, "Well, he could have done it, lets put him on deathrow" - well, that's essentially what happened to Spades career in the last couple of days. Yeah. And people like you are the true hypocrites. We, as accusers, must have all the burden of proof. I think you gravely misunderstand what I was saying. Toiletcat told me to give up, when his arguement was no better. I'm not sure how that makes me a hypocrit. There is no reason that people who believe he is hacking should give up, and no reason for the defense to give up either I give up because of the amount of idiots posting in this thread, to be honest. I don't care about Spades, or what happens to him. It's sad to see that after all the work that has been put into debunking the evidence, which is in everyone's interest, is being ignored by comments that 300 pages later say "herp derp, he's sending a Medivac to a base, he had not spotted!! hackzuuu obviousuuuu!!!" Even us "defenders" are on your side. You think we're defending Spades, when in reality we want him judged as much as you do. If he's a hacker, then damn right, he deserves his career ruined. But it's not wrong of us to take a step back and wait for further notice, in case we don't want to jump to conclusions, like many others do.
Have you watched the replays? They deserve scrutiny beyond doubt, you've been very obviously biased this whole time no matter how much you claim you don't care about spades
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On June 07 2012 20:37 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:35 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:33 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:31 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:29 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:24 Integra wrote:On June 07 2012 20:18 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:07 zefreak wrote:On June 07 2012 19:40 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 19:37 zefreak wrote:
[quote]
Hah, he has literally 0 chance of making it out of open bracket, hacker or not.
Actually, he has 0 chance of making it out even if he was allowed to hack. It's also completely irrelevant to the thread, because we've debunked all evidence that suggests he's hacking. lol, believe what you want. You aren't a defender of justice and due process, just a troll/fan/Spades. Lot's of supposed evidence was indeed debunked, mostly the attempted technical proofs. That's to be expected, as there isn't really a known way to prove hacking if the user isn't stupid enough to use blink hacks or similar things. There are still LOADS of suspicious behaviors. Yeah, I'm a troll because I don't jump onto the "well, there's no evidence but we think he's hacking"-bandwagon. we never said that you were a troll cause of that you don't agree, the reason is cause you seem to post in all Spades related threads 24 hours a day LOL. How the hell do you have time to make 76 posts a day? it's freaking insane, don't you get bored? I mean there are only so many variations you can type " not enough evidence". Do you get payed by the hour? If yes then I bet people here will pay you even more if you stopped! lol. Let's see if you can get your daily post count up to a 100! I can post where ever I want, man. And trust me, I'm really, really tired of this, I mean really. The only people left in this are people like you who likes to accuse others of being trolls or Spades himself, which is ridiculous. I honestly can't take your "funny comments" seriously, because your only purpose is to spread the hate from one person onto another. So yeah, who are you really? You're only allowed one account on tl Had a TL account over a year ago, but I forgot it. My IP should confirm this, so I'm not really intimidated by all those "omg smurfz!! 77cry" comments. I don't think anyone is trying to intimidate you. Your actions are just extremely strange. Do they even sell starcraft 2 in qatar? I'm from Denmark, lol. And why is it strange that I refuse to say that he's a hacker, when we don't have proof?
If you're honest, then the explanation is simple: you don't understand anything about sc2. A player not looking at the fog of war a single time during a full series is maphacking. Plain and simple. But you're either trolling or unable to understand that.
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On June 07 2012 21:03 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 21:01 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:53 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:46 Apollonius wrote:On June 07 2012 20:39 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:36 Flyingcookie wrote:This Thread shows why the all relevant Data Serverside in League of Legends development was a good decision btt: On June 07 2012 20:22 toiletCAT wrote:And how is that relevant? It's not obvious that Spades is hacking, we've proved you wrong. When will you give up? Read the last 100 pages, we've literally debunked every single evidence you've presented. Every single piece of evidence. Your remaining arguments is "omg, toiletcat iz teh trollz!! he iz probably spades?!!!" What? After reading almost all and watching the replay the possibility that he hacked is way higher than that he don't. Of course there CAN'T BE 100% evidence but the sum in the games and statements make it really clear thats very, very likely! Exactly! The only thing that has been debunked is methods of proof. There has been no convincing Evidence that he didn't hack either and no good explanations for the strange decisions he makes in the game. If you watched the replays they immediately ring alarm bells. I'm not saying he's 100% hacking but absolutely this should be continued to be looked at. You're telling people to give up toilet when there's less evidence for your side. You're Completely hypocritical It's not what side has less evidence that should win. Regardless of whether convincing evidence can be found that he is innocent, he will be innocent until proven guilty - I'm not saying we should drop the issue, but we're supposed to keep an open mind. It seems that people like you have already made up your mind, and are starting to use ad hominem attacks on other people (like toiletCAT and Spades) rather than addressing the issue at hand. And btw, you're someone who'd probably like a due process of law if you'd committed murder. You'd probably not want people to say, "Well, he could have done it, lets put him on deathrow" - well, that's essentially what happened to Spades career in the last couple of days. Yeah. And people like you are the true hypocrites. We, as accusers, must have all the burden of proof. I think you gravely misunderstand what I was saying. Toiletcat told me to give up, when his arguement was no better. I'm not sure how that makes me a hypocrit. There is no reason that people who believe he is hacking should give up, and no reason for the defense to give up either I give up because of the amount of idiots posting in this thread, to be honest. I don't care about Spades, or what happens to him. It's sad to see that after all the work that has been put into debunking the evidence, which is in everyone's interest, is being ignored by comments that 300 pages later say "herp derp, he's sending a Medivac to a base, he had not spotted!! hackzuuu obviousuuuu!!!" Even us "defenders" are on your side. You think we're defending Spades, when in reality we want him judged as much as you do. If he's a hacker, then damn right, he deserves his career ruined. But it's not wrong of us to take a step back and wait for further notice, in case we don't want to jump to conclusions, like many others do. Then stop acting like the discussion is over and we should all go away when a tentative proof is found unreliable!
