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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 07 2012 20:46 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:35 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:31 ZenithM wrote:
I've spotted this toilet guy basically since its first post (something about peace on the earth). Since then he's been defending Spades no matter what. Very touching.
I gotta admit that for now nobody has found anything 100% hackish. Kinda weird considering all that's been investigated. I'm not defending Spades, again, I'll repeat myself for you; I don't care about Spades, if he's a hacker, then fuck him, if not, I think it's only fair that we don't jump to conclusions, which has been my stance in this from the beginning. Please stop contradicting my initial statements. Did you find an explanation about the huge discrepancies in mechanics (especially regarding handling the fog of war) that Spades displays in his ladder games and during the showmatch with LucifroN. If you want something stronger than that, Spades is probably innocent for all eternity and is free to map hack to his heart's content... Do you think he would use something as obvious as a blink hack like a Protoss GM wannabe? He's not that dumb, of course he will have used something relatively well concealed.
Yup, we did. Page 200-275.
Yes, I do, because that would be proof, and I would then be okay with saying that he's a hacker.
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On June 07 2012 20:45 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:41 Apollonius wrote:On June 07 2012 20:35 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:33 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:31 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:29 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:24 Integra wrote:On June 07 2012 20:18 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:07 zefreak wrote:On June 07 2012 19:40 toiletCAT wrote:
[quote]
It's also completely irrelevant to the thread, because we've debunked all evidence that suggests he's hacking. lol, believe what you want. You aren't a defender of justice and due process, just a troll/fan/Spades. Lot's of supposed evidence was indeed debunked, mostly the attempted technical proofs. That's to be expected, as there isn't really a known way to prove hacking if the user isn't stupid enough to use blink hacks or similar things. There are still LOADS of suspicious behaviors. Yeah, I'm a troll because I don't jump onto the "well, there's no evidence but we think he's hacking"-bandwagon. we never said that you were a troll cause of that you don't agree, the reason is cause you seem to post in all Spades related threads 24 hours a day LOL. How the hell do you have time to make 76 posts a day? it's freaking insane, don't you get bored? I mean there are only so many variations you can type " not enough evidence". Do you get payed by the hour? If yes then I bet people here will pay you even more if you stopped! lol. Let's see if you can get your daily post count up to a 100! I can post where ever I want, man. And trust me, I'm really, really tired of this, I mean really. The only people left in this are people like you who likes to accuse others of being trolls or Spades himself, which is ridiculous. I honestly can't take your "funny comments" seriously, because your only purpose is to spread the hate from one person onto another. So yeah, who are you really? You're only allowed one account on tl Had a TL account over a year ago, but I forgot it. My IP should confirm this, so I'm not really intimidated by all those "omg smurfz!! 77cry" comments. I don't think anyone is trying to intimidate you. Your actions are just extremely strange. Do they even sell starcraft 2 in qatar? His actions are in no way strange. As someone on this page mentioned, no amount of smoke adds up to a fire. I detest maphackers, and they remove validity from a game that I love, but having a bunch of "suspicious actions" is not enough to burn one's entire way of life and occupational success. Regardless of who toiletCAT is, we can't just crucify another person. This isn't supposed to be a witchhunt, but a clear proof. The fact that even one pro was willing to protect Spades should force us to wait for a conclusive proof. Not saying he's innocent, but there's always a chance. Think how unfair this would be for Spades if the 1-5% chance that he is not hacking turned out to be true. Think about how you'd feel if your job got defamed and you suddenly lost your ability to make money based on inconclusive evidence that a mob of (mainly) inferior players believe is "likely." Then consider talking about this with a clear head. I agree with all of this for the record, I think you might have my posts and others mixed up a bit in the last few pages Edit: didn't read properly, I agree with everything except the random hypocritical keyboard warrior that is toiletcat
How am I hypocritical? Rofl.
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On June 07 2012 20:48 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:46 ZenithM wrote:On June 07 2012 20:35 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:31 ZenithM wrote:
I've spotted this toilet guy basically since its first post (something about peace on the earth). Since then he's been defending Spades no matter what. Very touching.
I gotta admit that for now nobody has found anything 100% hackish. Kinda weird considering all that's been investigated. I'm not defending Spades, again, I'll repeat myself for you; I don't care about Spades, if he's a hacker, then fuck him, if not, I think it's only fair that we don't jump to conclusions, which has been my stance in this from the beginning. Please stop contradicting my initial statements. Did you find an explanation about the huge discrepancies in mechanics (especially regarding handling the fog of war) that Spades displays in his ladder games and during the showmatch with LucifroN. If you want something stronger than that, Spades is probably innocent for all eternity and is free to map hack to his heart's content... Do you think he would use something as obvious as a blink hack like a Protoss GM wannabe? He's not that dumb, of course he will have used something relatively well concealed. Yup, we did. Page 200-275. Yes, I do, because that would be proof, and I would then be okay with saying that he's a hacker.
His not looking at the fog is proof he hacks just as his failure to click enemy units in the past was proof. He's a hacker.
