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United States720 Posts
I've been against Vivax from the beginning and I've seen nothing to change my suspicions. Just want to add my statements to the other bodies of work.
His continued odd statement like these:
If there's a majority the town can get without fear of hitting blue, it's Ange777.
that leave me scratching my head. It feels like he was trying to rush along an Ange77 bandwagon lynch based purely on the fact she was lurking. And when she stops and starts contributing more?
And frankly, even if Ange777 would turn out to be town, all this last hour confusion is thanks to her and the decision to play games when she can't be properly active in them. You don't join a game of starcraft to go afk while you play chess either, then to come back asking others for help when the enemy is in your base, blaming one of the guys who was playing actively.
If you are town, you should be really aware of the bad impact you are having on this game. I would frankly still lynch you just for that.
And now activity is construed as a scumread. It's conflicting and already shows him putting distance on his Ange77 bandwagon that did not fall through.
You have had only weak reads and joined both bandwagons to create a lynch. You continue to deflect accusations in a poor manner and you will have my vote.
I think it's really misguided to focus on my posts when there is much more reliable information to get from sukis' posts, you look for mafiavibes from me when there are behaviors of a confirmed mafia towards other players at your disposal.
##Vote: Vivax
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Regarding suki:
How is the reasoning odd?
Suki posted more, that's all. What made me so suspicious about Ange777 is her timing when she posted something substantial for the first time. Read on.
Ange:
Look at Ange's posts before her comeback, she even announced she would contribute and didn't do so until there was a real danger of being lynched cause town was about to lynch the most lurking person in that game.
Here she suddenly appeared, saying that we might hit blue as only inital defense, and apologized for the absence saying what kept her busy.
Then I was just pretty sure that it's mafia behavior to be silent all game and just show up when you're about to get killed, throwing accusations at three different players (me, unforgiven and suki).
I was fearing that through town's confusion it wouldn't come to a day 1 lynch, so I preferred to stick with my initial target cause I believed it was more likely to get a lynch on Ange777.
It was Xatalos who made the first vote on her, I was third after miltonkram. You are making such a big deal out of the fact that I believed that suki was town, most of the town did (except for Eishi_Ki and unforgiven and later Ange777).
She admitted having a bad impact on that game with the sudden return reading scum to me. Town was about to set the vote, and I didn't want to vote for someone I didn't believe to be mafia unless it was the only possible way to get a Day 1 lynch, which I announced from the beginning.
Then heist: Wtf, you mention what you believe without even saying what should be wrong about that scumslip, he says he doesn't believe suki to be mafia and 12 minutes later he contradicts himself by saying it looks like I'm bussing.
Also, bad redefinition, my entire response was: 'Your word choice is strange cause it contradicts your official beliefs'.
Also, you completely ignore the time of the post, i posted that before s0lstice died, but you say I use that to push after s0lstice's death.
I understand you don't have a good overview of my actions cause you just joined the game, but you should really read everything if you plan on going for such accusations of single players. You will find all kind of suspicious things about other players if you go with the premise that they are guilty and look close enough.
Eishi_Ki:
Contributing and boost my filter? You realize I was the first to push the case and barely anyone believed Eishi to be scum? How exactly should that help me as mafia? Taking a hard stance?Going against the grain? None of these helps mafia.
Eishi joined in against me after two posts from heist and O.Golden, accusing me for townreading sciberbia too early.
Now that you know that sciberbia is town with very high probability, why should I defend him as mafia? Townreading him actually was against the mafia's interest, as you see with suki's next post doubting my read. Then heist and O.Golden attacked me.
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Sorry guys, but I'm really busy today.
Where I stand:
I strongly prefer a lynch of heist to a lynch of vivax. I urge you all to look at the case on heist and consider voting heist if you find him scummier than vivax. I will check back into the thread shortly before the deadline, and I'll change my vote if and only if it is needed to prevent NL. Other than that, I can't really contribute in the next 5 hours. I'll catch up with the thread after the deadline. Again, sorry.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
On June 05 2012 01:27 Vivax wrote:
Regarding suki:
How is the reasoning odd?
Suki posted more, that's all. What made me so suspicious about Ange777 is her timing when she posted something substantial for the first time. Read on.
Ange:
Look at Ange's posts before her comeback, she even announced she would contribute and didn't do so until there was a real danger of being lynched cause town was about to lynch the most lurking person in that game.
Here she suddenly appeared, saying that we might hit blue as only inital defense, and apologized for the absence saying what kept her busy.
