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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 07 2012 21:10 Apollonius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 21:01 Antylamon wrote:On June 07 2012 20:59 Neurosis wrote:On June 07 2012 20:54 Apollonius wrote:On June 07 2012 20:49 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:45 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:41 Apollonius wrote:On June 07 2012 20:35 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:33 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:31 MateShade wrote:
[quote]
So yeah, who are you really? You're only allowed one account on tl Had a TL account over a year ago, but I forgot it. My IP should confirm this, so I'm not really intimidated by all those "omg smurfz!! 77cry" comments. I don't think anyone is trying to intimidate you. Your actions are just extremely strange. Do they even sell starcraft 2 in qatar? His actions are in no way strange. As someone on this page mentioned, no amount of smoke adds up to a fire. I detest maphackers, and they remove validity from a game that I love, but having a bunch of "suspicious actions" is not enough to burn one's entire way of life and occupational success. Regardless of who toiletCAT is, we can't just crucify another person. This isn't supposed to be a witchhunt, but a clear proof. The fact that even one pro was willing to protect Spades should force us to wait for a conclusive proof. Not saying he's innocent, but there's always a chance. Think how unfair this would be for Spades if the 1-5% chance that he is not hacking turned out to be true. Think about how you'd feel if your job got defamed and you suddenly lost your ability to make money based on inconclusive evidence that a mob of (mainly) inferior players believe is "likely." Then consider talking about this with a clear head. I agree with all of this for the record, I think you might have my posts and others mixed up a bit in the last few pages Edit: didn't read properly, I agree with everything except the random hypocritical keyboard warrior that is toiletcat How am I hypocritical? Rofl. Guys, lets not worry about other people in this thread. For all real significance, it doesn't matter if Spades or another pro or even some random Joe makes the comments that toiletCAT did. It's the idea that matters. We need to worry about the state of the community when someone in good standing can have his entire job torn down around him in the matter of a few days even if we never had complete proof that he's a cheater. We may have a high suggestion, and suspicious actions make it seem obvious, sure, but let's give him every last chance we can get and be rigorous. Let's not get sidetracked over who's making the points, people. Focus on what we've done, and what we should have done. If I were a sponsor, right now I'd be shivering not just because of Spades, but because of the community's ferocity. I'd be scared to invest in a player now. This is someone that has resorted to cheating in the past. You make it sound like this is a completely innocent player that has absolutely no reason to be receiving such scrutiny. And once again, finally, how in the world can you watch those replays and not realize something is up. People need to wise up and stop defending a cheater, cheaters have no place in esports. Most of us aren't trying to defend Spades, we're just trying to prove him guilty beyond any possible doubt.  EDIT: ToiletCat beat me to it Was just about to write the same response ^^ thank you, good sir! But seriously, I would never support cheating. But Spades has been given a second chance in the Starcraft community - I doubt many of his haters were even interested in SC when he first hacked, but whatever. That's not my place to state. The community (at some point when it was less vicious than now) decided to give him a second chance. Regardless of whether a robber's been convicting of robbing a bank before, each new trial must be based on purely new evidence. And his career was not failing. People, for the most part, never mentioned the fact that he previously cheated. You know who all else also cheated in the past? HuK, DiMAGA, hell, even Nada did at one point (not in professional tho) We should look at him with scrutiny, and I agree with your point about the replays. If they were all that we needed, I would have dropped this long ago - it's obvious. But we need a foolproof, scientific way to prove it. Some ideas in this thread have been genius - like minimap coordinates. But lets prove that we are a truly careful and precise community and take the time to prove our suspicions. In game, any amount of luck or star sense could have happened. Hell, in half of the pro games of SC1 it seems like one player's hacking because of how awesome their star sense is.
You mean like statistics? The statistics that were provided in this thread? There's not going to be a magic program that puts a check box next to the names of hackers. You have to familiarize yourself with the limitations of currently available hacks and then compare and contrast matches that you know 100% were not hacked, i.e. tournaments from live events and streamed games and then compare them to the set that is in question. This is exactly what was done. It was done in a scientific method using the most up to date statistical models, but that's not proof to many.
The thing that got spades caught in bw was statistics applied similarly to how I outlined above. It was good enough then, but it's not good enough now. I don't really care about Spades being 'caught' or 'punished'. I just wanted to know out of curiosity whether he hacked or not. My digging was out of pure curiosity and I figured I'd share my findings and see if anyone could refute my findings and in this thread nobody was able to. The only thing I heard was, "well it might be luck" and unfortunately the null's been thrown.
edit: by streamed i mean FPVOD
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Close this damn thread already. Im sick of seeing it on the side bar. Its been discussed enough already.
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Edited my last post with 3 different - very unlikely, but still theoretically possible - explanations for his fail SCV scout... So it seems we may not be able to find a really 100% solid proof for hacking so far.
