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On April 08 2012 12:51 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 12:37 Ribbon wrote:On April 08 2012 02:49 Milkis wrote:
Also, one more thing I'd like to add.
The reason why the BW scene is collapsing is 100% because it's a sponsor based model. There are still a TON of BW fans. Imagine if Koreans paid for subscriptions, paid actual money to go to finals, etc. But the fans balked at this very idea immediately, which basically forced BW into the model it is today... very very sponsor based.
When you're no longer answering to the fans but your sponsors, you get very weird things going on. I mean, every finals is still a full house imagine if 5000 people show up and you charge 10 bucks each -- that's 50K, that's 1/10th of what it costs OSL to sponsor. Imagine if you did events for semi finals too. etc etc. the cost of sponsorships would be much less.
Imagine if PL finals charged 10 bucks. 30K people show up, that's 300K. That's 1/10th of what it costs to sponsor a Proleague (approximinately). Things like that. But Koreans really drove away from this model, which is a very scary thought in the end.
These are numbers that they can get CURRENTLY. But because Koreans fans now have the idea they will never pay for esports... well. There you go. If BW fans want someone to blame for its death, they have only themselves to blame. On April 08 2012 03:24 Milkis wrote:On April 08 2012 03:00 Xiphos wrote:
I am more than glad to pay 10 bucks for BW. Hell I am willing to put as much as 30 bucks to watch one full season of individual league or 20 bucks for PL. By the way I don`t even live in SK, all I want is some official stream and I`ll be already content. Why did the Koreans take this game for granted... Mostly because 30 bucks is "a lot". 10 bucks is also probably "a lot". Koreans are working off a much lower GDP. If you're making like 40K a year you're far far above what most koreans make. So I guess it's a bit more painful since you're a lot more tight on money. This was worse a few years ago when they were just recovering from the recession. They did have official streams. Daum for example had an official stream. They just never charged for it. On April 08 2012 03:02 Hundisilm wrote:
Any chance of the BW scene to pack up and move to the interwebs if OGN drops it? Internet should be a bit more friendly environment for a low cost production of content (can do more with less sponsor money). Sure. Things are kind of taking off in afreeca nowadays, esp with the old progamers streaming there. I imagine that if KeSPA ever does drop BW, there'll be people playing it on the internet, and some of them'll be really good. On April 08 2012 03:29 Milkis wrote:On April 08 2012 03:27 Sawamura wrote:On April 08 2012 03:00 Xiphos wrote:On April 08 2012 02:49 Milkis wrote:
Also, one more thing I'd like to add.
The reason why the BW scene is collapsing is 100% because it's a sponsor based model. There are still a TON of BW fans. Imagine if Koreans paid for subscriptions, paid actual money to go to finals, etc. But the fans balked at this very idea immediately, which basically forced BW into the model it is today... very very sponsor based.
When you're no longer answering to the fans but your sponsors, you get very weird things going on. I mean, every finals is still a full house imagine if 5000 people show up and you charge 10 bucks each -- that's 50K, that's 1/10th of what it costs OSL to sponsor. Imagine if you did events for semi finals too. etc etc. the cost of sponsorships would be much less.
Imagine if PL finals charged 10 bucks. 30K people show up, that's 300K. That's 1/10th of what it costs to sponsor a Proleague (approximinately). Things like that. But Koreans really drove away from this model, which is a very scary thought in the end.
These are numbers that they can get CURRENTLY. But because Koreans fans now have the idea they will never pay for esports... well. There you go. I am more than glad to pay 10 bucks for BW. Hell I am willing to put as much as 30 bucks to watch one full season of individual league or 20 bucks for PL. By the way I don`t even live in SK, all I want is some official stream and I`ll be already content. Why did the Koreans take this game for granted... I think it's still not late if they are really in a pinch they could have open up a donation box with a title saying " You Love Bw ? We also do, but we need your help too, Please Donate to keep us around ^_^ " . If each person donates let say $10 a day and such I bet that fans are willing to go that far to help keep their scene . Although I don't mind paying to watch pro league .. still the donation method is one way bw scene can use it to fund proleague . Do you understand how desperate that sounds? The SECOND you do that, you're guaranteeing that you will never get a sponsor again. You just have to find a way to monetize BW, and KeSPA never really looked into it too much. A lot of teams just think of it as "community service" =/ (in fact this is explicit for STX) This, not the relative popularity of the games, in the reason SC2 looks so attractive. MLG has a PPV model with no sponsorships for it's Arenas, because they can get people to actually pay for it. That's a big deal. That's why I think there's actually a decent chance that this move is to make foreign money flow into BW. It's that a realistic thought? Make money on SC2 and use it to run BW at a loss? On your last point: The only thing KeSPA can offer is the BW players who are supposedly the best. That's their only selling point, or else GSL has them owned. If all the best players switch to SC2, why then sponsor BW? Why sink money into the game? They're businessmen.