Then I was just pretty sure that it's mafia behavior to be silent all game and just show up when you're about to get killed, throwing accusations at three different players (me, unforgiven and suki).
I was fearing that through town's confusion it wouldn't come to a day 1 lynch, so I preferred to stick with my initial target cause I believed it was more likely to get a lynch on Ange777.
It was Xatalos who made the first vote on her, I was third after miltonkram. You are making such a big deal out of the fact that I believed that suki was town, most of the town did (except for Eishi_Ki and unforgiven and later Ange777).
She admitted having a bad impact on that game with the sudden return reading scum to me. Town was about to set the vote, and I didn't want to vote for someone I didn't believe to be mafia unless it was the only possible way to get a Day 1 lynch, which I announced from the beginning.
Then heist: Wtf, you mention what you believe without even saying what should be wrong about that scumslip, he says he doesn't believe suki to be mafia and 12 minutes later he contradicts himself by saying it looks like I'm bussing.
Also, bad redefinition, my entire response was: 'Your word choice is strange cause it contradicts your official beliefs'.
Also, you completely ignore the time of the post, i posted that before s0lstice died, but you say I use that to push after s0lstice's death.
I understand you don't have a good overview of my actions cause you just joined the game, but you should really read everything if you plan on going for such accusations of single players. You will find all kind of suspicious things about other players if you go with the premise that they are guilty and look close enough.
Eishi_Ki:
Contributing and boost my filter? You realize I was the first to push the case and barely anyone believed Eishi to be scum? How exactly should that help me as mafia? Taking a hard stance?Going against the grain? None of these helps mafia.
Eishi joined in against me after two posts from heist and O.Golden, accusing me for townreading sciberbia too early.
Now that you know that sciberbia is town with very high probability, why should I defend him as mafia? Townreading him actually was against the mafia's interest, as you see with suki's next post doubting my read. Then heist and O.Golden attacked me.
I do not understand this post. You keep trying to discredit ange, you keep to your flawed logic in regards of scum-criteria to explain your read on suki (who was not that active anyway) and nobody was as "sure" as you that suki was town, that is the thing standing out not that others had a townread on him as well.
Regarding your paragraph about heist:
I still do not see a "scumslip" in that particular single post. And your response cannot really be counted as "pushing" a case. You actively started to pursue heist only after solstice's post after the lynch.
You will have to do better than that to convince me of your innocence. What about actually looking at the cases against you and try to explain your stances and actions in regards to them instead of just random mudthrowing?
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
also btw, superouman you still here? What about some witty one-liners and a random vote instead of lurking all the time?
If superouman fails to vote, will we get another replacement or a modkill?
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On June 05 2012 01:27 Vivax wrote:
Regarding suki:
How is the reasoning odd?
Suki posted more, that's all. What made me so suspicious about Ange777 is her timing when she posted something substantial for the first time. Read on.
That's all I wanted to know. The reason it's odd is that by the time you posted that statement, Ange had been so active after returning that, in terms of pure filter length (a bad proxy for contribution, I'll admit), Ange had contributed more. Being concerned with the timing is fine, and perfectly reasonable - heck, Ange even admits that the timing is bad for her. But I find the idea that Suki had contributed more odd, as Ange produced more in a few hours than Suki had all cycle.
Ange:
Look at Ange's posts before her comeback, she even announced she would contribute and didn't do so until there was a real danger of being lynched cause town was about to lynch the most lurking person in that game.
Here she suddenly appeared, saying that we might hit blue as only inital defense, and apologized for the absence saying what kept her busy.
...
She admitted having a bad impact on that game with the sudden return reading scum to me. Town was about to set the vote, and I didn't want to vote for someone I didn't believe to be mafia unless it was the only possible way to get a Day 1 lynch, which I announced from the beginning.
Again, it sort of comes down to whether you were tunneling or are mafia. I tunneled super hard in a past game as town, pushed lynches on nothing but townies, so I know it can happen. But the way that the Suki push and Ange's return happened, both are valid ways to read your actions. Yes, Ange could have been coming bad to save her ass. But she also made posts saying she was lurking, was going to have to lurk a little longer, and then when she returned brought some analysis and actively had a good impact. Even if Suki had flipped town, Ange DID come back and have some sort of good impact, because it got a lot of discussion going. So I just don't like the way you hung on to Ange having a "bad impact," where she meant she had negatively impact town in the past, and you were unwilling to see that she was no longer doing so.