'when will you give up?'
'WE'VE debunked every single peice of evidence YOU'VE made'
' I don't care about spades'
....
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On June 07 2012 21:05 SolidMustard wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:37 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:35 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:33 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:31 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:29 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:24 Integra wrote:On June 07 2012 20:18 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:07 zefreak wrote:On June 07 2012 19:40 toiletCAT wrote:
[quote]
It's also completely irrelevant to the thread, because we've debunked all evidence that suggests he's hacking. lol, believe what you want. You aren't a defender of justice and due process, just a troll/fan/Spades. Lot's of supposed evidence was indeed debunked, mostly the attempted technical proofs. That's to be expected, as there isn't really a known way to prove hacking if the user isn't stupid enough to use blink hacks or similar things. There are still LOADS of suspicious behaviors. Yeah, I'm a troll because I don't jump onto the "well, there's no evidence but we think he's hacking"-bandwagon. we never said that you were a troll cause of that you don't agree, the reason is cause you seem to post in all Spades related threads 24 hours a day LOL. How the hell do you have time to make 76 posts a day? it's freaking insane, don't you get bored? I mean there are only so many variations you can type " not enough evidence". Do you get payed by the hour? If yes then I bet people here will pay you even more if you stopped! lol. Let's see if you can get your daily post count up to a 100! I can post where ever I want, man. And trust me, I'm really, really tired of this, I mean really. The only people left in this are people like you who likes to accuse others of being trolls or Spades himself, which is ridiculous. I honestly can't take your "funny comments" seriously, because your only purpose is to spread the hate from one person onto another. So yeah, who are you really? You're only allowed one account on tl Had a TL account over a year ago, but I forgot it. My IP should confirm this, so I'm not really intimidated by all those "omg smurfz!! 77cry" comments. I don't think anyone is trying to intimidate you. Your actions are just extremely strange. Do they even sell starcraft 2 in qatar? I'm from Denmark, lol. And why is it strange that I refuse to say that he's a hacker, when we don't have proof? If you're honest, then the explanation is simple: you don't understand anything about sc2. A player not looking at the fog of war a single time during a full series is maphacking. Plain and simple. But you're either trolling or unable to understand that.
That's a great argument, well done!
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On June 07 2012 20:51 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:50 starcraft911 wrote:On June 07 2012 20:48 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:46 ZenithM wrote:On June 07 2012 20:35 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:31 ZenithM wrote:
I've spotted this toilet guy basically since its first post (something about peace on the earth). Since then he's been defending Spades no matter what. Very touching.
I gotta admit that for now nobody has found anything 100% hackish. Kinda weird considering all that's been investigated. I'm not defending Spades, again, I'll repeat myself for you; I don't care about Spades, if he's a hacker, then fuck him, if not, I think it's only fair that we don't jump to conclusions, which has been my stance in this from the beginning. Please stop contradicting my initial statements. Did you find an explanation about the huge discrepancies in mechanics (especially regarding handling the fog of war) that Spades displays in his ladder games and during the showmatch with LucifroN. If you want something stronger than that, Spades is probably innocent for all eternity and is free to map hack to his heart's content... Do you think he would use something as obvious as a blink hack like a Protoss GM wannabe? He's not that dumb, of course he will have used something relatively well concealed. Yup, we did. Page 200-275. Yes, I do, because that would be proof, and I would then be okay with saying that he's a hacker. His not looking at the fog is proof he hacks just as his failure to click enemy units in the past was proof. He's a hacker. If you're not going to read the thread, then I don't know what to tell you.
Ok, toiletCAT, can you summarize for me the main counter-argument in the pages 200-275 as to why Spades' behavior with fog of war is not weird during the showmatch? What I read didn't convince me at all.
