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On January 16 2012 22:54 bbm wrote:
People complaining about GOMTvT need to remember that, in a hypothetical world where play is perfectly balanced, the amount of terrans will, on average, stay the same amount, regardless of proportion compared to the other races. If there were 31 terrans, and one protoss in the GSL, and everything was balanced and players were equally skilled, then that one protoss would have a 50% chance of advancing through his group, the same as any of the terrans in their group.
To remove terrans from the GSL GOM would have to make conditions inherently unbalanced in favour of zerg and protoss. And no-one wants that (I think).
That was what happen to zergs and tosses. So what is wrong if it does happen to terran?
I am the one who wants more terrans to get out of CodeS so that it will look more fair. If the game was balanced like we all want, then terran should not be winning every gsl. It was pretty painful to watch DRG outplayed MMA and still lost in the final because of maps. It was pretty painful to watch Mc who has top pvt skills and still lost to 111 often.
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Why is there a ":[" for zenio?
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Belgium653 Posts
On January 16 2012 23:01 cutler wrote:
From my point of view...as a Terran Player...i dont get why most Zerg Players are not trying to copy NesTea Style...he is steamrolling through Terran...well at least i think he is crushing Terran pretty hard.
I dont get why people blame GOM for the situation.
No he's not, he gets beaten by MMA and MVP consistently. Only this R32 he defeated MVP in a B03. And those game's he won weren't particulary macro games. I even think his zvt is his worst match-up. The 2 zergs i see atm who can consistently beat a terran that is not MMA or MVP are DRG and Leenock. But even Leenock is making me doubt about that this season.
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On January 16 2012 23:01 cutler wrote:
From my point of view...as a Terran Player...i dont get why most Zerg Players are not trying to copy NesTea Style...he is steamrolling through Terran...well at least i think he is crushing Terran pretty hard.
I dont get why people blame GOM for the situation.
According to TLPD, NesTea has a 53% win rate vs Terran:
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/players/29_NesTea/games/vs/T
A player of his level should be at 70% in each matchup.
In the games vs Mvp he won by defending a marine/scv all in, and then doing a 2base all in himself. Nothing to learn from these games.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49479 Posts
On January 16 2012 23:07 slimbo1 wrote:
Why is there a ":[" for zenio?
why not?
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I predict R16 to be 8 Terrans, 7 protoss, and 3 Z, with P having the highest rate of advancing(90% v. 53%). But it's too early to judge because those games have not happened yet so my prediction or anyone else's might be entirely wrong.
Actually, your prediction is 100% wrong because it is mathematically not possible
Since you said 3Z, it means DRG has to make it through since he is only Z left and we only have 2 Zs so far.
You also have 5 Ps (Puzzle, Brown, JYP, Genuis and Parting) left who ALL have to make it in order for you prediction to be right.
Unfortunately, since DRG, Genius and JYP are in the same group, at least 1 of them will not make it.
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On January 16 2012 23:14 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +I predict R16 to be 8 Terrans, 7 protoss, and 3 Z, with P having the highest rate of advancing(90% v. 53%). But it's too early to judge because those games have not happened yet so my prediction or anyone else's might be entirely wrong. Actually, your prediction is 100% wrong because it is mathematically not possible Since you said 3Z, it means DRG has to make it through since he is only Z left and we only have 2 Zs so far. You also have 5 Ps (Puzzle, Brown, JYP, Genuis and Parting) left who ALL have to make it in order for you prediction to be right. Unfortunately, since DRG, Genius and JYP are in the same group, at least 1 of them will not make it.
more like its wrong because 8 + 7 + 3 = 18..
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On January 16 2012 23:14 BLinD-RawR wrote:why not?
So, "why not?" is the reason for doing so? 
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On January 16 2012 22:32 gh0un wrote:
In order to be safe against that stuff and regain map control zerg gets mutas and their upgrades, get banelings and baneling speed against marines (and/or infestors), all of which are gas intensive leaving them unable to upgrade ground weapons and armor at the same time (they have to delay it and fall behind in upgrades).
For some reason many terrans dont go for double upgrades (even though they are perfectly safe to do so in MOST cases) and therefore dont abuse the fact that zerg has to use gas units in order to counter a mineral unit.
As long as zerg has to use gas units against marines, there is just no way they can keep up in upgrades and i think in the long run every terran will go for fast double upgrades.
pretty zerg-centric view. From a terran perspective (i also play Z sometimes ), who currently play early double ebay :
-marines don't cost only minerals at the begining/mid stage of the game.... you had to upgrade stim/combat, get many reactors, get port/ medivacs ( then upgrades.. ). Lot of gaz.
-If you go for early double e-bay, u had to delay tanks for a long time, and this means :
-- a) Zerg can outright kill you with 2 bases gling/bling all-in. 98% chance of success granted.