Then heist: Wtf, you mention what you believe without even saying what should be wrong about that scumslip, he says he doesn't believe suki to be mafia and 12 minutes later he contradicts himself by saying it looks like I'm bussing.
Also, bad redefinition, my entire response was: 'Your word choice is strange cause it contradicts your official beliefs'.
Also, you completely ignore the time of the post, i posted that before s0lstice died, but you say I use that to push after s0lstice's death.
I'll address this below
I understand you don't have a good overview of my actions cause you just joined the game, but you should really read everything if you plan on going for such accusations of single players. You will find all kind of suspicious things about other players if you go with the premise that they are guilty and look close enough.
I don't have the best overview, no. However, I have read the whole game through twice, and I've been poking through filters as well. Heck, the player I'm replacing found you scummy. So it's not purely a replacement thing.
Eishi_Ki:
Contributing and boost my filter? You realize I was the first to push the case and barely anyone believed Eishi to be scum? How exactly should that help me as mafia? Taking a hard stance?Going against the grain? None of these helps mafia.
Eishi joined in against me after two posts from heist and O.Golden, accusing me for townreading sciberbia too early.
That bit's just a thought I had. The way in which you tunneled him, then swapped to tunneling Ange, just feels a little off. Don't entirely know what to do with it, but you got a lot of mileage out of posting about him and then promptly decided he was town.
Now that you know that sciberbia is town with very high probability, why should I defend him as mafia? Townreading him actually was against the mafia's interest, as you see with suki's next post doubting my read. Then heist and O.Golden attacked me.
I don't read much at all into the first few moments of the game. He pushed a no-lynch, because he found it mathematically superior. If mafia chose to jump all over that statement and push it for all of D1 as a reason to lynch, they would have looked ridiculous.
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On Heist -
I absolutely agree with the portion of solstice's case concerning his vote. The move to Suki late isn't as odd to me as the move to unforgiven in between, because with the candidates being ange, suki, unforgiven, and ange looking better and better, unforgiven WOULD be the way to go.
Beyond the way his vote moved, I'm not finding him particularly scummy. Still leaning Vivax.
To the extent that we're discussing this post:On June 02 2012 06:17 heist wrote:
If it's blatantly rediculous, DO NOT DO IT. You are almost confident suki is town, why are you placing your vote on him??? We still have a bit of time, closer to an hour. Now it just looks like you are bussing.
I have no idea how this is a scumslip, or scummy at all. The contradiction that some folks are seeing is that if he thinks Suki is town, then bussing is the wrong word, because you can't bus a townie. But that doesn't matter at all. That's not a scumslip. That's him misusing a term.
He's NOT misusing that term though if he's saying what he seems to be saying. That it is a bad idea to vote for someone you think is town. If making a comment about X bussing Y when you think Y is town is a scumslip, then what should we make of actively placing your vote on Y when you think Y is town? If you read it this way, it makes sense and it looks plenty townie. He's calling Vivax out on voting a townread, and then giving a possible explanation for Vivax's behavior.
In all honesty, while some may find the last sentence of his post scummy, I'm more inclined to focus on the first couple sentences, where he's reprimanding Vivax for voting a townread.
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On June 05 2012 03:04 austinmcc wrote:
He's NOT misusing that term though if he's saying what he seems to be saying. That it is a bad idea to vote for someone you think is town. If making a comment about X bussing Y when you think Y is town is a scumslip, then what should we make of actively placing your vote on Y when you think Y is town? If you read it this way, it makes sense and it looks plenty townie. He's calling Vivax out on voting a townread, and then giving a possible explanation for Vivax's behavior.
In all honesty, while some may find the last sentence of his post scummy, I'm more inclined to focus on the first couple sentences, where he's reprimanding Vivax for voting a townread.
I placed the vote on Y cause we needed a day 1 lynch and there were two votes left, in the end those were from me and heist as last vote. I could have kept suki alive if I wanted to. And i could have voted after heist.
I know my defense of suki looks scummy, but no mafia would defend one of theirs directly, then vote for them and reveal the information. It's a loss-loss situation for scum.
I'll just play the scenario through with the assumption i'm scum:
I could have defended suki, then stop the lynch, get a night 1 kill and 1 more day to try and get another lynch target than us two.
Heist wouldn't have voted for him anyway without my vote. His main suspect was superouman at that point, so he was playing into my hands.
Instead I decided to get him killed, not just bussing one of my faction, but also ensuring that all would suspect me upon that.