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On June 07 2012 20:50 starcraft911 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:48 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:46 ZenithM wrote:On June 07 2012 20:35 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:31 ZenithM wrote:
I've spotted this toilet guy basically since its first post (something about peace on the earth). Since then he's been defending Spades no matter what. Very touching.
I gotta admit that for now nobody has found anything 100% hackish. Kinda weird considering all that's been investigated. I'm not defending Spades, again, I'll repeat myself for you; I don't care about Spades, if he's a hacker, then fuck him, if not, I think it's only fair that we don't jump to conclusions, which has been my stance in this from the beginning. Please stop contradicting my initial statements. Did you find an explanation about the huge discrepancies in mechanics (especially regarding handling the fog of war) that Spades displays in his ladder games and during the showmatch with LucifroN. If you want something stronger than that, Spades is probably innocent for all eternity and is free to map hack to his heart's content... Do you think he would use something as obvious as a blink hack like a Protoss GM wannabe? He's not that dumb, of course he will have used something relatively well concealed. Yup, we did. Page 200-275. Yes, I do, because that would be proof, and I would then be okay with saying that he's a hacker. His not looking at the fog is proof he hacks just as his failure to click enemy units in the past was proof. He's a hacker.
If you're not going to read the thread, then I don't know what to tell you.
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On June 07 2012 20:45 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:41 Apollonius wrote:On June 07 2012 20:35 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:33 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:31 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:29 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:24 Integra wrote:On June 07 2012 20:18 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:07 zefreak wrote:On June 07 2012 19:40 toiletCAT wrote:
[quote]
It's also completely irrelevant to the thread, because we've debunked all evidence that suggests he's hacking. lol, believe what you want. You aren't a defender of justice and due process, just a troll/fan/Spades. Lot's of supposed evidence was indeed debunked, mostly the attempted technical proofs. That's to be expected, as there isn't really a known way to prove hacking if the user isn't stupid enough to use blink hacks or similar things. There are still LOADS of suspicious behaviors. Yeah, I'm a troll because I don't jump onto the "well, there's no evidence but we think he's hacking"-bandwagon. we never said that you were a troll cause of that you don't agree, the reason is cause you seem to post in all Spades related threads 24 hours a day LOL. How the hell do you have time to make 76 posts a day? it's freaking insane, don't you get bored? I mean there are only so many variations you can type " not enough evidence". Do you get payed by the hour? If yes then I bet people here will pay you even more if you stopped! lol. Let's see if you can get your daily post count up to a 100! I can post where ever I want, man. And trust me, I'm really, really tired of this, I mean really. The only people left in this are people like you who likes to accuse others of being trolls or Spades himself, which is ridiculous. I honestly can't take your "funny comments" seriously, because your only purpose is to spread the hate from one person onto another. So yeah, who are you really? You're only allowed one account on tl Had a TL account over a year ago, but I forgot it. My IP should confirm this, so I'm not really intimidated by all those "omg smurfz!! 77cry" comments. I don't think anyone is trying to intimidate you. Your actions are just extremely strange. Do they even sell starcraft 2 in qatar? His actions are in no way strange. As someone on this page mentioned, no amount of smoke adds up to a fire. I detest maphackers, and they remove validity from a game that I love, but having a bunch of "suspicious actions" is not enough to burn one's entire way of life and occupational success. Regardless of who toiletCAT is, we can't just crucify another person. This isn't supposed to be a witchhunt, but a clear proof. The fact that even one pro was willing to protect Spades should force us to wait for a conclusive proof. Not saying he's innocent, but there's always a chance. Think how unfair this would be for Spades if the 1-5% chance that he is not hacking turned out to be true. Think about how you'd feel if your job got defamed and you suddenly lost your ability to make money based on inconclusive evidence that a mob of (mainly) inferior players believe is "likely." Then consider talking about this with a clear head. I agree with all of this for the record, I think you might have my posts and others mixed up a bit in the last few pages Edit: didn't read properly, I agree with everything except the random hypocritical keyboard warrior that is toiletcat
This is clueless, not even criminal cases have the burden of 100% proof, because SUCH A THING DOESN'T EXIST. The BW method of detecting oblivion hack wasn't 100% proof either, but it was extremely strong evidence of the fact, and there was a very small probability of being a false positive.
False positives happen everywhere, in every domain, and if you are too afraid of making conclusions based on reasonable probabilities then you would live in a society where everyone gets away with everything.
There is no such thing as 100% proof and you are kidding yourself if you think there is.
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On June 07 2012 20:51 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:50 starcraft911 wrote:On June 07 2012 20:48 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:46 ZenithM wrote:On June 07 2012 20:35 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:31 ZenithM wrote:
I've spotted this toilet guy basically since its first post (something about peace on the earth). Since then he's been defending Spades no matter what. Very touching.