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On June 07 2012 21:05 SolidMustard wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:37 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:35 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:33 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:31 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:29 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:24 Integra wrote:On June 07 2012 20:18 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:07 zefreak wrote:On June 07 2012 19:40 toiletCAT wrote:
[quote]
It's also completely irrelevant to the thread, because we've debunked all evidence that suggests he's hacking. lol, believe what you want. You aren't a defender of justice and due process, just a troll/fan/Spades. Lot's of supposed evidence was indeed debunked, mostly the attempted technical proofs. That's to be expected, as there isn't really a known way to prove hacking if the user isn't stupid enough to use blink hacks or similar things. There are still LOADS of suspicious behaviors. Yeah, I'm a troll because I don't jump onto the "well, there's no evidence but we think he's hacking"-bandwagon. we never said that you were a troll cause of that you don't agree, the reason is cause you seem to post in all Spades related threads 24 hours a day LOL. How the hell do you have time to make 76 posts a day? it's freaking insane, don't you get bored? I mean there are only so many variations you can type " not enough evidence". Do you get payed by the hour? If yes then I bet people here will pay you even more if you stopped! lol. Let's see if you can get your daily post count up to a 100! I can post where ever I want, man. And trust me, I'm really, really tired of this, I mean really. The only people left in this are people like you who likes to accuse others of being trolls or Spades himself, which is ridiculous. I honestly can't take your "funny comments" seriously, because your only purpose is to spread the hate from one person onto another. So yeah, who are you really? You're only allowed one account on tl Had a TL account over a year ago, but I forgot it. My IP should confirm this, so I'm not really intimidated by all those "omg smurfz!! 77cry" comments. I don't think anyone is trying to intimidate you. Your actions are just extremely strange. Do they even sell starcraft 2 in qatar? I'm from Denmark, lol. And why is it strange that I refuse to say that he's a hacker, when we don't have proof? If you're honest, then the explanation is simple: you don't understand anything about sc2. A player not looking at the fog of war a single time during a full series is maphacking. Plain and simple. But you're either trolling or unable to understand that.
We agree with you, everyone agrees with you there.
It's just that Spades said he does everything on the minimap, so we don't want to convict an innocent player. He is clearly a maphacker, but before he gets obliterated at a pro level of play in a no-hack zone then I don't want to say for 110% sure Spades is a maphacker.
Although I am already 100% convinced from previous comparisons to his hack and no-hack play.
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On June 07 2012 21:08 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 21:03 zefreak wrote:On June 07 2012 21:01 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:53 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:46 Apollonius wrote:On June 07 2012 20:39 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:36 Flyingcookie wrote:This Thread shows why the all relevant Data Serverside in League of Legends development was a good decision btt: On June 07 2012 20:22 toiletCAT wrote:And how is that relevant? It's not obvious that Spades is hacking, we've proved you wrong. When will you give up? Read the last 100 pages, we've literally debunked every single evidence you've presented. Every single piece of evidence. Your remaining arguments is "omg, toiletcat iz teh trollz!! he iz probably spades?!!!" What? After reading almost all and watching the replay the possibility that he hacked is way higher than that he don't. Of course there CAN'T BE 100% evidence but the sum in the games and statements make it really clear thats very, very likely! Exactly! The only thing that has been debunked is methods of proof. There has been no convincing Evidence that he didn't hack either and no good explanations for the strange decisions he makes in the game. If you watched the replays they immediately ring alarm bells. I'm not saying he's 100% hacking but absolutely this should be continued to be looked at. You're telling people to give up toilet when there's less evidence for your side. You're Completely hypocritical It's not what side has less evidence that should win. Regardless of whether convincing evidence can be found that he is innocent, he will be innocent until proven guilty - I'm not saying we should drop the issue, but we're supposed to keep an open mind. It seems that people like you have already made up your mind, and are starting to use ad hominem attacks on other people (like toiletCAT and Spades) rather than addressing the issue at hand. And btw, you're someone who'd probably like a due process of law if you'd committed murder. You'd probably not want people to say, "Well, he could have done it, lets put him on deathrow" - well, that's essentially what happened to Spades career in the last couple of days. Yeah. And people like you are the true hypocrites. We, as accusers, must have all the burden of proof. I think you gravely misunderstand what I was saying. Toiletcat told me to give up, when his arguement was no better. I'm not sure how that makes me a hypocrit. There is no reason that people who believe he is hacking should give up, and no reason for the defense to give up either I give up because of the amount of idiots posting in this thread, to be honest. I don't care about Spades, or what happens to him. It's sad to see that after all the work that has been put into debunking the evidence, which is in everyone's interest, is being ignored by comments that 300 pages later say "herp derp, he's sending a Medivac to a base, he had not spotted!! hackzuuu obviousuuuu!!!" Even us "defenders" are on your side. You think we're defending Spades, when in reality we want him judged as much as you do. If he's a hacker, then damn right, he deserves his career ruined. But it's not wrong of us to take a step back and wait for further notice, in case we don't want to jump to conclusions, like many others do. Then stop acting like the discussion is over and we should all go away when a tentative proof is found unreliable! 'when will you give up?' 'WE'VE debunked every single peice of evidence YOU'VE made' ' I don't care about spades' ....
Way to take the things out of context.
