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On April 25 2012 22:23 Ace wrote:
Neither would a normal Townie. Everyone regardless of alignment is going to try and prove their innocent.
The problem with your thinking is "lets not lynch a player who isn't defending himself". I mean...come on. How does this even make sense? If the case against Zentor is he actually did Scummy things AND he isn't bothering to defend himself then how do you figure he is innocent?
Lets try this another way.
2 players on trial. Both of them have rock solid cases that show they have done things that more likely than not Scum would do during the course of the game.
Player A shows up to defend himself from all accusations.
Player B doesn't show up, but earlier in the trial promised to offer future proof about other players being Scum. Oh and he voted for himself.
You want us to ignore Player B and find Players C and D?
I used meta reasons, Zentor did this crap in SoAF as well, but you said "normal" townie, what do you consider normal?
Second point: How does Player A defend himself? My point is that Player B is acting not normally, not what "scum" would have the balls to do.
Anyway, suspicions on phagga nao, unvoting s&b in my next post.
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A normal Townie = a person trying to actually survive a lynch.
Why does How player A defends himself even matter here? It could be the worst defense of all time, but the fact that he even tried in stark contrast to a player who doesn't goes a long way.
Really, your defense is "I've seen him do this one time before, and I don't believe Scum would do Scummy things so blatantly."
Where as some of us have deemed his behavior Scummy, so then yes more than likely he is Scum.
Screw it, let's lynch people for being too town. There is no way an actual Townie would have the balls to do that.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
On April 25 2012 22:35 Ace wrote:
A normal Townie = a person trying to actually survive a lynch.
Why does How player A defends himself even matter here? It could be the worst defense of all time, but the fact that he even tried in stark contrast to a player who doesn't goes a long way.
Really, your defense is "I've seen him do this one time before, and I don't believe Scum would do Scummy things so blatantly."
Where as some of us have deemed his behavior Scummy, so then yes more than likely he is Scum.
Screw it, let's lynch people for being too town. There is no way an actual Townie would have the balls to do that.
Right. The defence of Zentor here is just pure wifom. Would scum act so scummy? It's too scummy to be scum, so therefore he must be town. But what if he knows that he's behaving too scummy to be scum and therefore he looks townie. Then all of a sudden he could be scum again because he grasps this. Ad infinitum. This is practically a paragon of WIFOM, pure and simple.
If we leave the WIFOM that we can't possibly resolve (we can always go an iteration further...) then what are we left with? His scummy behaviour, his anti-town posting. This is the evidence we can rely on, and it's why he's probably scum.
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On April 25 2012 22:39 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 22:35 Ace wrote:
A normal Townie = a person trying to actually survive a lynch.
Why does How player A defends himself even matter here? It could be the worst defense of all time, but the fact that he even tried in stark contrast to a player who doesn't goes a long way.
Really, your defense is "I've seen him do this one time before, and I don't believe Scum would do Scummy things so blatantly."
Where as some of us have deemed his behavior Scummy, so then yes more than likely he is Scum.
Screw it, let's lynch people for being too town. There is no way an actual Townie would have the balls to do that. Right. The defence of Zentor here is just pure wifom. Would scum act so scummy? It's too scummy to be scum, so therefore he must be town. But what if he knows that he's behaving too scummy to be scum and therefore he looks townie. Then all of a sudden he could be scum again because he grasps this. Ad infinitum. This is practically a paragon of WIFOM, pure and simple. If we leave the WIFOM that we can't possibly resolve (we can always go an iteration further...) then what are we left with? His scummy behaviour, his anti-town posting. This is the evidence we can rely on, and it's why he's probably scum.
![[image loading]](http://lh6.ggpht.com/_zGnH6HWaAi0/TM0mn1bZ40I/AAAAAAAAIZo/yPnrAbjoH-A/inception_3sec.jpg)
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Hmm, unvoting s&B, suspecting phagga. strongandbig is town, IMO.
Snarfs I'm waiting for his response.
##Unvote: strongandbig
Blue's journey to phagga's first 4 post's
Post #1
Can't get a read of this one, simply telling that he'll read will be decided on his next post
Post #2
Hmm, recycling points
On April 23 2012 16:22 phagga wrote:ok, catching up. game mechanics stuff:
- Hydras should sign. Everything else lowers transparency for town.
