EPT[D] PvZ Beating Stephano Style Roaches - Page 55
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seansye
United States1722 Posts
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AshenCZ
Czech Republic46 Posts
 Ofc there are maps on which this isn't possible at all, but...EDIT: For anyone who didn't see the IPL: here's a summary of WhiteRa's strategy: Stephano went for no gas quick 3rd hatch and WhiteRa planted his 3rd nexus at like 7:10 (watched the timer pretty closely). When Stephano came with the 200 +1 roach push WhiteRa just started to place pylons everywhere and warp zealot to harass so Stephano needed to defend and left WhiteRa alone for another +/- 30s which was enough to get few immortals, huge amount of stalkers and sentries to defend... Send first 2 lots to harass zerg's 3rd, retreat though do not lose anything, walloff your ramp at 3rd with GWs, add few cannons and watch out for the ramps. It was on Cloud Kingdom though - there are 2 small ramps, 2 sentries can hold 1 ramp long enough for you to reatreat and defend... Metalopolis and Korhal would be a different story, I think you CAN do it on Shakuras/TalDarim, Daybreak would be difficult and Ohana nearly impossible. Entombed valley though same as Cloud Kingdom it's pretty easy to do it. Have you tried this/will you try this? I think it isn't a bad strategy at all. He seemed very strong until he made a mistake and *sigh* threw it away  But I think it's a big step forward in our play as Stephano wasn't able to do anything with his roaches.EDIT2: Forgot about Antiga... I feel like narrowing the 2 chokes in front of your 3 bases with these GWs and cannons is pretty much the best idea because walling your third off won't exactly help you defend the roaches since the bases aren't connected... or do you thing smt. different? EDIT3: if you missed it, here's the VOD http://www.twitch.tv/ignproleague/b/314129429?t=174m10s | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On April 07 2012 18:33 AshenCZ wrote: I think the WhiteRa's style in IPL is a way to go too Ofc there are maps on which this isn't possible at all, but...EDIT: For anyone who didn't see the IPL: here's a summary of WhiteRa's strategy: Stephano went for no gas quick 3rd hatch and WhiteRa planted his 3rd nexus at like 7:10 (watched the timer pretty closely). When Stephano came with the 200 +1 roach push WhiteRa just started to place pylons everywhere and warp zealot to harass so Stephano needed to defend and left WhiteRa alone for another +/- 30s which was enough to get few immortals, huge amount of stalkers and sentries to defend... Send first 2 lots to harass zerg's 3rd, retreat though do not lose anything, walloff your ramp at 3rd with GWs, add few cannons and watch out for the ramps. It was on Cloud Kingdom though - there are 2 small ramps, 2 sentries can hold 1 ramp long enough for you to reatreat and defend... Metalopolis and Korhal would be a different story, I think you CAN do it on Shakuras/TalDarim, Daybreak would be difficult and Ohana nearly impossible. Entombed valley though same as Cloud Kingdom it's pretty easy to do it. Have you tried this/will you try this? I think it isn't a bad strategy at all. He seemed very strong until he made a mistake and *sigh* threw it away But I think it's a big step forward in our play as Stephano wasn't able to do anything with his roaches.EDIT2: Forgot about Antiga... I feel like narrowing the 2 chokes in front of your 3 bases with these GWs and cannons is pretty much the best idea because walling your third off won't exactly help you defend the roaches since the bases aren't connected... or do you thing smt. different? EDIT3: if you missed it, here's the VOD http://www.twitch.tv/ignproleague/b/314129429?t=174m10s This seems to work well against the stephano style and whitera could have easily won if he went colossi earlier and just pushed before infestor+hive kicked in. Stephano's style has a weak spot if the roach pressure didn't work and he is transitioning from roach based to ling based + hive. One problem about these early thirds though is that it's a bit of a blind call. You can scout the third going up but you're not really sure when zerg took gasses. It's very well possible that zerg has ling speed earlier and just starts pressuring at 7-8 minutes with lings instead of building up for the massive roach attack. In that sense it was somewhat a blind counter to stephano. | ||
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Serge89
Belgium38 Posts
The zerg can stress out and overcommit with queens and spores or simply just tech on Hydras. Then u can establish your third without big problems. | ||
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AshenCZ
Czech Republic46 Posts
Serge - the big problem is when zerg with 200/200 +1 roaches just goes for it... Few VRs and phoenixes aren't going to save you from this many roaches I think. At least not before the zerg crashes into your production and cripples you which allows him a safe tranzition into blord + infestor... I don't know, I am just a average platinum player but I think SG isn't going to protect you well. | ||
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Ryndika
1489 Posts