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On June 07 2012 21:01 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:59 Neurosis wrote:On June 07 2012 20:54 Apollonius wrote:On June 07 2012 20:49 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:45 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:41 Apollonius wrote:On June 07 2012 20:35 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:33 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:31 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:29 toiletCAT wrote:
[quote]
I can post where ever I want, man. And trust me, I'm really, really tired of this, I mean really. The only people left in this are people like you who likes to accuse others of being trolls or Spades himself, which is ridiculous. I honestly can't take your "funny comments" seriously, because your only purpose is to spread the hate from one person onto another. So yeah, who are you really? You're only allowed one account on tl Had a TL account over a year ago, but I forgot it. My IP should confirm this, so I'm not really intimidated by all those "omg smurfz!! 77cry" comments. I don't think anyone is trying to intimidate you. Your actions are just extremely strange. Do they even sell starcraft 2 in qatar? His actions are in no way strange. As someone on this page mentioned, no amount of smoke adds up to a fire. I detest maphackers, and they remove validity from a game that I love, but having a bunch of "suspicious actions" is not enough to burn one's entire way of life and occupational success. Regardless of who toiletCAT is, we can't just crucify another person. This isn't supposed to be a witchhunt, but a clear proof. The fact that even one pro was willing to protect Spades should force us to wait for a conclusive proof. Not saying he's innocent, but there's always a chance. Think how unfair this would be for Spades if the 1-5% chance that he is not hacking turned out to be true. Think about how you'd feel if your job got defamed and you suddenly lost your ability to make money based on inconclusive evidence that a mob of (mainly) inferior players believe is "likely." Then consider talking about this with a clear head. I agree with all of this for the record, I think you might have my posts and others mixed up a bit in the last few pages Edit: didn't read properly, I agree with everything except the random hypocritical keyboard warrior that is toiletcat How am I hypocritical? Rofl. Guys, lets not worry about other people in this thread. For all real significance, it doesn't matter if Spades or another pro or even some random Joe makes the comments that toiletCAT did. It's the idea that matters. We need to worry about the state of the community when someone in good standing can have his entire job torn down around him in the matter of a few days even if we never had complete proof that he's a cheater. We may have a high suggestion, and suspicious actions make it seem obvious, sure, but let's give him every last chance we can get and be rigorous. Let's not get sidetracked over who's making the points, people. Focus on what we've done, and what we should have done. If I were a sponsor, right now I'd be shivering not just because of Spades, but because of the community's ferocity. I'd be scared to invest in a player now. This is someone that has resorted to cheating in the past. You make it sound like this is a completely innocent player that has absolutely no reason to be receiving such scrutiny. And once again, finally, how in the world can you watch those replays and not realize something is up. People need to wise up and stop defending a cheater, cheaters have no place in esports. Most of us aren't trying to defend Spades, we're just trying to prove him guilty beyond any possible doubt.  EDIT: ToiletCat beat me to it
Was just about to write the same response ^^ thank you, good sir!
But seriously, I would never support cheating. But Spades has been given a second chance in the Starcraft community - I doubt many of his haters were even interested in SC when he first hacked, but whatever. That's not my place to state.
The community (at some point when it was less vicious than now) decided to give him a second chance. Regardless of whether a robber's been convicting of robbing a bank before, each new trial must be based on purely new evidence. And his career was not failing. People, for the most part, never mentioned the fact that he previously cheated. You know who all else also cheated in the past? HuK, DiMAGA, hell, even Nada did at one point (not in professional tho)
We should look at him with scrutiny, and I agree with your point about the replays. If they were all that we needed, I would have dropped this long ago - it's obvious. But we need a foolproof, scientific way to prove it. Some ideas in this thread have been genius - like minimap coordinates. But lets prove that we are a truly careful and precise community and take the time to prove our suspicions. In game, any amount of luck or star sense could have happened. Hell, in half of the pro games of SC1 it seems like one player's hacking because of how awesome their star sense is.
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In multiple games during a bo7 though? AND he happens to have history with hacking?
Context is important in these sort of cases where proof is difficult to find. In technical terms, bayesian priors are very important in determining posterior probabilities.
BTW, the forums were not less vicious during the brood war days, have you read the old hacking threads? Or any of Rekrul's posts?
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On June 07 2012 21:09 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:51 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:50 starcraft911 wrote:On June 07 2012 20:48 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:46 ZenithM wrote:On June 07 2012 20:35 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:31 ZenithM wrote:
I've spotted this toilet guy basically since its first post (something about peace on the earth). Since then he's been defending Spades no matter what. Very touching.
I gotta admit that for now nobody has found anything 100% hackish. Kinda weird considering all that's been investigated. I'm not defending Spades, again, I'll repeat myself for you; I don't care about Spades, if he's a hacker, then fuck him, if not, I think it's only fair that we don't jump to conclusions, which has been my stance in this from the beginning. Please stop contradicting my initial statements. Did you find an explanation about the huge discrepancies in mechanics (especially regarding handling the fog of war) that Spades displays in his ladder games and during the showmatch with LucifroN. If you want something stronger than that, Spades is probably innocent for all eternity and is free to map hack to his heart's content... Do you think he would use something as obvious as a blink hack like a Protoss GM wannabe? He's not that dumb, of course he will have used something relatively well concealed. Yup, we did. Page 200-275. Yes, I do, because that would be proof, and I would then be okay with saying that he's a hacker. His not looking at the fog is proof he hacks just as his failure to click enemy units in the past was proof. He's a hacker. If you're not going to read the thread, then I don't know what to tell you. Ok, toiletCAT, can you summarize for me the main counter-argument in the pages 200-275 as to why Spades' behavior with fog of war is not weird during the showmatch? What I read didn't convince me at all.