- After reading all the pros and cons, I'd support a mason claim day 2. Reason: Many Vets + 2 masons = too many targets to handle for scum. D3 might be too late because of counterclaim (depends on nightkills and SK situation).On to more important stuff in no particular order: Mr. Zentor: I don't like how his " really long post" was actually not long at all, but only full of quotes. If we ignore the quotes, the post was quite short. So why announce it as long? His case on prplhz was weak, and when asked a second time why he thought that prplhz was still scummy, he never answered. His style is unnecessarily aggresive. VisceraEyes: His Filter shows 5 ingame posts, which is more than I have, but unlike me he is notorious for being very active borderline on spamming, trying to direct people and generally being helpful to town. He is completely lacking these features this game. His townread post is suspicious, I can't remember him making townlists like this in the last games? His behaviour currently reminds of the Bastard game we just were in, where he was SK. Ace: I don't like how he has basically been talking about game mechanics and shown no interest in hunting scum. However, I've read some games where he was in (last was space station) and I think this is part of his D1 play? Not entirely sure. Radfield: He would not have shown up in this list was it not for sbrubbles points. I think they are very legit, and I look forward to Radfields reaction.
Random reads, did you guys notice that he just threw those reads out of nowhere? I think that he's trying to contribute random crap that means nothing to discussion, and he's even recycling some of the stuff like on his Ace points.
post #3
takes two lines of stuff to say that the defense is bad huh?
post #4
Careful much?
******
After that, I feel that he's trying to be useless with his vote:
First vote, on Marvellosity who I think is town, he votes ezpz only by saying that he sheeped etc.
Second, on Zentor he provides a reason: I was suspicious of him already on day 1, he refuses to bring more stuff to discussion of Zentor.
******
Super interesting post before I end this:
On April 24 2012 06:16 phagga wrote:
If I counted right these are the current vote leaders:
marv: 4 votes
snarf: 3 votes
Zentor: 2 votes
the rest is 1 vote or less.
I'm off to bed in about 10 mins, need to get out early again tomorrow.
Useless huzzah!
First: votecount, LOL, this means nothing as y'know we can count votes too!
Second: Im going to bed bro, fluff!
in the end
##Vote: phagga
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On April 25 2012 22:35 Ace wrote:
A normal Townie = a person trying to actually survive a lynch.
Why does How player A defends himself even matter here? It could be the worst defense of all time, but the fact that he even tried in stark contrast to a player who doesn't goes a long way.
Really, your defense is "I've seen him do this one time before, and I don't believe Scum would do Scummy things so blatantly."
Where as some of us have deemed his behavior Scummy, so then yes more than likely he is Scum.
Screw it, let's lynch people for being too town. There is no way an actual Townie would have the balls to do that.
One too town person would never be lynched as he is acting town and is helping town in a good way.
Also, Even though, could you answer my previous question?
Lastly, If you believe Zentor is scum then go ahead, more power to you. I'll be (really) surprised if he flips scum though.
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@Bluelightz What the hell "more power to you" mean?
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The Screw it...town thing was sarcasm.
I believe I addressed all of your questions. If I didn't point it out and I'll answer it.
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On April 25 2012 22:57 prplhz wrote:
@Bluelightz What the hell "more power to you" mean?
"you" has more power, meaning he has more power to do what he wants to do.(He can do whatever he wants)
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Righty-oh guys, just caught up with the thread. I gotta go in a half hour, but I'll be back on late tonight and tomorrow. Anyway, this is what I've got:
1) Zentor: This sounds like beating a dead horse, but I'm also favorable to his lynch at this point. His play is being disruptive, his self vote antics (which are just antics given that he took his vote off himself yesterday and will likely do so today) don't bring anything to the table and now wants us to wait a few hours to actually hear his case. Tell me, Zentor, if masons (which may not even be here) didn't claim at the start of the day, it's because they find it better to claim some other day. Why would they change their mind because a heavily accused player is asking them to claim?
Him playing scummy today could be a planned bus, which would make sense because there may be mafia who defended him yesterday and want to distance themselves from that.
##vote MrZentor
2) VE: Going back to the last minute scramble in yesterday's lynch, how did this post:
+ Show Spoiler +On April 24 2012 05:19 Radfield wrote:
I don't think sbrubbles or snarfs are very good lynches.
Honestly, I don't really feel like doing the last hour scramble, and I don't think we will net scum doing that anyways. I'd be fine with a marvellosity or bluelightz lynch, but I doubt that gets us anywhere either.
However, no-lynching doesn't really do us any good. Right now we have lylo on day 4(assuming no SK), and if we no-lynch we still have mylo on Day 4. However, if there IS a serial killer in the mix, every extra townie will count.
I'm just feeling a bit apathetic towards the lynch and don't feel like forcing through a mediocre candidate(again).
