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On December 17 2011 08:41 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 08:26 jinorazi wrote:On December 17 2011 08:19 Fjodorov wrote:On December 17 2011 08:16 Trsjnica wrote:On December 17 2011 08:12 Longshank wrote:On December 17 2011 08:00 jinorazi wrote:On December 17 2011 06:47 carloselcoco wrote:On December 17 2011 02:19 skipgamer wrote:On December 17 2011 02:10 torso wrote:
I just registered after lurking these forums a long time and as well loyally paying for season after season of GSL. I will not be supporting GOM after this ridiculous & unprofessional way of handling the situation. They will have me back as a viewer if the clean up the mess they themselves have created and apologize to Nani, MLG and to us the viewers of both events.
Shape up GOM, this is not acceptable. Did you read the thread? GOM made a mistake in not announcing their new format and hence the change in their seeding system clearly to the foreign audience. (We have established that they had no ill-intent, nor lied to Naniwa/any parties regarding the lack of a Code S seed.) MLG made a mistake in announcing/informing Naniwa that he had received a Code S seed from his providence performance. (This had a snowball effect of course in the entire community assuming he had.)What is unclear is who made the error in communication between the companies, and is the only thing up for dispute. Either way, this comes down to a simple error and simple mistakes and is not worth getting so worked up over. What are you smoking dude?! The agreement between GOM and MLG included Providence and Naniwa won the Code S spot fair and straight. MLG did nothing wrong there! GOM disregarded the agreement when they decided not to give one Code S spot to Naniwa. Naniwa probably would have gotten his code s seed regardless of rule change. what took it away was his action, not gom's change in rule which would actually benefit everyone more. the rule change would have cost little to no negative impact, the issue is its ambiguous announcement. if he didn't probe rush, none of this shitstorm would have happened because the new rule and format still had room for those that were proposed through mlg. Probably yes but not for certain, which is kinda the point. Mr Chae could for all we know have decided to invite some other player. If Naniwa hadn't messed up there would still have been no guarantee that he would been invited for Code S, and that is pure bullshit. So, you're now getting outraged over something that *could have* happened, but didn't? That seems unreasonable. I agree we would be outraged if Naniwa hadn't messed up and Mr. Chae hadn't invited him regardless. But that did not happen. But why would you thou? I mean if naniwa hadnt fucked up then GOM wouldnt have to come out and say that he was "a canditate on their list". And since GOM claim nobody won code s at MLG providence they wouldnt suspect anyone to claim that Naniwa had earned it, right? you're right, there would be outrage if naniwa didn't get his code s spot if blizzcon fiasco didn't happen. getting mad about that is getting mad from a speculation. But according to your logic nobody would or should be outraged if naniwa did not mess up at blizz cup but still did not get code s spot. Naniwa never earnd code s at mlg, right? GOM never revealed that Naniwa was on their famous "canditate list" until blizz cup shitstorm happened.
No, people would be outraged because they believed Naniwa deserved a spot, and had done nothing worthy of punishment.
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On December 17 2011 08:41 Blondinbengt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 08:34 jinorazi wrote:On December 17 2011 08:29 Blondinbengt wrote:On December 17 2011 08:26 Trsjnica wrote:On December 17 2011 08:22 Fjodorov wrote:On December 17 2011 08:19 Trsjnica wrote:On December 17 2011 08:16 Fjodorov wrote:On December 17 2011 08:00 jinorazi wrote:On December 17 2011 06:47 carloselcoco wrote:On December 17 2011 02:19 skipgamer wrote:
[quote]
Did you read the thread?
GOM made a mistake in not announcing their new format and hence the change in their seeding system clearly to the foreign audience. (We have established that they had no ill-intent, nor lied to Naniwa/any parties regarding the lack of a Code S seed.)
MLG made a mistake in announcing/informing Naniwa that he had received a Code S seed from his providence performance. (This had a snowball effect of course in the entire community assuming he had.)
What is unclear is who made the error in communication between the companies, and is the only thing up for dispute.
Either way, this comes down to a simple error and simple mistakes and is not worth getting so worked up over. What are you smoking dude?! The agreement between GOM and MLG included Providence and Naniwa won the Code S spot fair and straight. MLG did nothing wrong there! GOM disregarded the agreement when they decided not to give one Code S spot to Naniwa. Naniwa probably would have gotten his code s seed regardless of rule change. what took it away was his action, not gom's change in rule which would actually benefit everyone more. the rule change would have cost little to no negative impact, the issue is its ambiguous announcement. if he didn't probe rush, none of this shitstorm would have happened because the new rule and format still had room for those that were proposed through mlg. again, people are making connections with rule change and naniwa when there isn't any, therefore making this bigger than what it actually is. Can you forget about Naniwa for a second? This is not about him anymore. Its about teams and players paying their tickets to get to a tournament to fight for a prize that doesnt exist. Its about tournament organisers advertising prizes, pretty much handing it to you when you win and then taking it back a month later because of "language barrier". Its about players (again, forget about naniwa, could be anyone who attended mlg), who invest so much time in their careers as gamers and get fooled by "misscommunication". To be fair, he had to go to Korea anyhow to go to GSL Blizzard Cup. It isn't as if he flew out there on a mere promise, and they told him, "Sorry, we don't want you." Come on, i told you to forget about NANIWA! It could be anyone caught in this web of misscommunication. Im pretty sure there were players attending MLG providence besides naniwa, whos main purpose was to contend for Code S. Anyone "could" have been, if we make up facts that did not happen, and a situation that does not exist. However, no one was. No harm, no foul. That's a pretty bad way of looking at it though. I mean, by that logic shouldn't drivers who were caught speeding on camera be allowed to walk because they didn't hurt no one? Not saying that GOM broke any laws here, but I think there's a lot more to a situation than, was anyone hurt this time? the logic would say, speeder is getting a ticket for speeding, will not be sentenced for potential man slaughter. no one was hurt with new rule/format. and i agree gom takes blame in ambiguity, but its hardly anything to make a fuss about like naniwa's action. The reason speeding is against the law is because you are increasing the chance of hurting other people so if no person was hurt then why should a speeder get a ticket?