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On June 07 2012 22:09 starcraft911 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 21:10 Apollonius wrote:On June 07 2012 21:01 Antylamon wrote:On June 07 2012 20:59 Neurosis wrote:On June 07 2012 20:54 Apollonius wrote:On June 07 2012 20:49 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:45 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:41 Apollonius wrote:On June 07 2012 20:35 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:33 toiletCAT wrote:
[quote]
Had a TL account over a year ago, but I forgot it. My IP should confirm this, so I'm not really intimidated by all those "omg smurfz!! 77cry" comments.
I don't think anyone is trying to intimidate you. Your actions are just extremely strange. Do they even sell starcraft 2 in qatar? His actions are in no way strange. As someone on this page mentioned, no amount of smoke adds up to a fire. I detest maphackers, and they remove validity from a game that I love, but having a bunch of "suspicious actions" is not enough to burn one's entire way of life and occupational success. Regardless of who toiletCAT is, we can't just crucify another person. This isn't supposed to be a witchhunt, but a clear proof. The fact that even one pro was willing to protect Spades should force us to wait for a conclusive proof. Not saying he's innocent, but there's always a chance. Think how unfair this would be for Spades if the 1-5% chance that he is not hacking turned out to be true. Think about how you'd feel if your job got defamed and you suddenly lost your ability to make money based on inconclusive evidence that a mob of (mainly) inferior players believe is "likely." Then consider talking about this with a clear head. I agree with all of this for the record, I think you might have my posts and others mixed up a bit in the last few pages Edit: didn't read properly, I agree with everything except the random hypocritical keyboard warrior that is toiletcat How am I hypocritical? Rofl. Guys, lets not worry about other people in this thread. For all real significance, it doesn't matter if Spades or another pro or even some random Joe makes the comments that toiletCAT did. It's the idea that matters. We need to worry about the state of the community when someone in good standing can have his entire job torn down around him in the matter of a few days even if we never had complete proof that he's a cheater. We may have a high suggestion, and suspicious actions make it seem obvious, sure, but let's give him every last chance we can get and be rigorous. Let's not get sidetracked over who's making the points, people. Focus on what we've done, and what we should have done. If I were a sponsor, right now I'd be shivering not just because of Spades, but because of the community's ferocity. I'd be scared to invest in a player now. This is someone that has resorted to cheating in the past. You make it sound like this is a completely innocent player that has absolutely no reason to be receiving such scrutiny. And once again, finally, how in the world can you watch those replays and not realize something is up. People need to wise up and stop defending a cheater, cheaters have no place in esports. Most of us aren't trying to defend Spades, we're just trying to prove him guilty beyond any possible doubt. EDIT: ToiletCat beat me to it Was just about to write the same response ^^ thank you, good sir! But seriously, I would never support cheating. But Spades has been given a second chance in the Starcraft community - I doubt many of his haters were even interested in SC when he first hacked, but whatever. That's not my place to state. The community (at some point when it was less vicious than now) decided to give him a second chance. Regardless of whether a robber's been convicting of robbing a bank before, each new trial must be based on purely new evidence. And his career was not failing. People, for the most part, never mentioned the fact that he previously cheated. You know who all else also cheated in the past? HuK, DiMAGA, hell, even Nada did at one point (not in professional tho) We should look at him with scrutiny, and I agree with your point about the replays. If they were all that we needed, I would have dropped this long ago - it's obvious. But we need a foolproof, scientific way to prove it. Some ideas in this thread have been genius - like minimap coordinates. But lets prove that we are a truly careful and precise community and take the time to prove our suspicions. In game, any amount of luck or star sense could have happened. Hell, in half of the pro games of SC1 it seems like one player's hacking because of how awesome their star sense is. You mean like statistics? The statistics that were provided in this thread? There's not going to be a magic program that puts a check box next to the names of hackers. You have to familiarize yourself with the limitations of currently available hacks and then compare and contrast matches that you know 100% were not hacked, i.e. tournaments from live events and streamed games and then compare them to the set that is in question. This is exactly what was done. It was done in a scientific method using the most up to date statistical models, but that's not proof to many. The thing that got spades caught in bw was statistics applied similarly to how I outlined above. It was good enough then, but it's not good enough now. I don't really care about Spades being 'caught' or 'punished'. I just wanted to know out of curiosity whether he hacked or not. My digging was out of pure curiosity and I figured I'd share my findings and see if anyone could refute my findings and in this thread nobody was able to. The only thing I heard was, "well it might be luck" and unfortunately the null's been thrown. edit: by streamed i mean FPVOD
I missed your analysis, could you link to your post?
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I think I'm done here. I'm certain that Spades is a hacker, and I can't confirm it more to myself.
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On June 07 2012 21:51 ZenithM wrote:
Nobody forced his team to kick him out.
