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On December 16 2011 05:16 wherebugsgo wrote:
I agree with BC that scum should've had a vet if town got a vet. The drawback is that only two players learn to play scum, but that's not a huge problem IMO, particularly when you have one or maybe even two vets on the town side.
In order for this to be feasible I think perhaps the next newbie or newbie-ish game should have 16 players. Activity is up recently and there were even a lot of new players in the normal game. Personally, I don't actually like newbie games, since I think normals are just better for new players, but they're certainly more popular recently, so they should definitely continue IMO.
The only hurdle I can see with giving both sides a vet is that the town vet is very likely to be shot on night 1. Now, the game has only the scum vet in it until the town gets its shit together and eventually hangs him (which will probably be last of all the scums, as hes the least likely to be caught saying or doing something stupid).
I don't think finding 16 new players would be very difficult, we had lots of people miss out on this game.
I think the main draw of newbie games is that we are scared to completely fuck up a normal game regardless of which side we end up on. I know I'm both simultaneously dreading and eager for my first game as scum. If I'm caught with the day 1 lynch, ill feel really bad, since the day 1 lynch is usually always a mislynch, bar something spectacular.
And ill also echo what others have said: Its a huge time investment, just to not be lynched for lurking. I lost actual sleep over this game, lying there, wondering if i could talk myself out of the hole id dug myself into, or if BKEXE was going to flip town and id feel like an ass for pushing his case (yep!).
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 16 2011 09:23 xtfftc wrote:For those who missed it: Palmar soft-claimed he smurf very early into the game: Show nested quote +If he is scum, he's the first scum I've ever seen actually trying to push the town away from lynching lurkers on day 1. Also, considering that the post I quoted was on Veli who was town, I think that I get to be the first scum Palmar's ever seen actually trying to push the town away from lynching lurkers on day 1™.
I assumed he was talking about previous mafia games; I read through about 4 or 5 mafia threads before I started in this game. Of course in HINDSIGHT it becomes clear that EB was a smurf, but during the game I thought he was just a terrible ragey semi-lurking european. LOL.
On December 16 2011 09:24 Adam4167 wrote:
And ill also echo what others have said: Its a huge time investment, just to not be lynched for lurking. I lost actual sleep over this game, lying there, wondering if i could talk myself out of the hole id dug myself into, or if BKEXE was going to flip town and id feel like an ass for pushing his case (yep!).
Dude! I totally spend nights poring over people's filters looking for slipups. And I was definitely really worried about the BKEXE lynch during the last like 12 hours when he shaped up his posting. Unlike JB who withdrew entirely, BKEXE was legitimately trying to help in his final hours. He was WRONG, but he was trying to help. It was very unnerving.
Sleep, Mafia, Social Life, Academics.
Pick 2.
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On December 16 2011 09:16 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 09:05 xtfftc wrote:On December 16 2011 03:28 Grackaroni wrote:
I figured there was no way that Blue could be scum because mafia would help him post better than that. If the mafia plays as a team, yes. In this game we hardly had a team. Jay didn't listen and was doing his own thing but at least he tried playing, so it's okay. But Blue was lurking and then saying things such as "xtf don't jump on the EY bandwagon" when I was the person who started it in the first place... I think it was somewhat unlucky for mafia team that Hassybaby went afk, then Bluelightz also went afk... and came back to play sub-optimally. It's really tough to sub in for another player especially for someone new who maybe wasn't entirely sure what was going on in the thread (Layabout can tell you how hard it is to pick up two batons at once, since sandshard ended up going afk as well-- I think he deserves some real credit for contributing to the town despite being thrown into the deep end rather harshly). Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 09:07 xtfftc wrote:On December 16 2011 03:55 Grackaroni wrote:
I didn't believe that you were a cop though so I jumped to the conclusion that you were scum.
This was the post that really threw me off.
"As a side note, I have some good news! Our blues are probably Doctor + DT/Watch, because there's no other reason I'd get roleblocked last night. They think I'm DT/Watcher, and as long as they keep roleblocking me our blues are free to do what they want (since they'll probably think I'm bluffing to get them to stop roleblocking me). "
This doesn't really make you look less like a cop, you're practically screaming to scum that you didn't want to be roleblocked.