If you have problems with speeding laws, I assure you that you are not alone.
That doesn't seem related to this thread though.
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This topic will highlight a different point of view and aim to challenge ESPORT fans over questionable issues and view them under a different light. This topics aim is to consider 'all possibilities' and open your mind to the little things that do matter to some people.
This topic is purely speculation in regards to what I consider be be 'Less than Fair Play' when referring to Naniwa & GomTV. It also addresses the competitive nature between GOMTV and MLG over Starcraft 2 viewership.
On December 15 2011 06:33 GOMTV wrote:
There seems to be great confusion regarding an incident involving NaNiWa that took place on the second day of Blizzard Cup. We would like to clarify this matter and hereby announce our official stance towards the incident.
GOMTV announces a great confusion, but this may simply not be the case. Please do not be influenced by GOMTV's comments or responses as they may be simply untrue and attempt to take advantage of the community's good will.
As an organisation, when you announce a decision you provide reasoning behind the decision the moment it bcomes public. What you are seeing here, is a more calculated and knifing approach designed to:
Analyse the community's response before deciding upon an announcement which publicly benefits the current position of GOMTV which aims to caters for the majority of the community in a way in which GOM walks out the winner and community leader
Do not be fooled.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is the reasons behind the process in which GOMTV 'REMOVES & REPLACES Naniwa':
A) Maintain GOMTV's 'presence or stature' of being the worldwide premier tournament.
Did anyone ever stop to wonder as to why the MLG & GSL transfer ever stopped? Something that benefits both organisations would not stop.. Step back for a moment and keep an open mind.
The majority of viewers GOMTV is aiming to attract is the worldwide market, however GOMTV did not think very strategically when they agreed to player transfers with MLG. If any of you have noticed the amount of viewers watching MLG & GOMTV, you will notice that MLG has only increased its viewership and GOMTV's viewership has declined. There are some legitimate reasons behind this:
1) By agreeing to the player transfer, MLG is able to take 'the very best korean players' and the 'very best foreigners' all at once. The barriers of playing in the United States are far less than the barriers in participating in GSL. This means that you will recieve a much greater and broader range of players worldwide competing, which in turn creates much greater value for the viewer. Additionally, the entire event is cast in ENGLISH! A popular language no doubt!
2) Once upon a time, GSL was 'THE TOURNAMENT'.. And why do you think this is? Very simply, the best of the best remained in Korea and this meant that to see the greatest game play, you would have to tune in to the GSL during an awkward time of day. This gave it 'prestige, desirability and a competitive advantage in having all the best players and talent delivering high quality starcraft 2 gaming'.
HOWEVER!
The market leaders are changing! Yes, MLG is now closer to the market leader in providing high quality value and entertainment for Esports Viewers. For some time now, MLG has been stealing marketshare of the starcraft 2 viewership numbers. Why watch 'all' the koreans when you can just watch the very best vs players who you know locally, directly or someone from your own region of the world? I can keep talking about this, but lets get down to business.
This move by GOMTV is a POWER BASED MOVE and has MOTIVES behind it. What this move is:
- A slap in the face to MLG, "We do not have to honour our agreement with you.." And this publicity helps us to achieve this.. It means less top koreans participating in your events and more focus on our events".
- Sends a message that GOTMV will not put up with Naniwa but MLG/other tournaments will, hence attempting to 'establish itself as the premier tournament or maintain higher status within the minds of its market' We are above dealing with conflict mentality.
- Cultural Discrimination: Both Idra and Sen have been affiliated with Korea for some time now, and Naniwa has not. Naniwa broke NO RULES, if GOMTV were not interested in playing this move to their advantage, they would simply modify the rules for future events. GOMTV is telling us all, that WHEN THEY FEEEEEL like it, they will disadvantage you. In many countries & regions around the world, the rules are what matter, and if the rules do not suffice, you change them.
Korean e-sports fans generally share this understanding of the term 'professional athlete’ or in this case 'progamer', and might be less likely to tolerate a deviation from these core values compared to overseas communities.
According to this quote, Naniwa is being discriminated against based upon 'Korean Values' rather than any legitimate issue. If Naniwa wants to probe rush, then its his strategic choice to do so. He even GGd, infact someone who just 'leaves the game' is more or less likely worse. Additionally, how about all those players who 'don't leave the game when its over'... What Naniwa did may be frowned upon, but it was clearly within his right to do what he did, and GOMTV is just using this 'legitimate match' to further there own agenda and discriminate against Naniwa.