No, I can't, I'm done here. I'm sorry, but I can't be asked to waste another second on people who finds it necessary to use sarcasm, funny comments and insults in a very friendly and open discussion. I've stood model to a lot by now and a lot of you have reached my limit. + Show Spoiler +
It's been fun, take care. 
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Canada13378 Posts
On June 07 2012 21:10 Apollonius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 21:01 Antylamon wrote:On June 07 2012 20:59 Neurosis wrote:On June 07 2012 20:54 Apollonius wrote:On June 07 2012 20:49 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:45 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:41 Apollonius wrote:On June 07 2012 20:35 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:33 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:31 MateShade wrote:
[quote]
So yeah, who are you really? You're only allowed one account on tl Had a TL account over a year ago, but I forgot it. My IP should confirm this, so I'm not really intimidated by all those "omg smurfz!! 77cry" comments. I don't think anyone is trying to intimidate you. Your actions are just extremely strange. Do they even sell starcraft 2 in qatar? His actions are in no way strange. As someone on this page mentioned, no amount of smoke adds up to a fire. I detest maphackers, and they remove validity from a game that I love, but having a bunch of "suspicious actions" is not enough to burn one's entire way of life and occupational success. Regardless of who toiletCAT is, we can't just crucify another person. This isn't supposed to be a witchhunt, but a clear proof. The fact that even one pro was willing to protect Spades should force us to wait for a conclusive proof. Not saying he's innocent, but there's always a chance. Think how unfair this would be for Spades if the 1-5% chance that he is not hacking turned out to be true. Think about how you'd feel if your job got defamed and you suddenly lost your ability to make money based on inconclusive evidence that a mob of (mainly) inferior players believe is "likely." Then consider talking about this with a clear head. I agree with all of this for the record, I think you might have my posts and others mixed up a bit in the last few pages Edit: didn't read properly, I agree with everything except the random hypocritical keyboard warrior that is toiletcat How am I hypocritical? Rofl. Guys, lets not worry about other people in this thread. For all real significance, it doesn't matter if Spades or another pro or even some random Joe makes the comments that toiletCAT did. It's the idea that matters. We need to worry about the state of the community when someone in good standing can have his entire job torn down around him in the matter of a few days even if we never had complete proof that he's a cheater. We may have a high suggestion, and suspicious actions make it seem obvious, sure, but let's give him every last chance we can get and be rigorous. Let's not get sidetracked over who's making the points, people. Focus on what we've done, and what we should have done. If I were a sponsor, right now I'd be shivering not just because of Spades, but because of the community's ferocity. I'd be scared to invest in a player now. This is someone that has resorted to cheating in the past. You make it sound like this is a completely innocent player that has absolutely no reason to be receiving such scrutiny. And once again, finally, how in the world can you watch those replays and not realize something is up. People need to wise up and stop defending a cheater, cheaters have no place in esports. Most of us aren't trying to defend Spades, we're just trying to prove him guilty beyond any possible doubt. EDIT: ToiletCat beat me to it Was just about to write the same response ^^ thank you, good sir! But seriously, I would never support cheating. But Spades has been given a second chance in the Starcraft community - I doubt many of his haters were even interested in SC when he first hacked, but whatever. That's not my place to state. The community (at some point when it was less vicious than now) decided to give him a second chance. Regardless of whether a robber's been convicting of robbing a bank before, each new trial must be based on purely new evidence. And his career was not failing. People, for the most part, never mentioned the fact that he previously cheated. You know who all else also cheated in the past? HuK, DiMAGA, hell, even Nada did at one point (not in professional tho) We should look at him with scrutiny, and I agree with your point about the replays. If they were all that we needed, I would have dropped this long ago - it's obvious. But we need a foolproof, scientific way to prove it. Some ideas in this thread have been genius - like minimap coordinates. But lets prove that we are a truly careful and precise community and take the time to prove our suspicions. In game, any amount of luck or star sense could have happened. Hell, in half of the pro games of SC1 it seems like one player's hacking because of how awesome their star sense is.
Without a launcher and someone coding antihack scans into it we won't be able to do anything about "foolproof" ways of banning users who hack or knowing exactly who is. Replay files i dont think can give us conclusive evidence one way or another.
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300 pages for Spades. I can't imagine what it would look like if a more successful player was found/accused of hacking.
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On June 07 2012 21:12 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 21:09 ZenithM wrote:On June 07 2012 20:51 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:50 starcraft911 wrote:On June 07 2012 20:48 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:46 ZenithM wrote:On June 07 2012 20:35 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:31 ZenithM wrote:
I've spotted this toilet guy basically since its first post (something about peace on the earth). Since then he's been defending Spades no matter what. Very touching.