On April 07 2012 20:59 AshenCZ wrote: Markwerf - I would say that every zerg will once tranzition to hive (blord + infestor) and that's the weak point of Zerg in general imo. Every push about 17 minutes is very strong because of it. The problem... I've been wondering about this too. And since you can't really scout the gases, you'll need to keep an eye on the units he makes and when he does make this and that upgrade. 7-8 minutes is when your nexus is already up as well as the wall is so sealing off the third completely in case of speedlings (to avoid an accidental runby) is the best solution I've come up with. I don't really think of this build as a "Stephano counter" build, I would love to see this becoming a standart play... Doing this if you see early third is a viable option or at least I hope so. Going to try this with a few friends and I would love anyone interested in finding the counter to Stephano's roaches to try this too and figure out if this a viable option and how to respond to the pressure Zerg can apply. Serge - the big problem is when zerg with 200/200 +1 roaches just goes for it... Few VRs and phoenixes aren't going to save you from this many roaches I think. At least not before the zerg crashes into your production and cripples you which allows him a safe tranzition into blord + infestor... I don't know, I am just a average platinum player but I think SG isn't going to protect you well. The point of SG units is to make so much damage that you get more units to defend your 3rd. Usually 1VR and 5phoenix or only 1VR. I wonder if you just kept bumping voidrays and put them infront of ur 3rd and then forcefield, roaches would be on pretty hard clock. Hydras dealy the push probably about 30-40second(maybe more), dunno if you can get colo in time for that | ||
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Let it Raine
Canada1245 Posts
both counter roaches 1 dies to infinite roaches 1 doesnt and the best protoss max is void ray templar | ||
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AshenCZ
Czech Republic46 Posts
1 doesn't | ||
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Ryndika
1489 Posts
On April 07 2012 04:10 NrGmonk wrote: Tails could have defended with better sim city. And he would had immortals in time I believe if he had not missed forecields. Those forcefields cost him the game. Another story if immortals would be enough to def, dunno personally. i have no idea why people stop making voids in favor of immortals both counter roaches 1 dies to infinite roaches 1 doesnt and the best protoss max is void ray templar If the map makes sense you can FF proportion of his roaches kill it and repeat. Punish wasted roaches with colossus push and prevent mass BL/infestor. Personally I liek to do something about to mess atlest little his BO, +1 4gate, +1 VR but recently I've felt that if I make units that fly I can use them later and I don't lose as much resources. Downside is that if you go VR + phoenix theres huge amount of gas you invest. | ||
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Let it Raine
Canada1245 Posts
On April 08 2012 02:11 AshenCZ wrote: 1 kills roaches in time 1 doesn't oh it does? so there's no problem then. i guess you can close this topic | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
On April 08 2012 02:06 Let it Raine wrote: i have no idea why people stop making voids in favor of immortals both counter roaches 1 dies to infinite roaches 1 doesnt and the best protoss max is void ray templar If you just blindly make voidrays blink is the only safe transition because if you go robo mutas will kill you, and air/tc is weak vs hyunstyle hydraling with a couple of roaches (big push at 12:30), or retstyle roach/hydra max which hits at +- 13min. It's safe vs roachmaxes but not vs the other maxouts for example I played a gm zerg who maxed on roach/hydra corruptor at the 14min mark and demolished me. You either 2base all-in or take the third really early, and tbh all-ins are just needed in box series and have a lot better stats. I practice macro with friends but if I play tournie or ladder I just all-in. | ||
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AshenCZ
Czech Republic46 Posts
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bond1
38 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5211 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + First game he crushed JYP with it. Second game JYP held it while taking a third with great control and 2 Void Rays, but Stephano really gave him a run for his money for about 10 minutes just throwing well upgraded Roaches and Lings at JYP. Third game, he crushed JYP again with it. And with those 3 games behind us, I think that getting Voids is really important. It delays the max out because the Zerg has to build extra Queens and Spores to defend the Voids, and the Voids are really effective at killing Roaches and controlling the map. | ||
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Ldawg
United States328 Posts
I would be willing to wager this build, done by the best Zergs, has a win rate of 80%. I am very curious to see the stats from March and see how off kilter the PvZ win rates are. I think Blizzard needs to do some re-structuring here because after ~2 months, there seems to be no stable counter to this build. The only somewhat effective counters are blind counters such as Inori's build where he didn't even scout so that his push would come 30 seconds earlier and White-Ra's yesterday. However, as stated in an earlier post, if a Zerg just simply went early speed lings or another varying build the Protoss would get crushed. I've been following this thread since creation and while there seems to be somewhat of a consensus to get an early third, Protoss will be doing this based on scouting three hatch from Zerg. At the present time, one can safely assume it is the Stephano style roaches, but it won't always be this way. | ||
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Let it Raine
Canada1245 Posts