Do not be fooled by GOM's true motives, they are an organisation and are out to profit in both the short term and the long term. It can be very easy to just go along and say 'I support GOM and back them 100%'. Yes they may support community interests, but this does not mean you should not consider all possibilities on the table, GOM will be adapting a strategy against MLG as a competitor in 2012, wait and see.
Player Rights have not been considered in this topic, and Naniwa would have a 'Strong Legal Standing' in regards to this incident should it go to court.
NaNiWa has however purposefully not tried his best and shown this in a disrespectful manner. This was not only disappointing for his opponent NesTea and the GSL, but also for the many fans who had anticipated a great match. This behavior does not match with the definition of a progamer as laid out in the paragraph above.
Once again, Naniwa is being discriminated against by Korean culture or Corporate power play. I QUOTE: 'as laid out in the paragraph above'. If it DOES NOT MATCH with your paragraph above, then please feel free to publicize this, rather than defining your own principles as you go along. Whatever suits your needs is your definition according to how you have handled this. I am deeply disappointed in GOM for the way it is acting.
Make no mistake that there is a strategic purpose behind each of GOM's responses, you just need to be aware of them.
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On December 17 2011 08:44 Azz wrote:
This topic will highlight a different point of view and aim to challenge ESPORT fans over questionable issues and view them under a different light. This topics aim is to consider 'all possibilities' and open your mind to the little things that do matter to some people.
This topic is purely speculation in regards to what I consider be be 'Less than Fair Play' when referring to Naniwa & GomTV. It also addresses the competitive nature between GOMTV and MLG over Starcraft 2 viewership.
On December 15 2011 06:33 GOMTV wrote:
There seems to be great confusion regarding an incident involving NaNiWa that took place on the second day of Blizzard Cup. We would like to clarify this matter and hereby announce our official stance towards the incident.
GOMTV announces a great confusion, but this may simply not be the case. Please do not be influenced by GOMTV's comments or responses as they may be simply untrue and attempt to take advantage of the community's good will.
As an organisation, when you announce a decision you provide reasoning behind the decision the moment it bcomes public. What you are seeing here, is a more calculated and knifing approach designed to:
Analyse the community's response before deciding upon an announcement which publicly benefits the current position of GOMTV which aims to caters for the majority of the community in a way in which GOM walks out the winner and community leader
Do not be fooled.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is the reasons behind the process in which GOMTV 'REMOVES & REPLACES Naniwa':
A) Maintain GOMTV's 'presence or stature' of being the worldwide premier tournament.
Did anyone ever stop to wonder as to why the MLG & GSL transfer ever stopped? Something that benefits both organisations would not stop.. Step back for a moment and keep an open mind.
The majority of viewers GOMTV is aiming to attract is the worldwide market, however GOMTV did not think very strategically when they agreed to player transfers with MLG. If any of you have noticed the amount of viewers watching MLG & GOMTV, you will notice that MLG has only increased its viewership and GOMTV's viewership has declined. There are some legitimate reasons behind this:
1) By agreeing to the player transfer, MLG is able to take 'the very best korean players' and the 'very best foreigners' all at once. The barriers of playing in the United States are far less than the barriers in participating in GSL. This means that you will recieve a much greater and broader range of players worldwide competing, which in turn creates much greater value for the viewer. Additionally, the entire event is cast in ENGLISH! A popular language no doubt!
2) Once upon a time, GSL was 'THE TOURNAMENT'.. And why do you think this is? Very simply, the best of the best remained in Korea and this meant that to see the greatest game play, you would have to tune in to the GSL during an awkward time of day. This gave it 'prestige, desirability and a competitive advantage in having all the best players and talent delivering high quality starcraft 2 gaming'.
HOWEVER!
The market leaders are changing! Yes, MLG is now closer to the market leader in providing high quality value and entertainment for Esports Viewers. For some time now, MLG has been stealing marketshare of the starcraft 2 viewership numbers. Why watch 'all' the koreans when you can just watch the very best vs players who you know locally, directly or someone from your own region of the world? I can keep talking about this, but lets get down to business.
This move by GOMTV is a POWER BASED MOVE and has MOTIVES behind it. What this move is:
- A slap in the face to MLG, "We do not have to honour our agreement with you.." And this publicity helps us to achieve this.. It means less top koreans participating in your events and more focus on our events".
- Sends a message that GOTMV will not put up with Naniwa but MLG/other tournaments will, hence attempting to 'establish itself as the premier tournament or maintain higher status within the minds of its market' We are above dealing with conflict mentality.
- Cultural Discrimination: Both Idra and Sen have been affiliated with Korea for some time now, and Naniwa has not. Naniwa broke NO RULES, if GOMTV were not interested in playing this move to their advantage, they would simply modify the rules for future events. GOMTV is telling us all, that WHEN THEY FEEEEEL like it, they will disadvantage you. In many countries & regions around the world, the rules are what matter, and if the rules do not suffice, you change them.
Korean e-sports fans generally share this understanding of the term 'professional athlete’ or in this case 'progamer', and might be less likely to tolerate a deviation from these core values compared to overseas communities.