(if you wanted to attract scum to roleblock you, you didn't have to say anything because they already believed you were a cop.)
It made me think that you wanted people to believe you were a cop, which in a way I guess was accurate. For what it's worth, I didn't particularly care about whether BH was blue or not. He had a good effect on the town's play overall but I didn't feel like killing him on Night 2 or 3 would have changed that much, so I opted to go for others. Killing him on Night 1 would have been better but EB was the priority and there was no way I was going for anyone else. Well, you did spend a couple roleblocks on me which let Veli find you 
I wouldn't call roleblocking the doctor a waste. But it was pure luck, I had no blue reads and just went with you in case you were DT.
And layabout did great, without him Veli's night check on me could have easily been inconsequential.
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I don't see why it is unfair to have a vet smurfing unannounced. Having it announced would give the coaches information that is not game relevant and that is not usually disclosed in usual games. Why make it available in a teaching game? It doesn't really matter if player X is a smurf. As mafia, if you see someone making sense, you shoot them regardless of who they are. Smurfing is not a game element. Players don't need to know if anyone is smurfing. Sure, people usually figure it out over the course of the game, but demanding that the information be announced is pretty much saying "I am uncomfortable with the idea that the players on the opposing team might be good". If you're coaching, you should teach players how to make good plays, not just plays that will work only if the opposing team doesn't have experienced players.
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On December 16 2011 09:25 Blazinghand wrote:
Dude! I totally spend nights poring over people's filters looking for slipups. And I was definitely really worried about the BKEXE lynch during the last like 12 hours when he shaped up his posting. Unlike JB who withdrew entirely, BKEXE was legitimately trying to help in his final hours. He was WRONG, but he was trying to help. It was very unnerving.
Sleep, Mafia, Social Life, Academics.
Pick 2.
I even sat there and thumbed through everyone's filter outside of mafia to get a feel for who they really were. That took about 9 hours. And its exactly what 'confirmed' you as townie for me on the 2nd day. Your posting was just consistent with how you were in other threads (srsly, 3000 posts worth.... I hate you). This is why I was happy to take more of a backseat to you towards the end, I knew you had towns interests at heart (even if you did hang poor Bbyte for nothing ).
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On December 16 2011 09:24 Adam4167 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:16 wherebugsgo wrote:
I agree with BC that scum should've had a vet if town got a vet. The drawback is that only two players learn to play scum, but that's not a huge problem IMO, particularly when you have one or maybe even two vets on the town side.
In order for this to be feasible I think perhaps the next newbie or newbie-ish game should have 16 players. Activity is up recently and there were even a lot of new players in the normal game. Personally, I don't actually like newbie games, since I think normals are just better for new players, but they're certainly more popular recently, so they should definitely continue IMO.
The only hurdle I can see with giving both sides a vet is that the town vet is very likely to be shot on night 1. Now, the game has only the scum vet in it until the town gets its shit together and eventually hangs him (which will probably be last of all the scums, as hes the least likely to be caught saying or doing something stupid).
Town vet dies > instalynch of the other vet since he's obviously mafia.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 16 2011 09:31 Adam4167 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 09:25 Blazinghand wrote:
Dude! I totally spend nights poring over people's filters looking for slipups. And I was definitely really worried about the BKEXE lynch during the last like 12 hours when he shaped up his posting. Unlike JB who withdrew entirely, BKEXE was legitimately trying to help in his final hours. He was WRONG, but he was trying to help. It was very unnerving.
Sleep, Mafia, Social Life, Academics.
Pick 2. I even sat there and thumbed through everyone's filter outside of mafia to get a feel for who they really were. That took about 9 hours. And its exactly what 'confirmed' you as townie for me on the 2nd day. Your posting was just consistent with how you were in other threads (srsly, 3000 posts worth.... I hate you). This is why I was happy to take more of a backseat to you towards the end, I knew you had towns interests at heart (even if you did hang poor Bbyte for nothing ).
Oh man... dude. I've made so many posts here on TL. I've been here for a year (as of today)... probably like 2k of them in Sc2 Strategy just answering questions. That's a lot of hard work to read through all that. I'm honestly impressed.