What if, hypothetically, Flash isn't as good in SC2 as he is in BW? ForGG and Hyun were both well ahead of other SC2 pros in BW skill, and both of them kind of diappointed, especially Hyun, who was top 30 Kespa rank for the same month he played his first game in (which is hardly Bonjwa, but way better than any other SC2 pro had been doing) and has an official GSL record of 0-3. It's true that "OMG Jaedong in SC2 omg" is the big draw, but if he disappoints, they're screwed.(Also, I think underdogs sell a lot better than I AM STAR FOREVER. It's why MarineKing is super-popular in SC2, and why I think Flash is hurting BW. It's very easy to paint TLBS as the Cobra Kai of SC2, which isn't what the sponsors want).
Besides, TBLS are way more dominant in hypothetical SC2 than they'd probably be in SC2, even assuming they didn't just kind of suck and surprise everyone. The imagination's always sexier than the reality can ever be. Literally, if Flash switched to SC2, and was anything besides a Bonjwa, it would be a huge disappointment. Simply being a good A-teamer, or even a A-teamer with occasional streaks of scary dominance like MarineKing can have, isn't enough to cash the hype check.
They have other cards, too, though. They can simply buy potentially good young players like Maru and Creator or some B-teamer with the spark, or even already popular players like MarineKing, leaving the current SC2 scene with nothing. It'd be trivial for KeSPA to kill GOM, if they really wanted to.
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1019 Posts
On April 08 2012 13:06 Lawliet wrote:
There is a international scene for SC2 and none for BW. It's really as simple as that.
Globalization is the future. BW has stagnated and the fanbase/money is drying out.
Don't get me wrong. BW is my first love and she will never be forgotten. But it's time to move on guys. SC2 might seem like feeble substitute but in good time balance will come. There's still two expansions and a buttload of patches in the works.
Honestly. Wouldn't you rather see the Jaedong, Bish or Flash slaying nerds all over the world with personal sponsorship or spearheading their own teams in SC2 rather than have them retire and go do their military service?
BW has been declining because of the match-fixing scandal and because it is finally feeling the effects of turnover in the gaming industry, not "globalization". BW in korea has a self-sustaining system (mega sponsorship, draft system, centralized player oversight, etc). What happens to BW or SC2 outside korea has absolutely no effect on the korean BW community. They have their system, they have their supporters, and they like it. I can repeat this all day: BW and SC2 are not playing on a zero-sum field. The success or failure of one or the other isn't going to significantly affect the other. People have strong opinions of what they like and what they do not like. You can't change that. You can't force feed them something they feel is inferior (i.e SC2). This is why the idea that a BW decline will benefit SC2 is totally baseless.
I hope SC2 fans understand that by saying things like "SC2 will get better from the two expansions" or "TBLS in SC2 will elevate the scene" you are suggesting that SC2 is currently in the shitter right now? If the game isn't exciting now, it's not going to get exciting because of a few tweaks unless the game is totally overhauled. SC2 is a game that apparantly cannot produce players that dominate over long periods of time. It rotates through GSL champions like a roulette and the whole competition feels lukewarm and flat as a result. What makes you think that flash or jaedong is suddenly going turn the game upside down? They are playing on SC2 terms.
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On April 08 2012 14:11 white_horse wrote:
I hope SC2 fans understand that by saying things like "SC2 will get better from the two expansions" or "TBLS in SC2 will elevate the scene" you are suggesting that SC2 is currently in the shitter right now?
No
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On April 08 2012 13:06 Lawliet wrote:
There is a international scene for SC2 and none for BW. It's really as simple as that.