According to this quote, Naniwa is being discriminated against based upon 'Korean Values' rather than any legitimate issue. If Naniwa wants to probe rush, then its his strategic choice to do so. He even GGd, infact someone who just 'leaves the game' is more or less likely worse. Additionally, how about all those players who 'don't leave the game when its over'... What Naniwa did may be frowned upon, but it was clearly within his right to do what he did, and GOMTV is just using this 'legitimate match' to further there own agenda and discriminate against Naniwa.
Do not be fooled by GOM's true motives, they are an organisation and are out to profit in both the short term and the long term. It can be very easy to just go along and say 'I support GOM and back them 100%'. Yes they may support community interests, but this does not mean you should not consider all possibilities on the table, GOM will be adapting a strategy against MLG as a competitor in 2012, wait and see.
Player Rights have not been considered in this topic, and Naniwa would have a 'Strong Legal Standing' in regards to this incident should it go to court.
NaNiWa has however purposefully not tried his best and shown this in a disrespectful manner. This was not only disappointing for his opponent NesTea and the GSL, but also for the many fans who had anticipated a great match. This behavior does not match with the definition of a progamer as laid out in the paragraph above.
Once again, Naniwa is being discriminated against by Korean culture or Corporate power play. I QUOTE: 'as laid out in the paragraph above'. If it DOES NOT MATCH with your paragraph above, then please feel free to publicize this, rather than defining your own principles as you go along. Whatever suits your needs is your definition according to how you have handled this. I am deeply disappointed in GOM for the way it is acting.
Make no mistake that there is a strategic purpose behind each of GOM's responses, you just need to be aware of them.
zeitgeist: starcraft bloodwar
those who dont speculate and try to see it from all angles have moved on.
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On December 17 2011 08:45 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 08:38 Sandermatt wrote:On December 17 2011 08:26 jinorazi wrote:On December 17 2011 08:19 Fjodorov wrote:On December 17 2011 08:16 Trsjnica wrote:On December 17 2011 08:12 Longshank wrote:On December 17 2011 08:00 jinorazi wrote:On December 17 2011 06:47 carloselcoco wrote:On December 17 2011 02:19 skipgamer wrote:On December 17 2011 02:10 torso wrote:
I just registered after lurking these forums a long time and as well loyally paying for season after season of GSL. I will not be supporting GOM after this ridiculous & unprofessional way of handling the situation. They will have me back as a viewer if the clean up the mess they themselves have created and apologize to Nani, MLG and to us the viewers of both events.
Shape up GOM, this is not acceptable. Did you read the thread? GOM made a mistake in not announcing their new format and hence the change in their seeding system clearly to the foreign audience. (We have established that they had no ill-intent, nor lied to Naniwa/any parties regarding the lack of a Code S seed.) MLG made a mistake in announcing/informing Naniwa that he had received a Code S seed from his providence performance. (This had a snowball effect of course in the entire community assuming he had.)What is unclear is who made the error in communication between the companies, and is the only thing up for dispute. Either way, this comes down to a simple error and simple mistakes and is not worth getting so worked up over. What are you smoking dude?! The agreement between GOM and MLG included Providence and Naniwa won the Code S spot fair and straight. MLG did nothing wrong there! GOM disregarded the agreement when they decided not to give one Code S spot to Naniwa. Naniwa probably would have gotten his code s seed regardless of rule change. what took it away was his action, not gom's change in rule which would actually benefit everyone more. the rule change would have cost little to no negative impact, the issue is its ambiguous announcement. if he didn't probe rush, none of this shitstorm would have happened because the new rule and format still had room for those that were proposed through mlg. Probably yes but not for certain, which is kinda the point. Mr Chae could for all we know have decided to invite some other player. If Naniwa hadn't messed up there would still have been no guarantee that he would been invited for Code S, and that is pure bullshit. So, you're now getting outraged over something that *could have* happened, but didn't? That seems unreasonable. I agree we would be outraged if Naniwa hadn't messed up and Mr. Chae hadn't invited him regardless. But that did not happen. But why would you thou? I mean if naniwa hadnt fucked up then GOM wouldnt have to come out and say that he was "a canditate on their list". And since GOM claim nobody won code s at MLG providence they wouldnt suspect anyone to claim that Naniwa had earned it, right? you're right, there would be outrage if naniwa didn't get his code s spot if blizzcon fiasco didn't happen. getting mad about that is getting mad from a speculation. If the blizzcon fiaco didn't happen, it wouldn't have been unveiled what GOMTV did. If GOMTV told MLG, that for Providence no Code S seeds would be awarded, but a spot in the Blizzard Cup, then there would be much less outrage. But this way they changed the rules without telling their partners. They hopped it wouldn't turn out what they did, because they would invite Naniwa. But once they declined Naniwa the spot it became known what GOMTV did. they announced it before hand, its been posted as proof through out the threads. you can complain about lack of communication between mlg/gom, gom/foreign community, but the announcement, or the information was out there, before providence. (from what i understand reading previous comments w/ links yesterday)
I have only seen an announcement, that the best two players of providence would go to the blizzard cup. But this was also awarded to the IPL, WCG and I think Dreamhack winner. There was no indication that this replaces the code S spot. I do not speak korean, so I cannot read the korean announcements, but is there an announcement before providence, that states that no code S spot will be awarded for MLG Providence?