I gotta admit that for now nobody has found anything 100% hackish. Kinda weird considering all that's been investigated. I'm not defending Spades, again, I'll repeat myself for you; I don't care about Spades, if he's a hacker, then fuck him, if not, I think it's only fair that we don't jump to conclusions, which has been my stance in this from the beginning. Please stop contradicting my initial statements. Did you find an explanation about the huge discrepancies in mechanics (especially regarding handling the fog of war) that Spades displays in his ladder games and during the showmatch with LucifroN. If you want something stronger than that, Spades is probably innocent for all eternity and is free to map hack to his heart's content... Do you think he would use something as obvious as a blink hack like a Protoss GM wannabe? He's not that dumb, of course he will have used something relatively well concealed. Yup, we did. Page 200-275. Yes, I do, because that would be proof, and I would then be okay with saying that he's a hacker. His not looking at the fog is proof he hacks just as his failure to click enemy units in the past was proof. He's a hacker. If you're not going to read the thread, then I don't know what to tell you.
You could tell him what the evidence disproving his claim is, since the thread is nearly 300 pages and not everybody has the time to read those.
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On June 07 2012 20:46 Apollonius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:39 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:36 Flyingcookie wrote:This Thread shows why the all relevant Data Serverside in League of Legends development was a good decision btt: On June 07 2012 20:22 toiletCAT wrote:And how is that relevant? It's not obvious that Spades is hacking, we've proved you wrong. When will you give up? Read the last 100 pages, we've literally debunked every single evidence you've presented. Every single piece of evidence. Your remaining arguments is "omg, toiletcat iz teh trollz!! he iz probably spades?!!!" What? After reading almost all and watching the replay the possibility that he hacked is way higher than that he don't. Of course there CAN'T BE 100% evidence but the sum in the games and statements make it really clear thats very, very likely! Exactly! The only thing that has been debunked is methods of proof. There has been no convincing Evidence that he didn't hack either and no good explanations for the strange decisions he makes in the game. If you watched the replays they immediately ring alarm bells. I'm not saying he's 100% hacking but absolutely this should be continued to be looked at. You're telling people to give up toilet when there's less evidence for your side. You're Completely hypocritical It's not what side has less evidence that should win. Regardless of whether convincing evidence can be found that he is innocent, he will be innocent until proven guilty - I'm not saying we should drop the issue, but we're supposed to keep an open mind. It seems that people like you have already made up your mind, and are starting to use ad hominem attacks on other people (like toiletCAT and Spades) rather than addressing the issue at hand. And btw, you're someone who'd probably like a due process of law if you'd committed murder. You'd probably not want people to say, "Well, he could have done it, lets put him on deathrow" - well, that's essentially what happened to Spades career in the last couple of days. Yeah. And people like you are the true hypocrites. We, as accusers, must have all the burden of proof.
I think you gravely misunderstand what I was saying. Toiletcat told me to give up, when his arguement was no better. I'm not sure how that makes me a hypocrit. There is no reason that people who believe he is hacking should give up, and no reason for the defense to give up either
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On June 07 2012 20:49 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:45 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:41 Apollonius wrote:On June 07 2012 20:35 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:33 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:31 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:29 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:24 Integra wrote:On June 07 2012 20:18 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:07 zefreak wrote:
[quote]
lol, believe what you want. You aren't a defender of justice and due process, just a troll/fan/Spades.
Lot's of supposed evidence was indeed debunked, mostly the attempted technical proofs. That's to be expected, as there isn't really a known way to prove hacking if the user isn't stupid enough to use blink hacks or similar things. There are still LOADS of suspicious behaviors. Yeah, I'm a troll because I don't jump onto the "well, there's no evidence but we think he's hacking"-bandwagon. we never said that you were a troll cause of that you don't agree, the reason is cause you seem to post in all Spades related threads 24 hours a day LOL. How the hell do you have time to make 76 posts a day? it's freaking insane, don't you get bored? I mean there are only so many variations you can type " not enough evidence". Do you get payed by the hour? If yes then I bet people here will pay you even more if you stopped! lol. Let's see if you can get your daily post count up to a 100! I can post where ever I want, man. And trust me, I'm really, really tired of this, I mean really. The only people left in this are people like you who likes to accuse others of being trolls or Spades himself, which is ridiculous. I honestly can't take your "funny comments" seriously, because your only purpose is to spread the hate from one person onto another. So yeah, who are you really? You're only allowed one account on tl Had a TL account over a year ago, but I forgot it. My IP should confirm this, so I'm not really intimidated by all those "omg smurfz!! 77cry" comments. I don't think anyone is trying to intimidate you. Your actions are just extremely strange. Do they even sell starcraft 2 in qatar? His actions are in no way strange. As someone on this page mentioned, no amount of smoke adds up to a fire. I detest maphackers, and they remove validity from a game that I love, but having a bunch of "suspicious actions" is not enough to burn one's entire way of life and occupational success. Regardless of who toiletCAT is, we can't just crucify another person. This isn't supposed to be a witchhunt, but a clear proof. The fact that even one pro was willing to protect Spades should force us to wait for a conclusive proof. Not saying he's innocent, but there's always a chance. Think how unfair this would be for Spades if the 1-5% chance that he is not hacking turned out to be true. Think about how you'd feel if your job got defamed and you suddenly lost your ability to make money based on inconclusive evidence that a mob of (mainly) inferior players believe is "likely." Then consider talking about this with a clear head. I agree with all of this for the record, I think you might have my posts and others mixed up a bit in the last few pages Edit: didn't read properly, I agree with everything except the random hypocritical keyboard warrior that is toiletcat How am I hypocritical? Rofl.