On April 08 2012 03:11 Ldawg wrote: I'm starting to feel like kcdc with sheer frustration toward this matchup. To make it even worse, every LAN with a PvZ featuring a Zerg of Stephano's caliber (DRG, Nestea yesterday at IPL 4, etc.) has at least 1 of the games featuring the mass roach build. I would be willing to wager this build, done by the best Zergs, has a win rate of 80%. I am very curious to see the stats from March and see how off kilter the PvZ win rates are. I think Blizzard needs to do some re-structuring here because after ~2 months, there seems to be no stable counter to this build. http://i.imgur.com/VCQcQh.png | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On April 08 2012 03:11 Ldawg wrote: I'm starting to feel like kcdc with sheer frustration toward this matchup. To make it even worse, every LAN with a PvZ featuring a Zerg of Stephano's caliber (DRG, Nestea yesterday at IPL 4, etc.) has at least 1 of the games featuring the mass roach build. I would be willing to wager this build, done by the best Zergs, has a win rate of 80%. I am very curious to see the stats from March and see how off kilter the PvZ win rates are. I think Blizzard needs to do some re-structuring here because after ~2 months, there seems to be no stable counter to this build. The only somewhat effective counters are blind counters such as Inori's build where he didn't even scout so that his push would come 30 seconds earlier and White-Ra's yesterday. However, as stated in an earlier post, if a Zerg just simply went early speed lings or another varying build the Protoss would get crushed. I've been following this thread since creation and while there seems to be somewhat of a consensus to get an early third, Protoss will be doing this based on scouting three hatch from Zerg. At the present time, one can safely assume it is the Stephano style roaches, but it won't always be this way. It's new enough - give it time. For how long did 2-base allins crush before zerg was able to defend them. We'll get to something too. No reason to get bent outta shape for not having it NOW. 2-base allins with decent control will still do fine on the ladder if you wanna win. If you wanna get better in macro games, don't worry about winning since there aren't many high winrate strats out yet and the ones that exist are hard to execute (harassment techniques, perfect FFs on one ramp while defending another with army, others). This doesn't really mean anything about this build specifically - maybe koreans are real good at 2-base allins and zerg aren't very practiced at defending with a build like this yet. Or maybe on the korean server, every other zerg still does their own 2-base allin. Most people here aren't crying about imbalance, they're trying to come up with something that works real well or speculating about something new to be the new "standard" (Edit: standard lategame style that is). Some people will be frustrated during this period - just let them be. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
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Ryndika
1489 Posts
On April 08 2012 02:35 AshenCZ wrote: Ryndika - yeah, you can use them as a stylish way to die against +1 200/200 roaches or some slightly different timing (hydra ling like mentioned above or so...) Most of the time I dont die to 200/200 unless I do no damage with my units. If I go VR I have more solid time. I just see no way roach doing anything when you make around 10sentry. Youll get few immortals out, but if the map is like belchir beach or atlantis spaceship you should just 2base allin. And I do like many toss think, that it's too hard to stop that push and you have too little variations you can do. 2base allins are relying on your opponent not scouting or reacting. 3base play is obvious(push before BL) and theres only 1-2 way to hold your 3rd base, warp prism many gate warp in is just meh. | ||
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skatbone
United States1005 Posts
On April 08 2012 02:38 bond1 wrote: What is the mindset everyone is approaching this problem with? I ask this because I keep seeing some odd things in this thread. The first one is that several people keep replying to pressure builds with "the zerg will just perfect the defense of that". If that was right, there would be no pressure builds in SC2. I don't understand how thats a coherent response. The other thing is that people seem to want a build with absolutely no holes in it. Thats not what you need though. I feel as if we are forgetting that the Stephano build is itself a meta-game build. Of course a build responding to that build will have issues with other builds. As with any strong timing attack you need to commit to defending it and it specifically which leaves you open to most other timing attacks. Those attacks however are not coming. Finally, I understand that we don't want a PvZ that is Russian Roullette, and that you want a solid macro build you can fall back on every time, but I don't think that a PvZ metagame that focuses on switching between macro and 2 base all ins is necessarily Russian Roullette. The difference is that you can scout and react in PvZ. There's still a challenge and a game to be played. If Stephano style roaches are a meta game build then maybe they need a meta game counter. Discovering a set of all ins that beat it might be enough to force the Zerg to play a safer style of the build with a less threatening timing push. This would make your macro builds much more viable. Precisely. And a number of us are toying with fast thirds as a metagame response to a Zerg taking the standard 3 hatch with no gas. This is a standard macro build for Zerg that allows them a solid economy and mid game army (if they choose to mass roach) or the opportunity, midgame, to tech. Having never enjoyed two base all ins, I take a fast third because, imo 2-base pressure often won't allow me to play the kind of game I want to play. So I feel that trying to optimize timings for a 3rd and defense against roaches is seeking something similar to what Z currently have: a macro build that is not predicated on doing x amount of damage. In other words, the fast third, on the right map, with the right execution/defense might just be the "meta game counter." | ||
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