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On December 17 2011 08:46 Trsjnica wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 08:41 Fjodorov wrote:On December 17 2011 08:26 jinorazi wrote:On December 17 2011 08:19 Fjodorov wrote:On December 17 2011 08:16 Trsjnica wrote:On December 17 2011 08:12 Longshank wrote:On December 17 2011 08:00 jinorazi wrote:On December 17 2011 06:47 carloselcoco wrote:On December 17 2011 02:19 skipgamer wrote:On December 17 2011 02:10 torso wrote:
I just registered after lurking these forums a long time and as well loyally paying for season after season of GSL. I will not be supporting GOM after this ridiculous & unprofessional way of handling the situation. They will have me back as a viewer if the clean up the mess they themselves have created and apologize to Nani, MLG and to us the viewers of both events.
Shape up GOM, this is not acceptable. Did you read the thread? GOM made a mistake in not announcing their new format and hence the change in their seeding system clearly to the foreign audience. (We have established that they had no ill-intent, nor lied to Naniwa/any parties regarding the lack of a Code S seed.) MLG made a mistake in announcing/informing Naniwa that he had received a Code S seed from his providence performance. (This had a snowball effect of course in the entire community assuming he had.)What is unclear is who made the error in communication between the companies, and is the only thing up for dispute. Either way, this comes down to a simple error and simple mistakes and is not worth getting so worked up over. What are you smoking dude?! The agreement between GOM and MLG included Providence and Naniwa won the Code S spot fair and straight. MLG did nothing wrong there! GOM disregarded the agreement when they decided not to give one Code S spot to Naniwa. Naniwa probably would have gotten his code s seed regardless of rule change. what took it away was his action, not gom's change in rule which would actually benefit everyone more. the rule change would have cost little to no negative impact, the issue is its ambiguous announcement. if he didn't probe rush, none of this shitstorm would have happened because the new rule and format still had room for those that were proposed through mlg. Probably yes but not for certain, which is kinda the point. Mr Chae could for all we know have decided to invite some other player. If Naniwa hadn't messed up there would still have been no guarantee that he would been invited for Code S, and that is pure bullshit. So, you're now getting outraged over something that *could have* happened, but didn't? That seems unreasonable. I agree we would be outraged if Naniwa hadn't messed up and Mr. Chae hadn't invited him regardless. But that did not happen. But why would you thou? I mean if naniwa hadnt fucked up then GOM wouldnt have to come out and say that he was "a canditate on their list". And since GOM claim nobody won code s at MLG providence they wouldnt suspect anyone to claim that Naniwa had earned it, right? you're right, there would be outrage if naniwa didn't get his code s spot if blizzcon fiasco didn't happen. getting mad about that is getting mad from a speculation. But according to your logic nobody would or should be outraged if naniwa did not mess up at blizz cup but still did not get code s spot. Naniwa never earnd code s at mlg, right? GOM never revealed that Naniwa was on their famous "canditate list" until blizz cup shitstorm happened. No, people would be outraged because they believed Naniwa deserved a spot, and had done nothing worthy of punishment.
It wouldnt be punishment since nobody has the spot yet, according to GOM, and GOM can do what they want with their own list. They havent stated which criteria they use to pick the players so no reason to be outraged. They are a company, its business, bla bla bla.
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On December 17 2011 08:47 Trsjnica wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 08:41 Blondinbengt wrote:On December 17 2011 08:34 jinorazi wrote:On December 17 2011 08:29 Blondinbengt wrote:On December 17 2011 08:26 Trsjnica wrote:On December 17 2011 08:22 Fjodorov wrote:On December 17 2011 08:19 Trsjnica wrote:On December 17 2011 08:16 Fjodorov wrote:On December 17 2011 08:00 jinorazi wrote:On December 17 2011 06:47 carloselcoco wrote:
[quote]
What are you smoking dude?!
The agreement between GOM and MLG included Providence and Naniwa won the Code S spot fair and straight. MLG did nothing wrong there! GOM disregarded the agreement when they decided not to give one Code S spot to Naniwa. Naniwa probably would have gotten his code s seed regardless of rule change. what took it away was his action, not gom's change in rule which would actually benefit everyone more. the rule change would have cost little to no negative impact, the issue is its ambiguous announcement. if he didn't probe rush, none of this shitstorm would have happened because the new rule and format still had room for those that were proposed through mlg. again, people are making connections with rule change and naniwa when there isn't any, therefore making this bigger than what it actually is. Can you forget about Naniwa for a second? This is not about him anymore. Its about teams and players paying their tickets to get to a tournament to fight for a prize that doesnt exist. Its about tournament organisers advertising prizes, pretty much handing it to you when you win and then taking it back a month later because of "language barrier". Its about players (again, forget about naniwa, could be anyone who attended mlg), who invest so much time in their careers as gamers and get fooled by "misscommunication". To be fair, he had to go to Korea anyhow to go to GSL Blizzard Cup. It isn't as if he flew out there on a mere promise, and they told him, "Sorry, we don't want you." Come on, i told you to forget about NANIWA! It could be anyone caught in this web of misscommunication. Im pretty sure there were players attending MLG providence besides naniwa, whos main purpose was to contend for Code S. Anyone "could" have been, if we make up facts that did not happen, and a situation that does not exist. However, no one was. No harm, no foul. That's a pretty bad way of looking at it though. I mean, by that logic shouldn't drivers who were caught speeding on camera be allowed to walk because they didn't hurt no one? Not saying that GOM broke any laws here, but I think there's a lot more to a situation than, was anyone hurt this time? the logic would say, speeder is getting a ticket for speeding, will not be sentenced for potential man slaughter. no one was hurt with new rule/format. and i agree gom takes blame in ambiguity, but its hardly anything to make a fuss about like naniwa's action. The reason speeding is against the law is because you are increasing the chance of hurting other people so if no person was hurt then why should a speeder get a ticket? If you have problems with speeding laws, I assure you that you are not alone. That doesn't seem related to this thread though.