Guys, lets not worry about other people in this thread. For all real significance, it doesn't matter if Spades or another pro or even some random Joe makes the comments that toiletCAT did. It's the idea that matters. We need to worry about the state of the community when someone in good standing can have his entire job torn down around him in the matter of a few days even if we never had complete proof that he's a cheater. We may have a high suggestion, and suspicious actions make it seem obvious, sure, but let's give him every last chance we can get and be rigorous. Let's not get sidetracked over who's making the points, people. Focus on what we've done, and what we should have done. If I were a sponsor, right now I'd be shivering not just because of Spades, but because of the community's ferocity. I'd be scared to invest in a player now.
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On June 07 2012 20:50 starcraft911 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:48 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:46 ZenithM wrote:On June 07 2012 20:35 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:31 ZenithM wrote:
I've spotted this toilet guy basically since its first post (something about peace on the earth). Since then he's been defending Spades no matter what. Very touching.
I gotta admit that for now nobody has found anything 100% hackish. Kinda weird considering all that's been investigated. I'm not defending Spades, again, I'll repeat myself for you; I don't care about Spades, if he's a hacker, then fuck him, if not, I think it's only fair that we don't jump to conclusions, which has been my stance in this from the beginning. Please stop contradicting my initial statements. Did you find an explanation about the huge discrepancies in mechanics (especially regarding handling the fog of war) that Spades displays in his ladder games and during the showmatch with LucifroN. If you want something stronger than that, Spades is probably innocent for all eternity and is free to map hack to his heart's content... Do you think he would use something as obvious as a blink hack like a Protoss GM wannabe? He's not that dumb, of course he will have used something relatively well concealed. Yup, we did. Page 200-275. Yes, I do, because that would be proof, and I would then be okay with saying that he's a hacker. His not looking at the fog is proof he hacks just as his failure to click enemy units in the past was proof. He's a hacker.
Spades said that he does everything on the minimap. Scans, checking for expos, scouting...
Incredibly unlikely, but possible.
The thing that really makes me believe he is a hacker is his reaction. He left his team and now he's nonstop practicing for MLG. If you're an exposed maphacker going to a no-hack zone, there isn't much left to do.
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On June 07 2012 20:51 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:50 starcraft911 wrote:On June 07 2012 20:48 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:46 ZenithM wrote:On June 07 2012 20:35 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:31 ZenithM wrote:
I've spotted this toilet guy basically since its first post (something about peace on the earth). Since then he's been defending Spades no matter what. Very touching.
I gotta admit that for now nobody has found anything 100% hackish. Kinda weird considering all that's been investigated. I'm not defending Spades, again, I'll repeat myself for you; I don't care about Spades, if he's a hacker, then fuck him, if not, I think it's only fair that we don't jump to conclusions, which has been my stance in this from the beginning. Please stop contradicting my initial statements. Did you find an explanation about the huge discrepancies in mechanics (especially regarding handling the fog of war) that Spades displays in his ladder games and during the showmatch with LucifroN. If you want something stronger than that, Spades is probably innocent for all eternity and is free to map hack to his heart's content... Do you think he would use something as obvious as a blink hack like a Protoss GM wannabe? He's not that dumb, of course he will have used something relatively well concealed. Yup, we did. Page 200-275. Yes, I do, because that would be proof, and I would then be okay with saying that he's a hacker. His not looking at the fog is proof he hacks just as his failure to click enemy units in the past was proof. He's a hacker. If you're not going to read the thread, then I don't know what to tell you.
I've read it all. I've watched every replay spades posted, every replay the OP posted, every replay from the reddit thread, every replay from all the MLG that spades played in. I've got no doubt he's guilty. I've done the footwork and sought out the evidence for myself.
You have a low post count. Sup Spades?