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On December 16 2011 09:32 xtfftc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 09:24 Adam4167 wrote:On December 16 2011 05:16 wherebugsgo wrote:
I agree with BC that scum should've had a vet if town got a vet. The drawback is that only two players learn to play scum, but that's not a huge problem IMO, particularly when you have one or maybe even two vets on the town side.
In order for this to be feasible I think perhaps the next newbie or newbie-ish game should have 16 players. Activity is up recently and there were even a lot of new players in the normal game. Personally, I don't actually like newbie games, since I think normals are just better for new players, but they're certainly more popular recently, so they should definitely continue IMO.
The only hurdle I can see with giving both sides a vet is that the town vet is very likely to be shot on night 1. Now, the game has only the scum vet in it until the town gets its shit together and eventually hangs him (which will probably be last of all the scums, as hes the least likely to be caught saying or doing something stupid). Town vet dies > instalynch of the other vet since he's obviously mafia.
But we, as town, may not realize who the other vet even is, unless they aren't smurfing. I know I liked EB (mainly because he was making sense and shoving BH back a bit), but I had no clue he was a vet until I read the TL48 thread and Annul outed him as a smurf account.
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On December 16 2011 09:35 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 09:31 Adam4167 wrote:On December 16 2011 09:25 Blazinghand wrote:
Dude! I totally spend nights poring over people's filters looking for slipups. And I was definitely really worried about the BKEXE lynch during the last like 12 hours when he shaped up his posting. Unlike JB who withdrew entirely, BKEXE was legitimately trying to help in his final hours. He was WRONG, but he was trying to help. It was very unnerving.
Sleep, Mafia, Social Life, Academics.
Pick 2. I even sat there and thumbed through everyone's filter outside of mafia to get a feel for who they really were. That took about 9 hours. And its exactly what 'confirmed' you as townie for me on the 2nd day. Your posting was just consistent with how you were in other threads (srsly, 3000 posts worth.... I hate you). This is why I was happy to take more of a backseat to you towards the end, I knew you had towns interests at heart (even if you did hang poor Bbyte for nothing ). Oh man... dude. I've made so many posts here on TL. I've been here for a year (as of today)... probably like 2k of them in Sc2 Strategy just answering questions. That's a lot of hard work to read through all that. I'm honestly impressed.
Yeah, I feel like I know how to play Terran now.
Not that id ever want to... dirty OP shit
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 16 2011 09:46 Adam4167 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 09:35 Blazinghand wrote:On December 16 2011 09:31 Adam4167 wrote:On December 16 2011 09:25 Blazinghand wrote:
Dude! I totally spend nights poring over people's filters looking for slipups. And I was definitely really worried about the BKEXE lynch during the last like 12 hours when he shaped up his posting. Unlike JB who withdrew entirely, BKEXE was legitimately trying to help in his final hours. He was WRONG, but he was trying to help. It was very unnerving.
Sleep, Mafia, Social Life, Academics.
Pick 2. I even sat there and thumbed through everyone's filter outside of mafia to get a feel for who they really were. That took about 9 hours. And its exactly what 'confirmed' you as townie for me on the 2nd day. Your posting was just consistent with how you were in other threads (srsly, 3000 posts worth.... I hate you). This is why I was happy to take more of a backseat to you towards the end, I knew you had towns interests at heart (even if you did hang poor Bbyte for nothing ). Oh man... dude. I've made so many posts here on TL. I've been here for a year (as of today)... probably like 2k of them in Sc2 Strategy just answering questions. That's a lot of hard work to read through all that. I'm honestly impressed. Yeah, I feel like I know how to play Terran now. Not that id ever want to... dirty OP shit
Man you've got a sweet scv as your profile pic! Change it to your real race so you can be an op probe or imba drone.
On December 16 2011 09:44 Adam4167 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 09:32 xtfftc wrote:On December 16 2011 09:24 Adam4167 wrote:On December 16 2011 05:16 wherebugsgo wrote:
I agree with BC that scum should've had a vet if town got a vet. The drawback is that only two players learn to play scum, but that's not a huge problem IMO, particularly when you have one or maybe even two vets on the town side.
In order for this to be feasible I think perhaps the next newbie or newbie-ish game should have 16 players. Activity is up recently and there were even a lot of new players in the normal game. Personally, I don't actually like newbie games, since I think normals are just better for new players, but they're certainly more popular recently, so they should definitely continue IMO.