Also, lynching me day 1 is never a good idea. Have you ever notice how pretty much the only time townies find me scummy on day 1 is when I am town?
Man, I really don't have the energy for this right now. Apologies all, I will try to pick it up tonight.
Convince you of this:
+ Show Spoiler +On April 24 2012 06:20 VisceraEyes wrote:
Rad made me rethink voting marv - I went back and reread the beginning of his newbie game that I read and he did find himself the victim of early suspicion.
I'm willing to no-lynch in this situation. In my opinion a no-lynch is better than a mislynch in this situation and I'm not confident enough in any of the lurkers anymore - there has been a lot of activity here toward the end, and it's hard to tell if it's because there's a scum candidate or because no one wants a no-lynch or what.
What do you think Toad? Do you think we should lynch a lurker or no-lynch? I'm okay with no-lynching to be frank.
The question above was posted in a different form by Toad/Sandroba, but you never answered. Besides being overall strong town players, they were putting you, along with Radfield on the spotlight (at nighttime, not less). They may have been leaning on Rad being the scum out of you two (while I think the opposite), but I think their deaths shows that they were at least on the right direction.
If I suspect that you're scum, that would mean that mavelosity is also scum, otherwise you could have voted for him to try to force a mislynch at little or no cost. After reading through his filter, I see this as very plausible, which brings me to my next point:
3) Marvelosity:
Your play this game has been essencially inactivity and sheeping. During the D1 last-minute scramble, you were apathetic, were giving up on the game and pulled the newbie card. In fact, you did these things at 4 votes, which meant you weren't exactly in mortal danger (but close anyway). Now D2 you're being slightly more active, but the bandwagon on Zentor is already rolling, so you're not actually adding a lot to the discussion. It's hard to make a case on someone who doesn't have content precisely because you can't break down their arguments, but you not having content is exactly my point. You've been lurking and I think you're scum.
Also, I tried looking at your games and couldn't find any D1 lynches, but maybe I just missed it. Can you link to one?
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IF ZENTOR WASNT LYNCHED TODAY, WHO WOULD YOU LYNCH AND WHY?
That's the question I'd like everyone (that has only voiced suspicion on Zentor today) to answer.
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On April 25 2012 23:01 Bluelightz wrote:
IF ZENTOR WASNT LYNCHED TODAY, WHO WOULD YOU LYNCH AND WHY?
That's the question I'd like everyone (that has only voiced suspicion on Zentor today) to answer.
Irrelevant. I'm not answering this because it does nothing to further the game as its just throwing more names out there. Right now what is important is Mr.Zentor and your defense against him. Putting out more scum reads does nothing.
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@Ace You say that the case on MrZentor is essentially the post he made today where he promised content later, is that really the best there is in this thread after ~20 pages?
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On April 25 2012 23:06 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 23:01 Bluelightz wrote:
IF ZENTOR WASNT LYNCHED TODAY, WHO WOULD YOU LYNCH AND WHY?
That's the question I'd like everyone (that has only voiced suspicion on Zentor today) to answer.
Irrelevant. I'm not answering this because it does nothing to further the game as its just throwing more names out there. Right now what is important is Mr.Zentor and your defense against him. Putting out more scum reads does nothing.
Okay then.....
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
On April 25 2012 23:00 Sbrubbles wrote:
3) Marvelosity:
Your play this game has been essencially inactivity and sheeping. During the D1 last-minute scramble, you were apathetic, were giving up on the game and pulled the newbie card. In fact, you did these things at 4 votes, which meant you weren't exactly in mortal danger (but close anyway). Now D2 you're being slightly more active, but the bandwagon on Zentor is already rolling, so you're not actually adding a lot to the discussion. It's hard to make a case on someone who doesn't have content precisely because you can't break down their arguments, but you not having content is exactly my point. You've been lurking and I think you're scum.
Also, I tried looking at your games and couldn't find any D1 lynches, but maybe I just missed it. Can you link to one?
So because I have a strong opinion on Zentor I'm only sheeping because someone else had it first? Na. This stupid WIFOM defence of Zentor is the first thing I've felt strongly about, so it's the first thing I'm posting strongly about.
Also, I've never been lynched (day 1 or otherwise). Look at my other ongoing game for my general posting behaviour Day 1 and beyond.
In Newbie VI (as town) I made a one-liner vote on therapist toward the end of the day, and followed this up the next day by lynching a claimed cop (Kohbee). Nonetheless I found the 2nd scum eventually and got him lynched on the final day.