Globalization is the future. BW has stagnated and the fanbase/money is drying out.
Don't get me wrong. BW is my first love and she will never be forgotten. But it's time to move on guys. SC2 might seem like feeble substitute but in good time balance will come. There's still two expansions and a buttload of patches in the works.
Honestly. Wouldn't you rather see the Jaedong, Bish or Flash slaying nerds all over the world with personal sponsorship or spearheading their own teams in SC2 rather than have them retire and go do their military service?
You signed up in 2010 and have never posted in the Brood War forums. You have no place to tell people to move on.
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On April 08 2012 14:11 white_horse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 13:06 Lawliet wrote:
There is a international scene for SC2 and none for BW. It's really as simple as that.
Globalization is the future. BW has stagnated and the fanbase/money is drying out.
Don't get me wrong. BW is my first love and she will never be forgotten. But it's time to move on guys. SC2 might seem like feeble substitute but in good time balance will come. There's still two expansions and a buttload of patches in the works.
Honestly. Wouldn't you rather see the Jaedong, Bish or Flash slaying nerds all over the world with personal sponsorship or spearheading their own teams in SC2 rather than have them retire and go do their military service? BW has been declining because of the match-fixing scandal and because it is finally feeling the effects of turnover in the gaming industry, not "globalization". BW in korea has a self-sustaining system (mega sponsorship, draft system, centralized player oversight, etc). What happens to BW or SC2 outside korea has absolutely no effect on the korean BW community. They have their system, they have their supporters, and they like it. I can repeat this all day: BW and SC2 are not playing on a zero-sum field. The success or failure of one or the other isn't going to significantly affect the other. People have strong opinions of what they like and what they do not like. You can't change that. You can't force feed them something they feel is inferior (i.e SC2). This is why the idea that a BW decline will benefit SC2 is totally baseless. I hope SC2 fans understand that by saying things like "SC2 will get better from the two expansions" or "TBLS in SC2 will elevate the scene" you are suggesting that SC2 is currently in the shitter right now? If the game isn't exciting now, it's not going to get exciting because of a few tweaks unless the game is totally overhauled. SC2 is a game that apparantly cannot produce players that dominate over long periods of time. It rotates through GSL champions like a roulette and the whole competition feels lukewarm and flat as a result. What makes you think that flash or jaedong is suddenly going turn the game upside down? They are playing on SC2 terms.
If BW is so self sustaining, why is it being removed from over half of PL and probably even completely replaced in the future? There's a disconnect here between your logic and the reality.
I honestly don't care if BW dies, SC2 is 100% fine and growing every single day with it being alive. BW being removed from PL really isn't going to stop SC2 from growing.
I don't think that sc2 isn't exciting or "in the shitter" at all. The game is exciting to me.
Also your logic saying that it goes through GSL champions like a roulette is so completely lopsided to the opinions of most of the BW fans, regarding the legitimacy of BW's supremacy, it's comical. Haven't you guys been saying things like "BW's balance is so perfect, it's been perfected for over 12 years"? To say that one player should remain dominant while the game is still in its infancy, still being figured out, is like saying that Boxer should have always been the best BW player ever and the fact that he isn't means that the game wasn't balanced, was "in the shitter" and wasn't as perfect as many people like to say it always was.
The fact that counters to builds, either through mechanics or scouting, are still being developed means the game is still developing. To expect it to be as figured out as BW is so soon is expecting too much. Let's check back in 10 years, and if Starcraft II is still around I guarantee you it won't even look like the same game that's being played today, the same way BW has completely changed over the last 10 years.
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Man... i just want to watch a good rts i don't want to settle for less...
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On April 08 2012 17:50 ShadeR wrote:
Man... i just want to watch a good rts i don't want to settle for less...
I believe if we can sent down a representative to kespa and negotiate with them and introduce some subscription model for us foreigners fan saying that we are willing to pay and such if kespa is able to deliver hq content and live stream .I think bw proleague can last forever .....
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On April 08 2012 18:12 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 17:50 ShadeR wrote:
Man... i just want to watch a good rts i don't want to settle for less... I believe if we can sent down a representative to kespa and negotiate with them and introduce some subscription model for us foreigners fan saying that we are willing to pay and such if kespa is able to deliver hq content and live stream .I think bw proleague can last forever .....