We didn't kick him out. Get it right.
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On June 07 2012 21:50 Utinni wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 21:44 sharky246 wrote:On June 07 2012 21:38 chuscorral wrote:On June 07 2012 21:28 figq wrote:On June 07 2012 15:45 Kitchen.Sink wrote:On June 07 2012 15:20 Bogeyman wrote:On June 07 2012 14:24 figq wrote:On June 07 2012 14:11 Bogeyman wrote:On June 07 2012 13:33 figq wrote:The "precog" case really gets me. Replay here: http://www.sc2-replays.net/en/replays/8460-goldenlight-vs-spades,dual-sightWatch 7:00-7:30 from Spades vision. He doesn't really see anything with the hellions, I don't think he even sees the count of the cocoons at the natural, because in the replay he spends a hell of a lot time in his base again at this crucial scouting moment. He then immediately declares the all-in of his opponent. To me this is much stronger evidence than the rest, because he announces his knowledge verbally, not by actions. Whereby his actions could be just random or lucky and not really a sign of knowledge; here he declares his knowledge. Unless he's used to saying stuff like "all-in / bm" to see how the opponent responds in chat or something, I find it really very difficult to explain, except with some kind of cheat. I hope Spades clarifies later, if possible; to me it makes no sense. It's strange for sure, but if you follow his camera and base everything on that you'll miss some fine details. What I'm referring to is the fact that moving across the map by means of e.g. double-clicking a hotkey or using a screen hotkey takes you there instantly while playing. When following his camera in the replay it takes you a little while to get there. During that split second (it might be 0.5 seconds at most, but I haven't tried measuring) he did have vision of all 6 eggs at the natural before moving his hellions back. Now I agree, it's still weird of him to say what he does. But he could have noticed the eggs and then tries to poke GoldenLight with his comment, to see if he gets any valuable information. And sorry for everyone who gets angry when anyone tries to defend Spades. I am rather certain that Spades has been hacking, but I won't stay silent when I see a possible explanation in his favor. Thanks for the comment! Yeah, the slight difference between how vision looks when played automatically from the replay and when actually in-game may be the crux here. In the replay it really makes it look humanly impossible to count the cocoons, but in reality he might have been able to. Okay. I'm back to undecided then. I've seen the tons of weird fishy stuff, but to me there needs to be really conclusive evidence, otherwise we may very well be cherry-picking and the guy may just have very weird styles of play that make no sense and just as often lead to (deserved) bad outcomes for him, as well. Something like loose-aggressive in poker. Well, since the pace of the thread seems to be slowing down... a lot of people have probably gone to bed. I suppose I should too, but when I get back I could point out another strong argument that people seem to have forgotten. Actually, let's just do this now and let it work while I sleep. It's not new, but it's just as suspicious as it always was. Topic: Seemingly does not care to scout, even when actually scouting. Map: MLG Daybreak 2:51 - Spades' SCV has been idling in Lucifron's main for a few seconds, so Spades' jumps to it and moves it towards the ramp with one click. He then clicks three times a bit more to the left, which if he let it go all the way there would reveal the 2nd geyser, but he doesn't let it get even close as he immediately sends it to a mineral patch in his main. Is he really that concerned with saving the SCV from a potential depot-block? The marine from Lucifron is a bit ahead of Spades' but there's enough time to check the 2nd gas and get out before the marine gets out. Given the timing of his own marine, this is a reasonable assumption. Lucifron would have to be the wizard of Oz to get his marine out fast enough to kill this marine (or just get a stupidly fast barracks, cutting economy). So wth, why not check the 2nd gas? It's fucking vital information and your SCV is right there, ready to scoot over and let you know. Is the gnome back in your head Spades? Map: MLG Entombed Valley ~3.10 - SCV enters Lucifron's base, and exits without Spades looking at it. That's weird right? He proceeds by selecting his SCV once it's far outside of the base and sends it home. He doesn't look at what the SCV scouted even once, during or after the SCV scout. Wtf? Sure, he does see on the minimap that there's one gas, but it's really hard to say if he had vision of the 2nd geyser or not (I can't open the replay anymore for some reason... "The launch of this game makes reference to mod of map dependancies which are no longer available" is the message I get when trying. Weird stuff. Maybe Blizzard is hacking? Anyways...) and him not even trying to have a look at it is odd. In fact, Spades is just starting his own 2nd gas at about that time. Why don't you care if Lucifron does the same? Also, you see two buildings that could be barracks or a barracks and a factory. Why not look? Sure, you don't expect 2 barracks, but not even looking at the intel you have available? Has the gnome in your head taken viagra? He's got balls of steel man. Map: MLG Entombed Valley (vs Theognis) 3:32 - SCV goes up the ramp and walks into Theognis' wall. There's a barracks with a tech-lab visible, and had Spades looked at the right moment he would