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On April 25 2012 23:08 prplhz wrote:
@Ace You say that the case on MrZentor is essentially the post he made today where he promised content later, is that really the best there is in this thread after ~20 pages?
No, it's just one of a few things I'm looking it. This is the way I see the scenario played out:
Yesterday remember Zentor was never really in serious danger to get lynched, but he did show up towards the end of the day. So he had ample time to know that he was a suspect and that his self vote attracted some negative attention.
Today he starts off with another self-vote. Based on Day 1 of him not getting lynched even though he attracted attention I think any competent Scum player would do this. He knows the Town failed at securing a lynch yesterday so why not do it again today?
The Mason part is just icing on the cake. He literally calls for the Masons to claim so that he can provide us with analysis 20 hours later. But this is just typical Scum play pioneered by the Great L: Promise the Town future content and dead scum for some leniency today or a little more information. But him asking for Mason claims isn't even anything new as we spent the early part of the first day talking about. As I also said before - 2 confirmed Townies showing up makes everyone's analysis tighter. It isn't some unique information that somehow gives Zentor a ridiculously clear picture. If he is the guy driving analysis and wagons then I've clearly missed this thread.
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Forumite: He has focused a lot on Zentor, and barely spoke about anyone else. He posted frequently, asking a lot of questions. I haven't noticed anything particulary scummy, but it's the same in the other direction.
LOL, ok, so...
On April 25 2012 22:48 Bluelightz wrote:
Hmm, unvoting s&B, suspecting phagga. strongandbig is town, IMO.
Why the change of mind? What did you find that makes s&b town now?
On April 25 2012 22:48 Bluelightz wrote:Snarfs I'm waiting for his response. ##Unvote: strongandbig
Blue's journey to phagga's first 4 post's Post #1 Can't get a read of this one, simply telling that he'll read will be decided on his next post Post #2 Hmm, recycling points Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 16:22 phagga wrote:ok, catching up. game mechanics stuff:
- Hydras should sign. Everything else lowers transparency for town.
- After reading all the pros and cons, I'd support a mason claim day 2. Reason: Many Vets + 2 masons = too many targets to handle for scum. D3 might be too late because of counterclaim (depends on nightkills and SK situation).On to more important stuff in no particular order: Mr. Zentor: I don't like how his " really long post" was actually not long at all, but only full of quotes. If we ignore the quotes, the post was quite short. So why announce it as long? His case on prplhz was weak, and when asked a second time why he thought that prplhz was still scummy, he never answered. His style is unnecessarily aggresive. VisceraEyes: His Filter shows 5 ingame posts, which is more than I have, but unlike me he is notorious for being very active borderline on spamming, trying to direct people and generally being helpful to town. He is completely lacking these features this game. His townread post is suspicious, I can't remember him making townlists like this in the last games? His behaviour currently reminds of the Bastard game we just were in, where he was SK. Ace: I don't like how he has basically been talking about game mechanics and shown no interest in hunting scum. However, I've read some games where he was in (last was space station) and I think this is part of his D1 play? Not entirely sure. Radfield: He would not have shown up in this list was it not for sbrubbles points. I think they are very legit, and I look forward to Radfields reaction. Random reads, did you guys notice that he just threw those reads out of nowhere? I think that he's trying to contribute random crap that means nothing to discussion, and he's even recycling some of the stuff like on his Ace points.
I already discussed this in this post, as Radfield brought up the same point.
On April 25 2012 22:48 Bluelightz wrote:[/B
post #3
takes two lines of stuff to say that the defense is bad huh?
post #4
Careful much?
Those were an answer to this question.
On April 25 2012 22:48 Bluelightz wrote:[/B
******
After that, I feel that he's trying to be useless with his vote:
First vote, on Marvellosity who I think is town, he votes ezpz only by saying that he sheeped etc.
Second, on Zentor he provides a reason: I was suspicious of him already on day 1, he refuses to bring more stuff to discussion of Zentor.
******
Yeah, I actually thought I lined out on D1 why I found him susicious. Rereading my own filter now I see this is not correct. So in short, the reasons I'm voting him:
- Contradictions:
- Says that Hydras signing their post should not be a topic as it is obvious, but complains he could not bring that point up himself.
- makes a list where he writes how important it is to decide on a lynch target but a) brings that post less than an hour before deadline and b) decides 30 minutes later that he wants to no-lynch.
- Claims to write a really long post why prplhz is scum, but the post is just full of quotes, and without them not long at all
- No intention to scumhunt
- Unhelpful to town
- claims he is vanilla town, but does not want to talk about his scum targets until masons have claimed.