That would open themselves to a lawsuit....
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United Kingdom1666 Posts
On April 08 2012 18:43 TrainSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 18:12 Sawamura wrote:On April 08 2012 17:50 ShadeR wrote:
Man... i just want to watch a good rts i don't want to settle for less... I believe if we can sent down a representative to kespa and negotiate with them and introduce some subscription model for us foreigners fan saying that we are willing to pay and such if kespa is able to deliver hq content and live stream .I think bw proleague can last forever ..... That would open themselves to a lawsuit....
Yeah I'm pretty sure Blizz would be 100% prepared to be massive dicks about the whole thing. Much as I would genuinely love to support the KR BW scene with my money.
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Interest check: would you all still watch PL if it became an online tournament?
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On April 08 2012 19:50 RageCommodore wrote:
Interest check: would you all still watch PL if it became an online tournament?
We wouldn't settle for less than what is happening rightnow.
Check SPL finals now, that is real eSports. We won't settle for any less.
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On April 08 2012 20:42 fabiano wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 19:50 RageCommodore wrote:
Interest check: would you all still watch PL if it became an online tournament? We wouldn't settle for less than what is happening rightnow. Check SPL finals now, that is real eSports. We won't settle for any less.
Unfortunately it seems that a lot of people are up and ready to settle for much less.
After a final of this quality, next season we'll cry when all the excitement will go down when have to wait for an *amazing* SC2 match to finally end...
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On April 08 2012 19:32 ImbaTosS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 18:43 TrainSamurai wrote:On April 08 2012 18:12 Sawamura wrote:On April 08 2012 17:50 ShadeR wrote:
Man... i just want to watch a good rts i don't want to settle for less... I believe if we can sent down a representative to kespa and negotiate with them and introduce some subscription model for us foreigners fan saying that we are willing to pay and such if kespa is able to deliver hq content and live stream .I think bw proleague can last forever ..... That would open themselves to a lawsuit.... Yeah I'm pretty sure Blizz would be 100% prepared to be massive dicks about the whole thing. Much as I would genuinely love to support the KR BW scene with my money.
At least for SC2, Blizzard requires that a tournament has some way to watch the games for free, whether it's through a free stream with paid vods (GSL) or a paid stream with free vods (MLG Arena). And I don't see how an HQ stream would be that much help, considering that BW looks fine as is in SQ. And BW vods are traditionally completely free. And there are already a plethora of ways to watch their matches. I really don't see a way for KeSPA/OGN to implement a subscription model that is similar to what a lot of SC2 tournaments use. Whatever they do must be substantial enough to warrant a subscription yet not infringe on whatever that has already been established as free.
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Whether TBLS would dominate SC2 really comes down to their particular interest in it. The player who combines a high amount of natural talent, a strong mentality (not getting nervous during broadcasted games), and an extraordinarily high amount of dedication and practice will be the best player. TBLS all have the first two and JD/Flash are known for their scary practice schedules. If they lack the same dedication and interest in SC2 as they have for BW, they will not dominate because they will not have the same approach to practice and mentality as they do in BW.
There are definite reasons why TBLS are so successful in BW beyond their natural gifts and the SC2 scene isn't a farce because they don't participate personally, but others can emulate TBLS as far as their reasons for success and dominate SC2.
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Yes. But they all died 3 years ago. If threads like that didn't exist BW would still be strong as ever.
You get tons of them nowadays but they are in the "How do I actually get interested in BW" type post.
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So was there any more information on the rumours in the OP? Because if there's any truth in them then it's the worst idea anyone has ever had. Ever.
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On April 08 2012 22:17 Figgy wrote:Yes. But they all died 3 years ago. If threads like that didn't exist BW would still be strong as ever. You get tons of them nowadays but they are in the "How do I actually get interested in BW" type post.
lol what.
you joined this forum in 2011 how could you possibly know any of that?
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sc2 is dying and getting owned by LoL. Gonna get worse when DOTA2 comes out. Blizzard is frantically trying to at least secure a foothold in Korea as a last ditch effort as they have run both BW and sc2 into the ground.
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EPT