The only hurdle I can see with giving both sides a vet is that the town vet is very likely to be shot on night 1. Now, the game has only the scum vet in it until the town gets its shit together and eventually hangs him (which will probably be last of all the scums, as hes the least likely to be caught saying or doing something stupid). Town vet dies > instalynch of the other vet since he's obviously mafia. But we, as town, may not realize who the other vet even is, unless they aren't smurfing. I know I liked EB (mainly because he was making sense and shoving BH back a bit), but I had no clue he was a vet until I read the TL48 thread and Annul outed him as a smurf account.
So I was in #TLMafia the other day and Palmar was like "blah blah why did you vote me in that game" and I was like "wuhh" and he was like "yeah man you were wrong" and I was so confused then he was like "I'm EB" and I was like "oh.... oh. that make sense now"
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On December 16 2011 09:31 Incognito wrote:
I don't see why it is unfair to have a vet smurfing unannounced. Having it announced would give the coaches information that is not game relevant and that is not usually disclosed in usual games. Why make it available in a teaching game? It doesn't really matter if player X is a smurf. As mafia, if you see someone making sense, you shoot them regardless of who they are. Smurfing is not a game element. Players don't need to know if anyone is smurfing. Sure, people usually figure it out over the course of the game, but demanding that the information be announced is pretty much saying "I am uncomfortable with the idea that the players on the opposing team might be good". If you're coaching, you should teach players how to make good plays, not just plays that will work only if the opposing team doesn't have experienced players.
as this is the second game I have coached where players have smurfed I strongly disagree.
Mafia team is at a serious disadvantage of an experienced player smurfing. Someone can adjust their play slightly to avoid being noticed as a smurf then bust out when they have in a setup like this 2 or 3 of the mafia caught and analyze them to death leaving near no chance for them to survive. A coach can help them make the right calls, but in the case of this game I was asked very few questions via my players and made generalized comments via the QT instead.
Not making use of a coach is a players decision, but being punished for it by being lamed by a smurfing vet is incredibly dirty and just wrong as players expect to be playing on equal grounds, not ones skewed in favor for one side. If its a larger game without coaches it is fine to have a vet smurf into a newbie game to help, but when its a small setup with coaches already it gives too much help for the town, which is why the mafia should be getting a smurfing vet as well to even it out.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I think that's a fair case against vets smurfing in general.
I'm not sure, though, that EB really helped the town a huge amount. Not to bag on palmar but basically he disagreed with me a bunch, flipped out, made some unsubstantiated (if correct) remarks, then got gunned down like a punk.
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On December 16 2011 10:02 Blazinghand wrote:
I think that's a fair case against vets smurfing in general.
I'm not sure, though, that EB really helped the town a huge amount. Not to bag on palmar but basically he disagreed with me a bunch, flipped out, made some unsubstantiated (if correct) remarks, then got gunned down like a punk.
issue is, had he been able to remain alive he would have done a ton. It doesn't help the only reason I spotted him was his retarded post in the other game lol
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 16 2011 10:04 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 10:02 Blazinghand wrote:
I think that's a fair case against vets smurfing in general.
I'm not sure, though, that EB really helped the town a huge amount. Not to bag on palmar but basically he disagreed with me a bunch, flipped out, made some unsubstantiated (if correct) remarks, then got gunned down like a punk. issue is, had he been able to remain alive he would have done a ton. It doesn't help the only reason I spotted him was his retarded post in the other game lol
that's true. this might sound dumb, but maybe the smurfs should have a goal of being killed night 1? Like, identifying themselves as town, being a good player, then trying to get shot like a punk?
EDIT: of course, this might also caused them to get healed by a medic, etc, which would only worsen the problem.
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I derp when you least expect it, bitch.
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On December 16 2011 10:05 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 10:04 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On December 16 2011 10:02 Blazinghand wrote:
I think that's a fair case against vets smurfing in general.