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On June 07 2012 20:54 Apollonius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:49 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:45 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:41 Apollonius wrote:On June 07 2012 20:35 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:33 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:31 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:29 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:24 Integra wrote:On June 07 2012 20:18 toiletCAT wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, I'm a troll because I don't jump onto the "well, there's no evidence but we think he's hacking"-bandwagon. we never said that you were a troll cause of that you don't agree, the reason is cause you seem to post in all Spades related threads 24 hours a day LOL. How the hell do you have time to make 76 posts a day? it's freaking insane, don't you get bored? I mean there are only so many variations you can type " not enough evidence". Do you get payed by the hour? If yes then I bet people here will pay you even more if you stopped! lol. Let's see if you can get your daily post count up to a 100! I can post where ever I want, man. And trust me, I'm really, really tired of this, I mean really. The only people left in this are people like you who likes to accuse others of being trolls or Spades himself, which is ridiculous. I honestly can't take your "funny comments" seriously, because your only purpose is to spread the hate from one person onto another. So yeah, who are you really? You're only allowed one account on tl Had a TL account over a year ago, but I forgot it. My IP should confirm this, so I'm not really intimidated by all those "omg smurfz!! 77cry" comments. I don't think anyone is trying to intimidate you. Your actions are just extremely strange. Do they even sell starcraft 2 in qatar? His actions are in no way strange. As someone on this page mentioned, no amount of smoke adds up to a fire. I detest maphackers, and they remove validity from a game that I love, but having a bunch of "suspicious actions" is not enough to burn one's entire way of life and occupational success. Regardless of who toiletCAT is, we can't just crucify another person. This isn't supposed to be a witchhunt, but a clear proof. The fact that even one pro was willing to protect Spades should force us to wait for a conclusive proof. Not saying he's innocent, but there's always a chance. Think how unfair this would be for Spades if the 1-5% chance that he is not hacking turned out to be true. Think about how you'd feel if your job got defamed and you suddenly lost your ability to make money based on inconclusive evidence that a mob of (mainly) inferior players believe is "likely." Then consider talking about this with a clear head. I agree with all of this for the record, I think you might have my posts and others mixed up a bit in the last few pages Edit: didn't read properly, I agree with everything except the random hypocritical keyboard warrior that is toiletcat How am I hypocritical? Rofl. Guys, lets not worry about other people in this thread. For all real significance, it doesn't matter if Spades or another pro or even some random Joe makes the comments that toiletCAT did. It's the idea that matters. We need to worry about the state of the community when someone in good standing can have his entire job torn down around him in the matter of a few days even if we never had complete proof that he's a cheater. We may have a high suggestion, and suspicious actions make it seem obvious, sure, but let's give him every last chance we can get and be rigorous. Let's not get sidetracked over who's making the points, people. Focus on what we've done, and what we should have done. If I were a sponsor, right now I'd be shivering not just because of Spades, but because of the community's ferocity. I'd be scared to invest in a player now.
He wasn't in good standing, he didn't have to be removed from the team, his 'career' wasn't ruined. If his team thought he was innocent and was worth a shit they wouldn't have removed him if he hadn't stepped down.
Other than that I agree with you, I would like this thread to focus on searching for more evidence/testing current evidence, rather than trying to decide one way or the other and close the thread.
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On June 07 2012 20:51 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:45 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:41 Apollonius wrote:On June 07 2012 20:35 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:33 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:31 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:29 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:24 Integra wrote:On June 07 2012 20:18 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:07 zefreak wrote:
[quote]
lol, believe what you want. You aren't a defender of justice and due process, just a troll/fan/Spades.
Lot's of supposed evidence was indeed debunked, mostly the attempted technical proofs. That's to be expected, as there isn't really a known way to prove hacking if the user isn't stupid enough to use blink hacks or similar things. There are still LOADS of suspicious behaviors. Yeah, I'm a troll because I don't jump onto the "well, there's no evidence but we think he's hacking"-bandwagon. we never said that you were a troll cause of that you don't agree, the reason is cause you seem to post in all Spades related threads 24 hours a day LOL. How the hell do you have time to make 76 posts a day? it's freaking insane, don't you get bored? I mean there are only so many variations you can type " not enough evidence". Do you get payed by the hour? If yes then I bet people here will pay you even more if you stopped! lol. Let's see if you can get your daily post count up to a 100! I can post where ever I want, man. And trust me, I'm really, really tired of this, I mean really. The only people left in this are people like you who likes to accuse others of being trolls or Spades himself, which is ridiculous. I honestly can't take your "funny comments" seriously, because your only purpose is to spread the hate from one person onto another. So yeah, who are you really? You're only allowed one account on tl Had a TL account over a year ago, but I forgot it. My IP should confirm this, so I'm not really intimidated by all those "omg smurfz!! 77cry" comments. I don't think anyone is trying to intimidate you. Your actions are just extremely strange. Do they even sell starcraft 2 in qatar? His actions are in no way strange. As someone on this page mentioned, no amount of smoke adds up to a fire. I detest maphackers, and they remove validity from a game that I love, but having a bunch of "suspicious actions" is not enough to burn one's entire way of life and occupational success. Regardless of who toiletCAT is, we can't just crucify another person. This isn't supposed to be a witchhunt, but a clear proof. The fact that even one pro was willing to protect Spades should force us to wait for a conclusive proof. Not saying he's innocent, but there's always a chance. Think how unfair this would be for Spades if the 1-5% chance that he is not hacking turned out to be true. Think about how you'd feel if your job got defamed and you suddenly lost your ability to make money based on inconclusive evidence that a mob of (mainly) inferior players believe is "likely." Then consider talking about this with a clear head. I agree with all of this for the record, I think you might have my posts and others mixed up a bit in the last few pages Edit: didn't read properly, I agree with everything except the random hypocritical keyboard warrior that is toiletcat This is clueless, not even criminal cases have the burden of 100% proof, because SUCH A THING DOESN'T EXIST. The BW method of detecting oblivion hack wasn't 100% proof either, but it was extremely strong evidence of the fact, and there was a very small probability of being a false positive. False positives happen everywhere, in every domain, and if you are too afraid of making conclusions based on reasonable probabilities then you would live in a society where everyone gets away with everything. There is no such thing as 100% proof and you are kidding yourself if you think there is.