have seen an SCV moving behind the mineral line at the natural. However he's busy doing stuff in his main at the time. So the SCV keeps going to his last way-point, and Spades wasn't paying attention to see that it got to Theognis' base already. That's pretty sloppy play for a GM-level player, but it could happen. So then you check the ramp to see what was there. Wait what? No, you don't. Spades' gnome doesn't give a shit about what's there. From the minimap there seems to be a building to the right of the barracks, without a (reasonable) doubt an add-on of some kind. What is it? Spades gnome gives zero fucks! Instead he scans at 5:42, a perfect time to reveal that the building starport will get a tech-lab from the barracks. Coincidence? Might be. Still doesn't explain the rationale of a gnome. That's enough, I have to sleep now... fucking 8 AM already... To end on a note regarding the way Spades scouts in these games: What the hell?! Enjoy! I'm out. The scouting was one of several circumstantial things that eventually pushed me over the edge and convinced me that Spades had to be hacking. I can't pretend to know how these hacks work: he may be turning it on and off; he may be using a private hack available to only a select few with sophisticated anti-detection features. I gave up looking for direct evidence of a hack, things like magic scans and minimap clicking, because so few of us know how these hacks work. But, for the love of all that is holy, how in the world can you send an SCV to your opponent's base and never, not even once, check to see what that SCV scouted like Spades did on Entombed Valley? Back when I first started playing the game I was placed in the silver league and I didn't even do that back in silver. Silver. What is the point in sending an SCV if you aren't going to process the information the SCV gathered? He does not check to see if Lucifron had a second gas nor did he check to see what the second building was that was in the process of being built. This is supposed to be a top level NA GM and he doesn't even spend one APM to click a building? He doesn't even bother to steer his SCV to scout a second gas geyser? The scouting in his games is preposterous. For these situations I'm trying (really hard) to give the guy the benefit of being bad.  Maybe he sends SCV to scout and completely forgets about that... But really, the fact that he never during the whole game even checks the buildings in the fog of war that the SCV scouted. It makes the move with the SCV there completely pointless, except that he can tell 1 gas and 2 buildings from the minimap. How is he able to resist looking in the fog to see exactly what those are is beyond any explanation, except some extreme case of absent-mindedness. But hey, he also doesn't even scout at all in other games, so... that's just another such game with no scouting, in which he forgot he even sent an SCV to scout and back. EXCEPT... it's a 4p map! And he does select the SCV again, once it's out of the scouted base, and sends it directly home, instead of letting it continue through the other spawn locations. So he obviously didn't forget about that SCV. Yeah, I guess we could settle on this case being the conclusive one. Even being absent-minded just doesn't fit with that last detail. By the way, credit to CatZ and Co, because they did explain those things in their analysis too. So isn't that it? Shouldn't we close the case on that one? It´s possible the he is just bad. But then if he is bad, how is it possible that he finishes 3-4 to LucifroN who is a TOP TOP player? Guys seriusly, im Diamond and I always micro my drones... even when i was gold. I have played with spanish players, that they alway always beat me, and i have seen them playing with LucifroN and they look bad (loosing the 100% of the time..) How is lucifron a TOP TOP player? He's placed first in national tourneys, scan invitational vs thorzain, the gathering vs brat_ok, zotac cups vs naniwa, naama, cloud and nerchio in the past. He is a top player... I DONT KNOW ABOUT TOP TOP tho.
Well thats not the point, for me TOP TOP is TOP 10 Foreigner, maybe you think he is just TOP 40...
Anyways the importat point for is that to me as a Diamod player, someone who dont micro is worker, and don,t look later, is someone very very bad like Bronze or Silver.
And to me as a Diamond, LucifroN is someone on the TOP TOP, someone that if played 100 time vs Me I will lost 100 times.
So someone in Silver vs LucifroN is beyond my imagination.
UNLESS that maybe Spades is not that bad, and he is Hacking, this will explain the case.
I will lisen other explanations, if other is more convincing i will change my mind in that particular case (Remember Occam's razor)
But this is just one from a lot of evidences.
For me the more conclussive ones are the possitional Spider sense.
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On June 07 2012 22:20 Martijn wrote:We didn't kick him out. Get it right.
I can read what "you" wrote in the statement. What I wrote myself is my interpretation.
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On June 07 2012 22:25 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 22:20 Martijn wrote:On June 07 2012 21:51 ZenithM wrote:
Nobody forced his team to kick him out. We didn't kick him out. Get it right. I can read what "you" wrote in the statement. What I wrote myself is my interpretation.
I believe he left on his own, but only because both parties knew that the team would have to kick him out eventually anyways...
(they even said so on twitter or something right ?)