It is related though, the reason I brought it up is becaused you argued that ''No harm, no foul'' which simply isn't a good idea, in my opinion, just because you think it worked out in this instance doesn't mean it sets a good precedent.
What a lot of people have a problem with here, including me, hasn't got anything to do with Naniwa specifically, he simply became the catalyst since his situation caused this whole controversy with GOM switching prizes to come to light.
The reason why I have a problem with what GOM did (I'm still waiting for GOM to comment on this whole thing before making any final judgements) is because they basically decided that they're allowed to swap prizes promised to players after the tournament already took place.
Now, there's obviously degrees of this, so for example, changing a Code S spot for a Blizzard Cup spot isn't as bad as cutting X amount of dollars out the prize pool is. But it's still the same thing, you are promising one thing and then deciding on your own to change the promised prize to something else, and GOM may very well have thought that exchanging a Code S spot for a Blizzard Cup spot is a fair trade, but once a prize has been promised for a tournament and that tournament is over you lost your right to make that decision, in my opinion atleast.
The fact that Naniwa would have gotten a Code S spot anyway because of other reasons (that GOM would have chosen him based on his general achievements) doesn't make things any better. Because what that tells me is that there's a possibility that he would not have been chosen. Let's say for instance that there had been another major tournament between MLG Providence and the next Code S season, where Naniwa placed horribly while other foreigners like Idra and Sen took 1st and 2nd place, and through that got chosen for the next Code S season instead of Naniwa.
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Everybody knows this is a punishment on Naniwa, just rest the case plz. Gom will not change their position, they should not candy-coat this at the first place.
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On December 17 2011 09:12 ElephantBaby wrote:
Everybody knows this is a punishment on Naniwa, just rest the case plz. Gom will not change their position, they should not candy-coat this at the first place.
this isnt about naniwa, its about gom switching the prize without telling anyone, which include their "partner", MLG
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On December 17 2011 09:24 flamekin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 09:12 ElephantBaby wrote:
Everybody knows this is a punishment on Naniwa, just rest the case plz. Gom will not change their position, they should not candy-coat this at the first place.
this isnt about naniwa, its about gom switching the prize without telling anyone, which include their "partner", MLG
Everyone in korea knew, that doesn't count as "not telling anyone." If there were articles back in november about how GOM is "considering naniwa for one of their 2 foreign code S seeds for the first 2012 GS" then surely it wasn't a secret like you're stating.
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On December 17 2011 09:24 flamekin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 09:12 ElephantBaby wrote:
Everybody knows this is a punishment on Naniwa, just rest the case plz. Gom will not change their position, they should not candy-coat this at the first place.
this isnt about naniwa, its about gom switching the prize without telling anyone, which include their "partner", MLG
Who cares about Gom and MLG, just 2 evil companies. They can do whatever they want, the one got more power gets the upper hand.
Without MLG, GSL is still good, they can still invite the best foreigners by their standards. Without GSL spot prize, MLG is on the way down.
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I'm Korean. Ive checked "PLAYXP - Korean SC2 Community" and "ThisIsGame - Korean SC2 Webzine" everyday.
But I never knew that Naniwa didnt earn code s seed for MLG.
Why someone think that every Korean(at leat most of korean) knew that? There's only one differece between foreign countries and korea, that is "speculative article" about naniwa's code s seed.
Gom have never announce modified LXP officially for korean in common with foreign countries. Just said "2 international seeds in 2012 gsl". So people in Korea just speculate, speculate, speculate, ....too.
Sorry for my bad English.
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On December 17 2011 09:33 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 09:24 flamekin wrote:On December 17 2011 09:12 ElephantBaby wrote:
Everybody knows this is a punishment on Naniwa, just rest the case plz. Gom will not change their position, they should not candy-coat this at the first place.
this isnt about naniwa, its about gom switching the prize without telling anyone, which include their "partner", MLG Everyone in korea knew, that doesn't count as "not telling anyone." If there were articles back in november about how GOM is "considering naniwa for one of their 2 foreign code S seeds for the first 2012 GS" then surely it wasn't a secret like you're stating.
Just for the sake of clarity I would like to add that the articles (of which I know at least) from November are all after MLG Providence, where Naniwa had been told by MLG that he had earned a Code S seed.
On December 17 2011 09:58 att083 wrote:
I'm Korean. Ive checked "PLAYXP - Korean SC2 Community" and "ThisIsGame - Korean SC2 Webzine" everyday.
But I never knew that Naniwa didnt earn code s seed for MLG.
Why someone think that every Korean(at leat most of korean) knew that? There's only one differece between foreign countries and korea, that is "speculative article" about naniwa's code s seed.