Then I would try to incriminate heist and O.Golden, alongside with s0lstice, just to decide and get him killed, my ally in these cases???
S0lstice would have helped me push the case further and i would have been able to deflect attention from me, and then me and another mafioso just kill him?
GG Mafia
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On June 05 2012 02:27 ShiaoPi wrote:
also btw, superouman you still here? What about some witty one-liners and a random vote instead of lurking all the time?
If superouman fails to vote, will we get another replacement or a modkill?
modkill. I like replacing people in if I can but I can't just replace half the game in and out all the time...
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
On June 05 2012 04:22 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 03:04 austinmcc wrote:
He's NOT misusing that term though if he's saying what he seems to be saying. That it is a bad idea to vote for someone you think is town. If making a comment about X bussing Y when you think Y is town is a scumslip, then what should we make of actively placing your vote on Y when you think Y is town? If you read it this way, it makes sense and it looks plenty townie. He's calling Vivax out on voting a townread, and then giving a possible explanation for Vivax's behavior.
In all honesty, while some may find the last sentence of his post scummy, I'm more inclined to focus on the first couple sentences, where he's reprimanding Vivax for voting a townread.
I placed the vote on Y cause we needed a day 1 lynch and there were two votes left, in the end those were from me and heist as last vote. I could have kept suki alive if I wanted to. And i could have voted after heist. I know my defense of suki looks scummy, but no mafia would defend one of theirs directly, then vote for them and reveal the information. It's a loss-loss situation for scum. Show nested quote +I'll just play the scenario through with the assumption i'm scum:
I could have defended suki, then stop the lynch, get a night 1 kill and 1 more day to try and get another lynch target than us two.
Heist wouldn't have voted for him anyway without my vote. His main suspect was superouman at that point, so he was playing into my hands.
Instead I decided to get him killed, not just bussing one of my faction, but also ensuring that all would suspect me upon that.
Then I would try to incriminate heist and O.Golden, alongside with s0lstice, just to decide and get him killed, my ally in these cases???
S0lstice would have helped me push the case further and i would have been able to deflect attention from me, and then me and another mafioso just kill him?
GG Mafia
Could you please stop with WIFOM and defend yourself instead?
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On June 03 2012 16:03 sciberbia wrote:
Does anyone actually think heist is townie?
I am aware that ShiaoPi has a town-read on him, but does anyone else? And ShiaoPi, would you please detail why you think he is townie?
Wanted to respond to this, since I've been calling out Vivax and wanted to make sure I looked equally hard at heist. Will try not to rehash too much of what others have posted, as I feel my posts have been too long and I'm hoping shorter posts = more people reading = some discussion before the deadline. I know I got moving late in the day, but it's been dead.
On June 01 2012 08:46 heist wrote:
Townies not being sure of each other Day 1 is natural. There is almost no information to go. You, on the other hand, are almost completely convinced of Sciberbia's alignment almost from the first minute of this game. Again, this lynch is not a matter of probability. Our goal isn't to eliminate suspects by placing them in pro-town status and "shooting blindly" into the rest. Our goal is to actively find suspicious, scummy people. I think this is crucial. Do not try to find townies, try to find mafia. Townies not being sure of each is much better than blindly following one player, being so seduced that you will automatically disregard everyone who attempts to argue with you or that person.
This portion of one of heist's posts bugs me. He makes a decent point about not blindly sheeping other townies, but that's a separate matter altogether from telling everyone not to try and find townies. I get mixed messages from this post, the don't sheep is pro-town, but not trying to find townies is a bad idea imo.
His voting has been covered, and doesn't look good. He admits finding both Ange and Suki town, admits voting for town, doesn't really try and sugarcoat it. Which I like, but it doesn't change the voting pattern.
Frankly, with a close look, he doesn't look all that great. The solstice NK doesn't do anything for me but WIFOM - either solstice is dangerous for good posting and finding heist scummy, or he's a kill to get a mislynch from town onto heist. But heist ain't rosy.
ShiaoPi, I tunneled hard our last game together and it bit me in the ass. I still think Vivax is scummy, but heist can be read pretty scummy as well. Could you take a step back for a second and give me 1-2 things about Vivax that make him look townie, and 1-2 things about heist that make him look scummy?
Vivax, I'm not convinced golden/ShiaoPi is scummy. Lurking as a mafia tactic, fine. Lurking your way to a replacement/modkill, not so fine. And I've generally agreed with most of what ShiaoPi's had to say. So, hypothetically, if heist is scum but ShiaoPi isn't, who would be your read for the last scum?