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On June 07 2012 22:25 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 22:20 Martijn wrote:On June 07 2012 21:51 ZenithM wrote:
Nobody forced his team to kick him out. We didn't kick him out. Get it right. I can read what "you" wrote in the statement. What I wrote myself is my interpretation.
Your interpretation which is based on nothing but your own imagination. The statement we released is not ambiguous. If we had conclusive proof he cheated while part of WW we would kicked him, 0 tolerance. We don't, so we didn't. He left by choice to protect the team from this rampage. You don't have to believe me, but if you're going to speculate based on nothing, state that you're making it up.
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On June 07 2012 22:32 Martijn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 22:25 ZenithM wrote:On June 07 2012 22:20 Martijn wrote:On June 07 2012 21:51 ZenithM wrote:
Nobody forced his team to kick him out. We didn't kick him out. Get it right. I can read what "you" wrote in the statement. What I wrote myself is my interpretation. Your interpretation which is based on nothing but your own imagination. The statement we released is not ambiguous. If we had conclusive proof he cheated while part of WW we would kicked him, 0 tolerance. We don't, so we didn't. He left by choice to protect the team from this rampage. You don't have to believe me, but if you're going to speculate based on nothing, state that you're making it up.
He would have been kicked sooner rather then later. He probably realised and left to save face.
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On June 07 2012 22:36 Roxor9999 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 22:32 Martijn wrote:On June 07 2012 22:25 ZenithM wrote:On June 07 2012 22:20 Martijn wrote:On June 07 2012 21:51 ZenithM wrote:
Nobody forced his team to kick him out. We didn't kick him out. Get it right. I can read what "you" wrote in the statement. What I wrote myself is my interpretation. Your interpretation which is based on nothing but your own imagination. The statement we released is not ambiguous. If we had conclusive proof he cheated while part of WW we would kicked him, 0 tolerance. We don't, so we didn't. He left by choice to protect the team from this rampage. You don't have to believe me, but if you're going to speculate based on nothing, state that you're making it up. He would have been kicked sooner rather then later. He probably realised and left to save face.
Can we agree that this is pure speculation?
I really feel it's extremely weird that people are arguing about what we'd do and in which scenario when I'm Right here to tell you.
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You guys are real maniacs. What are you still discussing, seriously ?
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I think the only way to convice the exceptics, will be with good estadistics, I can´t do it cause im just Biologist, but my brother is Dr, in Physics, and works allday with stadistics, he studies Hearthuakes Hurricans... stadistically. Anyways I will not know if he will have time for such a unimportat matter.
But lets think a lite bit, take and acction where Spades move his army by luck ( one that he admited was luck, cause he was cutting corners)
If he could move rigth or let its 50% of probability, BUT, he can move Rigth- Left- Top - Down also Diagonal etc.
He also can move now or maybe 10s After of Before....
also he can move 1 cm Rigth or 10cm.
Lets give somo air to Spades Maybe the pixel where he clicked is the perfect one he needed, but maybe the ones closer will bee also good, so, unless saying " he cliked in the perfect pixel over a million, whe can define an area where the acction will be also lucky.
So its not 1 in a million but 100 in a million (numbers are invented i don´t know how many pixels are in the map)
All of this can be calculated, the when whe have the probability of event A whe just need the probability of all events A,B,C,D..... etc.
Im quite shure that at least it will be: 99,9999......
PD: excuse me for my bad English.
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Sorry but 50 replays of him playing and moving around the map one way compared to a showmatch of him playing and moving around the map completely differently that just happens to tie in with a feature of a maphack is 100% convincing to me. You just don't suddenly play differently in this kind of game.
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On June 07 2012 22:32 Martijn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 22:25 ZenithM wrote:On June 07 2012 22:20 Martijn wrote:On June 07 2012 21:51 ZenithM wrote:
Nobody forced his team to kick him out. We didn't kick him out. Get it right. I can read what "you" wrote in the statement. What I wrote myself is my interpretation. Your interpretation which is based on nothing but your own imagination. The statement we released is not ambiguous. If we had conclusive proof he cheated while part of WW we would kicked him, 0 tolerance. We don't, so we didn't. He left by choice to protect the team from this rampage. You don't have to believe me, but if you're going to speculate based on nothing, state that you're making it up.
Well, as you said, I don't have to believe you, so who made up what in the end?
Bah, let's stop here the word plays: I believe his team kicked him out.
But it's based on more than just my imagination. The thing is, it's way better for you both (WW and Spades) to have him leave "on his own", from a Public Relations stand.
If you kicked him out, you're the assholes who kicked the poor innocent guy out of the team (no conclusive proof as you said), or he's the guy his own team acknowledged as a cheater, even though there is no proof yet.
With this deal, Spades is the honorable guy who doesn't want his team's reputation to suffer, and you, well, are completely neutral.