I gotta admit that for now nobody has found anything 100% hackish. Kinda weird considering all that's been investigated. I'm not defending Spades, again, I'll repeat myself for you; I don't care about Spades, if he's a hacker, then fuck him, if not, I think it's only fair that we don't jump to conclusions, which has been my stance in this from the beginning. Please stop contradicting my initial statements. Did you find an explanation about the huge discrepancies in mechanics (especially regarding handling the fog of war) that Spades displays in his ladder games and during the showmatch with LucifroN. If you want something stronger than that, Spades is probably innocent for all eternity and is free to map hack to his heart's content... Do you think he would use something as obvious as a blink hack like a Protoss GM wannabe? He's not that dumb, of course he will have used something relatively well concealed. Yup, we did. Page 200-275. Yes, I do, because that would be proof, and I would then be okay with saying that he's a hacker. His not looking at the fog is proof he hacks just as his failure to click enemy units in the past was proof. He's a hacker. If you're not going to read the thread, then I don't know what to tell you. Ok, toiletCAT, can you summarize for me the main counter-argument in the pages 200-275 as to why Spades' behavior with fog of war is not weird during the showmatch? What I read didn't convince me at all. No, I can't, I'm done here. I'm sorry, but I can't be asked to waste another second on people who finds it necessary to use sarcasm, funny comments and insults in a very friendly and open discussion. I've stood model to a lot by now and a lot of you have reached my limit. + Show Spoiler +It's been fun, take care.
That's what I thought. Thank you, and take care.
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On June 07 2012 21:14 babybell wrote:
300 pages for Spades. I can't imagine what it would look like if a more successful player was found/accused of hacking.
Successful players don't need to cheat ^_^
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This thread has gone to shit ... if that was even possible 100 pages ago. Shouldn't mods close this parade already?
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On June 07 2012 15:45 Kitchen.Sink wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 15:20 Bogeyman wrote:On June 07 2012 14:24 figq wrote:On June 07 2012 14:11 Bogeyman wrote:On June 07 2012 13:33 figq wrote:The "precog" case really gets me. Replay here: http://www.sc2-replays.net/en/replays/8460-goldenlight-vs-spades,dual-sightWatch 7:00-7:30 from Spades vision. He doesn't really see anything with the hellions, I don't think he even sees the count of the cocoons at the natural, because in the replay he spends a hell of a lot time in his base again at this crucial scouting moment. He then immediately declares the all-in of his opponent. To me this is much stronger evidence than the rest, because he announces his knowledge verbally, not by actions. Whereby his actions could be just random or lucky and not really a sign of knowledge; here he declares his knowledge. Unless he's used to saying stuff like "all-in / bm" to see how the opponent responds in chat or something, I find it really very difficult to explain, except with some kind of cheat. I hope Spades clarifies later, if possible; to me it makes no sense. It's strange for sure, but if you follow his camera and base everything on that you'll miss some fine details. What I'm referring to is the fact that moving across the map by means of e.g. double-clicking a hotkey or using a screen hotkey takes you there instantly while playing. When following his camera in the replay it takes you a little while to get there. During that split second (it might be 0.5 seconds at most, but I haven't tried measuring) he did have vision of all 6 eggs at the natural before moving his hellions back. Now I agree, it's still weird of him to say what he does. But he could have noticed the eggs and then tries to poke GoldenLight with his comment, to see if he gets any valuable information. And sorry for everyone who gets angry when anyone tries to defend Spades. I am rather certain that Spades has been hacking, but I won't stay silent when I see a possible explanation in his favor. Thanks for the comment! Yeah, the slight difference between how vision looks when played automatically from the replay and when actually in-game may be the crux here. In the replay it really makes it look humanly impossible to count the cocoons, but in reality he might have been able to. Okay. I'm back to undecided then. I've seen the tons of weird fishy stuff, but to me there needs to be really conclusive evidence, otherwise we may very well be cherry-picking and the guy may just have very weird styles of play that make no sense and just as often lead to (deserved) bad outcomes for him, as well. Something like loose-aggressive in poker. Well, since the pace of the thread seems to be slowing down... a lot of people have probably gone to bed. I suppose I should too, but when I get back I could point out another strong argument that people seem to have forgotten. Actually, let's just do this now and let it work while I sleep. It's not new, but it's just as suspicious as it always was. Topic: Seemingly does not care to scout, even when actually scouting. Map: MLG Daybreak 2:51 - Spades' SCV has been idling in Lucifron's main for a few seconds, so Spades' jumps to it and moves it towards the ramp with one click. He then clicks three times a bit more to the left, which if he let it go all the way there would reveal the 2nd geyser, but he doesn't let it get even close as he immediately sends it to a mineral patch in his main. Is he really that concerned with saving the SCV from a potential depot-block? The marine from Lucifron is a bit ahead of Spades' but