I'm not sure, though, that EB really helped the town a huge amount. Not to bag on palmar but basically he disagreed with me a bunch, flipped out, made some unsubstantiated (if correct) remarks, then got gunned down like a punk. issue is, had he been able to remain alive he would have done a ton. It doesn't help the only reason I spotted him was his retarded post in the other game lol that's true. this might sound dumb, but maybe the smurfs should have a goal of being killed night 1? Like, identifying themselves as town, being a good player, then trying to get shot like a punk?
potentially. We have had games in the past (much larger than this) where vets smurfed and tried to stay alive to be a voice of reason but not overpowering the thread to help people learn. IMO coaching is far more viable than a smurfing vet as people tend to listen to the advice of a coach over the play of a smurf. Most people typically learn by doing rather than seeing someone else do (or else the games that have been previous played that are insanely well played would constantly serve as an improving point for players).
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On December 16 2011 10:05 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 10:04 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On December 16 2011 10:02 Blazinghand wrote:
I think that's a fair case against vets smurfing in general.
I'm not sure, though, that EB really helped the town a huge amount. Not to bag on palmar but basically he disagreed with me a bunch, flipped out, made some unsubstantiated (if correct) remarks, then got gunned down like a punk. issue is, had he been able to remain alive he would have done a ton. It doesn't help the only reason I spotted him was his retarded post in the other game lol that's true. this might sound dumb, but maybe the smurfs should have a goal of being killed night 1? Like, identifying themselves as town, being a good player, then trying to get shot like a punk? EDIT: of course, this might also caused them to get healed by a medic, etc, which would only worsen the problem.
I tried exactly that, if you read the pm I sent zona when I suggested doing this, I even mentioned I'd probably get myself shot night 1. Just help get the ball rolling.
Maybe we should make any "vet smurfs" macho townies? (cannot be protected by docs). They aren't allowed to claim it, and it solves the issue really. I'm not that good at mafia, I'm pretty awesome, but it was not my skill that allowed me to get the mafia on day one, it was the solid play of this town.
I'll comment more in the morning. I'm really tired.
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Hi, Probulous here and I have been lurking this game since the start...
First off well done town 
Secondly this has been an awesome game to watch/read/follow/whatever. BH did a great job up front and the rest of you guys stood up when asked. It was pretty clear that short of something drastic happening you guys were on track.
Does anyone know if there are plans for another newbie game? Everything in the list seems normal.
Finally, whilst I didn't play in this one if you want an outside opinion on vets smurfing, it seems that vets should just act as in game coaches. Maybe push a single read and then play it safe? From my read it seems Palmar pulled off the perfect play for a vet. Add some balance to the town arguments, push some reads and then die. If this could be structured in all new newbie games, should work well.
Congrats again!
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On December 16 2011 10:02 Blazinghand wrote:
I think that's a fair case against vets smurfing in general.
I'm not sure, though, that EB really helped the town a huge amount. Not to bag on palmar but basically he disagreed with me a bunch, flipped out, made some unsubstantiated (if correct) remarks, then got gunned down like a punk.
Just having him in the game meant that he had to die night 1. So we couldn't pick a lynch that would accomodate our strategy - we had to kill him no matter what.
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On December 16 2011 09:13 xtfftc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:16 wherebugsgo wrote:
This game was a good example of what happens when townies do what they're supposed to do. Standard scum play on TL is terrible, and it's because really no one knows what to do as scum. However, scum often still win (as in the last newbie game and in every normal game I've ever played in) by doing nothing because towns are worse. While town did well, you seem to forget that me and Jay were pretty active. It wasn't particularly good but we weren't doing the standard lurking play lazy maifa goes for, which made it much easier for town than half-lurking would have done.
I didn't forget anything.
You being active doesn't change the fact that scum play on TL is generally terrible, since scum can be active and still be terrible. Activity has a very low correlation with quality of play.
"Standard" scum play on TL isn't necessary lurking (that's just bad play in general, regardless of alignment. You see townies do it all the time here). "Standard" scum play on TL is not knowing what to do and looking like you don't know what you're doing, then relying on town to kill themselves.
This has happened in almost every scum victory that I can think of in the past 3 months.
+ Show Spoiler +For what it's worth, you can look at XLVIII for evidence of the assertion that activity doesn't correlate with quality.
XLVIII is not over yet, but it's almost over. And the game isn't actually progressing like a real game anymore.
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EPT