-- b) if the opponent makes banelings, you can't really apply frontal pressure for a long windows. So you had to rely on drops/multitask (with is difficult and risky where mutalisk are here, unless you are MMA >< ), or u had to take an early 3rd, witch delay even more tanks production
If think there are 2 proper response from Z :
-double upgrades. Just make 2 mutalisks less, maybe ? and minimal amount of banelings. Then since he can't make a huge push early, fast 4th (and good reaction to drops). Many Zergs just make absurd amount of mutalisk when T army is like 90% of marines ><. Unless you are Idra-god-mod at mutalisk harass, this is an huge waste of gaz. You don't need 40 mutalisks to deal with drops, 15-20 is fine (and then you can make upgrades and transition on infestors faster )
-just go kill him. Absurd amount of banelings. a-move. Win.
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On January 16 2012 23:08 massivez wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 23:01 cutler wrote:
From my point of view...as a Terran Player...i dont get why most Zerg Players are not trying to copy NesTea Style...he is steamrolling through Terran...well at least i think he is crushing Terran pretty hard.
I dont get why people blame GOM for the situation. No he's not, he gets beaten by MMA and MVP consistently. Only this R32 he defeated MVP in a B03. And those game's he won weren't particulary macro games. I even think his zvt is his worst match-up. The 2 zergs i see atm who can consistently beat a terran that is not MMA or MVP are DRG and Leenock. But even Leenock is making me doubt about that this season.
Leenock and DRG are good vs T but not consistent.
I'll post some tlpd stats again:
DongRaeGu: 63% vT
Leenock:___ 55% vT
NesTea:____53% vT
Curious:___ 53% vT
Losira:____ 48% vT
Now let's compare these to Terran's TvZ stats:
IMHappy:__ 80% vZ
MMA:_____ 76% vZ
Mvp:______ 69% vZ
TheStC:___ 69% vZ
Jjakji:_____ 68% vZ
Ganzi:____ 68% vZ
MarineKing: 67% vZ
Keen:_____ 66% vZ
Bomber:___ 65% vZ
Taeja:_____ 65% vZ
These stats are enough to prove that it's very hard to have consistent result as zerg vs terran.
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People complaining about GOMTvT need to remember that, in a hypothetical world where play is perfectly balanced, the amount of terrans will, on average, stay the same amount, regardless of proportion compared to the other races. If there were 31 terrans, and one protoss in the GSL, and everything was balanced and players were equally skilled, then that one protoss would have a 50% chance of advancing through his group, the same as any of the terrans in their group.
Actually, it depends on your assumptions. If we assume the same amount of 'talented' people play each race and players have slightly different skills levels. The protoss in your example should have much better chance than 50%. Why? Because he would be the #1 protoss player in the world and he is against #1 to 31 ranked terran. So except for vs #1 terran, he should have better than 50% win rate.
I think that is the assumption we are basing things on. Why people were hoping the format change would 'balance' numbers was because terrans were termed' 'OP' and then were 'nerfed'. So the zergs and protosses that made it in GSL during the 'OP' period were the top 5-8 of their respective races and terrans were only top 20. So if things were 'balanced', terrans should have lower than 50% win rate.
But again, whether the assumption that the same amount of 'talented' people play each race is another thing which is hard to debate
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United States97274 Posts
+ Show Spoiler +On January 16 2012 14:31 Shellshock1122 wrote:
MMA>Gumiho
Zenio > Yugi
MMA > Zenio
Gumi > Yugi
Gumi > Zenio
yay
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Belgium653 Posts
On January 16 2012 23:22 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 23:08 massivez wrote:On January 16 2012 23:01 cutler wrote:
From my point of view...as a Terran Player...i dont get why most Zerg Players are not trying to copy NesTea Style...he is steamrolling through Terran...well at least i think he is crushing Terran pretty hard.
I dont get why people blame GOM for the situation. No he's not, he gets beaten by MMA and MVP consistently. Only this R32 he defeated MVP in a B03. And those game's he won weren't particulary macro games. I even think his zvt is his worst match-up. The 2 zergs i see atm who can consistently beat a terran that is not MMA or MVP are DRG and Leenock. But even Leenock is making me doubt about that this season. Leenock and DRG are good vs T but not consistent. I'll post some tlpd stats again: DongRaeGu: 63% vT Leenock:___ 55% vT NesTea:____53% vT Curious:___ 53% vT Losira:____ 48% vT Now let's compare these to Terran's TvZ stats: IMHappy:__ 80% vZ MMA:_____ 76% vZ Mvp:______ 69% vZ TheStC:___ 69% vZ Jjakji:_____ 68% vZ Ganzi:____ 68% vZ MarineKing: 67% vZ Keen:_____ 66% vZ Bomber:___ 65% vZ Taeja:_____ 65% vZ These stats are enough to prove that it's very hard to have consistent result as zerg vs terran.
