EPT[D] PvZ Beating Stephano Style Roaches - Page 39
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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. | ||
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scsnow
Slovenia515 Posts
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Eiaco
170 Posts
On March 24 2012 07:38 scsnow wrote: naniwa vs drg coming up next @MLG if nani cant do it, noone can. Game 1 - Naniwa demonstrates why Gateway expand is a terrible idea. DRG crushes a pathetic Stalker/Sentry combination with half of his army whilst the other half breaks down the front door. Game 2 - Naniwa Gateway expands again. He is pinned in his base trying to deflect zerglings whilst DRG gets to do whatever the hell he wants. He decides to build roaches and drop banelings on very fragile protoss army. Naniwa survives using perfect forcefields but takes a loss of 14 probes. DRG then expands whilst teching to mutas whilst Naniwa is trying to rebuild and still trapped on 2 bases. Naniwa then perfectly demontates how 1 misclick loses you the game vs zerg as his stalkers get hit by banelings. GG | ||
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eugalp
United States203 Posts
On March 24 2012 08:09 freetgy wrote: i guess gateway expand isn't the solution 8x Any gateway first opening is really bad vs hatch first. | ||
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AnalThermometer
Vatican City State334 Posts
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
Anyway, back to the intricacies of FFE builds. | ||
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
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Eiaco
170 Posts
On March 24 2012 08:32 aZealot wrote: Don't derail the thread, chaps. (It's interesting though that even the FFE or die trying player is exploring other options.) Anyway, back to the intricacies of FFE builds. Yeh, he explored the Gateway/Expand whilst dying slowly option. | ||
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scsnow
Slovenia515 Posts
On March 24 2012 08:34 da_head wrote: im really surprised naniwa attempted to gateway expand. He was quite adamant in the past that ffe was the superior build. Perhaps he's getting desperate (like the rest of us T_T). my thought exactly. also hero lost today pretty hard... he was trying the phoenix upgrade after leenock switched from roaches to mutas, but then he switched back to streams of roaches and more expansions. so sad. | ||
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Yuffie
132 Posts
cheers replays: http://www.mediafire.com/?h8kr6r5lir827m8 | ||
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
But implementing a toss buff will be extremely tricky.. here are a few approaches: buff gateway units-> big nono. could make 4 gate imba, and drastically effects all matchups buff cannons-> could make cannon rushing a little hard to stop, but has interesting implications. makes holding your third easier and possibly open up ffe in pvp and pvt? buff immortals-> a little iffy, as it could drastically alter other matchups, not a good idea buff wp-> eh, it got the buff it needed, cant really see what else it needs buff voidrays-> vrays used to be awesome. now they almost lose to a tier 1, 150 mineral unit. make sense. i think a slight buff could really help out here. buff carriers-> mid game is the issue but carriers do need a buff. interceptors definitely need more armor. and let us micro the fuckin things. buff stalker dmg upgrades?-> i honestly think this is the best improvement. i mean cmon ffs, stalkers only get +1 per upgrade while marauders and roaches both get +2. Stalkers are the shittiest out of the 3 and yet costs the most. If stalkers gets +2, then +2 stalkers with blink could be extremely potent and wouldnt be op i think. Obviously could be adjusted for balance (etc make first level give only +1) i know a few people might think it's a little too early to call imba, but i honestly think we've exchausted almost all of our current strategies. We either need a map pool or unit change. | ||
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RaNgeD
United States730 Posts
Note: I like to refine my builds in single player, so this isn't against anyone, but still, it's pretty realistic of how my game would look if the zerg takes 3 hatch. http://drop.sc/140884 | ||
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Eiaco
170 Posts