In retrospect, I suppose, but in BW, they at least used hundreds of replays, to lower the chance of a false positive to almost nothing. We should at least take a look at more replays. It makes little sense for someone on a team, who's earning money through streaming (without maphacks iirc) to maphack on a single showmatch worth 0 money. But your response, unlike a ton of others in this thread, is actually very correct in this case.
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On June 07 2012 20:54 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:50 starcraft911 wrote:On June 07 2012 20:48 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:46 ZenithM wrote:On June 07 2012 20:35 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:31 ZenithM wrote:
I've spotted this toilet guy basically since its first post (something about peace on the earth). Since then he's been defending Spades no matter what. Very touching.
I gotta admit that for now nobody has found anything 100% hackish. Kinda weird considering all that's been investigated. I'm not defending Spades, again, I'll repeat myself for you; I don't care about Spades, if he's a hacker, then fuck him, if not, I think it's only fair that we don't jump to conclusions, which has been my stance in this from the beginning. Please stop contradicting my initial statements. Did you find an explanation about the huge discrepancies in mechanics (especially regarding handling the fog of war) that Spades displays in his ladder games and during the showmatch with LucifroN. If you want something stronger than that, Spades is probably innocent for all eternity and is free to map hack to his heart's content... Do you think he would use something as obvious as a blink hack like a Protoss GM wannabe? He's not that dumb, of course he will have used something relatively well concealed. Yup, we did. Page 200-275. Yes, I do, because that would be proof, and I would then be okay with saying that he's a hacker. His not looking at the fog is proof he hacks just as his failure to click enemy units in the past was proof. He's a hacker. Spades said that he does everything on the minimap. Scans, checking for expos, scouting... Incredibly unlikely, but possible. The thing that really makes me believe he is a hacker is his reaction. He left his team and now he's nonstop practicing for MLG. If you're an exposed maphacker going to a no-hack zone, there isn't much left to do.
While I agree with you, leaving his team would be an admiral decision if he was innocent as well. He can always re sign if his name is cleared and this avoids bad publicity for his team
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On June 07 2012 20:56 SkelA wrote:
This is not fun anymore.
Yeah, not as many Spades QQ and infinite cycles of people finding "proof" -> proof being proved wrong -> people arguing for 5 pages about it -> repeat.
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On June 07 2012 20:54 Apollonius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:49 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:45 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:41 Apollonius wrote:On June 07 2012 20:35 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:33 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:31 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:29 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:24 Integra wrote:On June 07 2012 20:18 toiletCAT wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, I'm a troll because I don't jump onto the "well, there's no evidence but we think he's hacking"-bandwagon. we never said that you were a troll cause of that you don't agree, the reason is cause you seem to post in all Spades related threads 24 hours a day LOL. How the hell do you have time to make 76 posts a day? it's freaking insane, don't you get bored? I mean there are only so many variations you can type " not enough evidence". Do you get payed by the hour? If yes then I bet people here will pay you even more if you stopped! lol. Let's see if you can get your daily post count up to a 100! I can post where ever I want, man. And trust me, I'm really, really tired of this, I mean really. The only people left in this are people like you who likes to accuse others of being trolls or Spades himself, which is ridiculous. I honestly can't take your "funny comments" seriously, because your only purpose is to spread the hate from one person onto another. So yeah, who are you really? You're only allowed one account on tl Had a TL account over a year ago, but I forgot it. My IP should confirm this, so I'm not really intimidated by all those "omg smurfz!! 77cry" comments. I don't think anyone is trying to intimidate you. Your actions are just extremely strange. Do they even sell starcraft 2 in qatar? His actions are in no way strange. As someone on this page mentioned, no amount of smoke adds up to a fire. I detest maphackers, and they remove validity from a game that I love, but having a bunch of "suspicious actions" is not enough to burn one's entire way of life and occupational success. Regardless of who toiletCAT is, we can't just crucify another person. This isn't supposed to be a witchhunt, but a clear proof. The fact that even one pro was willing to protect Spades should force us to wait for a conclusive proof. Not saying he's innocent, but there's always a chance. Think how unfair this would be for Spades if the 1-5% chance that he is not hacking turned out to be true. Think about how you'd feel if your job got defamed and you suddenly lost your ability to make money based on inconclusive evidence that a mob of (mainly) inferior players believe is "likely." Then consider talking about this with a clear head. I agree with all of this for the record, I think you might have my posts and others mixed up a bit in the last few pages Edit: didn't read properly, I agree with everything except the random hypocritical keyboard warrior that is toiletcat How am I hypocritical? Rofl. Guys, lets not worry about other people in this thread. For all real significance, it doesn't matter if Spades or another pro or even some random Joe makes the comments that toiletCAT did. It's the idea that matters. We need to worry about the state of the community when someone in good standing can have his entire job torn down around him in the matter of a few days even if we never had complete proof that he's a cheater. We may have a high suggestion, and suspicious actions make it seem obvious, sure, but let's give him every last chance we can get and be rigorous. Let's not get sidetracked over who's making the points, people. Focus on what we've done, and what we should have done. If I were a sponsor, right now I'd be shivering not just because of Spades, but because of the community's ferocity. I'd be scared to invest in a player now.