This is from the top of my head and my notes, without rereading his filter.
On April 25 2012 22:48 Bluelightz wrote:
Super interesting post before I end this:
On April 24 2012 06:16 phagga wrote:
If I counted right these are the current vote leaders:
marv: 4 votes
snarf: 3 votes
Zentor: 2 votes
the rest is 1 vote or less.
I'm off to bed in about 10 mins, need to get out early again tomorrow.
Useless huzzah!
First: votecount, LOL, this means nothing as y'know we can count votes too!
Second: Im going to bed bro, fluff!
First: There was no votecount for a long time. I intended to help. That's not the first game I've done that.
Second: That was shortly before the deadline. I wanted people to know that I will be no longer around as a lot of discussion was going on at that time. Also:
[B]On April 23 2012 01:01 Bluelightz wrote:
Some further reasoning
Policy Lynch -> Easily avoided by scum, like LaLurkers avoided by being active, or LaLiars, hmm can't explain but it just saying that it will be hard to prove that they are lying without a DT check or something.
[b]I'll be sleeping now.
Last read: Toad hydra is town because he has started poking at people for possible scum slips and has been active.
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EBWOP ok I rushed my post... the formatting is off and the first part of forumite was not supposed to be part of this post, but whatever.
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On April 25 2012 20:16 Bluelightz wrote:Sup bros, my blue mind say's that The Zentor lynch is moving too easy ( as radfield has already mentioned). For now, as a preemptive guess on who is scum it is: Snarfs, strongandbig, and a veteran player. Snarfs because: Snarfs and s&b seem to be trying to distance themselves from each other, also that, he is pushing the easy targets today, Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 08:40 Snarfs wrote:
Based on what I just posted, I'm also feeling a Zentor lynch. That said, it's still VERY early in the day so I'm not going to stop questioning other people.
##Vote MrZentor Next, I find it odd that he picked s&b out of all people to call out in his first few posts. Lastly, I see a problem with how HE scum hunts, Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 02:07 Snarfs wrote:On April 24 2012 01:18 strongandbig wrote:When it comes to actual suspects, I'd like to point to Snarfs. He's done a few things so far that make me suspicious. First, we have + Show Spoiler +On April 23 2012 09:12 Snarfs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 08:53 Sbrubbles wrote:
That said, I suppose it might be a good strategy to claim if the masons are two relatively new players (like myself), in that it would draw fire away from more veteran town players.
If the masons do decide to claim, though, I don't think we should waste town powers confirming them. I'd be happy with believing them and only doubt them if they start acting specially scummy or aren't dead by day 4. Cops are here to investigate scummy players, not to confirm townies. I agree with all this also. That said, I agree with the hydra in that it's time to stop talking about the masons and to start hunting scum. In this post, he says that we should be hunting scum, but in none of his later posts does he actually do any scum hunting. My scum hunting method is my own. I like to ask people questions based on their actions when I notice something weird and gauge their responses. Me asking you and Zentor, as well as Ace and Radfield, to explain your actions is my method of scum hunting.-snip- I don't see how asking someone to explain their action's is an effective way to scum hunt, I think that it is easy for one to make one's action's look town.
strongandbig because: First, because oddly he picked Snarfs to make a case on, I feel that they are trying to distance themselves from each other, next, in his first post he spent an awful amount of space for a way for people to breaccrumb stuff -.-. Lastly, he made an awful sheep vote on Zentor.
Honestly I think both could be town, but I have a feeling that there's scum in them, just maybe, ##Vote: strongandbigFor now.
I'm going to ignore the circular reasoning part of this (which actually no longer stands since now you think strongandbig is town?) and just try and satisfy your desire for me to respond to the other two points. For the record, I don't think anything you said here makes any sense, but I think you've played fairly townie all game so I want to alleviate your concerns.
RE: Pushing the easy target today - Zentor is anti-town. He should be lynched or play pro-town. That being said, I do believe that if he is town, he thinks that he's just so much smarter than everyone else and that it's worth wasting an entire day of scum-hunting so that he can play his little games to find the scum for us. Either way, he should be lynched, on one hand because he's scum and on the other because it should be a policy around here to lynch people like this because otherwise they're giving scum an excuse to play scummy as fuck, which we don't want.
RE: Asking people to explain their actions not being effective scum hunting - I disagree.
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Radfield, I don´t think you answered this question; Why are you so sure there MUST be at most one 1-shot DT? Do we have any guarantees at all that this game uses the C9++ setup exactly?
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EPT