On March 24 2012 08:46 da_head wrote: i honestly think the only thing left for us to try is gateway gasless expand, but even that is extremely flimsy to all ins and requires impeccable scouting from the toss, which is luck based. I think we either need to go back to maps where the third is blocked (though wont help too much) or a toss buff. But implementing a toss buff will be extremely tricky.. here are a few approaches: buff gateway units-> big nono. could make 4 gate imba, and drastically effects all matchups buff cannons-> could make cannon rushing a little hard to stop, but has interesting implications. makes holding your third easier and possibly open up ffe in pvp and pvt? buff immortals-> a little iffy, as it could drastically alter other matchups, not a good idea buff wp-> eh, it got the buff it needed, cant really see what else it needs buff voidrays-> vrays used to be awesome. now they almost lose to a tier 1, 150 mineral unit. make sense. i think a slight buff could really help out here. buff carriers-> mid game is the issue but carriers do need a buff. interceptors definitely need more armor. and let us micro the fuckin things. buff stalker dmg upgrades?-> i honestly think this is the best improvement. i mean cmon ffs, stalkers only get +1 per upgrade while marauders and roaches both get +2. Stalkers are the shittiest out of the 3 and yet costs the most. If stalkers gets +2, then +2 stalkers with blink could be extremely potent and wouldnt be op i think. Obviously could be adjusted for balance (etc make first level give only +1) i know a few people might think it's a little too early to call imba, but i honestly think we've exchausted almost all of our current strategies. We either need a map pool or unit change. In my opinion, changing a Protoss unit or structure will make no difference. The problem in PvZ is game design in which Protoss is constantly behind economically with zero map control and slow units whilst the zerg has all map control, a superior economy, fast units that always prevent a 3rd from being taken and backstab as soon as protoss moves out. On top of all that, Zerg has a late game unit combination which is literally unbeatable unless it gets hit by a gimmicky archon toilet (which means the zerg hasn't spread his units out properly). Note - I would never usually call anything unbeatable, but a combination that completely immobilizes the other guys army whilst outranging him by 3-4 and spewing free units whith high DPS (infested terrans) seems pretty unbeatable to me. PvZ seems Zergs to lose at the minute and protoss is almost relient on his opponent making a mistake to have a chance. | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
Note - I would never usually call anything unbeatable, but a combination that completely immobilizes the other guys army whilst outranging him by 3-4 and spewing free units whith high DPS (infested terrans) seems pretty unbeatable to me. You forgot broodlings, which are completely free. In other news, roaches running over every toss at MLG. PS: Not to derail the thread with the imba whine, but why are stalkers more expensive than their counterparts which thrash the living day lights out of them. PPS: Though imo the tosses at MLG are playing v strangely so far. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On March 24 2012 08:35 Eiaco wrote: Yeh, he explored the Gateway/Expand whilst dying slowly option. You may well be right. Either way, let's not derail the thread with that argument (or, for that matter, a balance whine). It's been a great read, thus far, from all the Brotoss. | ||
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
On March 24 2012 09:14 chestnutcc wrote: PS: Not to derail the thread with the imba whine, but why are stalkers more expensive than their counterparts which thrash the living day lights out of them. I've been wondering this since release. The theme in bw was, toss units are more expensive, and more powerful (i.e dragoon). The theme of more expensive has carried over (125/50) yet it's weak as shit. I guess blizz justifies they're cost because of their versatility (6 range shoots up blink), but its honestly not worth it. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
Also, super lategame carrier-archon-mothership is OP, so Zergs have reason to whine too. On March 24 2012 08:57 RaNgeD wrote: Alright so I took some of your advice kcdc, and I had a bit of insight of my own and this is the build that I came up with. It seems quite safe and I like the speed of the 3rd base (7:45~ish) In this replay the only mistake I saw was the fact that I didn't add my twilight on time, so my +2 is just a little late. Let me know what you think, and also if there are some ways to refine the build even more. Note: I like to refine my builds in single player, so this isn't against anyone, but still, it's pretty realistic of how my game would look if the zerg takes 3 hatch. http://drop.sc/140884 Looking forward to checking it out when I have time. Might be a couple days--we'll see. | ||
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Vetrocide
Norway600 Posts
edit ; play a lot of zergs this mlg^^ | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On March 24 2012 09:44 Vetrocide wrote: I'm a zerg player but I hope we get to see MC play a lot of zergs, everyone is saying his PvZ is just sick edit ; play a lot of zergs this mlg^^ That's simply because he is one of the few protoss that understands that the 3 base build is weak against 2 base all in variants - and he has great micro when doing them. | ||
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
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