Was too lazy too check on the winrate's, but i gotta say im pretty shocked about this :S.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49479 Posts
On January 16 2012 23:19 slimbo1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 23:14 BLinD-RawR wrote:On January 16 2012 23:07 slimbo1 wrote:
Why is there a ":[" for zenio? why not? So, "why not?" is the reason for doing so?
if you won't elaborate your reasons, then why should I.
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4/4
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On January 16 2012 23:19 slimbo1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 23:14 BLinD-RawR wrote:On January 16 2012 23:07 slimbo1 wrote:
Why is there a ":[" for zenio? why not? So, "why not?" is the reason for doing so?
How about the reason TEAM LIQUID!!!
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Terrans are just too strong, they can go any style and kill zergs with it. They have so many opening attacka, it's so hard as a Zerg to scouts it and stop it hellion/maurader/marine,Banshee/hellion,marine/maurder,mass hellion, marine,tank etc etc etc. Not just that in late games like what happened to Lucky vs MVP with those snipes man so imba kills every late game Zerg unit, Blizzard should be Embarrassed(same with the mothership vortex) on taking so long to nerf it, I mean they did nerf the infestor and the stupid ultralisk splash damage after seeing how imba that was.
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On January 16 2012 23:26 massivez wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 23:22 cyclone25 wrote:On January 16 2012 23:08 massivez wrote:On January 16 2012 23:01 cutler wrote:
From my point of view...as a Terran Player...i dont get why most Zerg Players are not trying to copy NesTea Style...he is steamrolling through Terran...well at least i think he is crushing Terran pretty hard.
I dont get why people blame GOM for the situation. No he's not, he gets beaten by MMA and MVP consistently. Only this R32 he defeated MVP in a B03. And those game's he won weren't particulary macro games. I even think his zvt is his worst match-up. The 2 zergs i see atm who can consistently beat a terran that is not MMA or MVP are DRG and Leenock. But even Leenock is making me doubt about that this season. Leenock and DRG are good vs T but not consistent. I'll post some tlpd stats again: DongRaeGu: 63% vT Leenock:___ 55% vT NesTea:____53% vT Curious:___ 53% vT Losira:____ 48% vT Now let's compare these to Terran's TvZ stats: IMHappy:__ 80% vZ MMA:_____ 76% vZ Mvp:______ 69% vZ TheStC:___ 69% vZ Jjakji:_____ 68% vZ Ganzi:____ 68% vZ MarineKing: 67% vZ Keen:_____ 66% vZ Bomber:___ 65% vZ Taeja:_____ 65% vZ These stats are enough to prove that it's very hard to have consistent result as zerg vs terran. Was too lazy too check on the winrate's, but i gotta say im pretty shocked about this :S.
I dont think these are correct. I checked 5 of them and they are all wrong like Curious and Nestea have better winrates for instance. Not that it means much after all the patches.
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But with Protoss if you can survive the 1-1-1 or any early aggression, the mid game/late game for the toss is just unstoppable with colossus/storms/chargelots (glad tosses are using high templer tech). Which before they never went HT(unless to feedback ghost) tech they just got 6+ colossus and die to the M/M/M/V.
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On January 16 2012 23:46 secretary bird wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 23:26 massivez wrote:On January 16 2012 23:22 cyclone25 wrote:On January 16 2012 23:08 massivez wrote:On January 16 2012 23:01 cutler wrote:
From my point of view...as a Terran Player...i dont get why most Zerg Players are not trying to copy NesTea Style...he is steamrolling through Terran...well at least i think he is crushing Terran pretty hard.
I dont get why people blame GOM for the situation. No he's not, he gets beaten by MMA and MVP consistently. Only this R32 he defeated MVP in a B03. And those game's he won weren't particulary macro games. I even think his zvt is his worst match-up. The 2 zergs i see atm who can consistently beat a terran that is not MMA or MVP are DRG and Leenock. But even Leenock is making me doubt about that this season. Leenock and DRG are good vs T but not consistent. I'll post some tlpd stats again: DongRaeGu: 63% vT Leenock:___ 55% vT NesTea:____53% vT Curious:___ 53% vT Losira:____ 48% vT Now let's compare these to Terran's TvZ stats: IMHappy:__ 80% vZ MMA:_____ 76% vZ Mvp:______ 69% vZ TheStC:___ 69% vZ Jjakji:_____ 68% vZ Ganzi:____ 68% vZ MarineKing: 67% vZ Keen:_____ 66% vZ Bomber:___ 65% vZ Taeja:_____ 65% vZ These stats are enough to prove that it's very hard to have consistent result as zerg vs terran. Was too lazy too check on the winrate's, but i gotta say im pretty shocked about this :S. I dont think these are correct. I checked 5 of them and they are all wrong like Curious and Nestea have better winrates for instance. Not that it means much after all the patches.
Make sure you check the "special events" and "offline events" boxes when you look at the stats. They are accurate.
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EPT