there's enough time to check the 2nd gas and get out before the marine gets out. Given the timing of his own marine, this is a reasonable assumption. Lucifron would have to be the wizard of Oz to get his marine out fast enough to kill this marine (or just get a stupidly fast barracks, cutting economy). So wth, why not check the 2nd gas? It's fucking vital information and your SCV is right there, ready to scoot over and let you know. Is the gnome back in your head Spades? Map: MLG Entombed Valley ~3.10 - SCV enters Lucifron's base, and exits without Spades looking at it. That's weird right? He proceeds by selecting his SCV once it's far outside of the base and sends it home. He doesn't look at what the SCV scouted even once, during or after the SCV scout. Wtf? Sure, he does see on the minimap that there's one gas, but it's really hard to say if he had vision of the 2nd geyser or not (I can't open the replay anymore for some reason... "The launch of this game makes reference to mod of map dependancies which are no longer available" is the message I get when trying. Weird stuff. Maybe Blizzard is hacking? Anyways...) and him not even trying to have a look at it is odd. In fact, Spades is just starting his own 2nd gas at about that time. Why don't you care if Lucifron does the same? Also, you see two buildings that could be barracks or a barracks and a factory. Why not look? Sure, you don't expect 2 barracks, but not even looking at the intel you have available? Has the gnome in your head taken viagra? He's got balls of steel man. Map: MLG Entombed Valley (vs Theognis) 3:32 - SCV goes up the ramp and walks into Theognis' wall. There's a barracks with a tech-lab visible, and had Spades looked at the right moment he would have seen an SCV moving behind the mineral line at the natural. However he's busy doing stuff in his main at the time. So the SCV keeps going to his last way-point, and Spades wasn't paying attention to see that it got to Theognis' base already. That's pretty sloppy play for a GM-level player, but it could happen. So then you check the ramp to see what was there. Wait what? No, you don't. Spades' gnome doesn't give a shit about what's there. From the minimap there seems to be a building to the right of the barracks, without a (reasonable) doubt an add-on of some kind. What is it? Spades gnome gives zero fucks! Instead he scans at 5:42, a perfect time to reveal that the building starport will get a tech-lab from the barracks. Coincidence? Might be. Still doesn't explain the rationale of a gnome. That's enough, I have to sleep now... fucking 8 AM already... To end on a note regarding the way Spades scouts in these games: What the hell?! Enjoy! I'm out. The scouting was one of several circumstantial things that eventually pushed me over the edge and convinced me that Spades had to be hacking. I can't pretend to know how these hacks work: he may be turning it on and off; he may be using a private hack available to only a select few with sophisticated anti-detection features. I gave up looking for direct evidence of a hack, things like magic scans and minimap clicking, because so few of us know how these hacks work. But, for the love of all that is holy, how in the world can you send an SCV to your opponent's base and never, not even once, check to see what that SCV scouted like Spades did on Entombed Valley? Back when I first started playing the game I was placed in the silver league and I didn't even do that back in silver. Silver. What is the point in sending an SCV if you aren't going to process the information the SCV gathered? He does not check to see if Lucifron had a second gas nor did he check to see what the second building was that was in the process of being built. This is supposed to be a top level NA GM and he doesn't even spend one APM to click a building? He doesn't even bother to steer his SCV to scout a second gas geyser? The scouting in his games is preposterous. For these situations I'm trying (really hard) to give the guy the benefit of being bad.  Maybe he sends SCV to scout and completely forgets about that... But really, the fact that he never during the whole game even checks the buildings in the fog of war that the SCV scouted. It makes the move with the SCV there completely pointless, except that he can tell 1 gas and 2 buildings from the minimap. How is he able to resist looking in the fog to see exactly what those are is beyond any explanation, except some extreme case of absent-mindedness.
But hey, he also doesn't even scout at all in other games, so... that's just another such game with no scouting, in which he forgot he even sent an SCV to scout and back.
EXCEPT... it's a 4p map! And he does select the SCV again, once it's out of the scouted base, and sends it directly home, instead of letting it continue through the other spawn locations. So he obviously didn't forget about that SCV.
Yeah, I guess we could settle on this case being the conclusive one. Even being absent-minded just doesn't fit with that last detail. By the way, credit to CatZ and Co, because they did explain those things in their analysis too. So isn't that it? Shouldn't we close the case on that one?
EDIT: No. (after some more thought) Here are 3 different possible explanations:
1. He intended to view the fog after sending the SCV back home, but he forgot. As we established, he does a lot of such absurd mistakes, and some actually cost him a lot in-game, so it's not like all are beneficial for him.
2. Based on his extensive preparation for opponent's playstyle, all he needed to scout was close spawns.
3. -- || -- , all he needed to confirm is no proxy all-in, which he can tell from gas and 2 in-base buildings on the minimap.
So I guess, the case is still open then...
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Wow wake up and Toiletcat is still trolling this thead. And you all are still biting.