Gom have never announce modified LXP officially for korean in common with foreign countries. Just said "2 international seeds in 2012 gsl". So people in Korea just speculate, speculate, speculate, ....too.
Sorry for my bad English.
Really? Thank you a lot man! You just straightened a lot of question-marks, even if we can't of course take what you say as absolute truth. I don't see why you would lie though (unless you just created that account, made your first post and you're pretending to be Korean, which would be really trollish, but I won't treat you with such skepticism). And if what you say is untrue then at least that should force someone to come and clarify what is actually true.
Thanks again!
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On December 17 2011 08:47 Azz wrote:
This topic will highlight a different point of view and aim to challenge ESPORT fans over questionable issues and view them under a different light. This topics aim is to consider 'all possibilities' and open your mind to the little things that do matter to some people.
This topic is purely speculation in regards to what I consider be be 'Less than Fair Play' when referring to Naniwa & GomTV. It also addresses the competitive nature between GOMTV and MLG over Starcraft 2 viewership.
On December 15 2011 06:33 GOMTV wrote:
There seems to be great confusion regarding an incident involving NaNiWa that took place on the second day of Blizzard Cup. We would like to clarify this matter and hereby announce our official stance towards the incident.
GOMTV announces a great confusion, but this may simply not be the case. Please do not be influenced by GOMTV's comments or responses as they may be simply untrue and attempt to take advantage of the community's good will.
As an organisation, when you announce a decision you provide reasoning behind the decision the moment it bcomes public. What you are seeing here, is a more calculated and knifing approach designed to:
Analyse the community's response before deciding upon an announcement which publicly benefits the current position of GOMTV which aims to caters for the majority of the community in a way in which GOM walks out the winner and community leader
Do not be fooled.
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Here is the reasons behind the process in which GOMTV 'REMOVES & REPLACES Naniwa':
A) Maintain GOMTV's 'presence or stature' of being the worldwide premier tournament.
Did anyone ever stop to wonder as to why the MLG & GSL transfer ever stopped? Something that benefits both organisations would not stop.. Step back for a moment and keep an open mind.
The majority of viewers GOMTV is aiming to attract is the worldwide market, however GOMTV did not think very strategically when they agreed to player transfers with MLG. If any of you have noticed the amount of viewers watching MLG & GOMTV, you will notice that MLG has only increased its viewership and GOMTV's viewership has declined. There are some legitimate reasons behind this:
1) By agreeing to the player transfer, MLG is able to take 'the very best korean players' and the 'very best foreigners' all at once. The barriers of playing in the United States are far less than the barriers in participating in GSL. This means that you will recieve a much greater and broader range of players worldwide competing, which in turn creates much greater value for the viewer. Additionally, the entire event is cast in ENGLISH! A popular language no doubt!
2) Once upon a time, GSL was 'THE TOURNAMENT'.. And why do you think this is? Very simply, the best of the best remained in Korea and this meant that to see the greatest game play, you would have to tune in to the GSL during an awkward time of day. This gave it 'prestige, desirability and a competitive advantage in having all the best players and talent delivering high quality starcraft 2 gaming'.
HOWEVER!
The market leaders are changing! Yes, MLG is now closer to the market leader in providing high quality value and entertainment for Esports Viewers. For some time now, MLG has been stealing marketshare of the starcraft 2 viewership numbers. Why watch 'all' the koreans when you can just watch the very best vs players who you know locally, directly or someone from your own region of the world? I can keep talking about this, but lets get down to business.
This move by GOMTV is a POWER BASED MOVE and has MOTIVES behind it. What this move is:
- A slap in the face to MLG, "We do not have to honour our agreement with you.." And this publicity helps us to achieve this.. It means less top koreans participating in your events and more focus on our events".
- Sends a message that GOTMV will not put up with Naniwa but MLG/other tournaments will, hence attempting to 'establish itself as the premier tournament or maintain higher status within the minds of its market' We are above dealing with conflict mentality.
- Cultural Discrimination: Both Idra and Sen have been affiliated with Korea for some time now, and Naniwa has not. Naniwa broke NO RULES, if GOMTV were not interested in playing this move to their advantage, they would simply modify the rules for future events. GOMTV is telling us all, that WHEN THEY FEEEEEL like it, they will disadvantage you. In many countries & regions around the world, the rules are what matter, and if the rules do not suffice, you change them.
Korean e-sports fans generally share this understanding of the term 'professional athlete’ or in this case 'progamer', and might be less likely to tolerate a deviation from these core values compared to overseas communities.
According to this quote, Naniwa is being discriminated against based upon 'Korean Values' rather than any legitimate issue. If Naniwa wants to probe rush, then its his strategic choice to do so. He even GGd, infact someone who just 'leaves the game' is more or less likely worse. Additionally, how about all those players who 'don't leave the game when its over'... What Naniwa did may be frowned upon, but it was clearly within his right to do what he did, and GOMTV is just using this 'legitimate match' to further there own agenda and discriminate against Naniwa.
Do not be fooled by GOM's true motives, they are an organisation and are out to profit in both the short term and the long term. It can be very easy to just go along and say 'I support GOM and back them 100%'. Yes they may support community interests, but this does not mean you should not consider all possibilities on the table, GOM will be adapting a strategy against MLG as a competitor in 2012, wait and see.