This is someone that has resorted to cheating in the past. You make it sound like this is a completely innocent player that has absolutely no reason to be receiving such scrutiny. And once again, finally, how in the world can you watch those replays and not realize something is up. People need to wise up and stop defending a cheater, cheaters have no place in esports.
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To be clear, the only thing that bothers me in this thread is people asking for it to be closed. I think the evidence is clearly on the side of being a hacker, but I don't mind if others argue the opposite. What I do mind is people saying that the discussion is over and the thread should be closed.
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On June 07 2012 20:53 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:46 Apollonius wrote:On June 07 2012 20:39 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:36 Flyingcookie wrote:This Thread shows why the all relevant Data Serverside in League of Legends development was a good decision btt: On June 07 2012 20:22 toiletCAT wrote:And how is that relevant? It's not obvious that Spades is hacking, we've proved you wrong. When will you give up? Read the last 100 pages, we've literally debunked every single evidence you've presented. Every single piece of evidence. Your remaining arguments is "omg, toiletcat iz teh trollz!! he iz probably spades?!!!" What? After reading almost all and watching the replay the possibility that he hacked is way higher than that he don't. Of course there CAN'T BE 100% evidence but the sum in the games and statements make it really clear thats very, very likely! Exactly! The only thing that has been debunked is methods of proof. There has been no convincing Evidence that he didn't hack either and no good explanations for the strange decisions he makes in the game. If you watched the replays they immediately ring alarm bells. I'm not saying he's 100% hacking but absolutely this should be continued to be looked at. You're telling people to give up toilet when there's less evidence for your side. You're Completely hypocritical It's not what side has less evidence that should win. Regardless of whether convincing evidence can be found that he is innocent, he will be innocent until proven guilty - I'm not saying we should drop the issue, but we're supposed to keep an open mind. It seems that people like you have already made up your mind, and are starting to use ad hominem attacks on other people (like toiletCAT and Spades) rather than addressing the issue at hand. And btw, you're someone who'd probably like a due process of law if you'd committed murder. You'd probably not want people to say, "Well, he could have done it, lets put him on deathrow" - well, that's essentially what happened to Spades career in the last couple of days. Yeah. And people like you are the true hypocrites. We, as accusers, must have all the burden of proof. I think you gravely misunderstand what I was saying. Toiletcat told me to give up, when his arguement was no better. I'm not sure how that makes me a hypocrit. There is no reason that people who believe he is hacking should give up, and no reason for the defense to give up either
I give up because of the amount of idiots posting in this thread, to be honest. I don't care about Spades, or what happens to him.
It's sad to see that after all the work that has been put into debunking the evidence, which is in everyone's interest, is being ignored by comments that 300 pages later say "herp derp, he's sending a Medivac to a base, he had not spotted!! hackzuuu obviousuuuu!!!"
Even us "defenders" are on your side. You think we're defending Spades, when in reality we want him judged as much as you do. If he's a hacker, then damn right, he deserves his career ruined. But it's not wrong of us to take a step back and wait for further notice, in case we don't want to jump to conclusions, like many others do.
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On June 07 2012 20:59 Neurosis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:54 Apollonius wrote:On June 07 2012 20:49 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:45 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:41 Apollonius wrote:On June 07 2012 20:35 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:33 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:31 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:29 toiletCAT wrote:On June 07 2012 20:24 Integra wrote:
[quote]
we never said that you were a troll cause of that you don't agree, the reason is cause you seem to post in all Spades related threads 24 hours a day LOL. How the hell do you have time to make 76 posts a day? it's freaking insane, don't you get bored? I mean there are only so many variations you can type " not enough evidence". Do you get payed by the hour? If yes then I bet people here will pay you even more if you stopped! lol. Let's see if you can get your daily post count up to a 100!