Let me break it down for you why Toiletcat's account should be perma banned and IP blocked -
1. Continues to make the false assertion that 100% proof is needed to quantify 'hacking' - The closest it gets in real life to this is a legal criminal case. You are allowed to have your own opinion on what looks like hacking, you are NOT allowed to tell others what their standard must be, which he has done for 200 pages.
2. His account was made like 2-3 days ago, for the sole purpose of posting in this thread, and has a location of Qatar. This account was made to troll and to derail this thread, which he has successfully done.
3. He even went so far as to falsely accuse someone of photoshopping a real chat between Spades and his friends, and attempted to pass off his forgery evidence as a real analysis. Then Spades posted the entire chat right after, and he made a full 180 and pretended like he screwed up, "my bad guys."
4. Lastly, I believe around page ~265, but I'm sure multiple times, he has made the claim that the discussion is over, he has determined Spades innocent 100% and the he, the sole judge's determination is set and therefore the thread should be closed.
Please do not respond to Toiletcat. Do not address him. If you are a mod, please do your dilligence and ban him from this forum so real discussion can continue and the thread can finally unravel.
Thank you.
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On June 07 2012 21:10 Apollonius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 21:01 Antylamon wrote:On June 07 2012 20:59 Neurosis wrote:On June 07 2012 20:54 Apollonius wrote:On June 07 2012 20:49 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:45 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:41 Apollonius wrote:On June 07 2012 20:35 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:33 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:31 MateShade wrote:
[quote]
So yeah, who are you really? You're only allowed one account on tl Had a TL account over a year ago, but I forgot it. My IP should confirm this, so I'm not really intimidated by all those "omg smurfz!! 77cry" comments. I don't think anyone is trying to intimidate you. Your actions are just extremely strange. Do they even sell starcraft 2 in qatar? His actions are in no way strange. As someone on this page mentioned, no amount of smoke adds up to a fire. I detest maphackers, and they remove validity from a game that I love, but having a bunch of "suspicious actions" is not enough to burn one's entire way of life and occupational success. Regardless of who toiletCAT is, we can't just crucify another person. This isn't supposed to be a witchhunt, but a clear proof. The fact that even one pro was willing to protect Spades should force us to wait for a conclusive proof. Not saying he's innocent, but there's always a chance. Think how unfair this would be for Spades if the 1-5% chance that he is not hacking turned out to be true. Think about how you'd feel if your job got defamed and you suddenly lost your ability to make money based on inconclusive evidence that a mob of (mainly) inferior players believe is "likely." Then consider talking about this with a clear head. I agree with all of this for the record, I think you might have my posts and others mixed up a bit in the last few pages Edit: didn't read properly, I agree with everything except the random hypocritical keyboard warrior that is toiletcat How am I hypocritical? Rofl. Guys, lets not worry about other people in this thread. For all real significance, it doesn't matter if Spades or another pro or even some random Joe makes the comments that toiletCAT did. It's the idea that matters. We need to worry about the state of the community when someone in good standing can have his entire job torn down around him in the matter of a few days even if we never had complete proof that he's a cheater. We may have a high suggestion, and suspicious actions make it seem obvious, sure, but let's give him every last chance we can get and be rigorous. Let's not get sidetracked over who's making the points, people. Focus on what we've done, and what we should have done. If I were a sponsor, right now I'd be shivering not just because of Spades, but because of the community's ferocity. I'd be scared to invest in a player now. This is someone that has resorted to cheating in the past. You make it sound like this is a completely innocent player that has absolutely no reason to be receiving such scrutiny. And once again, finally, how in the world can you watch those replays and not realize something is up. People need to wise up and stop defending a cheater, cheaters have no place in esports. Most of us aren't trying to defend Spades, we're just trying to prove him guilty beyond any possible doubt. EDIT: ToiletCat beat me to it Was just about to write the same response ^^ thank you, good sir! But seriously, I would never support cheating. But Spades has been given a second chance in the Starcraft community - I doubt many of his haters were even interested in SC when he first hacked, but whatever. That's not my place to state. The community (at some point when it was less vicious than now) decided to give him a second chance. Regardless of whether a robber's been convicting of robbing a bank before, each new trial must be based on purely new evidence. And his career was not failing. People, for the most part, never mentioned the fact that he previously cheated. You know who all else also cheated in the past? HuK, DiMAGA, hell, even Nada did at one point (not in professional tho) We should look at him with scrutiny, and I agree with your point about the replays. If they were all that we needed, I would have dropped this long ago - it's obvious. But we need a foolproof, scientific way to prove it. Some ideas in this thread have been genius - like minimap coordinates. But lets prove that we are a truly careful and precise community and take the time to prove our suspicions. In game, any amount of luck or star sense could have happened. Hell, in half of the pro games of SC1 it seems like one player's hacking because of how awesome their star sense is.
Well that is actually not possible. By those standards we can't actually say that spades ever hacked in BW. Since we can't prove things to the degree that would satisfy two very sceptical TL posters.
And if that kind of evidence is required then there really would be no point in not using maphacks in online events since there will always be a chance that you simply had godly insight and are fond of staring at random places in your main.
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This is weird, it's almost like people actually care about Spades.
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EPT