Player Rights have not been considered in this topic, and Naniwa would have a 'Strong Legal Standing' in regards to this incident should it go to court.
NaNiWa has however purposefully not tried his best and shown this in a disrespectful manner. This was not only disappointing for his opponent NesTea and the GSL, but also for the many fans who had anticipated a great match. This behavior does not match with the definition of a progamer as laid out in the paragraph above.
Once again, Naniwa is being discriminated against by Korean culture or Corporate power play. I QUOTE: 'as laid out in the paragraph above'. If it DOES NOT MATCH with your paragraph above, then please feel free to publicize this, rather than defining your own principles as you go along. Whatever suits your needs is your definition according to how you have handled this. I am deeply disappointed in GOM for the way it is acting.
Make no mistake that there is a strategic purpose behind each of GOM's responses, you just need to be aware of them.
wao, .... great read.
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On December 17 2011 09:58 att083 wrote:
I'm Korean. Ive checked "PLAYXP - Korean SC2 Community" and "ThisIsGame - Korean SC2 Webzine" everyday.
But I never knew that Naniwa didnt earn code s seed for MLG.
Why someone think that every Korean(at leat most of korean) knew that? There's only one differece between foreign countries and korea, that is "speculative article" about naniwa's code s seed.
Gom have never announce modified LXP officially for korean in common with foreign countries. Just said "2 international seeds in 2012 gsl". So people in Korea just speculate, speculate, speculate, ....too.
Sorry for my bad English.
Interesting indeed, I am curious who knew about this then.
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On December 17 2011 09:58 att083 wrote:
I'm Korean. Ive checked "PLAYXP - Korean SC2 Community" and "ThisIsGame - Korean SC2 Webzine" everyday.
But I never knew that Naniwa didnt earn code s seed for MLG.
Why someone think that every Korean(at leat most of korean) knew that? There's only one differece between foreign countries and korea, that is "speculative article" about naniwa's code s seed.
Gom have never announce modified LXP officially for korean in common with foreign countries. Just said "2 international seeds in 2012 gsl". So people in Korea just speculate, speculate, speculate, ....too.
Sorry for my bad English.
Everybody should read this bit, this odd fixation with framing any sort of International Sc2 discussion as "us vs them", be it Europe against North America or Korea against practically the rest of the world, is totally arbitrary and potentially damning. Regardless of where one falls when it comes to a judgement of Gom's decision regarding Naniwa, to fall into the all too convenient game of simple national prejudice would be a big mistake.
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In a MLG/GOM divorce, GOM hurts. more. SC2 is just not the hit in South Korea that BW was... The ratings are probably a 10th of BW and the crowd turnouts are awful. The international scene is where the money is at... Bigger sponsors, better merchandise revenue, better streaming revenue, better pay for players, more tournaments (Blizzard should not have signed exclusive broadcasting rights to Korea to GOM) and just more fans. GSL bragged in June that they got 50 million views from foreigners (Sweden coming in #3!)...this is the future of starcraft as a business. Yeah, pro-koreans were grumbling about these awarded code-S spots but I'm sure even Korean fans would prefer to see a diverse player lineup in the matches. Mr. Chae's poor behavior has threatened an otherwise very promising integration between the South Korean SC scene and the rest of the world.
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On December 17 2011 10:07 Fungal Growth wrote:
In a MLG/GOM divorce, GOM hurts. more. SC2 is just not the hit in South Korea that BW was... The ratings are probably a 10th of BW and the crowd turnouts are awful. The international scene is where the money is at... Bigger sponsors, better merchandise revenue, better streaming revenue, better pay for players, more tournaments (Blizzard should not have signed exclusive broadcasting rights to Korea to GOM) and just more fans. GSL bragged in June that they got 50 million views from foreigners (Sweden coming in #3!)...this is the future of starcraft as a business. Yeah, pro-koreans were grumbling about these awarded code-S spots but I'm sure even Korean fans would prefer to see a diverse player lineup in the matches. Mr. Chae's poor behavior has threatened an otherwise very promising integration between the South Korean SC scene and the rest of the world.
Just so you know, MLG is not the only foreigner tournament. In case of bitter divorce, GSL can simply give dreamhack champion the spot. And invite 2 players to code A, nothing will be changed for GSL. Viewers will still find their best foreigners in the tournament. Divorce with MLG doesn't mean divorce with foreigner scene. GSL even has more freedom to expand their foreigner scene penetration.
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On December 17 2011 09:58 att083 wrote:
I'm Korean. Ive checked "PLAYXP - Korean SC2 Community" and "ThisIsGame - Korean SC2 Webzine" everyday.
But I never knew that Naniwa didnt earn code s seed for MLG.
Why someone think that every Korean(at leat most of korean) knew that? There's only one differece between foreign countries and korea, that is "speculative article" about naniwa's code s seed.
Gom have never announce modified LXP officially for korean in common with foreign countries. Just said "2 international seeds in 2012 gsl". So people in Korea just speculate, speculate, speculate, ....too.
Sorry for my bad English.
So, just like I said before. Gom shot its own foot. Should just say it is a punishment to remove his spot, case closed.
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That's kind of interesting. But frankly, i feel like it's run its course.
Let the dust settle, and let's get on with our lives.
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EPT