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@ Xatalos
---snip
On June 04 2012 21:23 Xatalos wrote:
Also, what about my response to your suspicions? You haven't addressed that at all. I want to see if it was a misguided reaction to me calling you out or a deflection to move attention away from yourself.
I'm not entirely satisfied with your defense of your actions. You deflect attention away from the points I was trying to make about you, mainly that your filter has a lot of filler content (e.g. lists of town reads, coaching players, policy discussion). Filler content is fine early on, but as we get later into the game it actively distracts from scumhunting all the while appearing like you're contributing more than you are. Does that make sense? Perhaps I didn't make those points strongly enough. I really do feel like there is a case to be made against you. I find it odd that heist and Vivax are the ones who've gotten the most flak for their vote switches and people have been content to ignore you.
Moving on to real D2 lynch candidates.
I don't support the case on heist. If the option is between a no lynch or him I will choose to add my vote to him, but I think Vivax is the stronger case. I can't believe that people seem to have taken his comments on the s0Lstice night kill seriously.And guess who his case was: heist. -_-
This is exactly what scum would say if they were trying to promote a mislynch based on a night kill. If heist is scum, he shot s0Lstice to reduce pressure on himself. If Vivax is scum, he shot s0Lstice to make it look like heist was trying to reduce pressure on himself. This degenerates into WIFOM really fast, but it seems that some of the town have given the point credence.
Other than that Vivax's defense has not been great and has been centered around how active he is. This reminds me of Eishi_Ki's comments on "Hollywooding" in poker. What are some of the traits that define Vivax's play? Hyper-aggresiveness, activity, and almost complete assurance in some fairly weak reads. My theory is that he came into the game with just such a playstyle in mind, making himself the opposite of the typical scummy player. I think he has overdone it by taking it to an extreme. All of us townies have felt doubt in our reads, correct? As town, we are each dealing with a game of incomplete information. Vivax switched votes quite a bit toward the D1 deadline all the while saying, "I know I'm right, I know I'm right!" This is not the way a townie would play. A town player would admit to possibly being wrong and/or convinced of a better case. It all reeks of attempting to keep up a facade.
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EBWOP: Meant to include this in the post.
##Vote: Vivax
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
@austin:
Some minor stuff on heist is especially his lastpost, he claims to add more to the case on vivax, but it is pretty much sheeping what was outlined in ange's huge case. The other thing would be the voting pattern prior day1lynch, but I believe Xatalos more fishy in that regard as he was the first to switch to unforgiven while agreeing with ange.
If you only look at vivax' first half of day 1 it actually reads as pretty townie, but come the lynch-discussion he just goes totally off the charts. So maybe there is a slight chance of him being a bad townie.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
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I am confident that town will win anyway even if you lynch the wrong one. Once that's done, I hope that you focus on the real scum, I don't feel the points I made in my defense are weak, but it's easy to think a player is guilty when most of the information posted is about him, and day 2 has been mostly about me.
You're doing the error of 'lynching the most controversial or outspoken player'. But feel free to make it, since Shiao and heist will have a lot of trouble nevertheless, cause I will flip town and their cases are extremely one-sided (towards me).
Just mind that they have another kill at their disposal, I would opt for sciberbia if I were mafia right now.
Was a fun first game, guys. But I need to work on my strat.
##Unvote heist
##Vote Vivax
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
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On June 05 2012 04:42 austinmcc wrote:
Vivax, I'm not convinced golden/ShiaoPi is scummy. Lurking as a mafia tactic, fine. Lurking your way to a replacement/modkill, not so fine. And I've generally agreed with most of what ShiaoPi's had to say. So, hypothetically, if heist is scum but ShiaoPi isn't, who would be your read for the last scum?
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On June 05 2012 05:57 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 04:42 austinmcc wrote:
Vivax, I'm not convinced golden/ShiaoPi is scummy. Lurking as a mafia tactic, fine. Lurking your way to a replacement/modkill, not so fine. And I've generally agreed with most of what ShiaoPi's had to say. So, hypothetically, if heist is scum but ShiaoPi isn't, who would be your read for the last scum?
If heist is scum, superouman would probably be town, since superouman was the guy heist voted for before he switched to suki after me.
But to be blunt, I don't see other players than them who could be scum.
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just got home, im really sorry, i saw a lot of votes going to vivax, let me read the thread
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EPT