Regardless of what this really is, I've always said the best move would have been to hold tight until the storm's passed, if he's really innocent. I didn't know WW existed until this incident (and now I'm even using an acronym), and as far as I understand, Spades was its only SC2 player, so it's not like some "reputation" would have been hurt...
But eh, it's not like I have conclusive proof that you kicked him out. Innocent until proven guilty.
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On June 07 2012 21:51 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 21:44 sharky246 wrote:On June 07 2012 21:38 chuscorral wrote:On June 07 2012 21:28 figq wrote:On June 07 2012 15:45 Kitchen.Sink wrote:On June 07 2012 15:20 Bogeyman wrote:On June 07 2012 14:24 figq wrote:On June 07 2012 14:11 Bogeyman wrote:On June 07 2012 13:33 figq wrote:The "precog" case really gets me. Replay here: http://www.sc2-replays.net/en/replays/8460-goldenlight-vs-spades,dual-sightWatch 7:00-7:30 from Spades vision. He doesn't really see anything with the hellions, I don't think he even sees the count of the cocoons at the natural, because in the replay he spends a hell of a lot time in his base again at this crucial scouting moment. He then immediately declares the all-in of his opponent. To me this is much stronger evidence than the rest, because he announces his knowledge verbally, not by actions. Whereby his actions could be just random or lucky and not really a sign of knowledge; here he declares his knowledge. Unless he's used to saying stuff like "all-in / bm" to see how the opponent responds in chat or something, I find it really very difficult to explain, except with some kind of cheat. I hope Spades clarifies later, if possible; to me it makes no sense. It's strange for sure, but if you follow his camera and base everything on that you'll miss some fine details. What I'm referring to is the fact that moving across the map by means of e.g. double-clicking a hotkey or using a screen hotkey takes you there instantly while playing. When following his camera in the replay it takes you a little while to get there. During that split second (it might be 0.5 seconds at most, but I haven't tried measuring) he did have vision of all 6 eggs at the natural before moving his hellions back. Now I agree, it's still weird of him to say what he does. But he could have noticed the eggs and then tries to poke GoldenLight with his comment, to see if he gets any valuable information. And sorry for everyone who gets angry when anyone tries to defend Spades. I am rather certain that Spades has been hacking, but I won't stay silent when I see a possible explanation in his favor. Thanks for the comment! Yeah, the slight difference between how vision looks when played automatically from the replay and when actually in-game may be the crux here. In the replay it really makes it look humanly impossible to count the cocoons, but in reality he might have been able to. Okay. I'm back to undecided then. I've seen the tons of weird fishy stuff, but to me there needs to be really conclusive evidence, otherwise we may very well be cherry-picking and the guy may just have very weird styles of play that make no sense and just as often lead to (deserved) bad outcomes for him, as well. Something like loose-aggressive in poker. Well, since the pace of the thread seems to be slowing down... a lot of people have probably gone to bed. I suppose I should too, but when I get back I could point out another strong argument that people seem to have forgotten. Actually, let's just do this now and let it work while I sleep. It's not new, but it's just as suspicious as it always was. Topic: Seemingly does not care to scout, even when actually scouting. Map: MLG Daybreak 2:51 - Spades' SCV has been idling in Lucifron's main for a few seconds, so Spades' jumps to it and moves it towards the ramp with one click. He then clicks three times a bit more to the left, which if he let it go all the way there would reveal the 2nd geyser, but he doesn't let it get even close as he immediately sends it to a mineral patch in his main. Is he really that concerned with saving the SCV from a potential depot-block? The marine from Lucifron is a bit ahead of Spades' but there's enough time to check the 2nd gas and get out before the marine gets out. Given the timing of his own marine, this is a reasonable assumption. Lucifron would have to be the wizard of Oz to get his marine out fast enough to kill this marine (or just get a stupidly fast barracks, cutting economy). So wth, why not check the 2nd gas? It's fucking vital information and your SCV is right there, ready to scoot over and let you know. Is the gnome back in your head Spades? Map: MLG Entombed Valley ~3.10 - SCV enters Lucifron's base, and exits without Spades looking at it. That's weird right? He proceeds by selecting his SCV once it's far outside of the base and sends it home. He doesn't look at what the SCV scouted even once, during or after the SCV scout. Wtf? Sure, he does see on the minimap that there's one gas, but it's really hard to say if he had vision of the 2nd geyser or not (I can't open the replay anymore for some reason... "The launch of this game makes reference to mod of map dependancies which are no longer available" is the message I get when trying. Weird stuff. Maybe Blizzard is