I can post where ever I want, man. And trust me, I'm really, really tired of this, I mean really. The only people left in this are people like you who likes to accuse others of being trolls or Spades himself, which is ridiculous. I honestly can't take your "funny comments" seriously, because your only purpose is to spread the hate from one person onto another. So yeah, who are you really? You're only allowed one account on tl Had a TL account over a year ago, but I forgot it. My IP should confirm this, so I'm not really intimidated by all those "omg smurfz!! 77cry" comments. I don't think anyone is trying to intimidate you. Your actions are just extremely strange. Do they even sell starcraft 2 in qatar? His actions are in no way strange. As someone on this page mentioned, no amount of smoke adds up to a fire. I detest maphackers, and they remove validity from a game that I love, but having a bunch of "suspicious actions" is not enough to burn one's entire way of life and occupational success. Regardless of who toiletCAT is, we can't just crucify another person. This isn't supposed to be a witchhunt, but a clear proof. The fact that even one pro was willing to protect Spades should force us to wait for a conclusive proof. Not saying he's innocent, but there's always a chance. Think how unfair this would be for Spades if the 1-5% chance that he is not hacking turned out to be true. Think about how you'd feel if your job got defamed and you suddenly lost your ability to make money based on inconclusive evidence that a mob of (mainly) inferior players believe is "likely." Then consider talking about this with a clear head. I agree with all of this for the record, I think you might have my posts and others mixed up a bit in the last few pages Edit: didn't read properly, I agree with everything except the random hypocritical keyboard warrior that is toiletcat How am I hypocritical? Rofl. Guys, lets not worry about other people in this thread. For all real significance, it doesn't matter if Spades or another pro or even some random Joe makes the comments that toiletCAT did. It's the idea that matters. We need to worry about the state of the community when someone in good standing can have his entire job torn down around him in the matter of a few days even if we never had complete proof that he's a cheater. We may have a high suggestion, and suspicious actions make it seem obvious, sure, but let's give him every last chance we can get and be rigorous. Let's not get sidetracked over who's making the points, people. Focus on what we've done, and what we should have done. If I were a sponsor, right now I'd be shivering not just because of Spades, but because of the community's ferocity. I'd be scared to invest in a player now. This is someone that has resorted to cheating in the past. You make it sound like this is a completely innocent player that has absolutely no reason to be receiving such scrutiny. And once again, finally, how in the world can you watch those replays and not realize something is up. People need to wise up and stop defending a cheater, cheaters have no place in esports.
Most of us aren't trying to defend Spades, we're just trying to prove him guilty beyond any possible doubt. 
EDIT: ToiletCat beat me to it
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On June 07 2012 21:01 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:53 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:46 Apollonius wrote:On June 07 2012 20:39 MateShade wrote:On June 07 2012 20:36 Flyingcookie wrote:This Thread shows why the all relevant Data Serverside in League of Legends development was a good decision btt: On June 07 2012 20:22 toiletCAT wrote:And how is that relevant? It's not obvious that Spades is hacking, we've proved you wrong. When will you give up? Read the last 100 pages, we've literally debunked every single evidence you've presented. Every single piece of evidence. Your remaining arguments is "omg, toiletcat iz teh trollz!! he iz probably spades?!!!" What? After reading almost all and watching the replay the possibility that he hacked is way higher than that he don't. Of course there CAN'T BE 100% evidence but the sum in the games and statements make it really clear thats very, very likely! Exactly! The only thing that has been debunked is methods of proof. There has been no convincing Evidence that he didn't hack either and no good explanations for the strange decisions he makes in the game. If you watched the replays they immediately ring alarm bells. I'm not saying he's 100% hacking but absolutely this should be continued to be looked at. You're telling people to give up toilet when there's less evidence for your side. You're Completely hypocritical It's not what side has less evidence that should win. Regardless of whether convincing evidence can be found that he is innocent, he will be innocent until proven guilty - I'm not saying we should drop the issue, but we're supposed to keep an open mind. It seems that people like you have already made up your mind, and are starting to use ad hominem attacks on other people (like toiletCAT and Spades) rather than addressing the issue at hand. And btw, you're someone who'd probably like a due process of law if you'd committed murder. You'd probably not want people to say, "Well, he could have done it, lets put him on deathrow" - well, that's essentially what happened to Spades career in the last couple of days. Yeah. And people like you are the true hypocrites. We, as accusers, must have all the burden of proof. I think you gravely misunderstand what I was saying. Toiletcat told me to give up, when his arguement was no better. I'm not sure how that makes me a hypocrit. There is no reason that people who believe he is hacking should give up, and no reason for the defense to give up either I give up because of the amount of idiots posting in this thread, to be honest. I don't care about Spades, or what happens to him. It's sad to see that after all the work that has been put into debunking the evidence, which is in everyone's interest, is being ignored by comments that 300 pages later say "herp derp, he's sending a Medivac to a base, he had not spotted!! hackzuuu obviousuuuu!!!" Even us "defenders" are on your side. You think we're defending Spades, when in reality we want him judged as much as you do. If he's a hacker, then damn right, he deserves his career ruined. But it's not wrong of us to take a step back and wait for further notice, in case we don't want to jump to conclusions, like many others do.
Then stop acting like the discussion is over and we should all go away when a tentative proof is found unreliable!
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EPT