hacking? Anyways...) and him not even trying to have a look at it is odd. In fact, Spades is just starting his own 2nd gas at about that time. Why don't you care if Lucifron does the same? Also, you see two buildings that could be barracks or a barracks and a factory. Why not look? Sure, you don't expect 2 barracks, but not even looking at the intel you have available? Has the gnome in your head taken viagra? He's got balls of steel man. Map: MLG Entombed Valley (vs Theognis) 3:32 - SCV goes up the ramp and walks into Theognis' wall. There's a barracks with a tech-lab visible, and had Spades looked at the right moment he would have seen an SCV moving behind the mineral line at the natural. However he's busy doing stuff in his main at the time. So the SCV keeps going to his last way-point, and Spades wasn't paying attention to see that it got to Theognis' base already. That's pretty sloppy play for a GM-level player, but it could happen. So then you check the ramp to see what was there. Wait what? No, you don't. Spades' gnome doesn't give a shit about what's there. From the minimap there seems to be a building to the right of the barracks, without a (reasonable) doubt an add-on of some kind. What is it? Spades gnome gives zero fucks! Instead he scans at 5:42, a perfect time to reveal that the building starport will get a tech-lab from the barracks. Coincidence? Might be. Still doesn't explain the rationale of a gnome. That's enough, I have to sleep now... fucking 8 AM already... To end on a note regarding the way Spades scouts in these games: What the hell?! Enjoy! I'm out. The scouting was one of several circumstantial things that eventually pushed me over the edge and convinced me that Spades had to be hacking. I can't pretend to know how these hacks work: he may be turning it on and off; he may be using a private hack available to only a select few with sophisticated anti-detection features. I gave up looking for direct evidence of a hack, things like magic scans and minimap clicking, because so few of us know how these hacks work. But, for the love of all that is holy, how in the world can you send an SCV to your opponent's base and never, not even once, check to see what that SCV scouted like Spades did on Entombed Valley? Back when I first started playing the game I was placed in the silver league and I didn't even do that back in silver. Silver. What is the point in sending an SCV if you aren't going to process the information the SCV gathered? He does not check to see if Lucifron had a second gas nor did he check to see what the second building was that was in the process of being built. This is supposed to be a top level NA GM and he doesn't even spend one APM to click a building? He doesn't even bother to steer his SCV to scout a second gas geyser? The scouting in his games is preposterous. For these situations I'm trying (really hard) to give the guy the benefit of being bad. Maybe he sends SCV to scout and completely forgets about that... But really, the fact that he never during the whole game even checks the buildings in the fog of war that the SCV scouted. It makes the move with the SCV there completely pointless, except that he can tell 1 gas and 2 buildings from the minimap. How is he able to resist looking in the fog to see exactly what those are is beyond any explanation, except some extreme case of absent-mindedness. But hey, he also doesn't even scout at all in other games, so... that's just another such game with no scouting, in which he forgot he even sent an SCV to scout and back. EXCEPT... it's a 4p map! And he does select the SCV again, once it's out of the scouted base, and sends it directly home, instead of letting it continue through the other spawn locations. So he obviously didn't forget about that SCV. Yeah, I guess we could settle on this case being the conclusive one. Even being absent-minded just doesn't fit with that last detail. By the way, credit to CatZ and Co, because they did explain those things in their analysis too. So isn't that it? Shouldn't we close the case on that one? It´s possible the he is just bad. But then if he is bad, how is it possible that he finishes 3-4 to LucifroN who is a TOP TOP player? Guys seriusly, im Diamond and I always micro my drones... even when i was gold. I have played with spanish players, that they alway always beat me, and i have seen them playing with LucifroN and they look bad (loosing the 100% of the time..) How is lucifron a TOP TOP player? Maybe because of things like a 4:0 against Thorzain and 3:0 against DIMAGA. Maybe not "TOP TOP" but "TOP" definitely.
Add his big LAN-win 2 months ago winning 17 600$ - http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/The_Gathering_2012
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On June 07 2012 20:37 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:35 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:33 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:31 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:29 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:24 Integra wrote:On June 07 2012 20:18 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:07 zefreak wrote:On June 07 2012 19:40 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 19:37 zefreak wrote:
[quote]
Hah, he has literally 0 chance of making it out of open bracket, hacker or not.
Actually, he has 0 chance of making it out even if he was allowed to hack. It's also completely irrelevant to the thread, because we've debunked all evidence that suggests he's hacking. lol, believe what you want. You aren't a defender of justice and due process, just a troll/fan/Spades. Lot's of supposed evidence was indeed debunked, mostly the attempted technical proofs. That's to be expected, as there isn't really a known way to prove hacking if the user isn't stupid enough to use blink hacks or similar things. There are still LOADS of suspicious behaviors. Yeah, I'm a troll because I don't jump onto the "well, there's no evidence but we think he's hacking"-bandwagon. we never said that you were a troll cause of that you don't agree, the reason is cause you seem to post in all Spades related threads 24 hours a day LOL. How the hell do you have time to make 76 posts a day? it's freaking insane, don't you get bored? I mean there are only so many variations you can type " not enough evidence". Do you get payed by the hour? If yes then I bet people here will pay you even more if you stopped! lol. Let's see if you can get your daily post count up to a 100! I can post where ever I want, man. And trust me, I'm really, really tired of this, I mean really. The only people left in this are people like you who likes to accuse others of being trolls or Spades himself, which is ridiculous. I honestly can't take your "funny comments" seriously, because your only purpose is to spread the hate from one person onto another. So yeah, who are you really? You're only allowed one account on tl Had a TL account over a year ago, but I forgot it. My IP should confirm this, so I'm not really intimidated by all those "omg smurfz!! 77cry" comments. I don't think anyone is trying to intimidate you. Your actions are just extremely strange. Do they even sell starcraft 2 in qatar? I'm from Denmark, lol. And why is it strange that I refuse to say that he's a hacker, when we don't have proof?
Or is it "Danmark!"? Because that's literally the only thing you've posted that isn't in this [?]Spades Hacking? thread or the Maphacker invited to WCS USA Qualifiers @ MLG thread.
You're not very good at trolling.
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On June 07 2012 22:52 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 22:32 Martijn wrote:On June 07 2012 22:25 ZenithM wrote:On June 07 2012 22:20 Martijn wrote:On June 07 2012 21:51 ZenithM wrote:
Nobody forced his team to kick him out. We didn't kick him out. Get it right. I can read what "you" wrote in the statement. What I wrote myself is my interpretation. Your interpretation which is based on nothing but your own imagination. The statement we released is not ambiguous. If we had conclusive proof he cheated while part of WW we would kicked him, 0 tolerance. We don't, so we didn't. He left by choice to protect the team from this rampage. You don't have to believe me, but if you're going to speculate based on nothing, state that you're making it up. Well, as you said, I don't have to believe you, so who made up what in the end? Bah, let's stop here the word plays: I believe his team kicked him out. But it's based on more than just my imagination. The thing is, it's way better for you both (WW and Spades) to have him leave "on his own", from a Public Relations stand. If you kicked him out, you're the assholes who kicked the poor innocent guy out of the team (no conclusive proof as you said), or he's the guy his own team acknowledged as a cheater, even though there is no proof yet. With this deal, Spades is the honorable guy who doesn't want his team's reputation to suffer, and you, well, are completely neutral. Regardless of what this really is, I've always said the best move woulhave been to hold tight until the storm's passed, if he's reallinnocent. I didn't know WW existed until this incident (and now I'm even using an acronym), and as far as I understand, Spades was its only SC2 player, so it's not like some "reputation" would have been hurt... But eh, it's not like I have conclusive proof that you kicked him out. Innocent until proven guilty.
I can live with that. I'm clearly stating that you're wrong in your belief, but what you believe is up to you.
As for WW, we had 1 sc2 player, but we've got a very diverse roster with top players in several games. Sponsors invest in our reputation and any cheaters on our roster would hurt us. You might not know the team, but people familiar with other esports often do.
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On June 07 2012 22:52 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 22:32 Martijn wrote:On June 07 2012 22:25 ZenithM wrote:On June 07 2012 22:20 Martijn wrote:On June 07 2012 21:51 ZenithM wrote:
Nobody forced his team to kick him out. We didn't kick him out. Get it right. I can read what "you" wrote in the statement. What I wrote myself is my interpretation. Your interpretation which is based on nothing but your own imagination. The statement we released is not ambiguous. If we had conclusive proof he cheated while part of WW we would kicked him, 0 tolerance. We don't, so we didn't. He left by choice to protect the team from this rampage. You don't have to believe me, but if you're going to speculate based on nothing, state that you're making it up. Well, as you said, I don't have to believe you, so who made up what in the end? Bah, let's stop here the word plays: I believe his team kicked him out. But it's based on more than just my imagination. The thing is, it's way better for you both (WW and Spades) to have him leave "on his own", from a Public Relations stand. If you kicked him out, you're the assholes who kicked the poor innocent guy out of the team (no conclusive proof as you said), or he's the guy his own team acknowledged as a cheater, even though there is no proof yet. With this deal, Spades is the honorable guy who doesn't want his team's reputation to suffer, and you, well, are completely neutral. Regardless of what this really is, I've always said the best move would have been to hold tight until the storm's passed, if he's really innocent. I didn't know WW existed until this incident (and now I'm even using an acronym), and as far as I understand, Spades was its only SC2 player, so it's not like some "reputation" would have been hurt... But eh, it's not like I have conclusive proof that you kicked him out. Innocent until proven guilty.
Your initial post accused the team of kicking him out. The team stated they did not kick him out. End of story.
It's fine to say "I believe they kicked him out" - but your initial post didn't include "I believe".
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